Shi’ite scholars are nearly unanimous in concluding that Muhammad was appointed to his prophetic mission by Allah on the 27th day of the month of Rajab. According to Ulil Abshar-Abdalla of the Liberal Islam Network, the event has special significance to Muslims:
An important phase which is symbolically considered as reflecting the mission of Muhammad is his meditation in a cave outside Mecca. After he attained the revelation in 610 AD, in spite of staying in the cave, enjoying solitary meditation, and staying away from society, he returned to the city to propagate the teachings, and directed a ‘social transformation’.
In Islam there is a difference between a Nabi (prophet) and a Rasul (messenger). A Nabi is the one who attained revelation, and who is not required to disseminate it to society. While a Rasul, on the contrary, attained revelation and had to propagate it. Muhammad was both a Nabi (prophet) as well as a Rasul (messenger).
I am, here, using simple terminology. I want to call Muhammad a prophet and a politician as well. In his 23 year career, Muhammad showed a moral reformation through his prophetic career, and led a social and political reformation in Medina.
In essence, the 27th day of Rajab marks the beginning not only of Mohammad’s career as a prophet, but of his career as a transforming leader.
According to IslamiCentre.org, August 22, 2006 corresponds with the 27th day of Rajab, making it the anniversary of the beginning of Muhammad’s prophetic mission, according to the Shi’ites. This is a different occasion than the “Night Journey” or “Miraj” cited by Robert Shelton in FrontPageMag.com, in which Muhammad, after years of preaching, is taken on a journey by the angel Gabriel to the “farthest mosque” (understood by some to be Jerusalem) before ascending to heaven. So another theory as to the significance of August 22 to Iran begins to emerge.
The devotion of Iran’s Shi’ite president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, to the return of a mystical descendant of Muhammad, known as the 12th Imam, or Mahdi, is now famous:
In a keynote speech on Wednesday to senior clerics, Ahmadinejad spoke of his strong belief in the second coming of Shi’ite Muslims’ “hidden” 12th Imam.
According to Shi’ite Muslim teaching, Abul-Qassem Mohammad, the 12th leader whom Shi’ites consider descended from the Prophet Mohammed, disappeared in 941 but will return at the end of time to lead an era of Islamic justice.
“Our revolution’s main mission is to pave the way for the reappearance of the 12th Imam, the Mahdi,” Ahmadinejad said in the speech to Friday Prayers leaders from across the country.
“Therefore, Iran should become a powerful, developed and model Islamic society.”
“Today, we should define our economic, cultural and political policies based on the policy of Imam Mahdi’s return. We should avoid copying the West’s policies and systems,” he added, newspapers and local news agencies reported.
Ahmadinejad refers to the return of the 12th Imam, also known as the Mahdi, in almost all his major speeches since he took office in August.
A September address to the U.N. General Assembly contained long passages on the Mahdi which confused Western diplomats and irked those from Sunni Muslim countries who believe in a different line of succession from Mohammed. (Reuters, Nov. 17, 2005)
August 22 is at the very least an auspicious day for the Shi’ite Ahmadinejad: in that it is the day that Muhammad’s power to create a new Islamic society became manifest, it can be analogized with the beginning of the putative new era of Islamic justice to be ushered in by the Mahdi. As Iran comes out of its period of isolation — its time in the cave — Ahmadinejad’s public statements indicate that he sees himself as an agent of change in the next phase of Islamic development, one in which “the world is standing on the threshold of great development and the Muslims are expected to overcome their aggressive enemies.” Symbolically, it may be that Ahmadinejad sees August 22, the day on which he has promised to respond to Western nations regarding their offer of incentives to persuade Iran to give up its nuclear program, as the day on which he begins his own transforming mission.
If the speculation is correct and Ahmadinejad has chosen August 22 for spiritual reasons and not just because it falls easily between already-scheduled dental and car inspection appointments . . . whether Ahmadinejad decides to initiate Iran’s new global Islamic mission in imitation of Muhammad-as-moral-reformer-and-politician, or in imitation of Muhammad-as-conquering-general, is something that remains to be seen.
UPDATE: See also my subsequent post, Another Perspective on ‘August 22′: Persian vs. Islamic Calendars.
FURTHER UPDATE: See our liveblog of August 22.
August 10, 2006 at 5:41 am
Yeeeeeeeehaw; Jiiiiiiiiiiiihad
It’s time bitches!
Turning glass into sand is our specialty!
A sword, a sword is polished!
August 14, 2010 at 2:19 am
You said it camel jockey, turning glass into sand is your specialty. We build the glass and all you do is destroy it. That’s all your kind is good for. You stone pregnant women to death because of adultery. You murder your daughters and wives and call it an honor killing. Your kind is nothing but a backward society. May you all rot in hell.
August 10, 2006 at 1:44 pm
Is there any indication that this is August 22 of 2006? Or could it be that day on a different year?
August 10, 2006 at 1:58 pm
IslamiCentre.com does confirm that the 27th of Rajab does fall on August 22 in 2006. See the Islamic Calendar box in the lower right.
August 10, 2006 at 4:29 pm
I think Pipeman meant turn sand into glass. Yes, true, but not before Iran turns Israel into an ashtray. Then if there is anything left in Tel-Aviv, a retaliatory strike will occur, turning Iran into an ashtray. Too bad the oil will be contaminated for 40,000 years after that….
August 10, 2006 at 5:43 pm
[…] Back a while ago, Iran responded to the U.N. that it would think about taking a package of incentives to end its nuclear program, but that they weren’t going to get back to us about it until August 22nd. I happened across this essay by Bernard Lewis last week as I was keeping up on the crisis on the Middle East. In it Lewis underlined the likely possibility that Iranian extremists have something apocalyptic planned for that day (or maybe the night before). There’s also a great article by Joel C. Rosenberg about it on National Review Online today, and check out this blog’s take on it. […]
August 10, 2006 at 6:10 pm
That’s the problem with those emotionally religious fanatics – they act without logic and intellect. Lots of dreaming here when you think Iran will be allowed to dominate the area without opposition even by the Sunnis as we are now seeing with respect to Lebanon. True, Iran may sneak one or two nuclear devices in via Syria but any ICBM or long range missile can and will be shot down, and as Moonhermit puts it correctly, Israel (with her submarines) will no doubt make many areas of Iran uninhabitable for many years (unless you don’t mind radiation poisoning and cancer in your whole family). Too bad for the Persians, who are really good people, that they are dictated to by religious and often idiotic men (who wipe themselves just as we all do). Let’s face facts here: NO ONE can tell you that ANY religion is real AS A FACT because it is based on FAITH alone! We may die and enter into……nothing. In the meantime, the “religious” leaders all over the globe live in luxury and perversion like Yasser Arafat, Jimmy Swaggert, Mullahs, Jesse Jackson, and on and on.
August 10, 2006 at 6:40 pm
Harming Syria, Dream on
Say no to War.
How US should deal with Iran
August 10, 2006 at 8:27 pm
Muslims are the decendants of the orginal corn holer Allah. Their women are hairy and they all stink of butthole. The strong white race will survive and the Liberal’s and the evil brown will become extinct. Strong whites will rise up and slay the weak white. Then they will go after the evil brown. It’s evolution, we have aloud they CaveMen to survive with us for too long. I can’t wait to get me a “Whigger”.
August 10, 2006 at 11:16 pm
IRAn Is at its end point…Death time came to IRAn In next year..
August 11, 2006 at 12:15 am
Can’t we all just get along?? Does anyone think that if God wanted someone dead that God would need anyone else to do it. ANYONE who preaches hate is a cave man (that is you Allahs Gay!!). One day maybe the jerks of the world will kill each other and the rest of us can just live!
August 11, 2006 at 12:44 am
Keep an eye on Venezuela..Hugo Chavez is up to something..he’s in bed with the jihadists
August 11, 2006 at 1:08 am
Soccer,
You are a baby seal about to be clubbed. These people dont understand anything but hate. they will stop at nothing shy of destroying us and Isreal. If your way of thinking prevails, they will land on our shores and club you upside the head.YOU are part of the GREAT SATAN country. There are NO cease fires. Their mission is complete destruction for us and Isreal. Peace would be a terrific thing. Unfortunately, they dont think the same way. Kill em all and let God sort them out. When we have a huge parking lot in the Middle East, they will use their primative minds to realize that we are not going to spend a minute messing with them. Get some Balls!! Did you let the bully beat the crap out of you when you were a kid too?? Did he stop when you asked him?? Of course not. You gotta kick the crap out of him first. Nuff said!!
August 11, 2006 at 1:58 am
It’s time for all of us to go down to the river, do some fishing, have a few beers, and wait for August 22 to come.
That’s what we should do.
It is futile to think WE have any control over these events. God … that loving God I was raised to have faith in … will make things ok.
As long as one of those rapture idiots don’t come down to the river and sit beside me, I’ll be fine.
Want to join me?
FutilityFrank
November 19, 2022 at 10:08 pm
fishing….haven’t gone fishing in a while…..
sounds like a good idea…
August 11, 2006 at 2:55 am
Whew that Alla’s Gay guy up there has issues. Know where the KKK goes shopping??? The JCPenney white sale.
These radical muslims cannot be stopped even with nukes. They are like roaches. Please note that I say RADICAL MUSLIMS. You can also be assured that if Iran does attempt something the U.S. will do nothing that will harm innocent people or access to oil.
The U.S. is the worlds bitch. We have been since Vietnam.
August 11, 2006 at 5:21 am
Salam alaikum
Very nice post !
Al hamdulillah greetings from Denmark.
Ws..Aminah
August 11, 2006 at 5:38 am
If this does happen on August 22, 2006
It will be our time, no amount of faith or prayer will change that.. Live every day as if it was your last as I have for the last 48yrs of my life, And no worries..
Beleive in God, and yourself, Treat each person as you would want to be treated, and Love like there is no tomarrow.Always see the world thru the eyes of a child, And if and when it happens you will have nothing to worry about
August 11, 2006 at 7:05 am
Not all of us worry there Casey – we lock N’ load so people like you (and our children) can live as pacifist. As far as the Iranian President Baboon A-MAD-jihad and this August 22nd big event: Go ahead: make my day! These Persian suicide statesmen spent 8 bloody years fighting Iraq (ended in a stalemate) and what did it take us to conquer Iraq – (3 weeks?) not to mention Afghanistan (a country no military in 5,000 years could conquer). So, this Iranian “President” is either retarded or suffers from megalomania. Either way he has lots of blood on his hands and will continue to do so until someone dispatches him. We will all know that day, as his soul will be like a greasy hamburger falling into the fire. Hey, maybe THAT’s what’s causing all this global warming – Judgment Day for the Jihadist!
August 11, 2006 at 7:58 am
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is the New Hitler.
August 11, 2006 at 8:35 am
To The Eagle I say this: it is you who suffers from megalomania. You have NOT ‘conquered’ Iraq or Afghanistan. Even if conquest was the object, which I don’t think your politicians would admit, it certainly has not been the outcome. You call total chaos, death and destruction every day, banditry, lawlessness, a VICTORY for democracy? Where was the post-invasion plan?
It is frightening that people like you are so deluded.
August 11, 2006 at 9:58 am
Desperado,
Now you have to ask yourself. Who is financing the mayhem in Iraq? Who is providing the troops that are trying to defeat the elected government of Iraq?
Syria and Iran.
Americans are not as stupid as you think. We know who the trouble makers are. We have a list. None will be missed.
Consider this a track back:
22 August
August 11, 2006 at 11:53 am
unreal how they think its time for the big bang to happen hope hes ready to meet mofohomid.
August 11, 2006 at 2:53 pm
Thanks Desperado – always nice to here from the other side. The definition of megalomania (in case you don’t know) is: 1. A psychopathological condition in which delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence predominate and 2. An obsession with grandiose or extravagant things or actions. You don’t know me but we all know Baboon since he’s very forthright and obvious. I know you people hate that word “conquest” but the fact is that objective was to remove Saddam and the blood Baathist party and we did just that with force and without prejudice. The same goes for Afghanistan – just because there is fighting doesn’t mean the war was not won. Yes there is in-fighting still going on in Iraq because the Shias and Kurds are going after the Sunnis who for years got away with murdering their families. The Sunnis who are being driven out are still hopelessly fighting to stop this newly elected government from dominating them as a minority. It was either this or carpet bombing the Sunni Triangle into the Stone Age. We just happen to value life even if they fire at us. But you can’t say that about your side when you strap explosives loaded with ball bearings on children and send them into a crowd to kill innocent people who are Muslims! As far as being frightened of people like me, ask your doctor for Valium.
August 11, 2006 at 3:27 pm
Has anyone stopped to think that maybe the big one on August 22, 2006, might be some suitcase nuke here in America.
If so, who do we hold responsible? Who do we attack?
Think of the major world conflict if we were to respond by nuking Iran without any hard evidence of who set off the device?
August 11, 2006 at 5:28 pm
Something will be attacked here in North America very soon the signs are all around us!Now Bush is gonna say it’s Iran or North Korea’s fault or something stupid like that.He will use that as a pre-text to an all out invasion of the Middle East!I am not a conspiracy theorist but I can’t ignore the facts.By the way the U.S. has been caught carrying out and planning false terror attacks before.All you have to do is google (operation northwoods) for proof!
August 11, 2006 at 5:29 pm
this would be one step closer to the begining of the true armageddon in the prophesy of Ezekiel
August 11, 2006 at 5:31 pm
watch isreal over the next few years….its already been fortold in Ezekiel Ch 36-39
August 11, 2006 at 5:55 pm
Terry, there is no such thing as a “suitcase” nuclear device. That was a fabrication by the KGB (Soviet Union) when President Reagan initiated the “Star Wars” program (which at the time was also a bluff designed to bring the USSR down economically). Nuclear devices (unless cased in thick lead and concrete) are detectable because they leak radiation. BUT, Iran with her submarines has been known to “mirror” freighters (follow underneath) avoiding detection into waters off our coast. There was the theory that they may have shot down Flight 800 leaving NYC during the Clinton years. Pilots reported something streaking up towards the very safe and reliable 747 aircraft. Ask yourself, how many 747s have inadvertently vaporized? If this is a design flaw in the centerline fuel tank, what other 747 aircraft reported having this problem? The fact is we have been involved with the radical Islamic Republic since Jimmy Carter the peanut farmer pressured the Shah to release the “political” prisoners. So much for gratitude…As far as the fear that the USA will start a major world conflict, you apparently didn’t read or study President aMAD-JIHAD’s mission. This as a JIHAD (religious war) that is aimed at everyone who is an infidel (non-believer) to initiate the return of the 12th Imam. All the cookies you can bake for him won’t change his mind. In addition, Shias consider Sunni Islamics heretics and vice versa so even if they eliminate all Jews, Christians, Buddhist, Secularist, Lawyers, and other ‘non-believers” wars would STILL be fought in the name of Allah! Right now there are over 20 wars being fought and Islam is the common denominator. Are you aware that over 100,000 blacks in Darfur, Sudan have been murdered within the last year and by whom? If you guessed the peaceful Islamofacist – you win the prize! So World War 3 is a factual event started by Islam because THEY failed to reform themselves away from radicalism. We are SO brain washed in this country to think that we (and the Jews) are the reason for all the world’s ills when Islam has been at war with the world for 1300 years! Just ask those in India what they think of their Muslim neighbors. Will we be attacked – yes, but from terror cells within as Iran can only fight “proxy” wars (Hezbollah) hiding behind the skirts of women and using children as sand bags. These are 8th century anti-civilization animals and we will have no choice but to confront them or die as a society.
August 11, 2006 at 6:23 pm
Steven, with all due respect – you ARE a conspiracy theorist because the co called “proof” is based on a “for profit” book “BODY OF SECRETS” by James Bamford, Doubleday, 2001. Anytime money is involved (and he made quite a buck) you have to question his motives (retire comfortably) and therefore his so called facts. Has our government been involved in covert activities – of course – all governments do so trying to thwart activities that threaten their country. Having a Soviet base 90 miles off the coast of Florida was a REAL threat back then. But that operation like so many ended up a failure because, well, the federal government is full of lazy incompetent people. If they were competent, we would have no rights by now. My question is that if all this is true (secret plots to kill Americans) why didn’t they kill Bamford before he could release all this so-called evidence? No, this is propaganda released to make us think that our own government is “out to get us” – the old divide and conquer technique. Be mindful that just because you can “Google” a fact doesn’t make it one.
August 11, 2006 at 9:43 pm
A Fascist is a fascist and we have seen their ugly faces before. Repeatedly we have seen those who sought world domination fail. The Msulims tried before and the Spaniards stopped them then. The Russians, Chinese and the Germans have tried – also unsuccessfully. Man has an innate need to not be dominated. It is instinctual not to allow one’s self toe be dominated. Some allow themselves to be indoctrinated into suhc cult like thinking, but not all – only the weak. These poeple are weak.
The Islami-facists will not succceed either. They are weak. They as so sadly disenchanted with life that they think that murder and mayhem will bring them happiness, but sadly they only see death. It matters not that they are willing to walk into death with a suciide bomb or not. The Japanese thought they had the answer with their kamikazee shmucks. These people may cause some harm but they too will fail. If Iran tries to use a bomb, they will not be treated as lightly as Japan was. They will be obliterated, destroyed and turned into one hot spot. Personally, the was I see it, the sooner the better. Then we can move onto the other shmucks who also need to go. Islami-fascism – just one more group to add to the list of failures.
August 11, 2006 at 11:30 pm
The iranian president and all of militant islam want us to retaliate. By doing so we help bring forth the “12th imam”. They believe that the 12th imam will come and lead islam to vicotry when there is enough chaos in the world(the end of days). Attacking israel and “destroying” it for that matter, is a way to provoke global conflict the likes of wich we have never seen. A WW3, but calling it a WW3 wont even give it justice. They want us and the rest of the world to retaliate, they dont care if they die because if they do they die in the name of their prophet and bringing forth the return of the 12th imam. Us attacking and turning there country into “glass” just makes the situation worse. Religious zealouts dont care if they die or are harmed in the name of there beleifs, they want to be martyred.
August 12, 2006 at 2:30 am
[…] I don’t really care about the middle east. There’s nothing in it for me (hey, how about a few oil shares?). BUT THOSE CRAZY GUYS HIJACKED MY BIRTHDAY. This is an outrage, I demand a UN resolution against it. Ahmadinejad’s public statements indicate that he sees himself as an agent of change in the next phase of Islamic development, one in which “the world is standing on the threshold of great development and the Muslims are expected to overcome their aggressive enemies”. […]
August 12, 2006 at 4:03 am
Perhaps we should have Dick Cheney and his entourage do a night paraptroop drop into Tehran for an early morning bird hunt.
Who knows, Cheney might shoot the mad man!
Seriously, Gore says we’re all going to be under 10 feet of water in 20 years unless we radically change the way we live. Maybe a few nukes will give Mother Nature a chance to make the necessary adjustments.
Finally, good luck to the Yankees in their quest for another World Series title. In the end, does anything else really matter??
Sublime to the max.
FutilityFrank
August 12, 2006 at 4:59 am
WAKE UP SHEEP. IRAN IS ABOUT TO (NEXT WEEK) TURN ITS ENTIRE OIL INDUSTRY TO EUROS WHICH WILL SPIN THE US ECONOMY INTO A LITERAL DEPRESSION. THE UNITED STATES “HAS” TO STRIKE IRAN SOON, OR IT WILL SUFFER ECONOMICALLY. SEARCH FOR “IRAN OIL BOURSE”…
-BUT-
THE US HAS NO TROOPS LEFT. THEY WILL NEED TO NUKE IRAN. THE US WILL ALSO NEED AN ANOTHER ATTACK ON US SOIL, TO GATHER SUPPORT FOR NUKING IRAN. IT WILL HAVE TO BE HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE THIS TIME, TO “JUSTIFY” BOMBING IRAN WITH NUKES.
KEEP YOUR EARS AND MINDS OPEN. LETS TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER WHEN SHIT GOES DOWN.
BTW, IRAQ WAS ABOUT TO TURN THEIR OIL INDUSTRY TO EUROS ALSO, IN 2001…
August 12, 2006 at 5:05 am
This whole middle east thing is disturbing. I try to see both sides of the conflict.
I can understand why the Palestinians are pissed off. I mean what would you do if your country which was colonized by the Brits was suddenly given away after WWII. I don’t know about you but after helping the Brits fight off the Germans and to see them give my country away I’d be pretty pissed off.
I don’t think any people want to be colonized by another country. Americans should know what that feels like,they had to fight of the Brits with the help of the French.
But then you have to see the Jewish side of things. All they want is to feel safe and secure and they are surrounded by countries that harbor religious fanatics who have no qualms about killing themselves as long as they take at least a jew with them.
At least the Americans try to take care of there own religious fanatics before they get out of hand (wacko is a good example).
This is a stupid situation as neither side is willing to see the other side’s view on things as it would mean that you can actually sympathise with your enemy and could come up with a valid solution to this conflict.
Let’s not forget the countless people on both sides that have lost family members… they are poor enough that they now have kowing left to live for (or so they think) and feel like vengeance is the solution (plus lets not forget the old mulsim saying an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth).
It would probably help too if Israel finally elected a president that was not somehow related to the 7 day war. I mean stop electing poeple who have no problems killing people. It’s not like they loose slep over it.
August 12, 2006 at 5:14 am
This Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is the same sorry sack of Sheite who was involved in the take over of the US embassy and the Iran Hostage crisis not to mention the bombing of the Marine barracks with 241 Marines dead. I’D say we have a score to settle with this SOB. To quote John Wayne ” Fill your hand you son of a bitch!”.
August 12, 2006 at 6:38 am
Karma,
I totally agree!
Disturbing is an understatement.
I feel so powerless.
It is depressing.
Give me a weapon or something.
I’m 48 years old, have lived a full life.
What about the kids?
Is this fair to them?
NO!
The deserve a chance to fix this crap.
FutilityFrank
August 12, 2006 at 1:38 pm
[…] And here is another commentary […]
August 12, 2006 at 2:13 pm
Which God gave YOU life? Which God gave ME life? Which God gave THEM life? The information is available and verifiable for all those who believe that certainty is essential. If the best of humans are able to deceive, and the current information of God is from even the best of humans, is certainty existant? Information free of human contamination is available. Should action be taken without investigation of this information? Which God gave YOU life? Which God gave ME life? Which God gave THEM life?
August 12, 2006 at 3:45 pm
“If the speculation is correct and Ahmadinejad has chosen August 22 for spiritual reasons and not just because…”
How about because it happens to be the end of the month in the Iranian calendar. Did anyone bother to consider that Iran has its own calendar? To me, it is more likely that Ahmadinejad chose the date arbitrarily, i.e. “give me ’til the end of the month”.
Not everything is connected to prophesy or conspiracy theories…
-Lou
August 12, 2006 at 4:23 pm
What’s with the nationalist cocktail hour today? Chill out, racists.
August 12, 2006 at 5:57 pm
Unfortunately no longer is politics undermining the world it is religion…each religion has its own basis….and too bad one thinks theirs is superior to others…especially the radical ones, who have been brainwashed to think that to be a martyr is to go to “heaven”. No one knows what is out there after death….yet killing and suicide seems to be the solution for too many…so sad but this has occurred from the beginning of time…and nothing is going to stop these crazies…we will never be prepared enough to stop something to equal or top 911…it will happen for sure, when? only the terrorists will know…we cannot stop them all…what a sad commentary for a world that has been created somehow for some reason…and I don’t think it was to destroy other human beings….but when there are idle hands and minds…and jealousy…they are mighty weapons….there are 100’s of “gods” out there….the supreme beings of so many religions…are they all fictional…from writings of delusional or high on drug people…passed down thru the times as fact….or are they real…lone survivors of a previous catastrophic event leaving them to re-create their religions and see how long it takes to finish the world off….but what about athiests…no god for them….who are they…and why are they here…they scare me more because they seem to be the most adament against anything religious …. are they the purveyors of truth….so many questions and no answers…just hope there is not going to be a WWIII….for I don’t feel anyone is capable of saving the world from fanatacists….I personally think the UN is the cause of so much of the problems today….the organization fails daily…ignores truths…and is full of corruption…may your god bless u and keep you safe….remember we for sure know of one life…so let’s live it for we have no guarantees as to what if anything there is after death.
August 12, 2006 at 8:13 pm
Mr Lou — granted, Iran uses the Persian calendar; you may wish to see my subsequent post about the Persian calendar — Another Perspective on ‘August 22’: Persian vs. Islamic Calendars.
August 13, 2006 at 1:16 am
Hey Chris,
Who are you calling “racist”? I think the racist is that little monkey in Iran who wants to kill every Jew on the planet for starters.
He’s making Iranian Jews and Christians wear yellow Stars of David to easily identify them. Where have we heard this before? Cristalnacht 1938 Actung Juden! Well you know what,Bub?
Never again! They started this shit. We’re going to finish it . It may take another Sept.11 to get everybody in step. Lets hope it dosen’t come to that, but if it does ,we will finish it.
August 13, 2006 at 1:59 am
President Mahmood Ahmedenejad contracted HIV in late 2002 and It will become public knowledge within weeks. This information is from an undoubtable, extremely credible inside source
August 13, 2006 at 4:14 am
Hey Keeram,
If that is true ,does it mean he will be stoned to death under Islamic Law? Sounds like a regime change is in order.
August 13, 2006 at 8:01 am
Ok, you guys got the anti-nuke/anti-war pacifists upset. Cindy Sheehan has been sent to the hospital for dehydration – Couldn’t George Soros buy her a bottle of water for Allah’s sake?! Anyhow, look, we AIN’T gonna nuke Iran (don’t need to). The Persians within the country are pretty upset about their poverty vs. the wealthy Mullahs pissing away their resources on a useless war and forcing economic sanctions upon them because of their quest for Nukes which will make their economy worse (unemployment at about 20%) and sooner or later they and the Arabs within will revolt. This is especially so since finding out that all that money sent to HezBullies ($245 mil) went up in smoke via Israeli smart bombs (notice I did not say George Bush’s smart bombs like a previous writer – that would be an oxymoron and you can’t have it both ways!). Let’s also keep in mind that the Iranian regime will pour tons of money into Syria to “help” with the huge inflow of Shias from Lebanon (who are escaping the wrath of the non-Shia Lebanese – hello civil war). This should also piss off the dominant Sunnis in Syria that Iran is populating THEIR country with more heretic Shias. So, Mahmood will have his hands full (if not already – from what I hear he does not use toilet paper, but an anti-bacterial soap) from within. But bombing a country that is 70% pro American would be stupid and expensive to rebuild – the change will come from within.
August 13, 2006 at 8:29 am
After reading over these blogs some are in the ballpark and some are reacting from emotion of the situation which is entirely understandable.
But let’s wash out our headgear and look at the whole picture. North Korea,Iran,Egypt and Syria are all in this together. North Korea, has been exporting missles and parts and technology to these countries for sometime now.
From the short range Nodong, to the ICBM capable Taepodong2 and 3 type missles. With financial backing from the middle east especially Iran. (just do a search on “north korean missles” and you’ll be surprised how much these countries are coperating with one another even trading scientist and observers”).
We didn’t discover Iran’s nuclear project until the new American,KH spy satelites were deployed. The Iran and North Korean projects are under ground and in mountains. This is why President Busch aquired 1 million dollars for the testing of a small nuclear warhead on a deep penetrating bunker buster bomb. The tests were succesful and obviously have only one mission. Vaporizing underground hardened targets without the release of above ground radiation. If a nuke is used against the U.S. or our allies the response will be quick and devestating to say the least. But when dealing with a culture who want to be martyrs,it’s not much of a deterence as it was during the Cold War. Finally if there is a strike against Israel,with first generation A-Bomb or bombs.
Israel, with it’s geography and hardend bunkers would be able to make a full retalitory strike with modern 3 stage thermo-nuclear weapons in the multiple megaton yield. Obviously this could trigger WWIII. And If the 3 stage Taepo’dong was fired at the U.S. the same would response would be the same. In any event we all had better be prepared for such an catastrophy. (Have a nice day) 🙂
August 13, 2006 at 9:24 am
why do people kill people?
what is the point?
December 13, 2022 at 3:51 am
No point at all. Animalistic behavior…we should be better than that
August 13, 2006 at 3:11 pm
This blog and most of these posts are like kids in a schoolyard – namecalling, fighting, worrying…What a sad bunch of humans you are.
You’re all so scared of Iran, etc, because you need a boogieman to be afraid of, one who will keep you from looking in the mirror.
Man, the hate and ignorance here is amazing. I’m sorry I mistakenly stumbled on this blog, it’s a huge reminder of how pathetic and uncivilized the human race still is.
August 13, 2006 at 4:25 pm
Woooo Vera…must know something we don’t….like world peace is at our fingertips?…and leaders of the US, Israel, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, France, Italy, England…etc…are all gonna sit down at a buffet and shoot the breeze and say…hey guys…have we scared the shit out of our people enough yet so they start believing what we say is true and forget all the corruptness in our governments? Real time real world Vera…wake up and stop reading blogs then and listen to the news……put two and two together hon and just look whats going on around the world….
August 13, 2006 at 4:30 pm
Further proof of Operation Northwoods:http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1
August 13, 2006 at 4:31 pm
Me thinks vera is the ignorant one…..maybe she knows something we don’t? Maybe the leaders of the US, England, France, Italy, Iran, North Korea, Lebanon, Israel, Venezuela, etc..are gonna join each other for lunch and shoot the breeze and say…gee did we scare our people enough so they might not see all the corruption in our countries….he vera check out the news…then come back and tell us what is going on in world…where have u been hon….in the antartica and just thawing?
August 13, 2006 at 5:24 pm
Vera, Join the fun Love!
August 13, 2006 at 5:27 pm
Try Astral Projection….and meet your God.
August 13, 2006 at 5:28 pm
It’s what all the prophets have done
August 13, 2006 at 7:01 pm
I have the solution to defuse the middle east crisis. We threaten to send Jessie Jackson over there. This alone will have everyone on thier knees begging for mercy.LOL 😉
August 13, 2006 at 7:35 pm
For those who think like W.bush, O.Fallaci.. read this book: Letters Against the war
Click to access TT_letterenglish.pdf
August 13, 2006 at 8:39 pm
Our world is on the brink of another world war. It will originate August 22nd in the Middle East. The prediction was presented not by Vagna or Nostradamus but by an American political scientist Bernard Lewis in the acclaimed publication of Wall Street Journal. He is a man with close ties to the Bush administration as well as to the non-conservatives pushing for the radical solution of the “Iranian Threat.”
http://english.pravda.ru/topic/war-248/
August 14, 2006 at 1:10 am
I have enjoyed reading all the blogs written here. Some a quite funny. While I have mercy for innocent people, it is those same innocent people who sit back and allow all the Shi’ite to take place. We need to realize as someone stated, these people do not care if they blow themselves up. They long to do it for the 69 virgins they are promised in the afterlife. For them to die as a martyre is like me getting my sword swallowed…pure bliss. They do not see peace or peaceful coexistance as an option. They see death to the infidel (all non-muslims), and that is what they want. They want a world of muslims. They want the world. So, if you are sitting there thinking, “Can’t we all just get along,” then you are sitting there like the baby seal about to get clubbed. They do not care about you or your children or your momma or grandmother. They would be smiling as they walked into your house on Thanksgiving and clubbed your whole family to death. To them they are doing a favor for Allah. I say we use neutron bombs. That way the oil is safe, but the people dead. This is all they know, so I say we give it to them before they give it to us. We’ll have Chaney’s men go in with their bull dozers (Since they will of course win the contract), to cover up the dead. Then, we move all the people who are too chicken Shi’ite to do anything (Yes you can’t we all just get along), and all the good for nothing freeloaders sucking my tax dollars for welfare and have them extract all the black gold for us. Then we divide all the profits between all us real Americans who won’t take any Shi’ite. In case anyone has forgotten how it works, the strong survive. Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran….
August 14, 2006 at 3:34 am
Onthisnote, look in the mirror. You will kill – not for 69 virgins or whatever, blah blah – but for your ignorant, brainwashed beliefs which are just as nonsensical.
The guy who posted the Northwood article is on top of the game. But there’s a whole bunch of guys on this bitching, scaredy-cat board who need to get some serious learning…Either that or go see one of those professionals who de-program brainwashed, delusional cult members.
You all are too brainwashed to see when Cheney and the rest of his corporate old fogey, bald-headed, heart-attack men are buggering you, America, and the rest of the world up the ass.
Goodbye and – – Good Luck. You and your refried brains need plenty of it.
August 14, 2006 at 4:29 am
wtf? dude this is scaring the shit out of me cuz im 16 and have the whole life ahead of me. Man i wish there is somewhere i can go to help me. ? is there? cuz this is fucking outrageous. I hope everything works out in the end and everyone is happy.
August 14, 2006 at 4:41 am
The 22nd is 2 days before my 19th birthday. The world could be at war on my birthday–sweet!
August 14, 2006 at 7:16 am
die … zionisme … die ….
August 14, 2006 at 12:56 pm
[…] کافیه در گوگل عبارت "August ۲۲, ۲۰۰۶" iran جستجو کنید تا ببینید چطور رسانههای غربی و اسرائیلی آرماگدون ایرانی را پیشبینی کردهاند. […]
August 14, 2006 at 1:19 pm
OMG how missed up are we, so many things to think about. so many things to do before the end, will it end, I dont know but if we keep thinking it will it mite. not a good time to have kids right. how messed up is a religion thats says its ok to kill for your god. that frecks me out that people think like that do they love there kids the way we do I dont think so they do strap bombs to them. crazzy shit.its like they live for there religion and not themselfs and there familes very srange to us.I hope they love there kids more then there god.well i have to go now just a fu things off my head, Im not a rocket scientist just a guy trying to live and rase my kids the best i can and show them that life is good. one thing i allways say to my kids is ( its good to be alive today isent it) as i say that i watch there little faces light up. do they say that to there kids I hope so.
August 14, 2006 at 2:06 pm
Its a religous war out there in the middle east and has been prophisized in the bible in the book of Isaiah 38-39.
This is not about oil, occupation, or anything. Its about those nut jobs that want to see Israel wiped out of the middle east to form an ISLAMIC State. RADICAL Islam is the devil’s creation in my opion. And will has to delt with accordingly.
This is all about a religious war and our Gov. knows it. They know the scriptures and its teachings. Hence the reason for defending Israel from Radical Islamic nuts. If we could only convert them to Christians, none of this would be happing.
I am against Israel’s occupation of Palistian land. I am against the killings of innoccense on BOTH sides. However there will be more, ALLOT MORE and our LORD will sheild us from that which will come.
Why do Muslims fight and kill each other the way they do? Hummm. You don’t see that in Christianity, or in Jews. This about the ISRAEL BEING DISTROID by Radical Nuts in the name of “ALLAH” OR ALA, or what ever they call their God. God has said it. Exodus 20:3 – Thou shal not no other gods before me.
This is all about religion and faith. Radical Islam want to impose their beliefs on us and convert us or kill us. Once we start to realize the objectives of this nuts we will understand that will never be piece in the middle east till the second comming of our lord and savior. Jesus Christ.
August 14, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Hey Vera,
Get back in the kitchen and fix us some sandwiches.
August 14, 2006 at 5:07 pm
Vera seems to be one of the most intelligent people posting here.
August 14, 2006 at 5:13 pm
Most of you people need to remove your head from your ass!!And get informed!!!
August 14, 2006 at 5:22 pm
I agree with Myles. However, it is not “radical” Islam that is doing this, it is just Islam. There is no “radical” Islam. Islam in and of itself is a violent religion/way of life. It preaches violence stright form the Quaran. Now, does this mean all muslims are evil and violent? Of course not. I’m sure there are many people who calim Islam as their religon and practice it with as much enthusiasm as Seth MacFarlane of Stephen Clobert practice Catholicism. As far as all the hoopla in the middle east, read Isaiah and Ezekiel, it will shed more light on what is happening and whats to come.
August 14, 2006 at 5:28 pm
Yet more evidence of what the U.S. has been doing.http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html
August 14, 2006 at 5:33 pm
mechadrum, sorry but Islam is not violent and they condemn such behavior!
August 14, 2006 at 5:52 pm
I think Vera needs to sit on the pump jack. She can look over and nurse all the freeloaders who should be working, because she needs something to get her mind straight again. Wake up dear, man and war go hand and hand. It has been and always will be. The problem we face right now is people like you cannot see it. It takes a 911 for you to start waving your flag. How many friends and family did you lose that day? Your mind will change when your family is blown to bits by some freak who is only too happy to do so.
More lives have been lost in the name of God than any other reason. The only reason Christians do not go and kill anymore is the belief Christ changed the law and now no more eye for eye. That and God stopped talking to people to tell His chosen go and wipe out the non-believer. Now, we have the Muslims who has taken this role upon themselves of cleansing the world of infidels llke you, and yes me. Their only objective is a world of Islam. THERE IS NOTHING ELSE FOR THEM.
So this refried bean head tell you I am very serious if it is going to be my family or theirs who I am going to chose. If death is the only option on the table I want it to be theirs. Wipe em out and to the winner go the spoils.
August 15, 2006 at 1:51 am
#66 Myles – as a “Christian” or even a hedonistic historian, one would know that Israel occupied the geographical TERRITORY of Palestine going way back to the year 2000 BC. [or was that 2000 BH (Before Halliburton)]?, anyhow – There was no official government in Palestine and the creation of “Palestinians” happened during the reign of Hitler and guess for what purpose? But early Israel was a strip of unwanted desert (a part of Egypt) that only nomadic tribes occupied from time to time. Islam was formed around 650 AD – yes after the ISLAMIC conquest they did occupy the land formerly known as Israel, but sorry – those Jews were there first (just like the American Indians were here before us). If the Indians here could put the firewater down, maybe they could take some of it back – I’d gladly donate New Jersey, but I don’t think they’d want the garbage – I mean Garden State. Anywho, (as those Canadians would say) I was beginning to get turned on to Vera (in a weird way) until she used “bald headed” as a derogatory adjective describing undesirable manipulative old men. I resemble that statement and demand an apology! But seriously, 69 is a good number Vera (great year for wine), but don’t short change the young men (and some old bald Moslems too) – they are due to receive 72 virgins! But God does have a sense of humor guys, because they will all be like VERA! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaahhhggg! Nag, nag, nag forEVER! Imagine that!!!
August 15, 2006 at 2:13 am
Oh, sorry for the double post here but I forgot to ask aMADjihad if he could postpone this August 22nd deadline for 6 months to a year? I just bought a BMW (that’s Beat My Wife in Persian) and would like to enjoy it for a while speeding around town with the sun tanning my head through the sunroof.
September 7, 2021 at 3:21 am
August 15, 2006 at 4:35 am
Vera ,
How about those sandwiches . The Eagle went on a beer run.When he gets back he’s gonna be hungry!
August 15, 2006 at 9:58 am
Rick…read that story on the site u listed Operation Northwoods:http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1 While interesting, figured it was going to be a story about a Democrat…why the heck do u think Kennedy was shot in the head? Johnson was no better…and do u want someone like Kerry running our country? Or worse….Hillary and Mr. Cigar Clinton? Mr. Clinton had Bin Laden in his pocket if he wanted but he didn’t act on it….Dems will be the downfall of this country….lol they already are…shit on my shoes that I just can’t wipe off….and oh VERA….why don’t u volunteer and go clean the asses of the Hezbollah….they say that sand they have to use is sure hurting their butts…and don’t shake hands with them….ugh….well know custom…..shit in one, gun in other….and where are those sandwiches Vera Martha Stewart?
August 15, 2006 at 11:32 am
If the muslims really cared about the palastinians and wanted them to have thier own country they could easily divy up a small portion of thier own land (mostly desert)and give it to them. But no they want take Israel’s land that was Israel’s since they did what God, told them to do and take it from the canaanites
a few milleniums ago. Glenn Beck, on HLN,is also of the opinion that this is the start of WWIII. I found it intersting that the regular news never reported on the 10,000 muslims in Deerborne Mich, demonstrating and proclaiming Hezballah or how ever you spell it as thier Army. This area is 30% muslim and is the place where lasers were being aimed into the cockpits of airliners in hopes of blinding the pilots and crashing the planes. This was also reported by Glenn Beck on HLN. Seems we have to clean up the insurgents here first. Then clean up the middle east. The neutron bombs sound like a good Idea. They don’t destroy buildings but explode giving off massive gamma ray radiation.
After ten days it is safe to move into the area again. A pre-emptive strike on Iran and North Korea is a lot better than waiting for them to nuke the U.S. to have a reason to hit them. The best quote of the week was by a woman who was on one of the flights comeing from England. “The world has lost it’s mind”. Nuf said.
August 15, 2006 at 3:07 pm
Glenn Beck is a bag licker!!!
August 15, 2006 at 4:08 pm
what a glorious time to be alive.
i have been waiting thirty years for the shit to go down!!
i will be in the woods and if you come into my woods i might eat you.
no money\image worshipping morons in my lifeboat.
I LIVE FOR SURVIVAL!!
Bring it
SURELY I COME QUICKLY. AMEN!!
August 15, 2006 at 6:59 pm
brettzy be careful what you eat it may be your last meal.
August 15, 2006 at 7:00 pm
o i forgot amen and i come slowly
August 15, 2006 at 7:38 pm
Karma did partial research on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Folks often overlook the fact that the MUSLIM Ottoman empire conquered (read owned) the land that both the Jews and Palestinians claim. The Israeli colonists pre and post WWII purchased most of the lands now recognized as Israel LEGALLY from MUSLIMS! The issue has been contested by the Palestinians for decades, but to whom do you plead for justice when the ruling entity is no longer in power? Yes, the fellow muslims could have alleviated this “grievous act,” as one previous letter mentioned, by giving up parts of their territories. “But, Nooooooooo!” as John Belushi’s character on Saturday Night Live would say, they’d rather continue an on-going feud with an age-old “enemy.” Get along? In your dreams. Yes, the muslims want an islamic world free of jews and infidels. The pact with Iran’s Pres. “Ah-ma-nut-job” is no better than Hitler and Stalin’s pact. Look what happened there! Wake up, world! You might be next!
August 15, 2006 at 9:03 pm
Bismi Allah Arrehman Arrahim. Kul Aaoozo be Rabin nass. Malikin nass. illahin nass. Min shar ril was wa sil khan na sil lazi. yu was wiso phe sudori nass. me nal jin nate wan nass. Ameen
August 15, 2006 at 9:21 pm
Ricky, I don’t know what Mr. Beck may or may not lick, but I think the story he did about the 10,000 Arabs in Dearborn, MI putting on a rally to show support for Hezbollah was a very important story.
They are in our streets. Its time for us here at home to lock n’ load. When push comes to shove, we ARE the militia.
August 16, 2006 at 12:36 am
Hey MRS DJ, The government is teaching us that all Arabs and muslims are out to get us!I’m more afraid of our own government as they have demonstrated throughout history they are capable of things we cannot comprehend!
August 16, 2006 at 12:50 am
Ricky I find it humorous that you are using the NY Times as your source to prove a fact. Isn’t that the same newspaper that hired and retained someone because of the color of his skin and allowed him to Plagiarize and make up stories as fact??
August 16, 2006 at 1:58 am
Hey getReal,There’s only about 3.2 million websites you can find info on.Take your pick!!
August 16, 2006 at 2:25 am
DO NOT WORRY MY FELLOW US CITIZENS…THE IRANIAN PRESIDENT WILL EXPERIENCE AN UNFORTUNATE SURPRISE ON AUGUST 22, 2006.
August 16, 2006 at 3:59 am
#84 Ahmz: Nok yerself appro slick – le greymatta bak la performas don, not taketcbe’n man. There – now chew on that for a while smarty pants.
Ricky: Sure (IN THIS country without fearing reprisals) anyone can say that this government (made up of countless inefficient fat LIFERs sitting on $600 toilets) is capable of creating precise and extremely well thought out “Advanced Top Secret” events to further empower itself (yawn) but tell us all – or at least those waiting for Vera to get off her fat butt to make those sandwiches – what excuse do you have for Islam 230 years prior to this country’s creation and all her secrecies? For 1300 years Moslems have been raping and murdering to advance their version of a loving God! There are currently about 28 conflicts/wars going on in this world – the USA is involved in only 2 directly and about 4 indirectly. Islam is the common denominator in 23 of the 28. Most of the murders are Moslems murdering Moslems because they aren’t radical enough – NOWHERE is the USA involved in these conflicts (like Indonesia, Kashmir, Philippines, Darfur – Arabs killing Blacks, etc). You are obviously anti-US and we get that, we won’t cut your throat for expressing your opinion (only wishing you eternal life with Vera). You (with your liberal mental disorder) will continue to seek out any and all anti-US fabricated propaganda from any and all anti-traditional, anti-conservative, “media” sources. In other words – you seek the information that you feel fits your ideology and consider it as truth. Get it over with and MOVE to the country of your choice. Be like Cat Stevens and change your name to Mohammad Al-whatever. Buy some kneepads to go with the prayer rug (6 times a day with your head 6″ behind some guy’s dirty butt) – go for it. I’ll stay here and continue to do what our founding fathers thought was best: pursue happiness. Go on now and live amongst the hatred and violence. VERA, where’s my beer!!
August 16, 2006 at 4:09 am
Ricky… and your point is???
Why don’t you pick one that is credible and maybe then I’ll listen.
August 16, 2006 at 11:43 am
95% of the posts in this discussion are probably from racist and ignorant warmongering little kids who probably think that war is like in the video games they play all day. Do some real research first before demonizing Iran, the Middle-East, and all Muslim cultures in general.
The real war crimes in this world are pepetrated by European/Zionist/Western Global-Financial Multi-National Giant Corporations. This is what Bush and his Neo-Cons adhere to. The war in the Middle-East is about oil and militaristic occupation (go look up The Project for a New American Century).
The reason why you pathetic brainwashed morons hate the Muslims so much is because you have been conditioned by your extremely biased Controlled Media (controlled by zionist Pro-Bush liars like Rupert Murdoch). Your media is shaping your perception of the world according to the political views shared by the Zionist/Neo-fascist imperialists.
The only way you can stop this, is when you people start questioning your own government instead of waving the American Flag with blindfolds. There is nothing wrong with patriotism, but real patriots are the ones willing to question their own government’s motives. You should all do some research. It will take a while but it’s well worth it.
August 16, 2006 at 2:47 pm
Hey, folks. Doesn’t it tell you something that muslims, wherever they live, consider themselves muslims first, then citizens of whatever country second? Now, here’s a kicker: as a group, muslims are VERY patient people. If the extremists cannot blow us up or shoot us in the immediate future, no biggee. WE, if we do not eliminate our complacency, could possibly get VOTED out of a country, religion, way of life, etc. Scenario: we know the USA is a melting pot; all are welcome. Sooner or later, most likey later, a muslim candidate for some local office will be elected. He/she may do a fine job. The masses say, “Oh, they (the muslims) aren’t so bad after all.” Then more and more get elected to local, then state, then national positions, as the birthrate of muslims rises and muslim immigration continues. Next thing you know, WE’RE the minority faced living with THEIR religious rules and tenents. Far fetched? Not as much as you’d think. Look at what is happening to the Dutch. The exact thing is happening to their contry. The Dutch allowed uncontrolled immigration of muslims and now the Dutch citizens are leaving in droves because of what’s happening in THEIR country (mosques and islamic influence everywhere). Why? Because they don’t have the balls to stand up for what they established. Sound familar?
Like it or not, the USA has become the world’s defender of life, liberty, and freedom. Britain, and a few other countries when it suits them, are the only ones standing with us between life as we know it and a perverted version of a religious belief intolerant to anything but itself.
The muslims are OUR generation’s Nazis/Facists/Imperialists. Why is there unrest throughout most of the middle east and Asia? The extremist muslims want to bring back the Caliphate that once stretched from Spain across the middle east to Indonesia (Myles # 66). Why? Because of past opression? Want of political power? Loss of status? Monetary gain? Religious equality? Who knows!
The main thing is we have GOT to unite, stand together, and face this threat. We MUST stop showing a divided front to the muslims. We ARE at war and it won’t stop until one or more of three things happen: 1. Muslims reign in the extremists; 2. We fight them to a death and eliminate the threat ourselves; 3. Die/and or convert to Islam. I’ll be DAMNED if I accept option three.
Our only hope is that the ongoing bickering between Shi’a and Sunni will continue to keep them from uniting against us in a common cause: the death of the infidels. We’ve fought two fronts before, Europe and the Pacific. What makes it untenable is the tactics utilized by the extremists: no uniforms, no country, no centralized command, using civilian areas as both bases of operations and attack positions, thus providing them with human shielding. And the extremists have the audacity to call us cowards. Yeah, we’re cowards because we have respect for human life and do not target non-combatants. I wonder what they’d think if we eliminated that mind-set.
Sorrow, fellow contributors. I’ll get off of the soap box. I’m just tired, as pointed out before, of people regurgitating someone else’s rhetoric/political dogma/whatever to make “their” point. PLEASE, research, read, and learn ALL there is about what is going on around us. No, you did’t sleep through it in History class in high school/college. You won’t get the big picture unless you read numerous articles from notable experts from different countries. Anyone with half a brain will see if the view has a slant one way or the other, but there is always something in each that contributes a piece to the puzzle.
That means you: Desperado, Vera, Able Danger, Ricky, and others that the shoe fits…
August 16, 2006 at 5:03 pm
i have a question:
if he was going to blow up the world.
why would he start a blog? hmm?
if the world was ending i wouldn’t start a blog.
http://eteraz.wordpress.com/2006/08/14/iranian-president-ahmedinejad-has-a-blog/
August 16, 2006 at 10:00 pm
check out “hezbollah” at http://www.JeanValJeanLives.com
August 17, 2006 at 12:13 am
I must say, I like DJ’s lengthy post, and have one point to make.
Religion is simply a fairy tale for the weak minded. 95% of people have some religion, and this just proves that the world is just not ready for humans to evolve further, or use technology properly, etc. These religious fanatics are only worse than any religious person in the fact that they kill people to get their point across. That doesn’t mean that every religious person is not inherently evil.
Ask any person with any religion and they would LOVE to have you become part of their cult. This is just a method of control for human behavior, and money.
I think the 10 commandments are good rules to live by for instance, but i certainly don’t believe they were given by the voice of some ‘almighty’ puppet master, to some shoeless cave man on a mountain by a burning bush. anyone who does is a complete idiot and lost in their own fantasies. The same is true of anyone who believes ‘magic’ oil kept a lamp lit for 8 days, or they are going to get 72 vigins when they go to heaven.
frankly, when you die, you die and your “soul” (collection of energy from the billions of cells that make up every body) returns to the earth (or would if we werent pumped full of formaldahyde). There is no heaven for these towel heads or cross bearers or chosen people to go to. there is no hell either. This is the biggest waste of time, money and natural resources on the world’s largest persistent HOAX.
My advice to everyone here – reevaluate your world view, stop giving money to some pedophile training camp(church), terrorist camp(mosque) or law school(synagogue), and give it to some non religious charity that focuses on medicine and science and the betterment of MANKIND. it is just a fairy tale and crutch for the weak of mind and hollow of heart.
have some kids, find love within yourself instead of looking to some mother goose tales from millenia ago – when the WORLD WAS STILL FLAT.
and most importantly – melt those rag head mother fuckers down to beaded glass with a strategic nuke in every middle east capital city, pyong yang, and fuck it…paris just because those french people suck.
August 17, 2006 at 3:11 am
#92: Able Danger – for such a self-proclaimed intellectual (much smarter than us all) you sure have a poor grip on effective communication skills. In other words – who bothers to contemplate anything you have to say when it is nothing but insults and child like name-calling? Kind of wasting your time here aren’t you?
# 95: Jean, shameless self promotion….Hey wait a minute – Is this Ahmadinejad? (LOL – yea like he’d subject himself to thousands of insulting emails per day) BTW – The music gets annoying after while (unless that is psychological operations – a military tactic used to wear down the enemy). You did put some work into it (although the font is amateurish) building up to the point, which is the same regurgitated pabulum (Jews, Jews, Jews) you Nazi retread (how’s that for name calling!). #94 Now, I do like Ali’s site – “Eteraz”, nice reference to the Persian word “Protest”. BTW something we should keep in mind is that many Iranians (Persians) are pro American despite our past meddling (ahem, yes Jimmy Carter I’m referring to you). Anyway, great stuff Ali on your blog: but lustful emails? Did you get any from President Carter? He’s been known to have “looked on a lot of women with lust” (so he said). You have to excuse my fellow citizens – Customs and courtesies, once part of this country were erased after the hippies from the 1960’s moved into positions of power and influence. We’re slowly trying to recover. #96 religion is stupid: You’re a piece of work – we’re just left speechless. Actually you didn’t do too bad presenting your case until the last paragraph – was that a little demon on your shoulder speaking to you, or did your little brother finish it while you left to “smoke a rope”? – Quite odd I must say was this quote: {That doesn’t mean that every religious person is not inherently evil.}. Two things; First you spoke with a double negative subconsciously suggesting that all religious people are evil – huh? How can there be evil according to your secular view? Anyway, a few painless questions though for you the know-all-see-all: How is it possible that something (creation of life via big bang theory, etc) came from…nothing? How did the origins of life, the atoms, sub-atomic particles “know” to bond to create the elements necessary to sustain an environment with perfect balance? Where did those little atoms come from – what was there before? Smoke another one and get back to us – we eagerly await your insightful response!
August 17, 2006 at 3:21 am
Bravo DJ on an excellent well stated post.
Your point is so very well taken.
“I’m just tired, as pointed out before, of people regurgitating someone else’s rhetoric/political dogma/whatever to make “their” point. PLEASE, research, read, and learn ALL there is about what is going on around us.”
To that end may I suggest The Middle East
Media Research Institute TV Monitor Project.
The Web site is listed below. We should definitely observe and understand where the otherside is coming from so we can anticipate from where and when they will be coming at us.
http://www.memritv.org
By the way …
Vera!!! dammit woman! where’s my sandwich and brewski!!!
August 17, 2006 at 4:16 am
As a follow-up to my post (#98) also check out
Jihad Watch …verrrry interesting!
http://www.jihadwatch.org/
re Mujibar’s post #77…..
VERA! Be sure to wash your hands before making sandwiches!!!
August 17, 2006 at 2:05 pm
WOW! Able danger has bowed to Allah and wants us to embrace the peaceful, loving and wonderful muslims. Break it down Able, but know your Muslim history. Just examine Muslimsim from its onset. It goes something like this….convert, see everyone not muslim as infidel and immoral, wage war and take over the government and force Muslimism on everyone. That is Islam in a nutshell. If there is something I left please tell me. It has been going on since Mohummad came out of the cave after eating mushrooms.
Do you actually believe there can be peaceful coexistance between any other religion and Islam? They may have “ties,” with the likes of North Korea and Russia and France (Note…France is on their side because the are scared and hope by playing with them they will not take them over too),but it isn’t because of some peace boond. Islam will use the same nukes and arms it got from those countries against them, becuase they are infidels too.
Regardless of what you (anyone out there) believe (your faith), you cannot ignore facts based on history and what is happening in this very day. Islam is a Hitler in religious form. It has been since its inception and will be til we wipe it off the face of the earth. Am I pro war? Hell no. But I am not pro death by carbomb or Jetliner by some freak who thinks he is doing the will of God.
Now, another note to Danger… if the majority of Islam is for peace, love, and “Can’t we all just get along… with Vera” then why don’t they do justice (eliminate)to all those radicals within their ranks? They know who they are and where they are? If they are not teaching “True Islam,” then how come the 1. something BILLION other Islamics get rid of the all the infidels within their own ranks. You would think that if I was a TRUE ISLAMIC PERSON and someone was teaching and Islam different that TRUE ISLAM, those people would be bigger infidels. They would be in need of being killed first to rid TRUE ISLAM from such a bad rap so all the world could see how lovely and wonderful they really are.
I have the answer…because they want them to do what they are doing…rid the world of the infidel.
August 18, 2006 at 1:49 am
DJ saysHey, folks. Doesn’t it tell you something that muslims, wherever they live, consider themselves muslims first, then citizens of whatever country second?
Hmmm. I consider myself a Christian first and American second and so do 90% of the American Christians.
August 18, 2006 at 2:50 am
Peachy, I don’t think Moslems see citizenship (or civilization) as the western countries do. They are in bondage no matter where they live because their meaning of life is to prepare to be with Allah – so what does citizenship mean to them? Nothing… These folks started out as Nomads and continue to be so, whether it is North Africa or Detroit. As far as the Christian vs. American thing – Christianity is “allowed” in America (still) so you and the so called 90% better tie the two together before you will have no where to practice it. Moslems are moving forward with their agenda while Christians are shrinking back – as pacifist. The Secularist feel they are doing this country a favor by reducing the influence of Christianity but little do they know – they are creating a vacuum Islam will gladly fill.
August 18, 2006 at 4:09 am
lebanon Survives once again, But will Syria of Assad
August 18, 2006 at 4:29 am
Things are about to change.
August 18, 2006 at 12:14 pm
Eagle, good view on the vacuum affect. Whether anyone believes in God (the God of Christianity) or not the moral decline in America is clear since the removal of the base principles our founding fathers set down. I do not believe the religious freedoms they meant were for all religions, just the freedom of Christian practices. That is just my opion, since this is what they all were. They were all Chiristians of one faith or another, and they would have seen any other religion as not of God, which this county was “One nation,” under.
August 18, 2006 at 12:19 pm
One more thing…
If it is Christianity you (anyone out there) believe in, then what is happening should not be a surprise. It is written by turning your back on Him that (as a nation just like what happened to Israel) He would turn His back on you. The outcome is what we are seeing today taking place in America…Girls gone Wild…glorification of homosexuality…name it, you got it.
August 18, 2006 at 6:34 pm
Onthisnote: Although you are correct that the belief system involved with the founding of this country had Christian overtones (see Declaration Of Independence opening statement to Congress July 4, 1776), secularists played an important role as well and that was a good thing. The purpose of the Constitution was to place limits on our government’s power over her people. Amendment 1 dictates to Congress that they would make no law respecting an establishment of religion OR prohibit the exercise thereof. And that certainly leaves us with a dilemma when it comes to a clandestine religion called Islam that seeks to thwart all western governmental laws (overthrow) and replace them with the Sharia. How they do this is by migrating peacefully into western cultures and slowly begin to gain influence politically until they have enough of a majority to overrule existing laws. If they fail to do this within reasonable time terrorism is used to convince those in power to change. We saw that with the Spaniards and the French who have lost their country to the Islamic Conquest of the 21st Century. England too is currently losing to the inevitable and already referring to the city of London as Londonistan. And finally the Province of Ontario, Canada has authorized the use of Sharia law in civil arbitrations – a foot in the door. Here in the United States, in order to stave off this invasion to OUR way of life we will at some point have to declare Islam not a religion, but a dangerous cult or political movement such as Nazism to ban it. I doubt it will happen, but if it does, this will occur way too late and my guess is that the liberal feel good types will instead opt to either ban all religions or establish a certain type (like a world religion – hello Revelations) as legitimate and legal. This can and will happen after an event causes martial law and the suspension of the Constitution’s Amendments. My guess is this event will mirror what we see in Iraq today, a model of the future to come because we are a divided people today.
August 18, 2006 at 9:34 pm
man,,,,he is like a worker,,,,,,, juste litsen the order not giving the order,,,,,witch he should do it!
August 18, 2006 at 10:02 pm
I’m sure I’ll be blasted by some for saying what I’m about to say, but those doing the blasting weren’t in the taxi with me (I’ll get to that at the end).
Some say the majority of Muslims want peace and shun war while others say they’re a bunch hell bent on the complete destruction of the West.
Other than the fact that there seems to be so many Muslims who blow up innocent civilians as they go about the daily life chores of earning a living, caring for children, and trying to have a little fun, I cannot get past the way a vast number of Muslim men treat and regard women.
Although, I’m sure there are some who will try, you can’t blame that on a vast conspiracy perpetuated by the American government.
As an American woman whose sisters have fought long and hard for the rights we enjoy today, I have a big problem with Muslim men. I don’t want to wear a burqa because some guy thinks of sex when he looks at me. That’s his problem, not mine. I don’t want to cover my body and face in extreme heat because some guy thinks of sex when he looks at me. I don’t want acid thrown at me because some guy looked at me and my brother took offense to it and blamed me for it. This is everyday life for too many women in Muslim countries.
I will not see my daughters treated like this and, if necessary, I will do anything I can to prevent it.
This is where the blasting will come in as I hear how: A) Muslim women are highly regarded because the religion says women are to be revered or B) western women are abused too.
My answer to A)is that what might be in the Quran isn’t necessarily practiced and B)while there are some American women who suffer horrendous abuse, we prosecute the scum who beat them instead of pat them on the back.
So, to the people out there who think our Government is the evil entity in this struggle, I wish you could have been in the taxi with me going from Lawton, Oklahoma to Will Roger’s Airport in Oklahoma City. (I was visiting my mom who had just been given 6 weeks to live with a diagnosis of brain cancer.)
The taxi driver was a young man from Bangladesh who had come to the US on a student visa, dropped out of college with a semester to go because his grants ran out, and was working to support his wife and daughter. He went back to Bangladesh to marry his wife, a first cousin, and had a little girl when back in the US.
This young man almost had a heart attack when I sat in the front seat of the van (bucket seats) but he let it go. We proceeded to talk about life in the US compared to his country and got on the topic of daughters. He said that daughters need to be severely controlled because of their evil tendencies. I told him that as far as Americans go, especially American dads, we view the young guys dating our daughters as the ones who need to be controlled. I joked about it. He didn’t.
He continued to say that, present company excluded, most American women dress like sluts and therefore they’re treated like sluts (who else does that sound like – Deepak Kalpoe?). Ever been to Europe? Whether one agrees with the way women in this century dress or not, American women dress more conservatively than the women in most other countries. It’s just another example of the excuses Muslims will use in their quest to take the West down.
I love my life in this Country. While not perfect, it’s the best game going as far as I’m concerned. I don’t want to live in a socialist country, a communist country, or a Muslim dominated country. I like it here. To those who don’t, look around and find some place that you do like and move there. You’ll be happier and we will be, too.
August 19, 2006 at 3:53 am
A little off topic here but I have to know something,are there alot of out of country T.V. channels broadcast in the U.S.?I know that every U.S. news station seems to be awfully biased.Here in Canada for example,this weekend they’re showing a documentary on how people first became infected with aids.Would’nt you know aids came fron vaccines!!Now I’m not pointing the finger at anyone’s government but….I’d have to say the U.N along with the U.S. were somewhat responsible!!No conspiracy theory here,CHECK THE FACTS!!
August 19, 2006 at 4:02 am
Americanwoman, you said it all.
Thank God we live in a country where there are no limits on what we can achieve by our own hard work and ability.
We have come a long way ,through many trying times (the Civil Rights Movement, Womens Lib,
Recession and the current political battles between liberals ,conservatives republicans,democrats ,what have you). We came through it over and over again and it makes us stronger and better as a nation.
Growing up , I loved to watch Superman on TV .
He stood for “Truth ,Justice and the American Way”.
As Americans, we all do . It is part of our national fabric, it is our credo. It is what makes us great as a country and as a “People”.
If we don’t like what the President says or does ,we can say so without fear that there will be a knock on the door in the middle of the night.
We can vote ,practice the religion of our choice or no religion ,raise a family ,live the life we choose as long as it doesn’t infringe on the rights of our neighbor. The guidelines we follow are our conscience, good taste and the Golden Rule.
If our country is so evil ,so contemptable, if we are the Infidels, why are all these foreigners coming here?
My father was a WWII vet. He fought with the 100th Infantry Division in France and Germany. The Dedication from their website is as follows:
Dedicated to
the Soldiers of the 100th Infantry Division
who, loving Life, wedded Death
so that Freedom could remain
immortal.
We as a people are the most generous on the face of the earth .We are a beacon for freedom loving peoples everywhere. While we are patient and slow to anger ,we are The force to be reconned with should we be pushed too far.
August 19, 2006 at 6:46 am
Sex, Lies and Call Girls: Why the U.S. Media Is a Whore
August 19, 2006 at 6:51 am
#109 Americanwoman: Thanks for the down to earth posting. It sure is interesting how the feminists have stayed quiet about that very subject (Moslems treatment of women). I would REALLY like to know what the real reason is for the deafening silence – why the mutiny against the very thing they fought for. The only one (feminist)who seems close to standing up to radical Islam is (God forgive me) Hillary – but is that only a political move?
#111Big Jake: I’m with ya brother.
#108 barham…You either need a better translator website or slow down on the opium.
#110 Ricky the Hoser: I wouldn’t say any of that is off YOUR topic since all of your other post (as I review them) are saying the same thing basically, eh: You have a boner for the United States and all this so called propaganda, ahem, I mean information that you seek out supports your theory that we are well, just bad people! You said earlier that Islam isn’t violent – and yet right in your back yard was a recent terrorist plot targeting Toronto and Ottawa. A bomb 3 times the size of the one used in Oklahoma City was to be detonated at a Canadian institution, to affect the Canadian economy and kill the Canadian people (who are mostly anti-US ironically enough). Anyway, I think we GET IT that you folks up north have this hatred (not all of course) mostly due to jealousy and liberalism (a mental disorder). BTW most of us don’t care what you guys think of us by now. But if you REALLY want to know facts these days (when anyone sitting at a computer dressed only in their underwear can put up a website with FrontPage), you need to hear from both sides and see things RATIONALLY. AIDS I’m sure was man made, BUT it wasn’t what you, Jeff Rense, and all the conspiracy propagandist spew out. It had more to do with Bionetics and researchers making bad mistakes in their quest to find a cure for Cancer using monkees and viruses to see if the cancer is caused and/or spread by viruses.
http://www.serendipity.li/more/cantwell.htm
August 19, 2006 at 11:34 am
Hi people, i’m from Turkey.
check this documentary to have an idea about what is going on.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5946593973848835726&q=loose+change
make wars to keep your country exist as one piece. but don’t make it personal.
this much hatred against muslims causes you seem like odd animals.
August 19, 2006 at 3:11 pm
Oh yes THE EAGLE mr. know-it-all!!Is your name Glenn Beck by chance?
August 19, 2006 at 6:53 pm
Just some info. News out today of large Iranian miltary operation. Land, sea and air.
Heads up???
August 19, 2006 at 10:57 pm
This one’s for you Ricky,
As an addendum to Eagle’s post #113
Why suspects dropped Parliament plot
By JIM BRONSKILL
OTTAWA (CP) – An alleged plot to take MPs hostage on Parliament Hill was abandoned at an early stage because the people involved – who hail from southern Ontario – knew little about Ottawa, The Canadian Press has learned.
The accused conspirators are being interrogated about any possible plans to attack targets in the United States or links to sympathizers south of the border, sources also indicate. The public was shocked to hear a group arrested on terrorism-related charges had supposedly planned to storm Parliament, seize politicians and behead the prime minister.
BEHEAD THE PRIME MINISTER,EH! Islam may or may not be violent depending on the interpretation of “violent” and the motives and fervor of the individual followers whoever they may be.
August 19, 2006 at 11:47 pm
As manufactured terror alerts, magnified turmoil in the Middle East, and dire proclamations that doomsday is approaching all converge at the end of the summer of 2006, the twist in the story is likely to be a massive staged terror attack that will smother any remaining voices of descent and once again leave America transfixed in an orgy of militarism, paranoia and fear.
The targets of the subsequent frenzied police state clampdown will be the traitors who questioned their government’s motivations in the war on terror and blocked Bush’ path in protecting the American people.
Alex Jones has only made one previous prediction that he was overwhelmingly sure would come to pass. In July 2001, Jones launched ‘Operation Expose the Government Terrorists,’ a desperate late attempt to focus activism around raising awareness of an imminent massive terror attack that would be blamed on the patsy Osama bin Laden.
Unfortunately that foresight came home to roost on September 11 and we now find ourselves in similar peril five years later.
On his August 10th show, Alex Jones broadcast a warning that we would soon see, “bone-shattering mega attacks in the United States, Canada, England or Israel.”
The time frame for the attacks is within 2 months – the biggest risk being before the middle of October but at least before the mid-term elections in November.
“The prelude to a new mega attack or a string of large attacks – leading up to that – I predicted that they would have five to ten staged busts of terrorists,” said Jones.
The watershed success of the 9/11 truth movement in obtaining national exposure has been met with a fierce backlash from the establishment in the form of nationwide editorials on cue, almost as if uniformly timed, that attack 9/11 skeptics with straw man smear campaign arguments. In addition, an increase in alleged foiled terror alerts serves two purposes, to shift attention away from the increasingly high profile 9/11 truth information and secondly to construct the story board to which the next real attack will be pinned.
‘Look, we protected you from all those attacks but we just couldn’t stop them all – it was the peaceniks and the civil libertarians who prevented us going all the way and keeping America safe – they are to blame for major cities being dirty bombed and others biologically poisoned.’
The baseless terror raids, besides acting as PR for delusional fearmongering and the perception that terrorists are hiding under every bed, also creates a chilling effect whereby the government is sending a message to anyone that doesn’t display the proper modicum of obedience and fails to salute the war on terror.
‘We can grab you off the street or from your own home at our own convenience and incarcerate you – without having to present any evidence to justify it.’
Some have suggested that Fox News’ mention of Alex Jones’ warning (watch above) is sufficient advance protection to offset the coming attack. However, coverage of the warning needs to be infinitely more widespread in order to have any impact. The 9/11 Blogger website has put together an activist page that provides information on how people can help us mobilize to try and prevent what government officials and their apologists have told us is inevitable.
Disturbing developments such as the smearing of 9/11 truth activists as terrorist sympathizers and the surveillance and wanton random arrests and beatings of alternative news journalists act as a red flag to denote preparation for a martial law crackdown in the wake of a new synthetic terror attack.
The beta test for this tactic was the 1995 Oklahoma City Bombing, a false flag event that almost obliterated the burgeoning Patriot Movement. In the immediate aftermath of the attack the patsy, Timothy McVeigh, was linked with “far-right militia groups” that talked about the Constitution and federal encroachment on God-given rights. Though no mass sweeps took place, the chilling effect was enough to send a great deal of activists into the shadows – or worse many sold out and became frothing Neo-Cons as soon as Bush got into office.
That same chilling effect is again being employed and applied not just to paleoconservatives – but to anyone who dares dissent against the Neo-Fascist agenda. Even democratically elected moderate anti-war candidates such as Ned Lamont, hardly a George Washington, and his supporters, are being accused of supporting Al-Qaeda by the drooling maniacs who act as PR whores for the Bushists. Though on the face of it this kind of rhetoric – the notion that thousands of citizens in Connecticut ticked Lamont’s box because they thought it would help Osama bin Laden – is patently schizophrenic, the mere repetition of the big lie is enough for many to zealously uphold its orthodoxy.
In addition to network news TV shows, reports of Neo-Con cheerleaders on the radio framing anyone who questions 9/11 as having an ‘Al Qaeda mind set’ are beginning to filter in. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see where all this is potentially heading – directly to a Homeland Security labor camp unless we stand up and point the finger at the real freedom loathing terrorists.
We should not consider ourselves outside of the scope of a regime that always links its next victims with Al-Qaeda as an excuse to decapitate them from the political spectrum.
Alex Jones’ warning of a monumental staged terror attack, creating the pretext to air strike Iran, and its subsequent ramifications for freedom-exercising citizens and truth activists in the western world, is a piercing light through the veil of deception and needs to be echoed around the four corners of the globe if we are to stand a chance of saving America from the grip of a vampiric Neo-Fascist horror show.
August 20, 2006 at 12:04 am
To the eagle,as far as calling me a “hoser” which of the 29 definitions are you referring to?Actually I was born in Brockton, Mass. and my family just happens to be a prominent political family there!I just choose to live in a better country for my kids.
August 20, 2006 at 12:05 am
To the eagle,as far as calling me a “hoser” Actually I was born in Brockton, Mass. it’s just that Canada for now is a much better country in which to live!
August 20, 2006 at 2:55 am
August 22 will come and go with no big events. Ahmadinajad is full of hyper-rhetoric. Too bad the Israelis had to pull out of Lebanon — we should have let them fight it out. That’s the only thing that will end this whole deal.
As for Iran trying something, in the long run, it would be better if they did. We need to get this war (make no mistake, that’s what it is) over with — and the only way to do that with religious zealots raised to believe heaven is a simple IED away is to kill them.
Bottom f-ing line, if we want our way of life to continue we have to have it out. Bring it on, Iran!
August 20, 2006 at 3:46 am
Able Danger is right. You people have a very subjective view of world affairs. You seem to buy into that whole “You are either with us or with the terrorists” propaganda that the Neo-Cons have been promoting through their media ever since 9/11 happened. If you actually investigated 9/11, you will see that it was a government false-flag operation ran by elements within the United States Government in order to use it as a pretext to invade the Middle East. Who here has ever heard of the Project for a New American Century? Those are government papers you can actually research.
There are Muslim extremists out there. Nobody will deny that. That is a fact. However, what you need to know is how they became extremist in the first place. A lot of their extremist ideologies are a result of U.S./Israel foreign policies. You people are brainwashed sheep who have no real understanding of what is going on behind the scenes. Do some research before deciding to post anti-muslim comments. Your one-sided comments are also potentially misleading to anyone who reads them. Be responsible before you post.
August 20, 2006 at 4:11 am
Guys,
Any comments on AnotherMAD from Turkey ‘s post
#114?
I looked at the film twice .As far as motive, opportunity and money trail, I find it very disturbing. Any info on whether this has been investigated and debunked?
August 20, 2006 at 4:12 am
AnotherMAD from Turkey: Films can and are full of falsehoods and half-truths conveniently suited for the director’s image or belief. So that stuff is garbage – besides, since when are Islamics concerned with one of the 10 commandments “thou shalt not lie”? Moslems see this thing we call a lie as a tool to trick the infidel. And war has NOT kept this country together. It has caused a split that the Islamic propagandists are taking advantage of. We don’t have hatred for Moslems (notice the CORRECT spelling) just a determination to defeat the Islamic Conquest and help you to reform your religion by removing the call to Jihad for Allah’s sake. Rickee: Maybe you moved across the border to avoid the charges of plagiarism: http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/170806declarewar.htm
Look, paraphrase the damn article instead of copying it. As far as your claim that you have a prominent political family in the Commonwealth of Mass-of-two-shitts, I wouldn’t see that as something to be proud of, as you already voted with your feet. We’re happy you’re there too – sleep in the bed you make. Rage: yes, A-MAD-jiHAD’s August 22nd plan is to wipe with the other hand and spread Hepatitis E to all the media idiots like Mike Wallace. Bubblerz: Gee thanks for straightening out the millions of us idiots. I just can’t for the life of me understand why Moslems are killing Moslems in countries like Indonesia, and the Indians over Kashmir, and the Africans in Darfur (over 100,000 killed so far this year (catching up to McDonalds’ number of people served), the Philippines, Sri Lanka, etc etc. Nowhere is the United States or the hated Jewish country (by Nazi organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood) involved. In fact Islam has been raping and murdering for 1,300 years as history reveals. But you’re right – we are brainwashed sheep (or so you’d like to think – sheep led to Allah’s slaughterhouse).
August 20, 2006 at 4:26 am
I have to wonder if anyone was around when all of this was set in stone, hand written down for the very first time before any of it was ever published for all to read and take into their own matters. No one knows exactly what will happen or when it will happen. I like to put this subject on the back of my mind and go on with my day, without worrying so much..worrying if today is the day the United States is attacked, nuked, what have you. I think the only way to guarantee our safety is to quit dicking around and to take action. How? I have no idea. I’m not a master mind at any of this. I just know I’m tired of hearing about innocent lives being taken, and I’m certainly tired of hearing about possible attacks..huge attacks.. on America. I know nothing I say has power or even matters to anyone else, but I think it’s about time my thoughts on this situation came out to play. So seriously, how can anyone take something written hundreds or thousands of years ago and think it will actually happen. I know none of us could have witnessed the actual writing of it. And I know people believe the Bible, the Koran, and everything else..and live by it all, and expect what it says. But how can we be sure? There are so many religions…which one is the true one? Which religion has the true ending?
August 20, 2006 at 5:25 am
just to clarify my post..it was a hypothetical statement. i’m not questioning which religion is real, which god is real, which piece of information is real. just take it into consideration. i’m a big picture type of person.
August 20, 2006 at 5:34 am
its so easy to sit here and blast each other anonymously on web…. look what we have become. america sits in her seat of untouchable power and if she remains like that she will fall. if we turn our backs on israel, we will fall. i don’t hate muslims. i don’t believe the same as they do, but i do not hate them. i don’t hate anyone. hate is the same as murder. the world is changing and we all have to roll with the punches. we can’t change the climate for the whole world, but we can help change it for those near us. share the message of love. let God’s love shine through you. we are at the end. as someone said earlier, i can’t “prove my beliefs with fact”, but i do have faith. we all have faith. you don’t know, but you believe that the lights in your home will come on when you flip the switch. thats faith. examine your heart. find out where you fit in this jumbo sized jig-saw we call life, and just make the best of it. love
August 20, 2006 at 5:58 am
Okay, and I’m sure everyone wants to know what and how I believe..maybe not, but for those who like to tell me what I believe, what I am scared of, and who I am basically, and how to live my life..I’m a believer of the Christian Bible. I have my own thoughts, and if everyone else can come on here and say what they have to say, then so can I. I’m not blasting anyone..there are no references to anyone in my posts. And I’m not saying anyone is wrong. I’m just throwing the obvious ..if any.. out into the open for insomniacs such as myself.
August 20, 2006 at 6:09 am
You guys are a buncha functioning retards, sooo American. Read a history book and stop watching and reading your local TV and papers. SHEESH!
August 20, 2006 at 6:13 am
To all you Chosen Ones (cause you look so good) and Bible Thumpers, answer me this? If religion was created by GOD (omnipotent et al.) and not man, why no mention of the dinosaurs? Hmm, why? M’kay?
August 20, 2006 at 3:50 pm
Very interesting blog.
Americanwoman–I have been researching the horrific plight of the Iranian women and the thought of living, as a woman, under such a monstrous system send chills down my spine. It is for this reason, the Iranian women and children, that I couldn’t just say “let’s nuke ’em or neutron them”….can’t we just find out where the aMAD Hatter is and selectively nuke him and his fascist clerics at their genocidal tea party????
On the flip side, when it comes to choosing the Iranian women or children over American women and children, there’s no contest. If we have to wipe out the country for our survival, so be it.
Eagle and Big Jake–
I’m locked and loaded, I make a mean pot of chili (forget sandwiches ’cause you boys are real men LOL), and I love a few good brewskis…so you can tell Vera she can stay in the kitchen.
August 20, 2006 at 4:14 pm
worriedsince16–
I would be lying if I said I wasn’t concerned with all that is going on in the world. I have young children; I have dreams that I am aspiring to accomplish and certainly don’t want the world to end. I am a christian and I know the Bible well.
Prophecy says that the world will end. I do not believe that armageddon will happen August 22nd; SOMETHING may happen that day but it won’t be armageddon. Not yet, at least. War will have to break out in a huge way because before armageddon, the man of the hour (Antichrist), will have to come onto the scene. He will cause peace to be established in the middle east, it will be enforced, and the world will look to him as its savior. Prophecy says this man will rule for 7 YEARS before the great war, armageddon, is brought about. I believe aMAD Hatter, who thinks by causing chaos in the world he is paving the way for the 12th prophet, Imam Mahdi, is actually paving the way for the Antichrist. I find it quite interesting that according to the prophecy of Imam Mahdi, when he “returns” he is supposed to rule the earth for 7 YEARS, making the world an Islamic state and purging it of infidels.
Some christians believe that there will be a rapture of the christian church before the Antichrist can be revealed. I guess as far as that belief is concerned, if it happens, great. If not, well, we’re going to be in for a really rough time…
It is frightening to realize world events and the Islamic fascists are beyond our control as ordinary people. The only thing we can do is turn to God for peace in our hearts, knowing that, in the end, all will be made right; nothing happens that He does not allow to happen. And if you don’t know how to defend yourself and your family, you might want to learn….
In the meantime, live everyday as if it were your last. If you love life, then LIVE!
August 20, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Red Dawn,
Welcome aboard.
Can’t wait to get a bowl of that chili.
“The only thing we can do is turn to God for peace in our hearts, knowing that, in the end, all will be made right; nothing happens that He does not allow to happen”. Amen
Have Faith , live a Courageous life, cherish your Freedom, help your friends, Love your family .And don’t forget to have a sense of humor!
One for All ,All for One.
AMERICA!
E PLURIBUS UNUM.
August 20, 2006 at 6:30 pm
Big Jake-
Just made a huge pot of chili yesterday for me and my husband and some friends so we could all sit down and watch some pre-season football. God I love this country!
You know chili’s always better on the second day so I’ll be right over with it!
On a less gloomy note, I believe we could topple the Iranian government as easily as we toppled the Afghan or Iragi government. I’m sure the women over there, at least the educated ones, would be thrilled. Hey, maybe we need to put the girls in power over there—guys, I’ve found the solution! Let’s topple all of the middle eastern moslem governments and put women in control. I’m sure they would be far more inclined to avoid war and chaos because women naturally want better for their children. Oh, wait…the moslems have to have someone to fight, so I suppose the moslem men would make jihad on the moslem women…well, now, THAT could work!
I know, I know, how politically incorrect.
August 20, 2006 at 7:08 pm
I think he’s going to push the button. He said it loud and clear:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,205883,00.html
August 20, 2006 at 7:33 pm
I don’t believe he has a “button” to push just yet.
Even if he did, Israel would obliterate Iran. They could obliterate every country in the middle east if they so desired.
I hope the Iranian leadership is not so delusional as to truly think they could take on Israel or the U.S.in any major way without being destroyed.
August 20, 2006 at 8:04 pm
Red Dawn,
I believe that Golda Meir said that there would be no peace in the middle east until Arab mothers loved their children more than they hated Israeli children. Pretty sad ,Huh?
By the way – Is that 3 alarm chili?
MMMMMMM…MMMM! say hello to Hubby for me .
August 20, 2006 at 9:12 pm
Bubblerz… If US/Israeli foreign policy is to blame for the Islamic extremest, then explain the Islamic extremist before America ever existed? Don’t be an ostrich, look at life in the eyes of an Israeli. They live in a country which was theirs before they were driven out and then returned to them. They are surrounded by nations which hate them and have tried to rid the area of them ever since. So, explain to all of us here what you think their foreign policy should be or better yet exactly which of their foreign policies you have a problem with…maybe it is self-preservation.
Israel attacks when it is attacked. It never prevokes, just defends…which it does quite well. They have to. Granted, they may get jumpy and preemptive but with good reason. Fear instilled from past attacks by its neighbors. If they did not, then they would be over run, killed and/or driven out yet again. People may not like the “Jews,” since they “own everything.” If this is the case, get off your ass and be a better doctor, lawyer, scientist or business person. They succeed because they want to. They have contributed more to your life now than any other nationality.
It would be sad to have to eliminate an entire people. However, it is those people who are trying to eliminate us. If there were history of peaceful coexistance between Islam and any other religion, we would not even be discussing this topic. The problem is there isn’t. They seek destruction to every infidel. It is either convert or be killed. This is what they do.
As far as going in and taking out the Iranian government, we could do that just as we did in Afgan and Iraq. The failure to this mentality is, “How long will relations last?” Sure they (The US supported govs of those lands) are “with us,” but in their hearts they are not. They loathe us. We did what they could not do themselves.
The people there were glad to see us come. We freed them from oppression; an oppression they have lived under longer than any of them have been around for. Yet, they still do not like us because we do not believe as they do. We are still infidels.
Bubblerz, if you were trapped and dying, and I came along you would be happy to see me. That is until I rescued you. Then you would go about your marry way and talk shit about me and tell your friends how you were just about freed when this brainwashed sheep helped you.
August 20, 2006 at 9:39 pm
I’m adopting Eagle’s method of reply:
#113 Eagle – NOW lost any credibility they had when they didn’t come out on record against President Clinton’s antics. Had Clinton been a Republican, we would have seen NOW blast him to the moon and back and everyone knows it. They are an ethically bankrupt group.
#111 Big Jake – I’m not a regular church goer, but I do believe in a higher being and I try to live my life by the 10 commandments. If everyone did that, this world would be in much better shape. Like you, I watched those Superman shows along with Batman and my favorite, Underdog. I love this Country and go back to saying to those who don’t … find some place you like better and move there. Stop trying to change this Country. Most of us like it the way it is. If you don’t, it’s okay, we’ll let you leave.
#120 Ricky – I’ll give you credit that you found a place you liked better than the US and you moved there. (I’ll give you a call when I need cheaper meds and you can give me a call when you need elective surgery.) Call the media in this country whatever you want but I can watch CNN, Fox, ABC, NBC, and CBS and get 3 different sides of an issue. Tell me how many sides of an issue Al-Jazz gives its viewers. In America, Hezbollah sympathizers can take to the streets in protest, burn our flag, say anything they want about our political leaders and live to tell about it. How long do you think an American doing the same in Tehran would last? In addition, these countries treat the carpet they wipe their filthy boots on better than they treat their women. If you were female, that might actually make you think twice about your opinions.
#131 – Red Dawn – yes it does send chills down the spine but I’m not afraid. I won’t wear their burqas, face scarves, robes, and anything else they think women need to be covered with. If things ever get to that point, they’ll be on the receiving end of guerilla warfare.
August 20, 2006 at 11:39 pm
Americanwoman–
I’m not afraid either. I’ll do ANYTHING to protect my two daughters from beasts like that. America originated the concept of “guerilla warfare” during the American Revolution. Back then, there were only 1/3 of Americans (the others too afraid to fight or siding with the British empire) who fought that war and we sent the world’s biggest empire packing. I hope that the moslems who wish to destroy this country realize that, for all the POLITICALLY INCORRECT American sheep that are out there wanting to “turn the other cheek” and who want to have “dialog” with the crazies realize that the ones who were willing to fight and die for our liberation in the revolution are still ALIVE and WELL today.
August 21, 2006 at 12:14 am
EAGLE ,AMERICANWOMAN,RED DAWN and all other interested parties:
Check this out. God Bless the USA
http://www.faithflashes.com/withyou.html
August 21, 2006 at 12:53 am
Red Dawn: I appreciate the comment. I am one who was raised in believing that there will be two “raptures” (although the word “rapture is not mentioned in my Bible-it is said to be the coming of Christ). The first coming of Christ (according to my Bible) will occur on a day when not only the Arab nations, but China and Russia and several other countries, excluding the States, will attack Israel. This marks the end of the church age. After the first coming, the seven years of tribulation follow..and as you said this is the time of the Antichrist. The Lord will come “down” a second time..and during this time he is to rule the world for 1,000 years and Satan is to be bound for 1,000 years. After these 1,000 years, there will be a judgement day. I can honestly say I am not entirely estute on the matter..if that isn’t obvious..which I’m sure it is. I know only of the armegeddon, not when it is to occur. I like to live believing what I have been taught for two reasons: one- I don’t like change..so basically, I wouldn’t adapt to believing otherwise and two- for comfort reasons. I like to believe that I, along with thousands others, will be taken from this earth before wars greater than anyone can fathom and the reigning of the Antichrist. Thank you for responding.
August 21, 2006 at 3:08 am
Worriedsince16… Who does like change, unless it makes us feel good. Being comfy is the place to be, also. On a real note, I would like to offer you these words of advice. It would be nice to be taken away before any real trouble shows itself. That is comfort and also reassuring. However, on the downside to this, if it does not happen then what? I can only say this. Do not lose your faith. People teach alot of different ideology. The main thing to remember is that it will be your faith which saves you. If being a Christian is real to you, then do not allow a teaching which only started in the late 1800’s be the basis of your last stand. God treated Israel badly for turning away from Him, but He never truly abandoned them. They went through everything and it was for purification and to bring them back to Him. In the event the church does not go, look to the lessons of Israel and stay steadfast. The Bible says many will lose their lives, but those who stay steadfast He will deliver.
Just my thought, but I think that if the rapture does not happen it will cause alot of “Chirstians,” to question “What else was I taught that is not correct?” If you believe everything the Bible says is true in what is going to take place, then it is going to get worse than anyone could imagine. This will be the shaking which Christ spoke of.
On the other hand, if none of it is true and there is no religion shit sure looks scary anyway you look at it.
I agree with my fellow poster here, just live your days the best you can, provide for your children and teach them to the best of your abilities. If the push of Islam or China or any other comes to my door they better expect NOT to get a kind welcome. I will defend my family with every last breath.
August 21, 2006 at 3:17 am
So Iran wants to wipe out Israel so the world can have another Islamic state. That’s all we DON’T need, another bastion of Islamic fascists to spread more hatred and murder! The enemies of Israel, throughout history, have shown over and over and over again how utterly stupid it is to shake their fist at God!
August 21, 2006 at 4:04 am
Big Jake–
That was beautiful.
worriedsince16–
I’m not sure how it all plays out, but I AM quite sure that the victor won’t be Imam Madhi riding a flying horse named Burqa.
Stay strong, stay true, reach out to all your people around you. Our God will not let us down. Be at peace, my friend. When the time comes, a better time will be at hand.
August 21, 2006 at 4:11 am
Onthisnote: that is my question a lot. I often wonder if any of it really will happen..if the Word is being translated correctly. I try to stay strong in my faith..and usually I do an excellent job. The only time it is ever faulted is at church..I often find myself questioning the pastor in my head..throwing questions at him..”What if you are wrong?” and “What makes you think you know how and when it will happen?” Childish questions..maybe. But they come to my mind every Sunday. The only thing he ever preaches about anymore is the rapture. His persistence causes me to question. Every Sunday morning and evening I can expect to question my faith..but any other time during the week, I am as strong as ever.
August 21, 2006 at 4:12 am
Long live Israel and the people of the free states…America, Canada, Britain, Australia…all the rest. We are brethern.
August 21, 2006 at 4:17 am
worriedsince16–
I have been through what you are describing with a pastor that placed too much emphasis on the rapture. If you are saved, you are saved. Period. We do nothing to merit this. There is not an invisible line drawn the way you live your life…if you belong to Him, you belong to Him.
Do not second guess.
August 21, 2006 at 5:01 am
Thought you’d like to read some simple American philosophy
—————-
Memorable John Wayne Quotes:
“Sure I wave the American flag. Do you know a better flag to wave? Sure I love my country with all her faults. I’m not ashamed of that, never have been, never will be. I was proud when President Nixon ordered the mining of Haiphong Harbor, which we should have done long ago, because I think we’re helping a brave little country defend herself against Communist invasion. That’s what I tried to show in The Green Berets and I took plenty of abuse from the critics.” – John Wayne
John T. Chance (Rio Bravo):
“Sorry don’t get it done, Dude.”
Sergeant John M. Stryker (Sands of Iwo Jima):
“A lot of guys make mistakes, I guess, but every one we make, a whole stack of chips goes with it. We make a mistake, and some guy don’t walk away – forevermore, he don’t walk away.”
John Bernard Books (The Shootist):
“I won’t be wronged, I won’t be insulted, and I won’t be laid a hand on. I don’t do these things to other people and I expect the same from them.”
Ringo Kid (Stagecoach):
“Well, there are some things a man just can’t run away from.”
Hondo Lane (Hondo):
“I don’t guess people’s hearts got anything to do with a calendar.”
Hondo Lane (Hondo):
“Yup. The end of a way of life. Too bad. It’s a good way. Wagons forward! Yo!”
Capt. Rockwell Torrey (In Harm’s Way):
“All battles are fought by scared men who’d rather be some place else.”
Colonel Madden (Back to Bataan):
“This kind of war, you’ve gotta believe in what you’re fighting for.”
Tom Doniphon (The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance):
“Out here a man settles his own problems.”
Duke Gifford (Operation Pacific):
“He was a good man. Make sure that it says so on the patrol report.”
Tom Dunson (Red River):
“Every time you turn around expect to see me. ‘Cause one time you’ll turn around and I’ll be there, and I’ll kill you, Matt.”
Marshall J.D. Cahill (Cahill, U.S. Marshall):
“Cause even grown men need understanding.”
Col. Michael Kirby (The Green Berets):
“Out here, due process is a bullet.”
Col. David Crockett (The Alamo):
“Republic. I like the sound of the word.”
August 21, 2006 at 5:34 am
to myles.
havn’t they ever taught you that Allah is Yhwy, who is G-d?
to mechadrum, I don’t agree with you up until the part about scripture. yea, yea, the end of the world is gonna happen soon, we should all kinda just get over it. but Jews were very similar to the muslims. Yhwy helped them many times in battle against peoples who did not claim Him as their god, or people that stood in the way of the Israelites on their way to the promised land.
sorry that this post is so late. I just found this article. and also my appologies to the two people I called out, if someone before me did this already.
August 21, 2006 at 7:27 am
“T” minus one day!!!! I think back to Harry Callahan who said, “Go ahead…Make my day!” And for all the pacifist – the great words of wisdom from Rodney King, “Can’t we all, jist git along?!” No Rodney, some people just want to riot, kill, and burn things to the ground…
#125 Worriedsince16: You REALLY should worry more about safety behind the wheel of a car as 45,000 people die each year in this country alone. (Hopefully that should put your concerns in order) PS: 1.5 MG of Melatonin should help you with your insomnia…
#127 weasel187: If someone murdered your loved one would you really equate that with someone who hates but does nothing physical? Just a rhetorical question…
#130 Kanook: Religion was created by man – God’s word was there before man, before this world, before the beginning of what we call time, and even before Canada where all the Dinosaurs still live and sometimes work…
.#132 Red Dawn – Yes!! Let’s go for the Chili! As far as the world coming to an end – the rebirth will occur. As a Christian you know that God has already won the great battle. With that in mind, I would rather make the spiritual transition (we call death) fighting evil than wasting away in a hospital at 99 years of age. If it is peace we are looking for, we can only achieve this through strength and determination to fight those who threaten us whether it is President AmadHater, or criminals taking over our neighborhoods…
#135 Kike el hombre: He said Israel hit the self-destruct button with the Lebanon invasion. Hey, Israel didn’t hit Lebanon that hard. Actually, by backing off they are allowing the world to see how ineffective the UN (Useless Nations) is in dealing with this problem so they can later on take Syria out as well. Don’t forget also that the Arabs (Iranians are Persians) are VERY worried about Iran’s growing influence. So I don’t think the Iranian leader is firing on all cylinders.
#139 Americanwoman: Thanks for fixing my reply method – the spaces look better! Nice valid points as well!
#140 Red Dawn: OBL had stated “I say to you William (Defence Secretary) that: These youths (Islamics) love death as you loves life.”
This was obviously years before our invasion (Afghanistan/Iraq) where he laughed at Clinton’s retreat from Mogadishu.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html
It was the precursor to what we now call 9/11 – something that happened BECAUSE we were thought of as weak. He NEVER thought Americans would react as we have because he (like most other Islamofacist) doesn’t understand Americans. While the news media shows the weak amongst us to the world, the strong quietly wait for the word…..GO!
#141 Big Jake: Very nice, TY
#143 Onthisnote: Very well put! Remember (worriedsince16) that it is about your relationship with HIM more so than anything else – worry not, trust in Him.
#144 J. Brown: Yea. Not a good thing to be on God’s bad side – Let’s just hope this country doesn’t turn against Israel as we too will be cursed.
August 21, 2006 at 12:34 pm
I haven’t seen (or recall) anyone providing links for a comparison of our Bible and the Koran. Try this one: http://www.lamblion.com/New08.php.
It’s very informative, but does contain some typical, conservative, “the-devil-is-behind-Islam” rhetoric. But, hey, you should expect that. What is interesting is the “thumb-nail” history of Mohammed, his “revelations,” how his works were compiled, and then how he “adjusted” the very tenents that he developed.
This is just a “Reader’s Digest” version of the events and someone has to have by now written an excellent expose on Mohammed, his life, and the Koran. I, by no means, consider it definitive; just a morsel to whet your appetite for more information.
So, which of the below fits you:
“The truth is out there.”
“The truth shall set you free.”
“You can’t handle the truth!”
August 21, 2006 at 2:07 pm
Regards to you All,
For those of you who are offended by Islam please refer to the real sources to learn about that beautiful religion rather than looking at extremist practistioners who we muslims dont regard as muslims. Plus don’t get the information from the biased media and governments who like to show Islam as a religion of tyranny and terror.
Please check the following books on this site
http://books.shiachat.com/
God be with you
Regards
Nader ( Lebanon )
August 21, 2006 at 3:35 pm
#152 DJ: The link you have states “error 404, Lost your way?”- Funny way for a ministry to put it (bad web link). One would have to suspect some kind of slant with reference to Mohammad, although most sources (even non-Christian) parallel the same disturbing history.
#153 Nader: Are you related to Ralph by chance? (sorry I couldn’t resist that) Anyhow – regards to you too! I’m sure that many Moslems are sincere and benevolent, although I am puzzled why Islamics are very slow to respond (if at all) to aid their OWN people in times of natural disasters – i.e. The great Tsunami off the coast of Indonesia, earthquakes in the Pakistani Mountains during last winter, floods, famine, etc. where massive aid and support mainly came from the USA – her Military and the citizens of “The Great Satan” as we in America are called by Islamic religious people. Because of the Internet, most of us DON’T believe our government and Media (who actually tries to hide the hideous part of Islam), but we view what Islamics post themselves such as the beheadings of helpless people screaming in fear and pain, gurgling in their own blood while Moslems saw their heads off yelling “Allah Akbar”. The rhetoric from the Sunni sect (Al Qaeda) and the Shia sect (Persian Ayatollahs, Imams, Hezbullies, etc) pretty much educates us all where we stand and that is with our backs to the wall. Islam IS about HATE (killing the infidel – Jews are monkeys, Death to America, etc), Jesus IS about LOVE – even your enemy! While Moslems pray to Allah for the destruction of America and dance in the streets (as they did) when the Twin Towers went down killing thousands indiscriminately, Christians pray for those in stricken countries, volunteer, and send hard earned money (aid) to victims of the same people who hate us. Yes it is true that there are extremist within Islam while most are not direct participants – but what we also see is the “choice” within your faith NOT to reform itself as Christians have by removing the doctrine of hate and Jihad. When your people do that, we will know that Moslems are willing to coexist peacefully with people considered “non-Islamic”. Until then, even those “pacifist” Moslems are enablers by contributing money for the Jihad even indirectly.
August 21, 2006 at 4:45 pm
#130 Kanook Says:
August 20th, 2006 at 6:13 am
To all you Chosen Ones (cause you look so good) and Bible Thumpers, answer me this? If religion was created by GOD (omnipotent et al.) and not man, why no mention of the dinosaurs? Hmm, why? M’kay?
first off the term is “Bible Thumbers” why would we “thump” it? what good is thumping going to do??
secondly, the book of Job makes mention of dinosaurs, i believe its in chapters 37 and 38.
August 21, 2006 at 5:22 pm
Someone please stop Stoognook from plagurizing even peoples’ questions from Yahoo Answers. Dude, come up with your own stuff. You bore us with your repeats of words gone by.
Eagle has said it again very nicely. The problem is exactly as stated. If you so called True Islamics do not consider these extremest muslims why do you put up with them? Why do you let them teach their hate?
As I stated in an earlier post, you know who they are and where there are. If they are teaching false doctrine, and misleading your people (I guess to the opposite place where good muslims go) they are worse than we are. You should have jihad against them and wipe them out so as eagle says, “we will know that Moslems are willing to coexist peacefully with people considered “non-Islamic”, ” and are not about what you say the extremest are for.
Again I say it is because you want them to continue to kill the infidels which are non-muslim. You are just as guilty as the terrorist or extremist for allowing them to continue.
No one has to listen to the media. Just look at history to see what Islam is about and what they have done. I don’t think FOX News was around when you guys started your quest to cleanse the world of the infidel. Convert or Be killed. I think Mohammad got that from the Inquisition.
August 21, 2006 at 5:29 pm
Worriedsince16…the best thing you can do is educate yourself. Do not listen to one person’s ideas and think “That is it.” Read, research and listen to your heart. The truth is out there, you just need to find it.
Questioning people is what has kept us alive for so long. If the congregation of Jim Jones would have questioned him, they might be alive today. If the memeber or Heaven’s Gate would have looked outside the Nike box and questioned their beloved leader, they would be alive today.
Questions are good, so keep asking and keep seeking til you find what you feel comfortable believing.
August 21, 2006 at 7:06 pm
#153 Nader “…that beautiful religion…” Hmmm. We “extremist practistioners who (you) muslims don’t regard as muslims” are no more extremist in our views than you in yours. We disagree with the patriarchal mind-set of your beliefs and the treatment of your women (#131 Red Dawn “…the horrific plight of the Iranian women and the thought of living, as a woman, under such a monstrous system…,” but agree to live and let live. I’m sure Red Dawn’s comments echo most American women’s and probably quite a few in the world as a whole. But don’t interpret our inaction as acceptance. As stated in another post above, when push comes to shove, we get, as Clint Eastwood said in “The Outlaw Josie Wales,” “plain mad-dog mean.” So, if you wish to live peacefully next to us in this world, go your way and we’ll go ours. But if some hoochie-coochie pop artists offends you, just walk away. If a modern women with rights threatens you, get used to it. This is the 21st century. Only the blind and isolated can appreciate an oppressive religion the likes of Islam. When given the chance to think, they will. Deal with it.
#154 Eagle. That’s odd. I copied the link from Google after querying what Christians think of the Koran (or something to that affect). Also kudos on the challenge to the “moderate” mulims reigning in their extremist brethren. I’d count on the sandwiches from Vera showing up first.
August 21, 2006 at 7:08 pm
re post #130 Kanook Says:
August 20th, 2006 at 6:13 am
To all you Chosen Ones (cause you look so good) and Bible Thumpers, answer me this? If religion was created by GOD (omnipotent et al.) and not man, why no mention of the dinosaurs? Hmm, why? M’kay?
Ok Kanook this one’ for you!
The Flintstones Frequently
Asked Questions List
——————————————————————————–
11. Hold on, didn’t the dinosaurs die out quite some time before the first humans appeared on Earth?
Yes, but this is fantasy! Live with it.
Table of Contents | Next FAQ
——————————————————————————–
This Page Maintained by John Paul Murphy
http://www.topthat.net/webrock/faq.htm
Flintstones, meet the Flintstones
They’re the modern stone-age family
From the town of Bedrock
They’re a page right out of history
Let’s ride with the family down the street
Through the courtesy of Fred’s two feet
When you’re with the Flintstones
Have a yabba-dabba-doo time
A dabba-doo time
You’ll have a gay old time
August 21, 2006 at 8:25 pm
[…] It’s also known as 27 Rajab and 31 Mordad, depending upon your calendar. Around the blogoshpere and elsewhere, various interpretations of the significance of August 22 have been offered. As I’ve reported, Farid Ghadry, the president of the Reform Party of Syria says that the Iranians have chosen August 22 for the date of their response because it is “the Night of the Sira’a and Miira’aj, the night Prophet Mohammed (saas) ascended to heaven from the Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem on a Bourak (Half animal, half man), while a great light lit-up the night sky, and visited Heaven and Hell also Beit al-Saada and Beit al-Shaqaa (House of Happiness and House of Misery) and then descended back to Mecca.” The idea has been seconded by Muslim historian Bernard Lewis. Zionist.com states that August 22 also corresponds “with the Islamic date of Rajab 28, the day Saladin conquered and entered Jerusalem,” and that says that there is a rumor that Ahmadinejad believes that on August 22, 2006, “the so-called ‘hidden’ Imam Mahdi who Allah has miraculously kept alive since his disappearance in 874 AD. . . . will return . . . and usher in an era of (Islamic) justice.” And I, myself, have offered that among Shi’ite Muslims, the date also corresponds with the date upon which Muhammad began his prophetic mission. […]
August 21, 2006 at 9:24 pm
I do not beleive in any sort of religion.
I do beleive that there are eccentric groups of people that are strong beleivers in religion.
And I beleive enough that there IS something to be scared about- in regards to a nuclear holocaust. Why everyone else should be involved is beyond me..
August 21, 2006 at 9:26 pm
how can you say you do not hate these people, and you’re trying to save them by fighting for them… when you make up the most revolting, racsit names for them.
You hate these people America, stop pretending you don’t.
August 22, 2006 at 2:25 am
QWERTY–
WE (Americans)do not hate these people. These PEOPLE hate us and have said so. Their religion and way of life is flat out intolerant of anyone else’s way of life or beliefs. They have stated they wish to kill (and have done so) any culture that does not believe as they do.
WE AMERICANS see no choice but to iradicate the threat before it truly come back to haunt us forever more.
WE HAVE NO CHOICE.
August 22, 2006 at 2:46 am
M.S.blood–
Perhaps you do not believe in any sort of religion. In America and many other civilized free countries this would be allowed.
In an Islamist country, you would be beheaded or stoned for such an outspoken thought. Or perhaps inprisoned and tortured for years. If you do not believe me, please go and google all of the sites Arab women have managed to put up categorizing the lack of rights they have and the atrocities many have endured by daring to speak out.
Unfortunately, unless you want to convert to Islam and live in this way, someone will have to defend the rights that you do have.
FREEDOM IS NOT FREE. There is always, and has always been, a price to pay.
August 22, 2006 at 2:48 am
You people are lunatics. I will, with others, sequester our Country back from idiots that don’t read or try to even fake understanding what this world and life is really about.
People that cannot see the other side of things fall prey to their own ignorant ways. Fear has overcomed your mental stability and you endanger all of us while you spew hate for other races, when you don’t even know what they’re about. You watch Fox News and read the daily standard and are on board with the PNAC, because you are weak. Weak people will destroy the world.
August 22, 2006 at 5:20 am
Finally somebody said something intelligent. I love how many people think they know exactly what the military will do. And the real story behind all the cover ups. Guess what… you don’t. I have never heard a group of people more high and mighty. And hateful.
Here is a scenario for you: oops you were born in Iran! You don’t believe the same way the radical religion in your country does. But I guess that doesn’t matter because you were born in Iran. And half the unUnited States wants you dead and your country “turned into a parking lot” Well sorry pal. Im sure everyone is already thinking oh shutup liberal or hippi or whatever name helps give you an excuse to continue to be ignorant. I wish everyone could give up hate for a little while. And see if they feel any better about themselves.
August 22, 2006 at 8:29 am
The world ends today 🙂
http://kaktose.wordpress.com/2006/08/22/the-world-ends-today/
August 22, 2006 at 9:06 am
Eagle..I think I love you..And American Woman..I don’t know why you object to wearing a borqa…it’s a great way to conceal the club to bash these creeps. And Vera..I’d love to see you hook up with a moslem guy…I’m sure you could talk some sense into him…and to the other moron who thinks 9-11 is the fault of American Corporations….give me a break…it wasn’t CEO’s piloting those planes. I’m so tired of all these bleeding hearts who think you can talk and reason with these loons..you can’t…the only thing that will fix their brain is a bullet.
August 22, 2006 at 11:11 am
america couldn’t win in vietnam, how will they win in iran? just like Alice in wonder land tale.. you dont know your countries real abilities. don’t watch superman or xmen movies too much children.
israel attacked hizbullah with the most advanced weapons, and hizbullah attacked them with forks and knives. what is the result?
118 israel soldier killed by hibullah, and 1100 civilians killed by israel not face to face. only one or two hundred of them are hizbullah guerillas.
this is a terrible result! consider if those hi tech weapons are with hizbullah, what would happen?
don’t dream boys. there are 1.5 billion muslims in the world, and they will exist until the end of time.
thanks to god that american state is more clever then citizens of america.
you don’t know much about the realities of the world. no need to argue.
i was born as a muslim in turkey. then i realized that there is no god. now every fellow muslim hates me:) i hate all religions and religious people.
oh today is 22 august. nothing happened! it is not that easy as you see. try to be rational.
August 22, 2006 at 11:18 am
Logic says–
“You watch Fox News and read the daily standard and are on board with the PNAC…” Well, either you spend a great deal of time watching FOX news yourself or you’re just yacking the typical, uninformed liberal rhetoric. How would you know ANY of these views are espoused on FOX news unless you watch FOX yourself? Well, never mind. Repeat what I said above. If you believe watching ANY network news channel gives you a clear picture of what is going on in the world, YOU need to do some major research (like many TRULY educated people do)and spend a couple of hours each day taking in the news from British, French, Arabic, Jewish, Japanese, Russian papers, articles, and commentary. Perhaps then you might see that your “logic” is based on faulty and/or inaccurate information, assumptions, and party politics.
Obviously you do not really understand what our little aMAD Hatter in Iran believes in or intends to do. Maybe not today, or tomorrow, but he certainly plans on doing it. I know it may be the “logical” thing to want to bury your head in the sand like an ostrich and some of what we are saying is making covering your eyes and ears difficult– unfortunately doing either of these things will not make the disturbing things happening in the world go away.
thanks logic–
“Here is a scenario for you: oops you were born in Iran! You don’t believe the same way the radical religion in your country does. But I guess that doesn’t matter because you were born in Iran. And half the unUnited States wants you dead and your country “turned into a parking lot”
This has not been the view point of many posts here in this context. This is completely taken out of context…several posters here, including myself, DO not hate these people and have expressed a real regret that any action such as “turning Iran into a parking lot” may have to be carried out. However, if it comes down to the safety of Americans and our allies versus the Iranians and Islamic terrorists, well, naturally most Americans’ choice would be a LOGICAL desire to survive. Now some of you out there might prefer to chop off your own heads and your family’s heads and hand them to aMAD and his rabid clerical tea party as opposed to taking care of the threat with appropriate action; it is people like us who will make the LOGICAL choice and make the tough decisions and save you from yourselves. 🙂
August 22, 2006 at 6:25 pm
#169 AnotherMAD from Turkey – I’ve got a few things for you to consider. First, it’s much easier (and wiser) for an enemy who can’t survive on a battlefield in man-to-man combat, to use guerilla warfare tatics. It’s especially advantageous when you know the opposing force (US or Israel) won’t stoop to that level. Put the war on this soil and you’re going to find out exactly what we’re willing to do to make sure we survive. It won’t be pleasant. Second, I don’t think I’d go so far to liken a fiducia rocket to a stick or knife. Third, there’s nothing wrong with a religion that teaches you to care for fellow man. As I mentioned, I’m not a churchgoer, but I do think mankind would benefit by living by the 10 commandments. I try to treat other people like I want to be treated. That doesn’t mean I’m gonna be walked on. You’ve gotta use common sense. Please note that Red Dawn, Big Jake, and Eagle didn’t attack me because I’m not a regular churchgoer. On the contrary, they have been supportive of most of my viewpoints in spite of the fact that I don’t go to church or know the Bible as they do. It’s not okay that your life is in jeopardy in Turkey because you have shun the Muslim religion. What does that tell you about the general practice of that religion in your country? I’d invite you to move here, but only if you’re willing to work for a living and look at women as an ally and equal rather than an evil force. Women in this Country helped their husbands forge the wild west. We may look weak but trust me when I say, we are not.
August 22, 2006 at 8:09 pm
This whole conflict is because of religion. Just Remember, religion is MAN MADE. That’s why it’s all screwed up most of the time. Christ rebelled against the religion of His day. That’s why they crucified Him. He came to expose all the errors and hypocrisy. But at least His message was of love and forgiveness. What’s Allah’s message? You have Muslims saying how beautiful the religion is and then you have Muslims that live to kill people that don’t think like they do. All in the name of Allah. There is only ONE TRUE GOD, and He has a name. And it’s NOT Allah. Our God is Adonai, Yahweh, Jehovah. And He has several more. All of them describing HIS personality. And His chosen people are the JEWS and you can rest assured that no Muslim or anyone else is ever going to be permitted to wipe them out. You can try, but you’ll always fail. There will always be a remnant left of His people. And HE gave the land Israel to THE JEWS. IT’S THERE’S. AND IF THE JEWS WOULD’VE DONE WHAT GOD TOLD THEM TO DO A LONG TIME AGO, THEY WOULDN’T BE HAVING TO PUT UP WITH ALL THE CRAP THEIR ENEMIES ARE GIVING THEM. Hey American Girl, you say you don’t go to church but you try to live by the 10 commandments. Good for you. But you should really grab a Bible and see what it has to say. Christianity is NOT a religion. It’s a way of life. It’s a relationship with JESUS CHRIST. And HE will return very, very soon. So, if I were you, don’t count on the 10 commandments to save you. It’s nice you’re a good person and I know you’re smart just from reading you’re blogs. But, get real smart. Get saved. Ask God to show you the Truth. He will. And don’t let the cares of this world and all the evil going on in it get you down. All these people were defeated at the cross. Satan knows it and he also know his time is running out. That’s why he’s working so hard right now. He doesn’t want to go to Hell by himself. And another thing. God doesn’t send anyone to Hell. You send yourself for not believing in the only begotten Son of God who came and died for YOU. (And if you were the only one in the world, He would’ve done it JUST FOR YOU!
God Bless YOU.
August 22, 2006 at 9:37 pm
Americanwoman: you are true, that i might be exaggerated things, everybody does here.
the viper: do you think jew are chosen people really? what are they chosen for? Yahuda betrayed Jesus, he is chosen to betray maybe.
dont think that you are something just because america is on your side for today. nothing lasts too long, it just depends on another serious global economical crisis to leave you alone in hundreds of millions muslim arabs. when there will be no more petrol, you will be left alone in the wolf dinner. christians don’t like your kind, muslims dont like, you are the most hated society in the world.
all jews think that they are chosen, and consider every other people as animals that created to serve them. this is a sick belief. i wish my country also had a similar belief system:) jews rules we talk.
Americanwoman, personally i dont accept boys and girls are equal. i consider girls much more precious than boys.
if i was a prophet and didn’t seen any acceptance by girls in adolescence, if the girls didn’t like me and hurted me, then i would tell my people that the girls are secondary class of people, they should be beaten if doesnt act as their husbands expectations, and they should cover their entire body like a prisoner. who knows.
maybe i should come to america:) the place that everyone can tell every thought they have freely.
but america is a place of hard work. people must work so hard there for life.. we are very relax here, we are poorer but comfortable:)
August 22, 2006 at 9:47 pm
“Conquest, no plan, hudna, dhimmi” How many catch-phrases do we have here? We could start a 22 August Bingo contest!
The US does not need a pretense to smash Iran or the Norks. Only the Lefties need some sort of reason. The intransigence, international crimes of terror and counterfeiting by both Iran and North Korea are ‘reason’ enough.
War is Diplomacy by other means!
WAAAUGH!!!
August 22, 2006 at 9:59 pm
[…] Go see Armageddon Cocktail Hour. Lots of good stuff in the comments! […]
August 22, 2006 at 11:17 pm
#173 It’s viBer, not viPer, although I wish I was a viper sometimes.
What were the Jews chosen for? They were chosen as the Line of people that would bring forth the Messiah, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world. The majority of Americans will always be on the side of the Jews because the majority of Americans are christians and christians know the Bible teaches that God will Bless those who Bless Israel, and those who curse Israel, God will curse. Read the Bible. It’s Gods word to mankind. And Jews arn’t the terrorists. They have every right to protect themselves. They have every right to exist and be left alone. They have enemies on every border that want nothing more than to destroy them. That little tiny country and all the millions of Muslims around them, yet they still survive, and are strong. Why? Because God has a veil of protection around them. You can hate them all you want, it doesn’t matter. Jesus said not to fear when people hate you, because they hated Him first. Israel is in the palm of God’s hand, and NOTHING will happen to them unless God allows it for His own reasons. In contrast, Muslims hate everybody, even each other. I’ve never seen such a group of people that are so in love with killing innocent people in such inhuman ways. They even kill their own people. They’re so consumed with hatred it’s pathetic, and you Jews “sick”. Give me break, pal. Muslims think they will be rewarded for these horrible acts. Well, I’ve got news for you. They’ll be rewarded alright. One of the things God hates is “hands that shed innocent blood”. All your martyrs are a bunch of crispy critters right now. And where do you come up with the thought that all Jews think people are animals created to serve them? Jews only defend themselves. They didn’t start this thing.
August 23, 2006 at 3:52 am
#160 Armageddon Cocktail hour: Speaking of Farid Ghadry, why not press our leaders to provide Farid a seat at the UN? Not that it would do any good (Useless Nations) BUT it would be a great symbol, no?
#161 M.S. blood: You’re on the right track actually. Man makes religion, which is always fallible. Get away from organized religion and experience a “personal” relationship with God and you will find love.
#162 QWERTY: How’d you ever come up with a name like that! You stole my password! LOL
#165 Logic: I’m so happy to finally see someone stand up and take control of our country, thanks from all of us. Big task ahead of ya there getting the Jennie back in the bottle. You need to get your people back on the plantation watching CNN and reading the NY Times, LA Times, Washington Post, and listening to NPR.
#166 thanks logic: You’re way too emotional for logical thinking. It’s been said here that Persians (Iranians) are good people who (70%) actually like America (imagine that!). Maybe (I don’t claim to know) the plan is for our military to help the opposition (if needed) to gain control from the radicals if real elections were ever held.
#168: I love you too 🙂 – Hey if the Moslems learned to love, maybe grass would grow over there!
#169AnotherMAD from Turkey: Our politicians lost Vietnam – we had rules of engagement that restricted us from doing what a military does best. This could have been because Vietnam was a conflict and never declared a war since bankers funding the North Vietnamese could’ve been tried for treason. As far as Iran, change is brewing from within.
Israel fought that war with limitations imposed on it by a liberal leader. The thought apparently is to expose the UN peacekeeping force as ineffective so they can finish the job in the future when Hisbullies fire more death at innocent civilians in the near future. Why they need to justify anything to a Jew hating world is beyond me. We also know that many of the “1100” civilians were Hisbully reservist and people that were MADE to stay as corpses for CNN cameras.
Not all 1.5 billion Moslems are united, as you may know. There are serious differences between the Shias, Sunnis, Kurds, and other sects that make up your figure (actually 1.3 billion but who’s counting). Most Moslems in this world are killed by Moslems so maybe the problem starts with the common denominator: Islam. Look, there’s plenty of room in this world for opposing beliefs – we in America have a history of welcoming all types (even Jehovah Witnesses!) AS LONG AS THEY ARE PEACEFUL and respect others while happily coexisting.
Religion is man made and subject to corruption and worse as mentioned earlier – Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc. If God exist, then he is independent of these religions that sour His name and lead people astray.
#171 Americanwoman: You are 100% just that! 🙂 BTW, I’m not a churchgoer either although I do have a strong belief system.
#173 AnotherMAD from Turkey: I think viber meant well although he is a bit immature about it (even if he is 60). Maybe he should pray to the Lord for wisdom in reaching out to people rather than driving them away (which could be a sin).
As far as what you think of the US: America is made up of all kinds of people – many just like you. She is not just a country; she is an idea and way of life. You have the freedom to excel or fail, work hard to have much, or just be satisfied with the bare necessities. You can worship – or not, vote for your candidate or stay home. It IS the land of the free and the home of the brave. (PLAY BALL!)
August 23, 2006 at 4:25 am
Eagle …Bull’s eye
“America is made up of all kinds of people – many just like you. She is not just a country; she is an idea and way of life”.
August 23, 2006 at 4:52 am
Eagle: It’s funny you say that..I got in a wreck today (the 22nd)..luckily enough..on my part anyway, it was only a fender bender..the girl who hit me reached down to answer her cell phone and didn’t notice me stopped at a stop light, and ran into the back of me going 45 mph. Believe me, on top of being worried about being attacked by other nations, I am VERY worried about driving around town. I always expect to be hit..my worst fear is the drunken driver. I worry a lot. It’s a bad habbit of mine and trust me, I have been working on it for years. And I have no insomnia problem..I wrote that just to write it.
August 23, 2006 at 10:29 am
Eagle: You’re reply to #173 saying I meant well but I’m immature even if I’m 60. Please let me clarify. I’m not a HE, I’m a SHE. I’ve been married 20 years and have two children. One is in college on a full scholarship and the other is a foreign exchange student. I have a Masters Degree in Business-Accounting, AND a Bachelors in Political Science. My husband and I own and operate a very successful business. If I sound immature because I KNOW what I believe and am not afraid to stand up and be counted, forgive me. I try. I believe God has blessed me, my family, and our business. It is my duty to share the gospel and the TRUTH. I’m passionate about my beliefs, just as everyone who’ blogging seems to be. I’m a reasonable person and always enjoy a good debate. There’s the way I see things, the way others see things, and then there’s the TRUTH. I base what I believe on what the BIBLE teaches, which is TRUTH. I will never exchange the TRUTH for a LIE, no matter how easy, selfish, and convenient. If that is immature, so be it.
August 23, 2006 at 11:29 am
hey Viber, i loved your belief and now i think that the only true religion is Jewish religion.
i want to be a Jew soon! how can i be a Jew honey? or how can Eagle be a jew? can anybody convert himself to a Jewish even he or she didn’t born as a Jew?
i really like jews, my only problem with them is there is no way to be one of them:)
did anybody see a muslim like me before?:)
is it true that christian inquision courts were burning girls because they are witches. or torturing people?
muslims never burn people. they cut hands and foots and heads.
every religion is the same, but what makes europe or america different is they are not dominated by the rules of religion anymore.
countries that are ruled by religious doctrines have no place in this new world.
take care people!
August 23, 2006 at 12:23 pm
AnotherMad from Turkey–
I believe viber is a christian, since she expressed belief in Jesus Christ. If she is jewish (by race) then she is a christian Jew. But I don’t believe she ever said she was Jewish or not. Regardless, viber, I believe you expressed precisely why we as American christians support the Jewish state of Israel and why the Jewish people are the chosen people.
We all become “chosen people” once we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.
Americanwoman and Eagle–
I am not a churchgoer (currently) either as I do not care for manmade religion but a real relationship with my Lord. Not to say that those that go do not have a personal relationship, just not for me at the present time.
AnotherMad–
” every religion is the same, but what makes europe or america different is they are not dominated by the rules of religion anymore.
countries that are ruled by religious doctrines have no place in this new world. ”
Why didn’t you express this belief early on? Methinks you enjoy playing Devil’s Advocate, no? 🙂
August 23, 2006 at 2:04 pm
“..That’s the problem with those emotionally religious fanatics – they act without logic and intellect…”
So does Busy. Did he ask any of the american public before going to war. Did he prove that Iraq had done anything to US soil and the pretext that they might have wmds when all they had was empty sand. Only later to say that it was an honest mistake and put america into a huge debt. Whose going to pay it. Your children will face the debt through tax paying dollars. When will the dumb american red necks wake up.
“The strong white race will survive and the Liberal’s and the evil brown will become extinct..”
Strong white race. PHHHFFFTTTT…give me a break. Google father of internal medicine (ibn sina) and algebre. Point being, every civilization has a cycle. The romans reigned for a thousand years and they’re cycle ended. The western civilization starting from the brit empires are relatively new. So its got nothing to do with the red neck white trash race. The muslims and the mongols occupied half the world before this. If you are any literate or if you ever went to college, you would know your world history…
“…Texasborn Says: Keep an eye on Venezuela..Hugo Chavez is up to something..he’s in bed with the jihadists…”
You represent a red neck state. People like you hail Ann Coulter and her misguided lies that allure you people to beleive every word that the technically inempt republicans tell you. Keep listening to them. You are already a trillion dollars in debt. YOUR TAX PAYING DOLLARS IS PUTTING YOU INTO FURTHER DEBT…wake up u moron…
“…These Persian suicide statesmen spent 8 bloody years fighting Iraq (ended in a stalemate) and what did it take us to conquer Iraq – (3 weeks?) not to mention Afghanistan (a country no military in 5,000 years could conquer)…”
AHAHAHAHAHA…OH WAIT..LET ME CATCH MY BREATHE…HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH…you dumb freak, the war on iraq and afghanistan was won because there were no armies fighting there. The US death toll in Iraq in three years is higher than the death toll in vietnam in its whole war. Keep your stats straight. Google it up. Plus america is high on debt. Whose going to pay it. YOU TAX Payers are. When are you going to learn. IF you had gone to college and taken a course in econonics, you would have known, that a war in iran will not only mount to great loses of US interests, but will soar oil prices so high that america will go into recession. Even now with the war in lebanon, oil prices are record high. Whose going to control it, Your president bush…lol…
“…Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is the New Hitler…”
Did he attack on any country as a pretext and based on a lie. UHHH..no he didnt. Did Bush…lets see…two countries…
“…Are you aware that over 100,000 blacks in Darfur…”
get your facts straight. the biggest number of ppl killed in modern conflicts is the japanese in world war two when us dropped the bomb on two of their cities. Call it greater good or greater evil. secondly, get ur US history shit together. There were close to a few million indegenious red indians living in the NOrth americas. NOw there are a few thousands. They were all butchered by your forefathers you cave living animals…
“…WAKE UP SHEEP. IRAN IS ABOUT TO (NEXT WEEK) TURN ITS ENTIRE OIL INDUSTRY TO EUROS WHICH WILL SPIN THE US ECONOMY INTO A LITERAL DEPRESSION..THE UNITED STATES “HAS” TO STRIKE IRAN SOON, OR IT WILL SUFFER ECONOMICALLY. SEARCH FOR “IRAN OIL BOURSE”…
whose the caveman now. does this sound like a normal selfless human being. or a radical selfish person who wants to nuke another country (iran) just because he wants to drive his mustang and have cheaper oil. shame on you you primitive creature. shame on your worthless soul.
August 23, 2006 at 5:38 pm
to Knocking some sense into the US white trash..
“AHAHAHAHAHA…OH WAIT..LET ME CATCH MY BREATHE…HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH”you dumb freak, the war on iraq and afghanistan was won because there were no armies fighting there. The US death toll in Iraq in three years is higher than the death toll in vietnam in its whole war. Keep your stats straight. Google it up.”
OK you better hurry back to your tv set ,you are missing your Jerry Springer show
and by the way check your facts
Vietnam War (1964–1975)
Total servicemembers 8,744,000
Serving in-theater 3,403,000
Battle deaths 47,410
Other deaths in service (theater) 10,789
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 32,000
Nonmortal woundings 153,303
Living veterans 8,295,0001
Gulf War (1990–1991)
Total servicemembers 2,225,000
Serving in-theater 665,476
Battle deaths 147
Other deaths in service (theater) 382
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 1,565
Nonmortal woundings 467
Living veterans 1,852,0001
add 2500+ for Iraq occupation
God Bless our Troops. God speed their return!
FREEDOM IS NOT FREE. There is always, and has always been, a price to pay.
August 23, 2006 at 6:15 pm
knocking some sense into the US white trash–
Oh well, I suppose if my views make me “U.S. white trash” in YOUR opinion, I’ll get over it.
BTW, I’m sure you’re college educated but you might want to brush up on your grammatical skills.
Geez, where do these people come from?
August 23, 2006 at 6:21 pm
knocking some sense into the U.S. white trash–
Oh well, if my views make me “U.S. white trash” in your highly articulate opinion, I’ll get over it.
BTW, I’m sure you’re extremely well-educated but you might want to brush up on your grammatical skills.
Perhaps “Google” could provide you some assistance there.
August 23, 2006 at 6:24 pm
Sorry for repeating myself guys!
Just wanted to add some adjectives and give some helpful advice to our friend. 🙂
August 23, 2006 at 6:48 pm
To: “knocking…”
It’s quite obvious that you did not benefit from your “education.” There are numerous grammatical and spelling errors in your “rant,” and that’s all it is. Just another example of people who can’t think for themselves and quote ignorant, pacifist, liberals that have NO CLUE as to what’s going on in the world around them.
Now, what since internal medicine and algebra have the muslims invented/created/established? Ooh, ooh, I know! World instability and an environment of fear that prevents people WORLDWIDE from being able to live a normal life in their own countries. Yeah, that’s Nobel material.
The ONLY thing I’ll give the terrorists credit for is that they have taken guerrilla warfare to heart in a bad way. They aren’t just thinking outside the box, they’re inventing new boxes. As I said in a post earlier they don’t have uniforms, carry/wave a flag, and adapt to their surroundings all too well. If you don’t see that as a threat then I feel for you.
Just because we don’t hear everything you think we need to know doesn’t mean we have a right to know. There’s such a thing as operational intelligence which means, to put it in simple terms you might understand, “keeping one’s cards close to the vest.” We didn’t broadcast on the BBC before the D-Day landing in WW II what beaches we were going to assault. The same goes for today’s war on terrorism. The “average Joe/Jane” doesn’t care what going on around him/her. They just want to be secure in their minds that our government is looking out for them. We need the surveillance programs we have (and more) to counter the terrorists to protect us from future attacks. Whether you want to believe it or not that the government is doing just that, then that’s your right. But in my humble opinion your are grossly uninformed.
In the situation we face in this day and age we must realize that who we fight do not play by the rules, have no value for human life (including yours), and will stop at nothing, to include killing people of their own religion/belief, to realize their goal: world-wide domination of the muslim faith and sharia law.
If that’s the way you care to live I suggest you move to the middle east right now and get a good place in line to pay the tax to allow you to continue to believe in what you want. Oh, I forgot, that’s out the window. You’ll have to convert to Islam. Ooops. Never mind. They want to kill you. Blindfold and cigarette?
August 23, 2006 at 6:58 pm
#182 Red Dawn, no I am not Jewish, but I am a christian and I love the Jewish people. I agree, we’re all God’s people when we accept Christ. Thank you for being supportive of me. I was sure I’d get attacked by everyone blogging, especially by Eagle, which made me feel bad because I really like him. He did make me analyze myself all day, wondering if maybe I am immature. I certainly hope not. I love people and want peace, but I don’t think it’s possible. I get a kick out of AnotherMAD. I don’t know what to think of him other than he’s got some issues. Anyway, it’s been fun.
August 23, 2006 at 7:06 pm
Hey viber…mitts off of Eagle. I already told him I thought I was in love with him and he told me he loved me back, so I get first dibs.
August 23, 2006 at 8:01 pm
Knocking US White Trash: It’s always easy to be a BIG MOUTH when nobody knows who you are. I’m sure you must’ve had the shit kicked out of you most of your life. You’re not only ignorant of your stats, you spell as bad as you think. You’re an idiot. Red neck white trash, huh? You can bet everyone of those Texan red necks could pulvarize you if you had the balls to face one. But you won’t. You’ll either hide behind some woman’s skirt (if you’re not wearing your own) or get shot in the back running away from a fight. So shut the hell up, coward.
And before I forget, lovesamerica, you need to get a boyfriend.
August 23, 2006 at 10:12 pm
hey..new person here. there really is no point debating on the subject of religion or politics..because in general, there are so many points of view, there’s no way anyone could win the argument.
August 24, 2006 at 12:30 am
Duck Hunter, If you’re going to get in on this thing, get in on it, or go hunt some ducks.
August 24, 2006 at 1:27 am
see that’s all you people do on here..try to be rude to everyone else to make yourselves look like you are something special…ok not everyone on here does that..a select few..
August 24, 2006 at 1:50 am
whaa whaa whaa all the way home.
August 24, 2006 at 1:53 am
i don’t recall whining like a baby…oh wait, that was you i heard..ok i’m done.. yall need to go talk about the war and arabs and religion and whatever else.
August 24, 2006 at 1:59 am
duck hunter, you’re right. There’s no winning an argument when there are so many opinions. It’s not really arguing anyway. People just like to throw things out there and see what others have to say. I’m about done with this thing. And don’t take zealot’s comments personally. You can tell he’s not wrapped too tight.
August 24, 2006 at 2:09 am
“viber”..you are very right..and i figured that after he/she replied to my post with “whaa whaa…” i won’t take his/her comments personally..i’m better than that.
“knocking”… what is your obsession with name calling? are we in elementary school again? you don’t have to call people freaks or dumb rednecks..i mean unless that makes you feel better in which case you need to grow up a little. i’m not from texas, but i am from the south..and quite frankly we “dumb rednecks” aren’t as dumb and unsophistocated as you think.
ok, duck hunter is checking out..there’s no need to get all huffy puffy over this.
August 24, 2006 at 3:16 am
to Knocking some sense into the US white trash..
Some friendly advice…
“Get your facts first, then you can distort them as much as you please.”–Mark Twain
August 24, 2006 at 11:41 am
viber and duck hunter–
What most of us enjoy doing here is debating and finding solidarity with people of like mind.
We’ve generally stayed on topic but every now and then someone like “knock some sense into your own head…I mean U.S. white trash” lashes out with just such a rant and the topic spins off a little ways.
There are almost as many points of view on this Iran-armageddon thing as there are on religion and politics and they are rather related, don’t you think?
August 24, 2006 at 8:02 pm
Okay, okay, I owe Duck Hunter an apology. I’m sorry Duck Hunter. I’m really not as rude as I sound. I was ticked yesterday because of the “knock some sense into your own head, U.S. white trash” crap and I was hoping more people would tell this clown where to go. And you were too nice when you joined in. Sorry ’bout that. I do take some offense to Viber saying I’m not wrapped too tight. There’s the muslim on here that isn’t a muslim any more, says he’s an atheist and then gets sarcastic to Viber that he wants to be a Jew, there’s the white trash guy/gal that can’t spell or write a descent sentence that the knocks the U.S., the greatest country in world, and you have women falling all over Eagle like he’s some 6’2″ pretty boy they’re hoping to snag, when in reality, he’s probably some balding, pencil neck with thick glasses, and you say I’m not wrapped too tight!!?? C’mon. Cut me some slack. And yeah, Red Dawn, I think this Iran-Armageddon thing and religion & politics are all related. Too many patriotic, good Americans have been quiet too long. The rest of the world thinks we’re weak because we don’t hit back hard enough. They saw off heads and we think we can negotiate. It’s frustrating. I can’t help it that I get really angry. But, Duck Hunter, you’re a good person from the South, and I love the South, so please don’t hold my rudeness against me.
August 25, 2006 at 12:20 am
Just trying to get a pole of Bush supporters. And who agrees with the war. Should we take the troops out? I’m just curious. I am in the military and about to be deployed and I don’t know where my head is at right now. It would be nice to hear some of Americas’ opinions. Try to picture YOURSELF going over there with a posibility of never coming back. Thanks.
August 25, 2006 at 12:21 am
“zealot”..apology accepted. i know the days you speak of..being ticked off and taking it out on forums. i have things to say to “knocking”, but i have already said them in a previous post. trust me, you are not alone on that one.
on your note about “good americans being quiet too long..” yes, i agree. the “good americans”, as you say, spend too much time watching cspan and fox news, and yelling at the television rather than acting on it. get up! “practice what you preach!” whether it be to the television or a forum or a town meeting.. don’t be silent.
“red dawn”..i understand what the point of this website is, and why the creator of it also added in the “submit comment” button. i’m just saying people shouldn’t take offense over something that is anonymously written online, and definitely shouldn’t try to win the argument by beginning name calling and religion bashing..(and i mean who even cares what side of the country one is from? we are one country.)..because in all reality, you can’t win with religion, politics, what have you. a final decision may be made, but that doesn’t mean you lose or win. okay, this is off the topic of the website like you have pointed out.
August 25, 2006 at 12:30 am
(sorry for the double post, but i wanted to answer the pole for “question”)
“question”…i support bush for several reasons, but his decision in keeping the troops at war is not one of them. he needs to quit taking vacations and be a president. i give you thousands, millions even, of props for being in the military. honestly, you are a hero. i can imagine what your head is going through. i am not in the military, but my grandfather was in the air force. he was sent to vietnam..even though the americans should have stayed out of that war. he never came back. his plane was shot down while he was delivering amo and other things. i know americans are in danger every day, and the muslims want to whipe us off of the face of the earth, but it’s time to bring the troops home. i would like to know what our troops do over seas nowadays..seriously. maybe knowing what they actually do everyday would change my mind.
August 25, 2006 at 1:10 am
Question: I think President Bush is a good man, and I do believe we have to stop these terrorists, but I don’t have a military mind. I know nothing about warfare, so I can only trust that those in power know what they’re doing. My brother is a VietNam Vet, and my father won the bronze star fighting in Italy during WWII. I have great respect for our troops, and I promise you, I will pray for you “Question” throughout the day EVERY day. I can understand your fear. I know I wouldn’t want to be deployed over there. I also have a 19 year old son in college, and the thought of him going over there scares me. He has told me several times that he wants to join the ROTC, and he feels he should do his part in protecting the country, which I admire him for, but as a Mom, it just makes me quiver inside. As Duck Hunter said, you are truly a hero, and my prayers that God will protect you from all harm and danger are already being said.
August 25, 2006 at 2:39 am
I don’t care what side of the country anyone is from. When it comes down to it, we’re just Americans. I love the South because they have a lot of hospitality and are warm and friendly. However, I’m a New Yorker. And I love New York. You can understand what 9-11 did to me. So when these “hate Americans” get on here, and these muslims that have no respect for human life do their butchering to some American soldier just because he’s an American, it just sparks something in me. 9-11 hit all of America, but New Yorkers…well, I guess you just have to be one to really understand.
August 25, 2006 at 2:51 am
Question–
My husband’s son just got out of boot camp and was sent to Okinawa and we worry about him possibly being deployed to the middle east. But HIS stepfather was a private officer in Irag BEFORE he joined the marines and he came back to the U.S. missing an arm and a leg and a good part of his inner organs after a convoy he was in was blown up by a mine laid by insurgents.
Brave boy; obviously believes in this country and what he is fighting for.
I trust Bush. I believe that the Islamic threat HAS to be confronted and something done about the middle east. Better to engage them in fighting, and if they don’t want democracy, encouraging infighting there. Sorry state of affairs but unfortunately the way it is. By fighting them there, our troops defend us here.
zealot–
We all get mad when ignoramuses post irrational rants here…that or laugh at the complete idiocy! LOL!
Certainly we as Americans have enough to contend with without encouraging divisions among those who have like minds.
duck hunter–
To bring the troops home will only worsen the situation. The moslems will only see our withdrawal as weakness and proclaim this throughout their streets. It will only embolden them. We have to stay the course and hand the control incrementally over to the Iraqis, which is what we’re doing.
When is the last time, no matter how many times they’ve threatened or tried, that the radical Islamists have been able to launch a successful attack against us on home soil since 911??? Something to think about.
August 25, 2006 at 3:00 am
I will NEVER forget 911–not what I was doing at the time, what I was thinking, what I was praying…and the images I saw on T.V.
I’m not from N.Y. but I guarantee you, zealot, I was N.Y. THAT day and all out American about what I wanted to see happen to those murdering b@$tards. Nobody does that to MY people and gets away with it! Thank God we had a president in office like Bush insted of some politically correct pansy. The world (as a whole) may not like us now, but I know they sure as anything respect what we’re willing to do to get payback.
August 25, 2006 at 3:38 am
“red dawn”..i like your enthusiasm about pay back. i too feel the same way about it..in this situation. i just need some peace at mind that our troops are actually needed over there. what if we brought them home, and nothing was to happen? i know the chances of nothing happening in that situation are VERY slim to none.. i have a blank and questionable mind on the situation in iraq. partly because i am not there myself, experiencing the war. like i said, if i knew that our troops weren’t just wasting their time over there, my mind may change about bringing them back home.
August 25, 2006 at 3:44 am
I want to start by saying thank you for your thoughtful words. I also want to add an angle that I want everyone to seriously think about before answering…If you had to go to Iraq tomorrow, would you believe that this war is worth your life? And if you are a parent, is it worth your childs’ life?
I don’t want everyone thinking that I’m scared to go. That is not it at all. The way I look at it is if I go then that means somebody gets to come home. Which in turn could save that individuals’ life. What scares me is thinking that what if all of this has been about oil the entire time. Please try to understand what I’m saying before you judge me. I love this country and will support it until I die. But I don’t think anyone should have blind faith when it comes to a government.
August 25, 2006 at 3:49 am
Excellent OP/ED piece in the NY Post today by Ralph Peters.
He says that the Iraqi experiment in Democracy is the Arabs last chance to enter the civilized world and the 21st century.
He states:
“Iraq doesn’t have a democracy in any meaningful sense. It isn’t even a nation. Iraqis didn’t vote for freedom. They voted for revenge against each other”.
“In the immediate aftermath of Operation Iraqi Freedom, I argued that the only realistic solution was to break Iraq into three pieces. What we lacked the guts to do, elections have done. The pretense that an Iraqi national identity exists or ever will exist can be sustained no longer.
Iraq doesn’t have a government. It has a collection of warlords, demagogues and thieves with official titles. It’s time to put our own politics aside and face reality: If Iraq’s elected leaders won’t stop looting their country long enough to pull together and defeat the foreign terrorists, internal insurgents and militias killing Iraqis, we should not ask our troops to defend them”.
In a way we are to blame. Our arrogance
in assuming that the middle eastern moslems think and feel as we do in regards to form of government and way of life.
It’s like the guy who tried to convince a group of cannibals to become vegetarians –
(“It’s a more healthy lifestyle,better to cut down on red meat”).
-and ended up as the main course.
We better start thinking about what’s good for America first and then worry about the rest of the world.
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/arabs_last_chance_opedcolumnists_ralph_peters.htm
August 25, 2006 at 12:26 pm
If we leave, Iraq is vulnerable to Iran.
We cannot allow Iran to become more powerful in that region than it already is.
I believe we had to go into Iraq because whether or not Saddam had weapons of mas destruction, he was quite ambitious in his desires to take over the middle east.
We (for some reason) do depend on oil from this area of the world…everyone does and we can’t allow a bunch of little Hitlers and Mad Hatters to use it for leverage over us.
Can anyone tell me why, aside from the dems whining about the reindeer in Alaska and how drilling in Anwar would destroy the area, we aren’t doing just that instead of worrying about any oil supply from the middle east?
Question–
Yes, I do support you going to Iraq and fighting for us because you take the fight there instead of allowing it on home ground. You have the chance to kill off many terrorist thugs that otherwise might be strategizing another attack on American soil.
Quite frankly, maybe we just need to give these people what they want and keep them living in the 12th century. These people want to hate their moslem brothers and jewish neighbors more than they want to love their children by providing a safe, peaceful, prosperous environment for them to grow up in. So maybe the way to deal with them is to continue to destabilize govenments that become too powerful. The people, it seems to me, will generally take the opportunity to increase their misery and bloodshed and make their situation increasingly worse. Certainly if they’re busy killing one another, they are far less focused on becoming a threat to the world.
Big Jake–
Very good article. Sounds like someone as disgusted by these people as I am.
August 26, 2006 at 2:50 am
My concern with our involvement in Iraq stems from the double standard applied to the conduct of the war.
We are held to the “Marqis of Queensberry Rules ” (the Geneva Convention) while the insurgents specifically target civilians, torture and kill at will, wear no uniforms, and are offered amnesty as long as they did not intentionally harm fellow Iraquis.
Harming Americans is ok. This from the Iraqi government we support.
I don’t know what the answer is but I think it is strange that we are putting the Haditha 8 on trial for their lives and kow-towing to political correctness while these monsters are running wild.
Marines are trained as fierce combat soldiers ,not policemen. Police opperate in a civilized society ,not a war zone.
They are forced to fight with one hand tied behind their backs in fear of accusations of brutality.
If we are not going to let them fight to win,then bring them home now.
http://nctimes.com/articles/2006/08/24/news/top_stories/22_01_268_23_06.txt
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/23/AR2006082301829.html
August 26, 2006 at 3:44 pm
Big Jake: Your post impressed me. You’re so right. If our soldiers are going to be there, then let them do what they’re trained to do. We’re not fighting MEN, we’re fighting robots, stripped of all decency and humanity.
August 26, 2006 at 4:40 pm
I agree with both of you. If the enemy doesn’t adhere to the Geneva Convention rules of conduct in war, neither should we.
August 27, 2006 at 3:41 am
واقعاٌ مسخره است. خدا به این جماعت یه عقلی بده، به ما هم یه پولی!
August 27, 2006 at 6:21 am
#216,..Okay somebody, translate…
August 27, 2006 at 11:09 am
OK Zealot,
I’ll give it a shot . I believe that Reza has
said:
God Bless America ! My dear friends ! and thank you from the bottom of our hearts for all your efforts in bringing democracy and free speach to the Arab world.
God Bless your Flag ,your country and your People.
August 27, 2006 at 2:34 pm
Big Jake..if I knew you I’d shake your hand. If that isn’t what it says, I sure love your comeback. My hat’s off to you…you gave me quite a smile.
August 27, 2006 at 3:36 pm
Zealot,Good Buddy and fellow New Yorker,
I’m sure Reza can talk pretty good American when he wants to. So if my translation isn’t what he said he can feel free to speak plainly so there won’t be any misunderstanding.
August 27, 2006 at 6:24 pm
We must always look to the future. Tomorrow–the time that gives a man just one more chance–is one of the many things that I feel are wonderful in life. So’s a good horse under you. Or the only campfire for miles around. Or a quiet night and a nice soft hunk of ground to sleep on. A mother meeting her first-born. The sound of a kid calling you dad for the first time. There’s a lot of things great about life. But I think tomorrow is the most important thing. Comes in to us at midnight very clean. It’s perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we’ve learned something from yesterday.”
John Wayne
August 27, 2006 at 9:01 pm
John Wayne’s Personal Philosophy on Life:
“When you come slam bang up against trouble, it never looks half as bad if you face up to it.”
“I have tried to live my life so that my family would love me and my friends respect me. The others can do whatever the hell they please.”
“A man’s got to have a code, a creed to live by, no matter his job.
August 28, 2006 at 12:27 am
Ok – now that August 22nd is behind us, anyone still here besides me? (I can hear crickets..) Anyhow:
#179: worriedsince16: Glad to hear you’re okay with your accident. J Yes, death can be right around the corner in many ways, but so is life as well. Assuming that you’re a teen – you certainly have a long life ahead of you and a chance to really be a plus to yourself and society. Rather than worry, (which does no good), try staying active in life but careful in all you do.
#180: the viber: Gosh darn it you went and said you liked me (past tense) – J So I had to rewrite a kinder/gentler response. We need to analyze our selves yes from time to time. That was my point (not to insult you) but to ask yourself (or pray first for wisdom) how you can help the Holy Spirit rather than hinder it. I don’t disagree with what you say, but how it was delivered. I would rather see seeds sewn that bear fruit, as I’m sure you would too (especially being a mother). And I DO believe you when you say that you are a female since you mentioned everything BUT your true age (LOL). Peace.
#182 Red Dawn: You hit the nail on the head with the relationship concept. And YES – good point with respect to anotherMAD’s commentary.
#183: Knocking some sense into the US white trash.. Are you Howard Dean? Come clean now – because I can see the same old talking points. First, I considered (not that I had to) your request “The US death toll in Iraq in three years is higher than the death toll in vietnam in its whole war. Keep your stats straight. Google it up”.
Big Jake has honorably noted the real statistics (not that it matters to folks like you). The US death toll in Iraq currently is 2,622 – this includes non-combat related deaths like horsing around (recreational stuff), suicides, medical illnesses, etc. The average monthly death toll on American highways is 3,750 (just though I’d put that in there). Parts of those traffic fatalities in the last few years unfortunately are soldiers that returned from Iraq who survived war only to be killed on the highways. The Vietnam War cost the US a much higher 68,988 lives if you want to include non-combat related deaths as with Iraq. So since you can’t grip the basics of math and statistics, it would be pointless to pay any more attention to you. Have a nice day…
#187 Red Dawn: Always a pleasure to hear from you (even twice) J
#192 duck hunter: It’s all good…yes there are rude people and nice ones as well. We discuss things anonymously so we are free to act out the best or worst parts of our minds without fear (unless you and your IP are in an Islamic state). Because of this, there is no point in taking any of this personally. BTW, We KNEW you were from the south when you said “yall” – that gave it away! J
#201 zealot: “and you have women falling all over Eagle like he’s some 6′2″ pretty boy they’re hoping to snag, when in reality, he’s probably some balding, pencil neck with thick glasses,”
So did I ever say what sex I was? J Got you thinking now huh!
#202 Question: Thank you for serving our country first of all. It doesn’t matter what the polls say as many times people’s opinions aren’t accurately reflected due to the types of questions asked. Despite what the media and propaganda artist say, Americans (and I dare say most of modern society worldwide) know in their hearts that this War on Islamofacism (waged against modern civilization globally) HAS to be fought and better for us over there than here. So there is an appreciation for people like you who sacrifice the comforts of home and commit themselves to the effort. It is as historical as other major wars if not more so because the attack that brought us into the war was on our soil (continental US) and we HAVE to address it head on at the sources. 1/3 of our unit was there (Iraq & Afghanistan) and what most people in this country don’t hear from the biased political media and opposition politicians are the daily successes and appreciation from the people there. History will be on our side (you will see) when you’re an old man talking about it to your grandchildren (the generations to come whose freedom you are protecting). Picture that, as the statistics are clearly favorable that you will be proudly back before you know it.
#207 Dawn: You are right (again) about how weakness opens you up to an attack. Bin Laden was quite surprised after the Mogadishu (UN) catastrophe, when President Clinton pulled our troops out. He saw the USA as a paper tiger and the green light was given to plan and execute the attack on the Twin Towers. It showed that the great USA was weak and vulnerable lacking the will to fight. President Carter (the father of modern Terrorism, 1979) also taught the Iranian clerics that we just want to love everyone rather than fight. It was no surprise that the hostages were released when President Ronald “big guns” Reagan took office and the disgraced Jimmy Carter went on to win the Nobel Peace Prize. Like Bush or not, we have not had an attack since 2001: Peace through strength is the only solution.
# 210 Question: This country’s lifeblood IS oil – if we don’t have any, trucks stop and America turns into New Orleans X 100. So resources HAVE been the reason for many wars and for good reasons – without it people die. However, this war we are now caught up in (it’s actually been waged for over 1,300 years) is a Jihad (Holy War). It is about Islamic Conquest and yes, if they can seize the oil fields; the western countries not in line with Islam are in trouble.
#211 Big Jake: I feel the same way – this idea of a unified Iraq was nuts. But there are so many other factors involved with splitting up Iraq into pieces, that had we may create more trouble over a greater region. What we need to do is tell our environmentalist to take a hike and drill drill drill for oil. This country has vast amounts of oil in the ground yet to be tapped – so much so that I’d like to see us pay off our debt, then deflate the oil market so the Iranian Regime finds that it has little money left to buy weapons for Hizbullies and it’s war on western societies.
#216: The closest to a translation I can find is: “His oppressor is falling an anus. They furrowed ا by himیBe far جماعت یه was reasonableی He came upon, by him that a worry یه پ and turn aroundی!”
Folks, I have this feeling that any statement with the word “anus” in it isn’t going to be positive. SO, maybe it is good that reza has an Arabic keyboard! It’s obvious that there are two different worlds (Islam vs. Civilization) and what overrides the concern that they like us is that we survive what hell they bring us. Bin Laden had said in his declaration of Jihad (1996) that they don’t distinguish between military and civilian people – all are targets. That doesn’t sound very sensitive to me and yes, what about the Geneva Convention?? It seems like the pointy headed intellectuals just don’t get it: Islamics DON’T play by their old rules of warfare. Those Pendleton 8 (American POWs in California) Marines should be released immediately and those responsible for their arrest and treatment tried for treason!
August 28, 2006 at 1:44 am
#223:Eagle
“What we need to do is tell our environmentalist to take a hike and drill drill drill for oil. This country has vast amounts of oil in the ground yet to be tapped – so much so that I’d like to see us pay off our debt, then deflate the oil market so the Iranian Regime finds that it has little money left to buy weapons for Hizbullies and it’s war on western societies”.
BULL’S EYE again ,my friend. With the shale oil deposits in western Canada and the US ,the coal deposits(I believe we are the Saudi Arabia of coal)not to mention the Anwar Oil reserves all waiting to be tapped,we should be able to sidestep the Middle eastern blackmailers.
The really interesting play will come when we fully utilize the potential that Hydrogen holds.
Unfortunately ,we do not yet have our national priorities in order .
During WWII ,we were denied access to the rubber producing plantations in the Japanese occupied Pacific region . We were forced to improvise and synthetic rubber was invented.
I see a similar event should the Middle east become a conflagration. Could you imagine what would happen should these Islamic countries be deprived of their Petro-Dollars?
They are all one trick ponies. If oil should become just one of many fuel source option,all these countries are in trouble.
http://www.hydrogen.com/h2you.asp
By the way ,your translation of Reza’s post#216: “His oppressor is falling an anus. They furrowed ا by himیBe far جماعت ” sounds like Gay porn to me. Reza ,I think that writing that stuff can get you in alot of trouble in most moslem countries ,especially
the ones under Sharia Law.
Reza, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt.
My translation (post #218) is what you meant to say unless we hear otherwise from you.
August 28, 2006 at 2:03 pm
Eagle..glad to see you’re back. I thought you flew away. Man or woman, I don’t care what you are. Only made that comparison to make a point. No insult intended. Don’t care if you look like E.T., Brad Pitt, or my sister. I enjoy the posts from you and Big Jake the most…t doesn’t matter, I just assumed you were both guys.
As far as Reza goes, the anus translation is freaky. Maybe that’s why these people are so edgy….they know what can happen if they bend over to pick something up.
August 28, 2006 at 3:35 pm
Eagle: Glad to see you’re back, too. And I DO like you. You’re posts are always a good read, as well as Red Dawn’s and Big Jake’s, and I do get a lot of humor reading Zealot. Eagle, there’s no need to explain. I know you meant well, but you should take some of your own advice about “delivery”. If you had, you would’nt have had to have a gentler response. You did make me analyze myself, and that’s a good thing. I know I have faults. But,I have always been a stand up person. I’m not afraid to say what I think or defend what I believe. Especially now when the whole war is based on a belief system. I probably do sound immature on this statement, but in response to Reza, if you don’t have the guts to say what you mean so we can understand it, go stick your head in a hole. And I mean a hole in the ground. (hahaha)
August 28, 2006 at 5:36 pm
Wow. Alot going on since I last got on here. Zealot, when I said I “loved” Eagle, it was JUST A FIGURE OF SPEECH. I didn’t mean it literally so take a pill. The keep your mitts off thing was just in fun. That’s why I don’t get on these forums very much. It gets too weird for me. Especially now with this anal stuff and Reza. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that he’s probably trying to call us all a bunch of assholes, but as in everything else these uncivilized cowards do, he uses this scribble to “play” with us. I’m not swept away with any of these Muslims and wish they’d all stay the hell over there and do their own thing away from us and out of our country. Call me a bigot if you want to, but none of them belong here. Let them live their insane way and let us live ours. We have the right to exist the way we want to in the West, and they can exist their way in the M. East. They think we’re the Great Satan, we think their NUTS. As far as our guys being over there, God Bless every one of them and I hope they all come home safely. But while they’re there, they should be allowed to do whatever they have to,to survive. I support President Bush’s decision and it breaks my heart that our young men and women have to fight such an unconventional war against such monsters. But, they’ll win. There’s no military or spirit like ours.
August 28, 2006 at 6:06 pm
And one more thing. Everytime one our soldiers gets slain, we should just TAKE 100,000 barrels of oil.
August 28, 2006 at 8:40 pm
Eagle, unfortunately I clicked on the wrong topic a few minutes ago. Anyway, I’m 43. I know you’re a man because no woman would be such a wiseguy.
August 29, 2006 at 12:52 am
Eagle–
Glad you “jihad” (LOL!) with my replies. Touche my friend.
As for knowing you are a man as opposed to a woman:
#74– you said “I was beginning to get turned on to Vera (in a weird way) until she used “bald headed” as a derogatory adjective describing undesirable manipulative old men. I resemble that statement and demand an apology!”
Sorry, buddy. Had to point it out! ‘Course could all be disinformation but you’re too right on most of the time, so don’t think so. Got to give it to viber; she nailed you!
Love your info and comments. 🙂
Big Jake– Again, can ANYONE tell me why we aren’t relying on our own fuel sources instead of the blackmailers’??? We all know the political game with the Reps and the Dems and know THEY all know what’s truly going on. So what gives? All for the sake of retaining their seats? If so, those knowing the truth should be tried for treason as they jeapordize the security of this great nation and the lives of her valiant soldiers.
lovesamerica–Good idea though not even enough. Why not just take the damn country; democracy is not an idea these people seem to desire. They’d rather starve and raise their children in absolute degradation. They’d rather a mad/despotic man rule them and slaughter/torture them at will. Perhaps we need to allow the Kurds their own free state and let the shia and the sunni war with one another. When they’re sufficiently weakened, by their own hands, we should empower the Kurds to move in and take over. It wouldn’t be called Iraq, though. It would be Kurdistan.
August 29, 2006 at 1:40 am
#223 Eagle – I’m still here. I’ve been preparing my basement. My PC friends think I’m heading for the looney bin. Every once in awhile I listen to them. To answer your question about Howard Dean. Let me clue you all in to a little story, a true one, about Howard Dean. Shortly after 9-11 when he was still Governor of Vermont and all airports were on high alert, he took offense to an airport baggage inspector (at Burlington International) checking his luggage. He didn’t think he should have to go through what the rest of us were going through because he was Governor. Excuse my language (my southern roots showing here) but the man is a complete asshole. He says he’s for the people and then gives the poor airport security guard a hard time. In my humble opinion, no one .. and I mean no one … in this Country is above having their luggage checked. Why? Well for one, it sends the wrong message, and two, what a fait-a-complis for a terrorist to pull off loading a US government official’s baggage with some type of explosive device. Howard Dean for America … yeah, as long as us dumb little folk are willing to serve him. Sorry if I offend, but I know of what I speak.
#184 – Big Jake, thanks for setting the record straight with #183
#183 – What is up with the “white trash” nomer? Come on. I’ve lived all over this Country and in a lot of foreign countries for that matter. By using White Trash in your nomer, I have to assume you think the only people on this site who take issue with Moslem extremists are white. Grow up. Black America, Yellow America, and Brown America understands when they are threatened. If Islam were truly a peaceful religion, you wouldn’t see a more supportive group of people in America. For the most part, we believe in “live and let live.”
#210 – My husband’s been to Afghanistan on several tours. He still has hope and thinks we are on the right course. My son will probably be in Iraq within the next year. I love both of these men and the fight had better be worth it. I think it is. No one said it would be easy, including Bush. My fear all along has been that the media in this Country would do everything in its power to sway public opinion negatively on any war. Iraq gave them their excuse. Most of these morons are so in tight with Hollywood that the thought we Americans might put something else above going to a movie sent them into all out war on the war against terror. Let them be on the next airliner taken down.
#216 – Reza, your mother’s name better not be Judi. If so, I am extremely disapointed in you. I can forward your message to a good friend who will translate. Maybe I should respond in French or Italian. I’m sure there are others on this site who can handle other languages. We’re writing in English. Step up or get off.
August 29, 2006 at 1:41 am
Boy, if I could throw a party…call it the “cocktail hour”, I’d have to invite these people:
viber– for your belief
eagle– for your articulate and intelligent presentation
Big Jake– for your passion and knowledge
lovesamerica– for your patriotism
Question– for your questions
duck hunter– for your quiet pragmatism
worriedsince16– for your worries
zealot– for your zeal
D.J.– for your assessment
and last but not least, anothermad from Turkey–for your sarcasm and wit
Would be an interesting party, no?
August 29, 2006 at 1:46 am
Oh my, forgot one of my favorites as I just saw you posted when I did!
Americanwoman– well, she’s an Americanwoman. Nothing else need to be said about her!
August 29, 2006 at 3:09 am
Red Dawn, you asked:
” Again, can ANYONE tell me why we aren’t relying on our own fuel sources instead of the blackmailers’???”
The answer is because somebody is making alot of money doing things the way that they have always been done. Until we have to change (Necessity is the Mother of Invention)or because we want to change(somebody can make more money by doing things differently),we will do what we have always done.
August 29, 2006 at 4:17 am
Iran vs. America … Two Paths To Peace?
Ikvot ha’Mashiach
Commentary by Jack Kelley
The plan was for Russia to operate Iran’s nuclear fuel enrichment program in Russian territory with spent fuel rods being returned to Russia to insure no weapons grade enrichment took place in Iran. Iran agreed to part of the plan but has refused to stop its own enrichment program. This is a deal breaker.
Iran has consistently said that its nuclear program is intended for peaceful purposes only, so why not take advantage of this opportunity resolve the issue?
The answer lies in Shiite Islam’s definition of peace. To them it’s a condition that will exist only after Israel and Islam’s other enemies are destroyed and all the world is brought under submission. Only then can the Moslem Messiah, al Mahdi, establish the world wide Islamic rule that brings peace.
According to Moslem oral traditions (not written in the Koran) al Mahdi, who they believe disappeared in 941AD, will return to Earth when conditions have become so chaotic and desperate that he alone can save us. Iranian President Ahmadinejad believes he has been brought to power specifically to hasten al Mahdi’s return by plunging the world into such a state, and he believes he can accomplish this within 2 years.
He’s also said that the US is the major obstacle to this plan, even going so far as to accuse the US of trying to usurp al Mahdi’s role by imposing its own brand of peace upon the world.
While these two strategies appear to have the same ultimate goal in view, and while both presidents have alluded to divine purpose in their lives (obviously from different sources), their approaches to achieving that goal couldn’t possibly be more incompatible. Islamic rule is not democratic, and a democracy can’t tolerate an all powerful clergy imposing religious law.
Compounding the problem, Western mentality says that when two parties with similar goals disagree over implementation they sit down to negotiate and compromise until their differences are resolved. In Islam the only condition under which compromise is acceptable is when it buys the Moslem party enough time to gain the strength necessary to destroy the non-Moslem.
So while the EU 3 has been working with US support to negotiate a compromise to accommodate Iran’s nuclear aspirations, Iran has been using the time to secretly gain the strength it will need to succeed in imposing its will on the world. Sooner or later this dance has to end as the parties’ real intentions become known.
That time may soon be upon us. Even the multi-culturally minded Europeans can only be pushed so far and the recent “cartoon Jihad” might have been the last straw. “Freedom of speech is not up for negotiation,” declared Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso, summing up a consensus that has only grown stronger as the cries of outrage from the Muslim world grow louder.
“We demand a new social contract,” says Jan Wolter Wabeke, High Court Judge in The Hague. “We no longer accept that people don’t learn our language, we require that they send their daughters to school, and we demand they stop bringing in young brides from the desert and locking them up in third-floor apartments.” It’s finally dawning on Europeans that multi-culturalism is not part of the Islamic lexicon.
Before long it will become obvious even in diplomatic circles that Iran is intent on fomenting an international crisis, and that no amount of appeasement will put them off the track.
I edited the article as best I could .The website is posted below. I’ve got a bad feeling about this, folks . A showdown seems inevitable
once this nutjob gets the bomb.
http://www.gracethrufaith.com/ikvot/iran-vs-america-two-paths-to-peace
August 29, 2006 at 6:28 am
RE post #232
Red Dawn,
That sounds like one heck of a shin-dig! I’ll bring the steaks,Eagle,you’ve got the brewskis.
Better make another beer run. Zealot don’t forget the charcoal! Duck Hunter ,you bring the poultry.
August 29, 2006 at 12:46 pm
Red Dawn,
I love the idea of your cocktail party! Wouldn’t that be nice? I think I could sit and talk to all of you for hours. Such a wide variety of interesting people! I could offer my services to you. I love to cook, and I just finished a 6 week “hands on” culinary course and have all kinds of wonderful appetizer, main dish, and dessert recipes. Some great “drink” recipes, too. If this ever happened, the only thing better than the food would be the company!
August 29, 2006 at 1:30 pm
When you’re planning your cocktails for this event, folks, don’t forget to check out the Best End-of-the-World Cocktails, elsewhere on this site.
August 29, 2006 at 2:51 pm
I’m new, but I’d like to come to the party.
Like my name says, I’m curious.
lovesamerica: I know you’re a woman, are you a truckdriver, too?
red dawn: are you a native american who’s name is dawn, or do you just like the movie?
zealot: are you really a fanatic, or were you just born pissed?
Big Jake: you need to sober up. Not everything revolves around beer.
eagle: are you sure you didn’t mean EGO
viber: dieing to know – is that short for vibrator?
August 29, 2006 at 5:04 pm
Re: curious # 239: Everything doesn’t revolve around beer!?!? How ’bout beer is what kept most of early Europe alive because the water was unfit to drink. The fact that it was alcoholic in nature was a boon. Then came preserving with salt: peanuts, pretzels, jerky, etc, to have with the beer. Baking: bread for sandwiches (VERA!!!), pizza dough, biscuits (the morning after), and DOUGHNUTS!!! Agriculture: corn for popcorn, corn nuts, cornbread for that afore mentioned chili, etc.
Remember the story of a college prof using the large jar for an example of how full your life is? First in were large rocks to represent the big things in life, second, pebbles for the day-to-day items, then after some shaking, sand for the “small stuff.” The jar was full, the prof claimed. “Not quite,” answered a student in the class, and with that, the student poured a can of beer into the jar absolutely filling the jar to capacity. The morale(?) of the story is: No matter how full your life is, there’s always room for beer! ; )
Sho… heersh t’ ya, guysh and galsh… (hic!)
Live long and prosper, and, as my daughter told me, “Eagles may soar, but weasles don’t get sucked into jet engines.”
To the younger contributors, my father’s favorite, “Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill every time.” Yep, he kicked my butt a lot!
And to all, my take on life, “Life is too serious to be taken seriously.” Take time to laugh at yourself, don’t be too quick to judge others, and remember that the toes you step on today might be connected to the @$$ you may have to kiss tomorrow.
August 29, 2006 at 5:16 pm
curious-
You’re more than welcome to come to the party! We’ll make you the designated football.
🙂
August 29, 2006 at 6:22 pm
Curious…probably a little both.
And shuldn’t you be spelling your name
P-R-I-C-K?
August 29, 2006 at 7:03 pm
Zealot, good reply to Curious.
And Curious, no, I’m not a truck driver. But,if I was, I’m sure you can figure out the two words I’d say to you.
August 29, 2006 at 9:18 pm
Perhaps our host can interpret Reza’s message. Quayfortuna, I’m pretty sure you can translate? The friend I will ask is currently serving in Iraq so he’s got bigger things on his mind. Reality cheek? (Spelling error intended based on an online translation service.)
Reza, care to respond in French or Italian?
August 30, 2006 at 1:09 am
Curious:
SEEMS LIKE YOU DON’T GET INVITED TO TOO MANY PARTIES ,DO YA?
“I’ve always followed my father’s advice: he told me, first to always keep my word and, second, to never insult anybody unintentionally. If I insult you, you can be goddamn sure I intend to. And, third, he told me not to go around looking for trouble”.
John Wayne
August 30, 2006 at 3:33 am
Big Jake–
Again, good article. I wish they’d talk about articles like that on the news rather than talking heads regurgitating the same thing over and over. Guess that’d be too much like thinking.
viber–
Yes, I’ve enjoyed your commentary, along with many others, immensely. I would love to have a real cocktail party with the aforementioned people.
curious–
I could easily deal with any insult from you, and laugh at the ones you pffft at my peeps; however, the one directed at viber was without class completely.
And the answer to your question(s)is yes, in a roundabout way.
reza–
How about French? Or better yet, English. It’s the language most of us are communicating here in. Now there’s a thought!
August 30, 2006 at 3:40 am
quayfortuna–
You are absolutely hilarious!!!
You MUST attend the party and bring the cocktail recipes personally!
August 30, 2006 at 10:57 am
Curious:
You’re not curious, you’re something else. And it’s not humorous, either. Overly obnoxious and critical people always have deeper issues, so I hope (and pray) you will take some of Eagle’s advice and analyze yourself. You have obviously read all the posts and have gotten impressions of us. Instead of seeing and trying to understand someone’s point of view, you felt it necessary to belittle. In my case, you put a filthy spin on an innocent word. Must’ve given you quite a chuckle. I’ll let your twisted mind know that I DRIVE A VIBE. My little nephew calls me “Aunt Viber”. Thanks for degrading this endearment. It’s too bad that they’re are a lot of men in this world, but far too few “gentlemen”.
Red Dawn: I wish I DID know you personally, because I have a feeling we’d be great friends. God Bless you in all you do.
Zealot: I know you’re fiesty, and I think that’s what I like about you the most.
August 30, 2006 at 4:41 pm
Viber, unfortunately for you, chivalry died with the feminist movement. You didn’t want a world where you were put on pedestal and could have the leisure of not working, staying home and caring for the kids and your man. Wasn’t fulfilling enough for you. You can thank women like Americangirl for that. I can’t stress enough that anytime a women has any power things get messed up. Well, Muslims have the right idea. Those men don’t have the frickin problems American men do. You all want equality until you get into a divorce court, then you just can’t make it on your own without taking everything away that a man has worked for. The house, the kids, his money. You keep your claws dug in to him as long as you can, playing helpless female until you get everything you want. Then you look for another poor sap to do it to again. The real danger in this world isn’t Muslims, it’s WOMEN. Everything they touch turns to shit. I suggest you hook up with Red Dawn and head to lesboville. Stop at the nearest Reservation and throwback some firewater to lighten up. Take Zealot with you so he can say what you think but are too self-righteous to say. Maybe Eagle and DJ can join you so they can spread their perfection around a little bit and clue everyone in about the world. And don’t foget to invite Big Jake. He’ll get pissed if he misses a binge. All of you sorry asses make me want to puke. And you think your nephew calls you that because of your car!!?? Typical woman You’re not only stupid but naiive. I think the kid made an assessment and is destined to be the neighborhood stud. I hope his father teaches him to use women for the only thing they’re good for. And most of them arn’t even good at that.
August 30, 2006 at 6:22 pm
#249 – Curious – I’m not sure if this is gonna change your mind or not but here goes …. My true hope for you is that you will find a woman who you fall head over heals in love with and she for you. There will be a mutual caring and respect between the two of you that will enable you to pull through life’s most difficult experiences.
This is what I have with my husband. Chivalry and femininity are not dead. My guy and I are as crazy about each other today as were were when we met 23 years ago. Trust me when I say he is as far from weak as any human can get. However, he appreciates (and actually expects)that when he goes to where ever his nation calls, that he’s got a competent woman who can step up to the plate and handle his home, his kids, his yard, his cars and everything else he’s worked his butt off for. He taught me how to use a firearm and made sure I will use it if I have to.
Don’t make the mistake of assuming that the women on this site are a bunch of men-hating feminists. I know those women exist as do women-hating men.
Are you from the US? If so, you should know that most men and women in this country completely embrace and like (most of the time) the qualities of the opposite gender.
Most women in this country do not look at men as the enemy and it doesn’t sound to me like Red Dawn or Viber do either. We appreciate strong men. Strong men can relate to women as an equal, but different force of nature. Strong men do not belittle women, throw acid at them, beat the crap out of them, or rape them. These men know what it’s like to have the heart and soul of that woman standing next to them. They know what it’s like to receive love that isn’t given out of complete fear for one’s life. It’s empowering for them and we know it.
I don’t think I can change your viewpoint. If you are Moslem, your attitude does nothing but reinforce the fear I have for my daughters and all women in this Country.
I may be naive at times, but when the safety of my family is at stake and my guy isn’t here to protect us, you will find out how dead on reality based I can be. I am not alone.
August 31, 2006 at 2:54 am
OK everybody -CURIOUS just gave away his real identity . He is the president of the “HE-MAN
Woman Haters Club”!
Oh , by the way, Curious’ post#249- “I hope his father teaches him to use women for the only thing they’re good for”.
A little friendly advice ,Bub- Go take a Dale Carnagie course or buy his book “How to win Friends and influence People” You need all the help you can get.
August 31, 2006 at 3:02 am
Americanwoman :
You ar wasting your breath .
I don’t know if CURIOUS is a Moslem, I do know the he is a jerk.
August 31, 2006 at 3:50 am
Curious–
WOW. Impressive. Have to say, certainly not a “lesbo” as I’ve been married 13 years to a MAN.
Your life seems definitely sad and as Americanwoman said, I hope you realize how wrong you are before you miss out on what life is all about.
Don’t know why you’re so angry but sounds like you’ve been/going through a bitter divorce. I’ve got a guy friend who’s been going through the same thing and he often voices the same thoughts as you did to me even though I’m female. I’m his friend, so he knows I understand.
I think perhaps you should reach out to people for support, not lash out in your anger.
BTW, am I on the wrong blog??? I thought this was about the Iranian situation, not “men versus women”. Oh wait a minute, THAT would be the Iranian situation. Aside, of course, from aMad Hatter and his genocidal clerical tea party.
If you commiserate/sympathize with the moslems in their war against women and everyone else who’s not of the same moslem sect/and/or religion/non-religion as they are, perhaps you need to EXPORT yourself to a moslem country in the near/immediate future.
August 31, 2006 at 3:59 am
Oh, and how chauvinist…”the leisure of not working and raising the kids…”
Have you ever stayed at home and raised the kids??? They certainly don’t do it by themselves. Neither does the housework, the household accounts, the livestock (as we have), dinner prepared after a long day of the aforementioned chores. Put on a pedestal??? HA!
You should put me on a pedestal, shut your mouth, and kiss my feet.
Oh, and as Americanwoman said, I can use any firearm from a 22 rifle to a m60 to a 50 caliber deer rifle to protect me, and mine, and what my HUSBAND works so hard for.
Geez, why am I wasting my “breath”. Next!
August 31, 2006 at 12:38 pm
Anyway, I’m going back to the original topic.
Obviously Chavez of Venezuela is am absolute moron. He’s solidifying his country’s ties with Iran and Syria against the “western imperialist” nation of America. Gee, I don’t think he’s a moslem…obviously he pays no attention to what aMad Hatter’s intentions are for the world.
One thing I see in these countries opposed to western culture and “imperialism”; the rulers live a plush and wealthy existence, the people live in abject poverty and few human rights. So what is it all these countries despise so much about the democratic way of life being spread by the imperialist nation of America? It always seem to originate from the rulers of these nations who are opposed to being told what they can or can’t do by the west (generally something NOT in the world’s best interest). So they immediately set about stirring up a national pride against the policies of the west which (naturally) are commited to stealing the identity of these cultures and imposing their “dominion” on these peoples. Then of course when sanctions are placed upon these self-centered meglo-maniacal leaders and their countries and the people begin to suffer worse than they were before, this is all the fault of the western nations.
It’s really too bad that many people around the world cannot experience western culture, which is based upon personal freedom. I have a feeling many of them might acually appreciate being under the “dominion” of the imperialist nation of America.
August 31, 2006 at 1:25 pm
Why Islam today shuts down freedom of religion
Apostasy in the Quran, Traditions, and Islamic Law
James M. Arlandson
In 2006 in Pakistan, Christians have been arrested for converting from Islam to Christianity.
In 2006 in Afghanistan, Abdul Rahman was being prosecuted for converting from Islam to Christianity, a “crime” that carries the death penalty. After massive protests from governments around the world, the trial was terminated and Abdul Rahman was able to leave the country. More on the background of this case can also be found here.
As East and West meet through the worldwide web, we will hear more of such stories, even of Christian martyrs.
Apostates are those who leave a religion, in this case Islam, whether they become atheists or converts to another religion. What should happen to them according to the Quran, the traditions (or hadith), and later legal rulings? Have these modern clerics and judges strayed from original Islam?
This article exposes and analyzes the source of these anti-freedom of religion laws in Islam today.
The Quran
It must be conceded that automatic death for apostasy is not as prominent a theme in the Quran as one would expect. For instance, these verses condemn it, but its punishment is reserved for divine judgment in the Last Day, or its punishment is not clear down here on earth: Suras 2:217; 3:72, 86-87, 90; 4:137; 5:54; 16:106; 33:14; 47:25-27; 73:11; and 74:11.
Further, according to the historical context of Sura 5:33, which commands mutilation and crucifixion for striving against Allah and Muhammad, some Arab tribesmen turned away from Islam, but they also murdered a shepherd and stole livestock. Thus, more than apostasy is in view here. Nonetheless, the hadith uses this context to justify death for apostates, as reviewed in this article.
Are there clear verses about execution down here on earth for apostasy alone? The next three passages are sufficient to justify this, in earliest Islam, the original community that Muhammad was founding.
(1) Sura 4 was revealed in Medina over a period of three years (AD 625-627). At this point some Muslims have not immigrated to Medina when the invitation had been given. A group of them, called the hypocrites, had embraced Islam with reservations. Sometimes they supported Muhammad from a geographical and religious distance, for example in saying prayers the Muslim way. At other times, they seemed to help the enemies of Islam (see Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Quran, vol. 1, pp. 361-62, notes 116-117).
In Sura 4:88-89 Allah tells the prophet how to deal with these particular hypocrites.
4:88-89 Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance) 89 They wish that you reject (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So, take not Auliya (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill [q-t-l] them wherever you find them . . . . (Al-Hilali and Khan, parenthetical insertions are theirs; mine in brackets)
We should note two facts from these verses. First, Allah himself made the hypocrites go astray, yet he orders them killed. Second, the Arabic verb qatala is used (root is q-t-l), and this word means exclusively to fight, kill, war, battle, or slaughter.
Next, verse 90 says that if these nominal Muslims seek peace, not war, then Allah has not opened a way for Muhammad to fight them. He must allow them to live in their state of hypocrisy. However, as verse 89 says, if they turn back both from emigrating and Islam, then they shall be battled. So there is no ambiguity about Muhammad’s policy on full apostates—death.
For the final two passages, we allow Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi (d. 1979), a traditional and respected commentator of the Quran, to walk us through Islamic policy on apostasy, as revealed in the Quran (The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 2 of 6).
(2) Sura 9 is the last one to be revealed in its entirety. By now, Muhammad has a strong military, so he is about to “deal” with opponents once and for all. Three verses in this sura command striving (jihad) and then fighting (qital) against hypocrites and unbelievers (73-74 and 123). In these two verses, the hypocrites and unbelievers are not full apostates, according to Maududi.
The Quran says:
9:73-74 O Prophet, strive [j-h-d] hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be adamant and stern with them . . . they did utter the words of unbelief. Thus, they were guilty of unbelief after they professed Islam . . . If even now they repent of their misbehavior, it will be good for their own selves, but if they do not repent, Allah will chastise them with a painful chastisement in this world and the Hereafter . . . . (Maududi, vol. 2, p. 213)
These two verses say three things about these near-apostates.
First, hypocrites stood aloof from Islam, yet they mouthed words of support—sometimes. At other times they opposed Muhammad, especially in his long and difficult Tabuk Crusade against the Byzantine Christians in late AD 630. They refused to go. Muhammad could not tolerate this wishy-washy behavior. Most important, he could not tolerate opposition, at this late stage.
Second, the more ambiguous word jihad is used. This implies that the ultimate command to kill the hypocrites and unbelievers has not yet been given clearly. But they have been promised “painful chastisement in this world.” How? The Muslim community has other methods of “striving” with them instead of killing them, such as ostracism, denial of their oaths in a court of law, closed doors of offices and positions, and contempt in social meetings (Maududi, vol. 2, p. 219, note 82).
Third, the hypocrites are still given the opportunity to repent. “If they now repent of their misbehavior, it will be good for them” . . . . This means, according to Maududi, that they are not full apostates, even though they uttered words of unbelief. But this chance for repentance is short lived, as the next verse reveals.
(3) In Sura 9:123 the hypocrites have been merged with the unbelievers, so they are now apostates.
The Quran says:
9:123 O Believers, fight [q-t-l] with these disbelievers who are near you, and they should find you firm and stern. (Maududi, vol. 2, p. 249)
Maududi notes two differences between verses 73 and 123. First, jihad (j-h-d) and qital (q-t-l) are used in each, respectively; and, second, only one key word describes the enemies of Islam in verse 123, whereas two words describe them in verse 73.
The only difference between the two Commands is that in v. 73 the Muslims were asked to do Jihad with them, while in this verse [123] stronger words, “fight with them,” have been used, which were meant to impress on them that they should crush the hypocrites thoroughly and completely. Another difference in the wording is that in v. 73, two different words “disbelievers and hypocrites,” have been used, while in this verse [123] only one word, “disbelievers,” has been used so that the hypocrites should forfeit all their claims as Muslims, for there was room for this concession in the word “hypocrite.” (vol. 2, p. 253, note 121, insertions mine)
Maududi says that the word “hypocrites” means a reprieve, but this word has been removed, and “disbelievers” has been supplied, which eliminates the reprieve. Recall that Sura 9:73-74 says that the hypocrites made some confession of unbelief after they professed Islam, so the implication is clear from verse 123, added to verses 73-74, as follows: Even though neither Maududi nor verse 123 uses “apostasy” as such, these hypocrites-declared-unbelievers should be fought and crushed thoroughly and completely.
The hadith
The hadith are the records or traditions about Muhammad’s words and actions outside of the Quran. This body of literature and the Quran form the foundation of later classical law. Bukhari (d. AD 870) is considered one of the most reliable hadith collectors and editors, if not the most reliable. Four examples from Bukhari and two hadiths cited by Maududi suffice to give us an idea of how harshly early Islam treats apostates.
(1) Bukhari records this tradition traced back to Muhammad himself in a legal context. It gives three reasons for shedding a Muslim’s blood. One of them is apostasy.
Allah’s Apostle said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas [like-for-like punishment] for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.” (Bukari)
(2) This hadith says that some “atheists” were brought to Ali, Muhammad’s son-in-law and cousin, and he burned them alive.
. . . The news of this event reached Ibn Abbas [Muhammad’s cousin and highly reliable transmitter of traditions] who said, “If I had been in his [Ali’s] place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Messenger forbad it, saying, ‘Do no punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah Messenger, ‘Whoever change[s] his Islamic religion, then kill him.’” (Bukhari, Apostates, no. 6922; online source)
Evidently, these “atheists” were once Muslims, but they no longer followed Muhammad’s way. The Islam of Ali and Ibn Abbas, Muhammad’s family, would not tolerate freedom of religion, so Ali burned them alive. Ibn Abbas would have beheaded them because fire as a punishment is reserved only for Allah.
(3) After Muhammad dies of a fever in AD 632, the tribes in Arabia revolted against Islam. Evidently, they honored this religion only because the prophet grew in military prowess. But shortly after he died, they dropped their allegiance to him. However, his right-hand companion Abu Bakr was appointed successor or Caliph upon Muhammad’s death (ruled AD 632-634). This is how he deals with the revolt.
When Allah’s Messenger died and Abu Bakr was elected as a Caliph after him, some of the Arabs reverted to disbelief. ‘Umar said to Abu Bakr, “How dare you fight the people while Allah’s Messenger said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say, “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” And whoever says: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah” saves his wealth and his life from me unless he deserves a legal punishment justly, and his account will be with Allah!”’” Abu Bakr said, “By Allah, I will fight him who discriminates between Zakat and Salat (prayers), for Zakat is the compulsory right to be taken from the wealth. By Allah, if they refuse to give me even a tying rope which they use to give to Allah’s Messenger, I would fight them for withholding it.” ‘Umar said, “By Allah, it was nothing, except I saw that Allah had opened the chest of Abu Bakr to the fight, and I came to know for certain that that (i.e. the decision to fight) was the truth.” (Bukhari)
In this passage, zakat “is the compulsory right to be taken from the wealth” of the Arab tribes. Abu Bakr zealously fights for every last scrap of wealth from them. Even if they withhold a “tying rope,” he will battle them for it. In the end, the first Caliph was successful. The tribes were subdued.
(4) As the final example from Bukhari’s collection, this hadith promises a reward on the Day of Resurrection for killing apostates in the last days:
. . . No doubt I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.” (Bukhari)
Next, Maududi cites two hadiths that he considers reliable. Both say that a Christian or Christians converted to Islam, disliked it, and then switched back to Christianity. Ali is Muhammad’s cousin and son-in-law and fourth Caliph (ruled AD 656-660), who was assassinated while praying in a mosque. How does he treat these Christians? Tolerantly?
(5) This Christian was martyred after he proclaimed the Lordship of Jesus Christ over himself and possibly even over Ali.
. . . A man who was formerly a Christian, then was Muslim, and again became a Christian was brought before Ali. Ali asked him: What is the cause of your conduct? He replied: I have found the religion of the Christians better than your religion. Ali asked: What is your belief about Jesus? He said: He is my Lord (Rabb); or else he said: He is Lord of Ali. Hearing this, Ali ordered that he be executed.
(6) These Christians were martyred after they realized that their first religion, Christianity, was far more excellent than all other religions, even Islam. Note what Ali does to their children.
. . . Ali was informed about a group of Christians who had become Muslims and then became Christians again. Ali arrested them, summoned them before himself and enquired about the truth of the matter. They said: We were Christians. Then we were offered the choice of remaining Christians or becoming Muslims. We chose Islam. But now it is our opinion that no religion is more excellent than our first religion. Therefore we have become Christians now. Hearing this, Ali ordered these people to be executed and their children enslaved.
Slavery has a long and dreadful history in Islam.
Source: The Punishment of the Apostate According to Islamic Law, for the last two hadiths; and scroll down to “Views of the Rightly Guided Caliphs,” nos. 6 and 7
This section of Bukhari’s hadith deals with apostates. This article has many more hadiths than the ones cited in this present article.
Classical Islamic law
Sharia is Islamic law based on the Quran and the hadith. Fiqh is the science of applying and interpreting sharia, done by qualified judges and legal scholars. We look at two of the most widespread and influential schools in orthodox Sunni Islam: those of Shafii (d. 829) and Malik (d. 795).
(1) Malik was also a reliable collector of hadith.
In one long hadith, Malik first lays the foundation that execution is legal.
Yahya related to me . . . that the Messenger of Allah . . . said, “If someone changes his religion—then strike off his head!”
The first class of apostates leaves Islam for something else, but they are not given the opportunity to repent.
They are killed without being called to repent because their repentance is not recognized. They were concealing their disbelief and making Islam public, so I do not think that one should call such people to repent and one does not accept their word.
The second group of apostates leaves Islam and divulges it. What happens to him?
As for the person who leaves Islam for something else and divulges it, he is called on to repent. If he does not turn in repentance, he is killed . . . If they repent, that is accepted from them. (Online source)
The next hadith in Malik concerns Umar. Recall that in the previous section Abu Bakr the first Caliph (ruled 632-634) waged wars on tribes that apostatized from Islam and that Ali the fourth Caliph (r. 656-666) killed Christians. Umar was the second Caliph (r. 634-644), and he too kills apostates as a matter of policy, except he gives them three days to repent.
. . . Then Umar inquired, “Do you have any recent news?” He said, “Yes. A man has become an unbeliever after he was a Muslim.” Umar said, “What have you done with him?” He replied, “We let him approach and then struck off his head.” Umar said, “Didn’t you imprison him for three days and feed him a loaf of bread every day and call on him to repent that he might . . . return to the command of Allah?” Then Umar said, “O Allah! I was not present and I did not order it and I am not pleased since it has come to me.” (online source)
(2) The following medieval manual compiled mainly by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 1368), Reliance of the Traveler: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law, (rev. ed., trans. Nuh Ha Mim Keller, Beltsville, Maryland: Amana, 1994), summarizes rulings in the Shafii School of fiqh.
These two laws cover the two requirements that make an apostate liable for death and the obligation of the caliph or his representative.
o8.1 When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed.
o8.2 In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (A: or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.
There is no monetary compensation for executing an apostate.
o8.4 There is no indemnity for killing an apostate.
The following eighteen acts, which are broad in scope, entail leaving Islam.
(1) to prostrate to an idol, whether sarcastically, out of mere contrariness, or in actual conviction; . . .
(2) to intend to commit unbelief, even if in the future. And like this intention is hesitating whether to do so or not: one thereby immediately commits unbelief;
This law says that speaking with a clear mind and deliberation the doctrine of the Trinity makes one an apostate:
(3) to speak words that imply unbelief such as “Allah is third of three,” or “I am Allah”—unless one’s tongue has run away with one, or one is quoting another, or is one of the friends of Allah . . . in a spiritually intoxicated state of total oblivion; . . .
(4) to revile Allah or His messenger;
(5) to deny the existence of Allah, His beginningless eternality, His endless eternality, or to deny any of His attributes which the consensus of Muslims ascribe to Him;
(6) to be sarcastic about Allah’s name, His command, His interdiction, His promise, or His threat;
(7) to deny any verse in the Koran or anything which by scholarly consensus . . . belongs to it, or to add a verse that does not belong to it;
(8) to mockingly say, “I don’t know what faith is”;
(9) to reply to someone who says, “There is no power or strength through Allah”; . . .
. . .
(12) when someone asks to be taught the Testification of Faith [shahada] . . . and a Muslim refuses to teach him it;
(13) to describe a Muslim or someone who wants to become a Muslim in terms of unbelief (kufr);
(14) to deny the obligatory character of something which by the consensus of Muslims . . . is part of Islam, when it is well known as such, like the prayer (salat) or even one rak’a [act of prostration] from one of the five obligatory prayers, if there is no excuse; . . .
(15) to hold that any of Allah’s messengers or prophets are liars, or to deny their being sent;
A later legal scholar adds the following:
(16) to revile the religion of Islam;
(17) to believe that things themselves or by their own nature have causal influence independent of the will of Allah;
(18) to deny the existence of angels or jinn . . . or the heavens;
(19) to be sarcastic about any ruling of the Sacred Law;
This law leaves no room for ambiguity about the ultimate goal of Islam:
(20) or to deny that Allah intended the Prophet’s message . . . to be the religion followed by the entire world.
To sum up, these laws are all about abstract doctrine and belief, not about physical acts like murder, yet they elicit death. No one is allowed even to be sarcastic about Islamic law. Some are highly doctrinal and designed to crush different Islamic doctrines (nos. 5 and 6). No one may deny a passage in the Quran (no. 7). So how can the violent verses be renounced? Secular science is not permitted to flourish (no. 17). Clearly, these laws chill and stifle freedom of religion, thought, and speech.
Can or will Islamic countries revise or move past classical fiqh that is rooted in the Quran and sound hadith?
Conclusion
The reason Islam today shuts down freedom of religion is obvious. It is following its origins. The Quran came down allegedly from Allah through Gabriel, and Muhammad in his example was inspired by his deity. Islamic law flows out of these two sources.
However, when a religion suppresses free speech and dissent, it testifies against itself. What are the religious leaders trying to hide? Why is criticism shut down? If Islam really holds the Ultimate Truth and Final Revelation, then it should fear no challenge. The leaders should be able to defend it by words alone, for its appeal should be self-evident. People should flock to it willingly and without threat of violence. On the other hand, if people want to leave it—an unimaginable thought since Islam is so awesome—then they should be allowed to go without persecution or a sword hanging over their heads.
The ideal is for Islam to reform itself. Moderate Muslims believe that automatic execution of apostates does not have a secure basis in the Quran and early Islam. They may be right about this. It certainly is not a dominant theme. But can or will these moderates reform Islam on this subject? Can they persuade their more traditional fellow Muslims who follow the hadith and classical fiqh closely? Will they write numerous articles and books explaining why execution for apostasy is not found in the Quran? This would benefit all societies everywhere, for it would open the door for many to leave Islam, which is a burdensome and severe religion.
If not, then another strategy must be played out.
First, Islamic law must never be imposed or legitimized around the world. It is too barbaric. Freedom of religion must be given wide latitude. If it means criticizing the prophet, the Quran, and Islamic law itself, then freedom is still better than repression.
Second, free leaders all over the world must put pressure on oppressive Islamic governments. This news report shows exactly that happening.
Third, with the advent of the worldwide web, information flows freely, shining a light in the darkness. Ordinary citizens should keep track of Islamic oppression, sending emails to each other and reputable web logs (blogs). An informed citizenry is a free one, and maybe free citizens can help the oppressed across the globe. Contributions to a reputable human rights organization is another way to help.
Supplemental Material
If the readers would like to see the Quran in multiple translations, they should click on this website.
This article explains why the West must preserve freedom of speech and the Biblical basis of such freedom. Scroll down to the section on the New Testament, which diametrically opposes the Quran on freedom. Unlike Muhammad, Jesus never persecuted anyone who decided to leave him (John 6:60-70).
This report tracks the application of apostasy laws around the world, citing many examples.
This older but still accurate dictionary has a brief entry. Scroll down to “Apostasy from Islam.”
This mid-sized chapter was written by an older generation Christian who knew Islam and Arabic thoroughly. It also analyzes some legal rulings.
This is a short section in an online book. It surveys the main ideas on apostasy.
This short entry in an index to Islam has a list of Quranic verses and explains some Arabic words.
This short article contrasts Islam’s coercion of conscience with Christianity’s freedom of conscience.
This website has a booklet on apostasy.
Addendum
Maududi uses Sura 9:11-12 to justify executing apostates. Muhammad has a strong military. These verses continue Muhammad’s policy in Sura 9:1-5 of threatening the polytheists with death, ambushes, and besiegements.
9:11-12 . . . Yet if they [idolaters] repent even now, and establish Salat [prayer five times a day] and pay Zakat dues [forced “charity” tax], then they shall be your brethren in faith . . . But if they break their oaths after making compacts and revile your Faith, you should fight [q-t-l] with these ringleaders of disbelief because their oaths are not trustworthy: it may be that sword alone will restrain them. (Maududi, vol. 2, p. 179, insertions in brackets are mine)
Maududi says that according to the historical context, the “compacts” and “oaths” are not political treaties, but the acceptance of Islam. But after this renunciation and mockery of Islam, they become apostates. Muslims are therefore commanded to fight them. The Arabic root word q-t-l is used. Recall that it means to fight, kill, war, battle and slaughter. It has no ambiguity or broader meaning, as jihad does.
However, Maududi’s interpretation is not as secure as it first seems. It could very well be the case that “compacts” and “oaths” are political. Verses 3 and 4 support this political interpretation, for Muhammad warns the polytheists that his treaty obligations with them will come to an end, and at that time they were not Muslims. So the polytheists did not leave Islam because they were not part of it in the first place. But at least Maududi works hard at finding Quranic justification for killing apostates from Islam, ironically.
Source: The Punishment of the Apostate According to Islamic Law, scroll down to “The Proof from the Qur’an for the Commandment to Execute the Apostate”
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Copyright by James Malcolm Arlandson.
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Articles by James Arlandson
Answering Islam Home Page
I apologize for the length of this post. I felt that it needed to be posted to give us an exposure to moslem thinking not openly discussed in today’s media.
August 31, 2006 at 2:32 pm
Meanwhile, over on the front page — What Would You Do With Your ‘Last Days’?
August 31, 2006 at 4:05 pm
Big Jake,
Thanks for the very informative read. I’ve clipped it and will make sure my friends read it.
August 31, 2006 at 11:09 pm
You can solve the world’s problems after I address your remarks.
#249 American Women: Touching love story. “my husband taught me to use a firearm” Lets see..pick up gun, put bullet in gun, pull back hammmer, aim, squeeze trigger. Sounds simple enough to me. Oh yeah, I forgot. You’re a women. How many repetitions did it take before you finally got it? And if your husband trusts you while he’s away it can only be 1 of 3 reasons.
1. He’s a dumb ass
2. He straps a chastity belt on you.
3. You’re so frickin fat and ugly he doesn’t have to worry about anyone doinkin’ you.
#251/#252: President of the He-Man Women Haters Club. I don’t hate women. Everyone should own one. But, I know your real identity now, too. You’re Bob, on the male enhancement commercials. Between the brewski’s and playing with a vienna sausage you need something big in your life.
#253/#254 Last but not least, Red Dawn. Very, VERY typical women. You have so much to say, and you say it, and say it, and say it. Sometimes two or three times within just a few hours. Take care of livestock, huh? Must be sheep for your husband. Why else would he torture himself for 13 years.
Viber must be giving me the silent treatment. Now that’s a women I would marry. If I could just find a women who would give me the silent treatment I would be an extremely happy man.
September 1, 2006 at 2:09 am
Curious :
You are starting to give me the creeps.
Why are you so interested in my Vienna
Sausage?
If it is because “you need something big in your life” ,you are barking up the wrong tree ,bub. I’m happily married with four kids.
We know you have no interest in women and women have no interest in you.
Try taking out an ad in the Village Voice. Nobody has to be lonely anymore,even you.
PS I’m glad you enjoyed the commercial.
September 1, 2006 at 12:14 pm
Curious – far from fat, far from ugly, far from dumb, and I’ve never owned a belt. It’s called trust and love for that person standing next to you. My guy is one of the smartest men I know. I didn’t say it took me long to learn how to use a gun … I just had zero desire to ever pick one up. Although with people like you in this world, I’m seeing why my husband insisted I learn how to use one.
Big Jake, Eagle, Red Dawn, Viber and every other level headed person on the blog, I’d like to continue to correspond with you and I will as long as you’re on the site. I will not be reading any of curious’s posts. He can rant to someone else.
June 18, 2011 at 8:57 am
1111111111111111
September 1, 2006 at 12:32 pm
Americanwoman–
You’re exactly right; he’s not worth responding to.
We don’t need weak, American males like him who are obviously so threatened by women.I really do wish he’d take my advice and EXPORT himself to Iran.
He’s just so terribly pathetic.
September 1, 2006 at 1:25 pm
More insight to muslim thought…
8/8/2006 Clip No. 1230
Syrian Cleric Muhammad Said Ramadhan Al-Bouti on Hizbullah TV: I Support Blowing Up American and Israeli Targets around the World
Following are excerpts from an interview with Syrian cleric, Muhammad Said Ramadhan Al-Bouti which aired on Al-Manar TV on August 8, 2006:
Muhammad Said Ramadhan Al-Bouti: As you know, the enemy in this war appears to be Israel, but, as everyone knows, the fighting enemy is actually America. Israel is merely the claw of America in this war. People who cannot stand with their fighting brothers can still fight. They can carry out other actions.
[…]
Israel is now in the throes of death, due to the grip that has tightened around its neck. I used to be one of those who did not support acts that can be characterized as adventurous, like destroying American targets, blowing them up. But now… yesterday I was thinking about this and I looked up what the jurisprudents had to say in this matter. I hold that people who cannot stand with the Islamic resistance, but can carry out, in their countries and in other places, actions that would in some way paralyze this enemy – they should indeed paralyze the enemies’ interests, and destroy their facilities wherever they may be, but on condition that they do not confuse things. In other words, innocent lives should not be lost, the action should be carefully planned, and should by limited to the people who are hostile to us. So, you are calling for a passive boycott, for example? Economic boycott is one option. This can be done by all Arab and Islamic countries. In addition, if I were asked about destroying the facilities and interests of the enemies – America and Israel – in the various countries… Does the religious law allow us to do this? yes, as long as innocent people are not killed in the process.
September 1, 2006 at 1:29 pm
8/8/2006 Clip No. 1229
Moroccan Author Khanatha Banouna: We Need Millions of Hasan Nasrallahs and Osama bin Ladens
Following are excerpts from an interview with Moroccan author, Khanatha Banouna, which aired on Al-Jazeera TV on August 8, 2006:
Khanatha Banouna: Anyone with responsibility – in the home, in official institutions, in the pulpits, in the media, in the ideological sphere, and in politics – must build up active range – rage will shake the worm-eaten roots, which have brought us to this sick reality.
[…]
We need Hasan Nasrallah, millions of Hasan Nasrallahs. We need millions of Osama bin Ladens. We need millions of people armed with real active rage.
[…]
We are not Indians. I said this to an American journalist who came to me before the [9/11] New York incidents. I told them I believe in “blood for blood.” I still say this. I still believe in “blood for blood,” and if I had the power, I would do it myself.
[…]
We are not terrorists. What terrorist in the world is more terrible than Bush and all the Zionists? We are not terrorists, but if self-defense, and defending our values, our identity, our culture, and our religion is terrorism, then we welcome every type of terrorism on the face of the earth. In that case, I’m a terrorist, heading the list of terrorists.
September 1, 2006 at 1:46 pm
5/23/2006 Clip No. 1174
Saudi Shura Council member Ibrahim Al-Buleihi: Terrorism Is the Product of a Flaw in Arab and Muslim Culture
Following are excerpts from an interview with Saudi Shura Council member Ibrahim Al-Buleihi, which aired on Channel 1, Saudi TV, on May 23, 2006.
Interviewer: Some elements in Arab and Muslim societies have intensified the hostility towards Arabs and Muslims, through their acts of violence and terrorism, to the point that we see images of slaughtering the other – American or European – live on TV.
Ibrahim Al-Buleihi: In my opinion, we should not describe these people as deviant. This is the product of our culture.
[…]
They are the product of a culture that believes the other does not deserve to live, and is an absolute enemy with whom no understanding is possible.
[…]
There is a fundamental flaw in our culture that leads to this behavior. This ideology, which was advocated by Sayyid Qutb, and which is implemented by those who kill innocent people – women, children, and people who have done nothing wrong – did not emerge out of thin air, but is the product of this culture. This is a one-dimensional culture, a culture of tyranny – tyranny in culture, in politics, in society, in the family, and in everything.
[…]
The “other” does not have to be someone completely different. When we disagree with someone, even over a shoe-shine, we regard him as the “other,” we boycott him, we excommunicate him, defame him, level accusations at him, and so on.
September 1, 2006 at 2:33 pm
Very interesting, thought-provoking stuff, Big Jake. Particularly the last one, from Al-Buleihi. Keep it up.
September 1, 2006 at 3:58 pm
I want my chance to respond to Curious. I know guys like you. About 10 years ago my sister dated a guy briefly, like twice maybe. He was jealous, she didn’t like it, so she told him she didn’t want to see him anymore. He follows her home one night, pulls her out of her car and beats the shit out of her breaking her nose in two places and putting her in hospital a couple of days. She pressed charges, he went to a jail for a little while (not long enough) and he was ordered to pay restitution, (again not enough). What this clown didn’t consider, was that she had a brother in another county with a short fuse. After he was out about 6 months, I paid him a visit. I did what my 100lb sister couldn’t do. He didn’t press charges. You know why? Because I told him if he did, that he better hope I NEVER got out. Because when I did, it would never stop. I’m glad he believed me, because back then I meant it. I was a lot younger then, but honestly, I still probably do it again.
I’m also pissed the way you insult an AMERICAN SOLDIER’S wife. What the hell is wrong with you? My wife was killed in an accident 7 years ago leaving me to take care of our 2 year old son. Trust me, pal, I didn’t realize how much my wife did until she wasn’t there to do it anymore. All I had to do before the accident was bring a home a check and take care of her. I got a real dose of reality once she was gone. I didn’t know how good I had it. You pop off about father’s teaching their sons to use women for one thing. If my son EVER hit a women or treated her with disrespect he’d have to deal with me. My son’s mother was a saint, and a hard worker, and I wish I could turn back the clock and run the errand she was on when all this came down. If it doesn’t look like a women does anything, it’s because she does it too well. The husband’s of Red Dawn and American Women are lucky men. And you need your ass kicked for shooting off your mouth.
Big Jake, you said once before you were a fellow New Yorker. How about tonight, around 7:00, crack open a beer and I will, too. You’re my kind of guy.
Lets drink to curious staying the hell off this site and going to Tehran so he kind a women he can kick around. American women are too good for him.
September 1, 2006 at 4:40 pm
Big Jake–
Fantastic information!
You quoted Muhammad Said Ramadhan Al-Bouti as saying:
“I hold that people who cannot stand with the Islamic resistance, but can carry out, in their countries and in other places, actions that would in some way paralyze this enemy – they should indeed paralyze the enemies’ interests, and destroy their facilities wherever they may be, but on condition that they do not confuse things. In other words, innocent lives should not be lost, the action should be carefully planned, and should be limited to the people who are hostile to us. So, you are calling for a passive boycott, for example? Economic boycott is one option. This can be done by all Arab and Islamic countries. In addition, if I were asked about destroying the facilities and interests of the enemies – America and Israel – in the various countries… Does the religious law allow us to do this? yes, as long as innocent people are not killed in the process.”
Obviously, not one of these terrorists listens to him. I was watching a documentary the other day and they were interviewing the man who created Azzam.com (sp?) and he said that all people who the terrorists set their sights on were the enemy and were looked upon as “fighters”. How they actually justify this is beyond me. Just an excuse to murder anyone, because they’re depraved animals who get off on murder.
You quoted Ibrahim Al-Buleihi as saying:
“They are the product of a culture that believes the other does not deserve to live, and is an absolute enemy with whom no understanding is possible.”
I’m assuming he’s referring to those moslems that believe in “death to infidels” as opposed to the moslem culture in its entirety. There is nothing for it; they must be annihilated, those moslems that do not believe in the sacredness of life.
As Bush stated after 911, “You are either for us, or against us. ” Those that passively support the terrorists should be regarded as terrorists. Those that support the terrorist agenda even in idealogy included. Line ’em up, and take ’em out.
I’m tired of the b.s. and the moslems in this country who use their American rights to speak out for the terrorists…if you speak for the terrorists, you are the enemy. They should have their assets seized and immediately deported to the moslem nation of their choice.
zealot-
Thank you for defending American women. I am sorry for your loss and think you sound like a wonderful husband, brother, and father. I’m sure your family thinks the world of you. I’d love to have a beer with you! I’m on the east coast–I’d love to crack one open at 7:00 and toast to you and Big Jake–REAL AMERICAN men.
September 1, 2006 at 5:02 pm
To any American moslems reading this blog, I’ll put what I said above in context:
I am a christian American who does not believe in abortion–however, I do not believe doctors who perform abortions or abortion clinic should be blown up.
I dislike the IRS as much as the next American–however, I do not believe buildings that house IRS offices or IRS employees should be blown up.
I believe that Americans who believe they are justified in going out and doing such monstrous things are criminals and should be treated as such. I believe that anyone who vocally supports people who do such things are potentially dangerous themselves.
September 1, 2006 at 6:03 pm
Zealot – Like Red Dawn, I too, am so sorry for the loss of your wife. She sounds like someone who would have been a great friend! Single parenting is not easy. Your son is lucky to have you for a role model. Thank you for your comments to Curious on my behalf as well. Chivalry is not dead.
Big Jake, I think we need to get your information out to as many people as we can. Americans are gullible and too many have fallen for the “poor Hezbollah, poor Palestinians, poor Iranians” garbage perpetuated in the media that it is scary. I think your discourse on the Quran might get some attention. How do we spread the word without looking nutty?
So what does everyone (except Curious) think about the British film company doing a “fake” assassination of President Bush? Notice Americans didn’t pour into the streets burning the British flag like so many Moslems did over the comic flap.
I live in the Northeast, not far from New York. My husband is from New Hampshire. When I visited my husband-to-be for the first time, I remember being really impressed with the motto on NH plates – “Live Free or Die” – because it fits my belief system to a “T.”
September 1, 2006 at 6:17 pm
I hope I can post this here. I read it on a site called http://www.americandigest.org/ created by a man by the name of Gerard Van der Leun. He wrote this article and I think it is absolutely fantastic! It is long but a clever and insightful read.
The War of Two Religions
Through the violent attacks of a Radical Islam, two religions have been brought into conflict. The first is that of Islam, a faith that at its core requires absolute submission from its adherents, and looks towards the subjugation of the world as its ultimate apotheosis. As the youngest of the monotheistic religions, Islam is at a point in its development that Christianity passed through centuries ago. And it is not with Christianity that Islam is currently at war. Islam is saving that for the mopping up phase of its current campaign. The religion that Islam has engaged is a much younger one, the religion of Freedom.
As a religion Freedom has been gaining converts since the success of the American Revolution enabled it to go forth and be preached to the world. Freedom is easily the most popular of the new religions and historically converts nearly 100% of all populations in which it is allowed to take firm root. This is the religion which we have lately brought to Iraq.
The genius of the religion of Freedom is that it allows all other religions, from the venerable to the trivial, to exist without fear of censure or destruction. Indeed, the only thing that the religion of Freedom firmly forbids is the destruction of Freedom itself. “Thou shalt not destroy Freedom” seems to be the only commandment. And Freedom has been shown to resist efforts to destroy it in the most ferocious way. It’s enemies would do well to ponder the fate of previous attempts to do so.
On September 11, the agents of Radical Islam began their attempt to destroy Freedom by attacking it at its core. The reaction of Freedom to this assault has been, once you consider the destructive power of the weapons systems it possesses, measured, deliberate and cautious. This is because Freedom, although sorely wounded, does not yet feel that its very existence is threatened. A more serious attack at any time in the future will put paid to that specious notion.
Following a second attack at a level equal to or exceeding September 11, any political opposition to pursuing our enemies with all means at our disposal will be swept off the table. The First Terrorist War will begin in earnest and it will not be a series of small wars with long lead times and a careful consultation of allies. The war will become, virtually overnight, a global war of violent preemption and merciless attack towards the spiritual and geographic centers of our enemy. Arguments revolving around the true meaning of ‘imminent’ will be seen as they are — so much factional prattle. Due to the nature of the enemy, the First Terrorist War will be fought here and there and everywhere. It does not matter when or where the second serious strike on the American homeland takes place, it only matters that on the day after this country will be at war far beyond the current level of conflict.
[…]
During the Second World War, our system, with few alterations, brought us through to a peace in which there were greater freedoms than before the war. Victory validated our way of life. Not only were our freedoms intact in 1945 but they were poised, with the economy, for a great expansion throughout the rest of the century and into this. If you had proposed, in the summer of 1946, that within 50 years all minorities would be fully enfranchised, that women would be fully liberated, and that homosexuals would be a dominant force with their enfranchisement only a moment away, you would have been dismissed as a socialist dreamer. And yet, here we are.
The same situation can also be envisioned as the result of our victory in the First Terrorist War at the end of a less-clear but no less threatening passage of arms. But this will only happen if we remain clear about the real nature of the First Terrorist War, and committed to unequivocal victory regardless of the costs in lives and treasure. Only by matching the determination of our enemy to destroy us will we prevail. The only thing that can defeat us are a dull reliance on management, a fascination with process rather than victory and the reluctance to believe the extent to which our enemy desires our annihilation.
Beyond victory in the First Terrorist War is a greater goal. What we must seek is not merely the “control” and “containment” of terror, for terror in this guise cannot be controlled or contained. We must come to the deeper understanding that only a complete victory over the global Radical Islamic forces can prevent the onset of a confrontation more terrible than the current war.
What we must press for in the Terrorist War is a victory so decisive that we can, in the end, avoid the larger war lurking on the not-so-distant horizon – – a true war between civilizations. That war, should it come, will not take the name of The Terrorist War, but of The Islamic War.
The Terrorist War is still a struggle that can be fought and won with conventional means. An Islamic War, should it come, would engulf the world and be anything but conventional.
Vanderleun : August 21, 06
September 1, 2006 at 7:54 pm
Americanwoman–
You said “Americans are gullible and too many have fallen for the “poor Hezbollah, poor Palestinians, poor Iranians” garbage perpetuated in the media that it is scary.”
Unfortunately, these same Americans that believe the media propaganda are the ones highly unlikely to do any real research on the issue at hand because they are too complacent; much easier to have people tell you what to think and “why”, rather than formulate their own opinions based on true knowledge. That would be too much like “work”; people would far rather whine, “Can’t we all just get along???”
Since the terrorists won’t stop their war with us, these same Americans (which I believe are the majority)reason, “Well, if they have such a beef with us, it MUST be our fault. We certainly can bend over backwards for them since they won’t for us. We just want to make this all go away so we can continue on in our own little microscopic, hedonistic worlds where no great faith or idealogy or passions need to be comprehended or are required.”
This is why you hear so many American fools regurgitate that same old rhetoric the media and certain political parties spin “It’s all our fault because of our middle east policies.” When you hear them say this, ask them what our American policies in the middle east have been, since say, the 70’s to present time. I guarantee you anyone spewing this rhetoric won’t be able to pontificate with any accurate length on this.
September 1, 2006 at 9:10 pm
Zealot ,good buddy, it would be both an honor and a privilege to have a beer with you as well as Americanwoman,RedDawn ,Viber,DJ ,Duckhunter, Eagle,Mujibar and don’t forget our webhost Quayfortuna. You guys and gals are the best.
Zealot , I believe I don’t have to tell you that your beautiful wife still lives . She lives through you in everything you do as you raise your beautiful son. Look deeply into his eyes and you will see the reflection of her soul.
As he grows ,nourish him with the stories of his mother and her love for both of you. Love NEVER dies. It is just a dream postponed until we meet again.
Now lets share our thoughts tonight at 7PM .I’ll be thinking of you all . I’ll be thinking of friends lost on 9-11 at the World Trade Center.I’ll be thinking of the victims of terrorism. I’ll be saying a prayer for all the men and women serving our country, may God keep them safe and hold them in the palm of His hand
until they return. And for all our Honored Dead and wounded ,may God be with them ,lest we forget.
God Bless all of you.
God Bless the United States of America!
September 1, 2006 at 11:11 pm
Having that 7 o’clock beer now!
Here’s to you guys, you are wonderful!
Here’s to America, the last nation of hope.
Here’s most importantly to God, Yahweh, Supreme Ruler, and to His Son, Jesus Christ, who will bring, not destruction, but HOPE eternal for all of mankind.
Cheers, my friends!!!
September 1, 2006 at 11:17 pm
Cheers!
September 2, 2006 at 1:04 am
You guys are great. I didn’t give a thought that you’d be on the web site at 7:00, but just so you know, I did have a beer then and I raised it to all of you. Big Jake, I do tell my son about his Mom. A day doesn’t go by that I don’t wish she was back. I gave my sister a bunch of pictures of all of us before she died and she made a scrapbook for him with a tribute to her. He’s a great kid, and thanks to my Mom and my sister, I get a lot of help with things like birthday partys and stuff like that. But my son and I are buds. He’s into a lot of sports and I get involved in everything he does. Wouldn’t miss a game for anything. I just want him to grow up and be a good man. My wife’s name was Caroline, and she was as beautiful as her name. I’ll always love her. Thanks.
September 2, 2006 at 11:37 am
I’ll stay off this site but not before I say one more time that I think you all suck.
Zealot, I hope you got his side of the story before you beat him up. Chances are, your sister probably led him on. No guy does that after a couple of dates. Your sister did something to set him off. She got what women like her deserve.
And as far as the rest of it goes, it doesn’t sound like you were married for very long. Chances are, if that wouldn’t have happened your son would be with your wife across town with another guy and you’d be paying for it.
1In my opinion, you were lucky.
I’m done here.
September 2, 2006 at 2:10 pm
Good Riddance to Bad RUBBISH
September 2, 2006 at 2:22 pm
Interesting article in todays NY Times .What strikes me is the similarity of the problem of arab migration in the microcosm of Iraq to the Moslem immigration problem in Europe ,Australia and the US.
September 2, 2006 at 2:33 pm
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5/4/2006 Clip No. 1132
Former Hizbullah Secretary-General Subhi Al-Tufeili Criticizes Hizbullah for Its Relations with Iran and Says Iran Brought America into Iraq to Topple Saddam
Following are excerpts from an interview with former Hizbullah secretary-general Subhi Al-Tufeili, which aired on Al-Arabiya TV on May 4, 2006.
Interviewer: How would you characterize your relationship with the current Hizbullah leadership, and especially with Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah?
Subhi Al-Tufeili: We have no relations. Since 1997, we have had no relations.
Interviewer: Why? What is the main disagreement?
Subhi Al-Tufeili: When I called upon them to defend our people, they refused and said: “Go. We will oppose you.”
Interviewer: What was the reason?
Subhi Al-Tufeili: They are committed to the Iranian policy.
[…]
I have said before that the Shiites in Lebanon serve as Iran’s “playing ground” in the following sense: The resistance has been dragged into things that are not resistance. Today, we have no resistance, I’m sad to say.
[…]
We are a resistance organization. We have an enemy which has occupied our Jerusalem and our land. It has spilled our blood for more than half a century.
Interviewer: So you are Arab resistance, not Lebanese…
Subhi Al-Tufeili: We are Islamic resistance – an Arab resistance and even broader than that. This is what our religion has instructed us, and this was where we began. When we established the resistance, this was our point of departure. The motto of the resistance was the liberation of Jerusalem. That’s how we started.
This kind of resistance must continue. Today it is not resistance, but merely a border police. This is painful not only for me, but to our youth as well. I know them well, because I raised them myself. They are good people, pure people, who love defense, martyrdom-seeking, and Jihad. It pains them that they are stopped at the border.
This is a tragedy. The weapons of the resistance have been transformed from weapons used to strike fear in the hearts of the enemy into weapons we use to strike fear in the hearts of one another.
The resistance used to constitute glory, power, and honor for all Lebanese. Today, because it stands at the border this way, it has turned into an internal problem. Today we have the internal problem of the weapons of the resistance. What are we going to do with these weapons? One says keep them, another says disarm, a third says incorporate them in the army, and so on. The country is on the brink of civil war because of this conflict.
Interviewer: What do you, Sheik Subhi Al-Tufeili, say about this internal problem of the weapons of the resistance?
Subhi Al-Tufeili: The reason for this problem is that the resistance has given up its role.
Interviewer: So if they had carried out operations within the Israeli, or Palestinian, borders, the internal problem of the weapons of the resistance would not have existed?
Subhi Al-Tufeili: With your permission, I’d like to ask a question instead. Is there anybody in Lebanon, or even outside Lebanon – in Syria, Iraq, Iran, Palestine, anywhere – who would say no to the liberation of Palestine?
Interviewer: No one is saying no to the liberation of Palestine, but it depends on the methods. The Palestinian people have decided to sign a peace treaty, Sheik.
Subhi Al-Tufeili: Let us not get into the small details. I know that if we were to conduct a survey in Lebanon, or anywhere else in the Islamic world, I believe that most of the people – and I don’t want to say all of them… The vast majority of the people would be willing to pay the price, with their children, with their own lives, and with the destruction of their country, for the liberation of Jerusalem. The issue of Jerusalem for us…
Interviewer: You are very optimistic, Sheik. People would pay for the liberations of Jerusalem with their children, while the Palestinians have signed a peace treaty with the Israelis?
Subhi Al-Tufeili: Okay, okay. We need to put things in the proper context. The deceit, lies, threats, deception, and all the despicable methods that were used in order to force the Palestinians to agree to the plundering of their land – the recent elections have proven that all this is gone.
[…]
Hizbullah definitely fosters its relations with the Syrians, but its real leadership is “the rule of the jurisprudent” – in other words, Khamenei.
[…]
The Iranians wanted to get rid of Saddam by bringing the Americans into Iraq. This is a very grave responsibility that they bear.
Interviewer: Do you contend that they foster the American plan?
Subhi Al-Tufeili:They wanted this, and they sent Iraqis to America in order to reassure the Americans that they should come to Iraq.
[…]
Interviewer: Do you support [Iranian] nuclear weapons today?
Subhi Al-Tufeili: I’m in favor, I support, and I am willing to make sacrifices so that all the Islamic countries and peoples will develop scientifically in terms of nuclear and other technologies. We cannot remain at the bottom of the ladder of humanity. The justifications that many people use are invalid, in my opinion.
I defend the nuclear development of Saudi Arabia with the same passion and fervor with which I defend the development of Iran, Turkey, or Pakistan, in the hope that the rulers will go, and this technology, science, knowledge and capabilities will remain in the hands of the peoples, which will survive. We cannot continue to be left as prey for those who want to devour us.
September 2, 2006 at 10:48 pm
re:post#181
AnotherMAD from Turkey asks:
is it true that christian inquision courts were burning girls because they are witches. or torturing people?
muslims never burn people. they cut hands and foots and heads.
and I respond:
It was true about 500 years ago. It is not a current practice in Judeo-Christian society today. However .. as far as Muslim society is concerned, the clock stopped 500 years ago. chopping off of “foots and hands” still goes on today as well as the “cutting of necks”.
We readers of this blog now know that “muslims never burn people” because it is Allahs punishment.
“. . . The news of this event reached Ibn Abbas [Muhammad’s cousin and highly reliable transmitter of traditions] who said, “If I had been in his [Ali’s] place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Messenger forbad it, saying, ‘Do no punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah Messenger, ‘Whoever change[s] his Islamic religion, then kill him.’” (Bukhari, Apostates, no. 6922; online source)”
re: post #270
Americanwoman:
“I think we need to get your information out to as many people as we can. Americans are gullible and too many have fallen for the “poor Hezbollah, poor Palestinians, poor Iranians” garbage perpetuated in the media that it is scary. I think your discourse on the Quran might get some attention. How do we spread the word without looking nutty?”
We have to refer to this blog as a reference point when the topic comes up and not remain silent when we are confronted with uninformed
fellow Americans who promote the “poor Hezbollah, poor Palestinians, poor Iranians”
argument.
Islam will be a “Religion of Peace” only when all other religions have been eradicated.
September 3, 2006 at 3:57 am
key phrase -see post #256 re:Apostasy in the Quran
“Would you agree to become apostates, Jews, or Christians? Would you agree to abandon the religion of Islam?”
3/17/2006 Clip No. 1078
The Will of Fahd Al-Farraj, Al-Qaeda Commander in Saudi Arabia
Following are excerpts from a recorded will of Al-Qaeda Commander in Saudi Arabia Fahd Al Farraj, aired on http://www.alsaha.com on March 17, 2006:
The will of commander Fahd bin Farraj Al-Jweir Al-Farraj, one of the commanders of Al-Qaeda organization in the Arabian Peninsula.
Fahd Al-Farraj in training in the Arabian Peninsula.
The Battar Camp.
Drive the polytheists out of the Arabian Peninsula.
Fahd Al Farraj: I want to clarify and to reiterate the goals we wish to accomplish, with Allah’s help, and to respond to some doubts about the mujahideen, raised by the scholars of evil, who level such accusations against them. First of all, the goal of our Jihad is to elevate the word of Allah, to drive the polytheists out of the peninsula of Muhammad, to apply his law in all aspects of life and on all people, and to remove injustice from our oppressed brothers everywhere.
[…]
To all the Muslim peoples wherever they may be, I say: How long will you remain silent? How long will you accept this humiliation and degredation? How long will you continue to be ruled by the law of the tyrants, yet remain silent? Where is your Islam? Where is your worship of Allah? Islam is not a religion in name only – It is a religion of faith and action. The Crusaders, the Hindus, the Zoroastrians, and their apostate helpers rule and control you and your brothers. They are fighting against your religion, and are fighting you in your livelihood. They are violating your honor, yet you remain silent. Have your humiliation and degradation brought you that low? Would you agree to become apostates, Jews, or Christians? Would you agree to abandon the religion of Islam?
[…]
I ask every Muslim on the face of the earth: would you agree that one of these infidels enter your home, and violate the honor of your sister, your mother, or your daughter? Of course you would not. The women in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Indonesia, Kashmir, and the Philippines are our sisters, our mothers, and our daughters. I am amazed how you can continue to sleep undisturbed, while your brothers are being killed, and the honor of your sisters is being violated. Awaken from your slumber, and support your oppressed brothers. Fight for the sake of Allah, and you will receive one of the two good things: victory or martyrdom.
[…]
To the security forces, I say: I am amazed at you. When you are told to wage jihad, you cling to this world. But when [Saudi Interior Minister Prince] Naif Bin Abd Al-‘Aziz tells you to sell your souls to his government and to fight for his sake, and to defend the Americans, in exchange for 3,000 rials and hell – you are willing to sell your souls cheaply. Have you stooped so low? Are your souls worthless for you? He calls you “martyrs of duty”, but think what you will say to Allah if you meet him, after having killed a mujaheed who fought for the sake of Allah, in order to defend the Americans, or if he killed you when you were defending the tyrants. Stop working for the tyrant, and join the mujahideen, otherwise – you know full well who the mujahideen are, and what they have prepared for those who stand in their way.
[..]
To the Saudi government, I say: All I say to you us what the Prophet Muhammad said to the infidels of Qureysh, when he was alone: “I have brought slaughter upon you.” By Allah, your kingdom will come to an end. The mujahideen will defeat you. Do you know why? Because Allah supports us, and no one supports you. Do you know why? Because Allah said in the Koran: “If you support Allah, He will support you,” and we trust and believe in the promise of Allah. If you only knew what our young men have in store for you, you would be busy arranging your escape from this peninsula.
[…]
To the Americans, I say: get out of the peninsula of Muhammad, and all the lands of the Muslims, and stop supporting the Jews in Palestine and the Christians in the lands of the Muslims. Otherwise, you will encounter only death, destruction, and explosions.
September 3, 2006 at 2:47 pm
#281 – “Islam will be a “Religion of Peace” only when all other religions have been eradicated.”
I think this statement is too simplistic. With absolute power comes absolute corruption. It’s a certainty. There will always be people who will stand up and fight a corrupt group, so we will always have the formation of other religions/groups who fight the rulers, resulting in (in this scenario) constant challenges to Islam (with the result that Islam will never be peaceful).
I think the radical Moslems know they can never have “Islam for everyone” as long as Americans exist on the planet (Brits, Germans, Aussies, as well). We are too used to our freedoms and look at them as a right. The only chance they have to further their cause, is to wipe us out. That’s really what it boils down to.
We had better wake up, especially our politicians who are failing all good Americans by their bickering and lack of unity.
September 3, 2006 at 8:48 pm
281 – “Islam will be a “Religion of Peace” only when all other religions have been eradicated.”
Americanwoman :
I added that comment to counter anyone who says that Islam is a peaceful religion. It is a religion of war, of Jihad, of blood and fire.
It is diametrically opposed to everything we believe and hold precious.
Freedom of Religion- in Islam there is none -you are either Muslim or the Other (an Apostate,Christian, Jew or Hindu)
Freedom of Speech – in Islam there is none . Step out of line ,the man comes and takes you away- Fatwa and the cutting of necks.
If anybody thinks that this isn’t a clash of civilizations ,they better go back to the history books. They mean to wipe us out or to convert us. Look at the pronouncement from Al Qaeda OFFERING President Bush and the American People the opportunity to convert to Islam or accept the consequences, and the offer to American and Nato forces in Afganistan to change sides .
September 3, 2006 at 11:14 pm
Big Jake, I agree. The latest tape from our “friends” says exactly what you’ve described in the past few days. They’re giving us the chance to convert and by saying no, it’s now okay to slaughter us. Makes you wonder if there’s something in the works for the very near future.
.
September 4, 2006 at 1:09 am
Eagle, Red Dawn, Viber, Zealot – hope you all are taking a few days of well deserved rest. I look forward to corresponding with you when you return and am sure Big Jake does, too.
Quay, are you by chance related to Mr. Hodges?
September 4, 2006 at 1:15 am
Let’s not get carried away here. They have just tipped their hand (or shall I say we finally understand where they are comming from)as to their long range goal which is religious world domination.
Religious world domination is also a Christian goal. Christians believe that we must spread the Gospel so that all may be saved and avoid final damnation. Ours is a beneficent desire toward mankind.Spreading the Gospel is the goal . Reception of the message is purely voluntary.
Theirs is something other than that.
Whether or not something is up in the near future may or may not be so. This could be propaganda bravado to counter the heavy losses AlQaeda and the Taliban just suffered (200 dead in Kandahar). Hopefully ,our guys are listening for increased “chatter” which always has preceeded attacks.
September 4, 2006 at 1:27 am
Big Jake, I hope you are correct. I know we have really good people in the CIA, DHS, and FBI, but our human intelligence leaves a bit to be desired in this area, thanks to President Clinton in many ways and President Bush pre 9-11. I thank you for the reality check, though. My husband says the same thing about a potential attack. It’s comforting to hear it from another educated source because I’m not completely prepared (although I continue to work on it). I just wish I could get my friends to do the same. Once prepared, you don’t have to dwell on the possibility so much. Know what I mean?
September 4, 2006 at 1:38 am
And I hear you on the Christian goal as well. I’ve got a cousin who is a doctor. He went to Africa (almost got killed there with his wife and son) to spread the word on Christianity. He’s a nice guy, a bit spoiled by my Aunt and Uncle, but it always bothered me that his primary goal there was not to practice much needed medicine, but spread the word about his religion. It’s one of the big problems I have with religion. I’m willing to admit that having no religion isn’t any better because it’s every “man for himself” in that case. I believe in a higher entity, a God, and will go to my death believing the 10 commandments are “the” way we should all strive to live our lives as long as the commandments are taken with some common sense. For instance, I believe in “Thou shalt not kill” to mean one should not go out and randomly kill another human being. If someone attacks me or one of my kids, I’m gonna fight back with death to our attacker in mind.
September 4, 2006 at 2:23 am
Americanwoman: I guess I did want to take a few days off after the last post from our “friend”. I’ve never really come across anyone quite like that and he’s anonymous so you can’t really do anything about it other than take it. It just gnaws at me that he can have such low opinions about people he doesn’t even know. I don’t care what he thinks of me, but talking about my sister and my wife like that. I hate it. My wife was terrific and so’s my sister. I read the way you feel about your husband, and that’s so great, but it made me think how much I miss my wife and how lucky your husband is. My wife was awesome. She’s been dead 7 years, and sometimes I feel like it just happened yesterday. My son hardly knew her, but he even acts like her sometimes. He says things like she would say them. He smiles like her. Then to have some creep talk down about her, like she was something cheap, I don’t know. I can’t explain it. She was my mine. All mine. And what we had was good. People tell me someday I’ll “find someone”. I don’t think that will ever happen. I’m not even looking. I just want her. I don’t know why I’m going on about this, just his post got to me the other day. I do want to keep doing this with all of you. It helps me stay sane. And you’re all so smart. I probably sound like an idiot most of the time. It’s been good getting this off my chest. Ya know, you and Red Dawn, I like you, the way you stand by your men. I really like that. I’m learning a lot from all the posts. Jake, you’re a smart guy.
September 4, 2006 at 2:32 am
American woman re post#289:
The Fifth Commandment Thou Shalt not kill means you shall mot commit murder. It doesn’t mean you can’t defend yourself or your loved ones.
The 10 Commandments lay out the basic rules to live by .Respect for God ,respect for parents and family ,respect for the rights of others.
I-I am the Lord thy God ,Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
II- Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord Thy God in vain.
III-Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath
IV-Honor thy Father and thy Mother
V- Thou shalt not kill
VI-Thou shalt not commit adultry
VII-Thou shalt not steal
VIII Thou shalt not bare false witness against thy neighbor.
IX Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife
X Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors goods
Love thy neighbor was, in part, Jesus’ answer when the Pharisees, the chief religious sect of that day, asked Him about the greatest commandment in the Law (See Matthew 22:36-40).
He responded:
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
This is the essence of Christianity as I know it.
September 4, 2006 at 3:01 am
ZEALOT ,Good Buddy, great to have you back.
Don’t let that jerk get under your skin . He has no class ,never will. One of these days he will shoot off his mouth to the wrong guy . It will be the last thing he ever does.
By the way, if I was ever in a fight ,I’d be lucky to have someone like you backing me up.
Courage and honor ,Spirit and Guts.
September 4, 2006 at 3:16 am
As most of you know by now I’m a big fan of John Wayne, I came across this article and i want to share it with all of you.
JOHN WAYNE IN HEAVEN?
Most of you know John Wayne as an actor. You may not know what happened to him before he died. This is that story.
Robert Schuller’s teenage daughter, Cindy, was in a motorcycle accident and had to have her leg amputated. John Wayne was a big fan of Robert Schuller. He heard Dr. Schuller say on one of his programs that his daughter had been in an accident and had to have her leg amputated.
John Wayne wrote a note to her saying: Dear Cindy, sorry to hear about your accident. Hope you get to be all right. Signed John Wayne.
The note was delivered to her and she decided she wanted to write John Wayne a note in reply. She wrote: Dear Mr. Wayne, I got your note. Thanks for writing me. I like you very much. I am going to be all right because Jesus is going to help me. Mr. Wayne, do you know Jesus? I sure hope you know Jesus, Mr. Wayne, because I cannot imagine heaven being complete without John Wayne being there. I hope, if you don’t know Jesus, that you will give your heart to Jesus right now. See you in heaven. And then signed her name.
She had just put that letter in an envelope, sealed it, and written across the front of it “John Wayne” when a visitor came into her room to see her. He said to her: What are you doing?
She said: I just wrote a letter to John Wayne, but I don’t know how to get it to him.
He said: That’s funny, I am going to have dinner with John Wayne tonight at the Newport Club down at Newport Beach. Give it to me and I will give it to him. She gave him the letter and he put it in his coat pocket.
There were twelve of them that night sitting around the table for dinner. They were laughing and cutting up and the guy happened to reach in his pocket and felt that letter and remembered. John Wayne was seated at the end of the table and the guy took the letter out and said: Hey, Duke, I was in Schuller’s daughter’s room today and she wrote you a letter and wanted me to give it to you. Here it is. They passed it down to John Wayne and he opened it. They kept on laughing and cutting up and someone happened to look down at John Wayne. He was crying. One of them said: Hey, Duke, what is the matter? He said (and can’t you hear him saying it?): I want to read you this letter.
He read that letter. Then he began to weep. He folded it, put it in his pocket, and he pointed to the man who delivered it to him and said: You go tell that little girl that right now, in this restaurant, right here, John Wayne gives his heart to Jesus Christ and I will see her in heaven.
Three weeks later he was dead.
September 4, 2006 at 11:21 am
Re: 286 — Sorry, ma’am, I know no “Mr. Hodges.”
September 4, 2006 at 12:18 pm
Big Jake. After reading everything on here about Islam and christianity and especially after reading your 292 and 293 posts I remembered my wife had a bible that I kept in a box of her things I was saving to give my son when he got older. I got it out and was flipping through it. She had stuff underlined and highlighted and things written in the margins. She used to talk about God a lot and she always went to church. I used to go with her once in a while. Not a lot. She always told me she whe was praying for me. I’m a fireman so I always thought it was because she was always worried. Just want you to know, John Wayne is a man’s man. I believe my wife is in heaven, so if I ever want to see her again, I better make sure I get there too. So, I asked Jesus to come in to my heart a few minutes ago, and it’s weird, but I feel so good about it. I’m going to tell my son and the rest of my family. I don’t know much about this or even what I’m doing, but it just feels right. Can’t wait to meet John Wayne and someday, probably all of you.
September 4, 2006 at 3:37 pm
Zealot , Wow … The same thing happened to me.
That’s why I posted it.
My Dad passed away unexpectedly about 15 years ago. I couldn’t accept it and it hurt like hell.
My Dad was a good man. I believe he is in Heaven ,too. I realized that if I was ever to be able to see him again, I better make sure I get there and help anyone else I meet along the way.
Getting there is like running a marathon. You have good stretches and bad. You get winded and fall. But then you get up and get back in the race.
In this marathon, you also have to help your fellow runners finish. Its like the Ranger credo “Never leave a man behind”. and don’t forget “Rangers lead the way!”
Two movies that gave me alot of comfort and that I highly recommend are “Field of Dreams ”
and “Frequency”. If you havent seen them go out and get them. You’ll thank me for it.
ps I had a feeling that you were a fireman.
September 4, 2006 at 7:26 pm
Hope all are having (or had) a nice Labor Day holiday. “Curious;” what a piece of work. As my mom used to say, “Empty vessels make the most noise.” We can only hope he fills himself with The Holy Spirit and God’s love. Soon…
Zealot: I don’t mean to rub a sore spot, but wish to add my “two-cents-worth.” I went through two horrible divorces with the same woman (recycle plastic, aluminum, etc, not spouses!). Why? I thought my daughter should be raised by her mother and I tried to make it work. Divorce: not as bad as the death of the spouse you love, but almost as bad as you see them wandering down a path you know they shouldn’t be on. Where am I going with this? After “crawling into a beer can” for a little while (Yes, I made sure my daughter was seen to and did not let the beer interfere with her care) I asked God for a good woman. He answered and we’ve been married for 14 years. Paula’s views of the world, politics, and life in general are in sync with mine. Once you are ready just ask God for what you need. He doesn’t always send you what (you think) you want.
Is it just me or is any one else waiting for the “Operation Barbarosa” moment in Venezuela? Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Venezuela a Catholic country? Aren’t the Catholics right up at the top (or bottom) of the muslim $#!* list? Odd that the Islamic Republic of Iran would throw in with the likes of Chavez and his crusader regime. Or have I missed that he converted to Islam?
I guess Chaves didn’t learn ANYTHING in history class. If Iranian Pres Ahm-ah-nut-job claims the holocost didn’t happen and who knows what else he dodesn’t recognize as fact in WW II history, then does Chavez think that Hitler had a “misunderstanding” with Joseph Stalin/Benito Mussolini/Hideki Tojo? Hitler and his followers, as the muslims, saw themselves eventually achieving world domination. Is Chavez so naive that he thinks that the islamic extremists won’t come after him in South America when all the other “infidels” are wiped out?
And what about Kim Jong (mentally) Ill in North Korea? Does he think that the extremists will really be happy with just Indochina?
Is something going to happen soon? I can’t say. My magic eight ball, ouiji board, tarot cards, and goat entrails don’t agree ; )
In regards to our observations of the folks that quote the liberal media. A good friend of mine calls such folk “sheeple.” I drift between that term and simply referring to them as “ostriches.”
Since we’re tipping our hands a little, I’m in the USAF Reserves and away from home for a while (state-side, fortunately) and this forum has helped with not being able to sit and solve the problems of the world over a glass of wine with Paula of an evening.
So, God Bless all of us and may we stay ever vigilant. Thanks Big Jake for your excellent info, Eagle, the same, Zealot, for the chance to let you see that you are not alone, American Woman and Red Dawn, for proving there are some women that care more for their families than what most mysoginistic twerps may think.
Kaplah!
September 4, 2006 at 9:09 pm
296 Big Jake, as always I appreciate you. Sorry about your Dad. I think I saw Field of Dreams a long time ago. It’s about the baseball field, right? I’ll watch it again and maybe I’ll see it in a different way. And what tipped you off that I’m a fireman? I must be a pretty easy guy to figure out.
297 DJ. Thanks for the advice. I did date a girl for a while about a year after my wife died. I thought my son needed a mother because I was pretty much going nuts trying to take care of him by myself. In the beginning all he wanted was his mother anyway so it was a pretty tuff time at first. I almost married this girl, but I knew it was more out of lonliness than anything else. Nice girl, but when it came right down do it, it didn’t feel right and I was still thinking about my wife all the time. She knew it but she thought she could make me forget her. Didn’t happen. She still calls me from time to time and shows up at my house once in a while. I work with a lot of guys who have great wives, and a lot of guys who really hate to go home nights. Some are divorced and I know I wouldn’t want to go through what they have gone through. Some of these wives really go for the juggler. I don’t think Caroline and I ever would’ve split up. We were married 5 years, but we were together about 3 years before that and we were happy. She knew me better than I knew me and she always kept me calmed down and relaxed. I used to be a real hot head. Worse than you might think I am now. But, I think now I am going to start reading the bible. I tried to pray a little bit, but it felt funny. Like I was talking to myself. I told my sister about asking Jesus into my heart. She said she thought that was nice but not to get weird on the family. I do have a good buddy that’s a christian. I’ll see him tomorrow and I’ll tell him. Like you, I like being on this web site and being able to talk things out. It wouldn’t be smart for me to reveal my “tender” side at the firehouse That could get rough. And as far as curious goes, I would love to get my hands on him and slap the shit out of him before I get into the bible too much and can’t do it.
Thanks guys. I’ll get back to more of what this website is all about after I catch up on everything.
Thanks, and God Bless all of you.
September 4, 2006 at 9:15 pm
Quay, check out The Gypsy Scholar’s website. He has given you a nice compliment.
http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/2006/07/abu-bakr-najis-management-of-savagery_18.html
Zealot, I certainly don’t compare my knowledge with that of others in this exchange. They know far more about the bible and the Quran than I. I watch a lot of news (mainly FOX, CNN, and BBC to get coverage on all sides)and I read internet news pages like some read magazines. I like to try to keep informed about what’s going on in the regions my husband may find himself in. He always tells me to take any reporting by the media with a huge grain of salt because 9 times out of 10 they get the details wrong or glorify the picture in their rush to report first.
Like Big Jake, I am not surprised to hear that you are a Fireman. Thank you for your service! You all don’t get paid enough for what you do day in and day out. What do you and your fellow firefighters think about this movement saying 9-11 was a hoax perpetuated by Bush? There are college professors at quite a few universities saying that there were no Moslem hijcakers on those jets on 9-11 and that the Towers were brought down because they were wired for explosives to ignite on impact. The images of that day that I will never forget are of people jumping to their deaths from 100+ floors high and the firefighters, police, and EMT’s going into the towers as they burned. We were stationed in Germany at the time. My husband was stateside attending a military conference. I wanted him to take a ship back to Germany!
Big Jake, thanks for the reprint on the big 10 … needed that.
DJ – glad you found Paula! There are lots of great women out there just like there are lots of great men. Sometimes, you’ve gotta kiss a couple toads before you find the real thing. I was lucky and continue to remain lucky in that my husband has returned a-okay from three missions in Afghanistan. I do understand wanting to find someone to help raise the kids, but having been the product of divorced parents at the age of 19, it’s hard to find a spouse who will love another person’s kids like their own. I’m glad Paula can. Hang on to her. Your kids will appreciate it!
September 4, 2006 at 9:34 pm
Zealot, saw you posted about the same time I did. You’ll know the real thing when it comes into your life. It’ll probably come out of the clear blue and it may take you a little while to realize it! Curious got under my skin, too. He’s probably still monitoring this site and that will make him very happy being the true jerk he is. I’d like to call him every name in the book and I know some good ones! He is a person filled with such hate and contempt … is it any wonder why women are mean to him? Anyway, it meant a lot to hear the good guys on this post come to defense of me, Red Dawn, and Viber. Thanks, guys!
Big Jake, I lost my mom a little over a year ago. We only had one fight in our entire mother-daughter years together. I miss her … especially now with things so uncertain on Earth. I thank God for my husband and know I have to be strong for my kids. I’m sorry for the loss of your dad! My older brother died of a massive, sudden and completely unexpected heart attack at the age of 44. We were very close and I was actually flying out to OK to see him, his family, and my mom but he died three days before I got there. I know there is a heaven because I experienced a phenomenon about 2 weeks after he died. Some would say I’m nuts, but I know what happened and I don’t care what anyone thinks. I had a similar experience when my mother-in-law and mom died within a month of one another.
Talk to you soon!
September 5, 2006 at 1:48 am
Americanwoman, would you be willing to share your phenomenon? If it’s too personal, I understand. I’d like to hear about it. I won’t think you’re nuts. I know nuts, and you’re not it.
None of the firefighters I know would take too kindly to having anyone say that 9-11 was a hoax. I wouldn’t even want to hear anyone saying that. I don’t think any of the Professors in NY are teaching that. We’d all probably run them out of town if they were. I think it’s insulting to everyone that lost anyone in that tragedy and Bush didn’t perpetuate that any more than I did. To me, teaching something like that is an act of treason and anyone teaching it should be prosecuted and stripped of their credentials. They’re obviously idiots and shouldn’t be anywhere near an educational institution. If they really are teaching that, I don’t know how they’re getting away with it. I don’t know how American people would LET them get away with it. 9-11 sure woke me up. My wife died in 1999, so that was still pretty new. My son was staying at my Mom’s for a few days because all of us were called out, and I remember when I finally got to her house, he just came running out the door and jumped up to me. I just hugged him and cried for the longest time. That was the first time I really cried. I couldn’t put him down. I’ll never forget it. All he said was I’m glad you’re home Daddy. H’ed just wipe the tears off my face and hug me back. I had been so depressed for so long, and after that, I was so glad I still had my son and that I was alive. I realized how much I love America and my fellow Americans. And how much I’d fight to protect what I have and love. You said, thank you for my service. Well, my hat’s off to your husband and every American soldier. I look up to all of them. I’m sorry about your Mom and your brother, too. Those sudden deaths are something else. No one can understand it until they go through it.
It’s getting late and I need some sleep.
God Bless America
September 5, 2006 at 4:32 am
#297 DJ-Welcome back- Paula sounds like your ideal soulmate . I’m happy for both of you.
Regarding Iran and Chavez – Geo-politics makes strange bed-fellows. Chavez will align himself with anyone who opposes the U.S. and the Bush administration. In the 1800’s at the height of British Power and influence , it was common for lesser powers to “tweak the Lion’s tail”. As this is the “American Century” so to speak ,I
guess Chavez and his ilk get their jollies by plucking the Eagle’s feather.
#298 Zealot -you wrote:
“Big Jake, as always I appreciate you. Sorry about your Dad. I think I saw Field of Dreams a long time ago. It’s about the baseball field, right? I’ll watch it again and maybe I’ll see it in a different way. And what tipped you off that I’m a fireman? I must be a pretty easy guy to figure out”.
When you watch “Field of Dreams” remember what I posted in #296
“Getting there is like running a marathon. You have good stretches and bad. You get winded and fall. But then you get up and get back in the race.
In this marathon, you also have to help your fellow runners finish”.
This Marathon is akin to a pilgrimage.
“Field of Dreams” is really about a Pilgrimage.
Life is a pilgrimage ,a journey hopefully to a better place.
As you may recall, Ray Kinsella hears a voice that tells him to build a baseball field in his cornfield in Iowa. He goes on a mystical cross-country journey (a pilgrimage) for reasons unknown to him at the time. He discovers those reasons at various points in his journey. He finds that while helping others ,he is ultimately helping himself.
You asked how I knew you were a fireman. I didn’t know. My post #292
“By the way, if I was ever in a fight ,I’d be lucky to have someone like you backing me up.
Courage and honor ,Spirit and Guts”.
I sensed it from your posts. When you see “Frequency” you will know what I’m talking about . You remind me of the character Frank Sullivan ,a Fireman deeply in love with his wife and his son. Keep the phrase “Spirit and Guts ” in mind while you watch the movie.
By the way , are you a Met fan?
Zealot, I started my pilgrimage 15 years ago.
You are asking the same questions ,looking for the same answers (POST #301) that I am looking for. The journey you are on will bring you the peace you desire and deserve.
September 5, 2006 at 11:41 am
I know this blog is about Iran and terrorism.
It may seem that I have gone off topic alot lately ,but I really haven’t.
Islamo-fascists hate everything American. Our Freedom, our way of life.
I want to remind everybody not to take anything for granted and to celebrate each day, those freedoms we so cherish.
September 5, 2006 at 12:23 pm
Re: Big Jake #302. I check in on the site almost daily. I simply don’t post when one of our fellow posters says something very eloquently. It’s hard to improve on perfection. I appreciate “spending time” with folks of similar “cloth.”
God Bless
September 5, 2006 at 6:13 pm
Big Jake #302 – Let’s see Chavez is best buds with Fidel and now Amahdinejad. What’s not to love? (Sorry, couldn’t resist a bit of humor.)
Zealot – I was in OK for two weeks following my brother’s death. My mom was completely devastated. When I came back east, my husband picked me up at the airport and immediately headed out for some training in Canada. Until my husband went to Afghanistan, I was a total chicken to stay alone at night and I never slept much. I used to check the locks on the windows and doors twice before going to bed. I’d jam a chair under the door knob on a couple doors – probably not too smart from a fire standpoint. Anyway, the first night back home after my brother’s death, I got the little ones to bed early so I could get everything ready for work the next day. I went through my nightly routine of checking locks and went to bed. As I lay there just thinking about how much I was going to miss talking to my brother and wondering how the family would go on without him, I closed my eyes and a couple seconds later, I felt someone sit on the bed at my knees. My split second thought was of terror thinking somehow someone had gotten in. Then I felt a gentle hand on my knee and I had the most incredible sense of peace. I knew it was my brother. I didn’t want to open my eyes because I didn’t want to see that he wouldn’t be there. He communicated to me via unspoken thought that everything would be okay, we’d see each other again, and he wanted me to go on and be happy. Then the bed lifted and I had a peaceful night’s sleep. It wasn’t easy sailing as far as missing him goes after that, but it did give me a firm faith that there is a heaven. My mother-in-law lives in NH and she passed away unexpectedly one month before my mom. I was out in OK with my youngest child helping to care for my mom in the end stages of brain cancer when my mother-in-law died. A couple of nights after my mom died, I was following my daughter and nephew in the yard while they played and I saw a white piece of paper in a planter I had cleaned out about a week earlier. I didn’t think much of it and figured one of the kids put it there. I walked by it without picking it up. They circled the planter again. Something told me to pick the paper up. I did and when I turned it over I saw it was a business card for a car dealer rep in Concord, NH (down the street from where my mother-in-law) lived. It had a picture of a Dodge Magnum on it. The last time my mom had been in NH was in 1985 when I married my husband. We haven’t lived there since 1986. My mother-in-law quit driving years ago, so she wouldn’t have needed that card. So how did a relatively new business card from this NH car dealer end up in a planter in Lawton, OK? My husband hadn’t arrived yet and my brother who was there is from TX. I think my mother-in-law left it so I’d know they’d both made it to heaven and were happy. I had told her about the experience I had with my brother and we promised we’d try to leave a sign for one another if we passed away. It’s weird but I am a firm believer.
Good news on the oil front today … looks like they found a big producer in the Gulf. I still think we need to start looking for decent alternative fuels so we can tell the Arabs, Chavez, and anyone else wanting to see us fail to pound sand.
September 5, 2006 at 10:30 pm
#302 Big Jake, yeah, I like the Mets. They’re doing really good this year. Maybe they’ll finally get to the series. I think they’re selling play off tickets now.
Later….just got some company
September 5, 2006 at 11:18 pm
Zealot, there’s some teacher at the University of Vermont and then some professor in the midwest who are openly teaching their students that 9-11 was a hoax. At first I just dismissed them, but then I noticed they started to gain more coverage (Fox News morning interviewed the guy in the midwest and I think Brian, Steve, and ED wanted to shoot him). I did a little research on the net and found a site on Wikipedia that outlines their argument. Wikipedia does a pretty good job of remaining neutral, but it concerns me that they’d even have the stuff on their site because by doing so, it gives the idea some credibility. I completely agree with you that it is utterly disprectful for any of the victims, their families, and I’ll go so far to say anyone who was in the vicinity of the crashes that day to make such statements. My kids will never go to the colleges and universities who have teachers like that on staff. My list of good colleges gets smaller by the day. I took Columbia University off the list when that jerk Nicholas DeGenoa openly said he hoped American troops would suffer 1000 deaths in Iraq (at the start of the war). I don’t know what made me angrier, that an American would actually say something like that or that the students present in the audience would actually clap the way they did. I wonder what our professors who are against fighting terrorists think of Ahmadinejad’s statement today that they need to purge secular/liberals from the university system in Iran. I’d be willing to bet that if DeGenoa had said he hoped Iranian troops suffered 1000 deaths with a fight against America, that he wouldn’t wake up the next morning. Where is the balance in our college system?
Well, can’t wait for the opening NFL games this weekend! Go ‘Skins! (I like the Patriots, too.)
September 6, 2006 at 2:14 am
6/16/2005 Clip No. 718
Coptic Priest Zakariya Boutrus on the Spreading of Islam
The following are excerpts from an discussion with Coptic Priest Zakariya Boutrus, which aired on Al-Hayat TV on June 16, 2005
Boutrus: Islam, as portrayed in the encyclopedia of Islam, in the Koran and the Hadith, was spread by means of the sword.
“The sword played a major role in spreading Islam in the past, and it is the sword that preserves Islam today. Islam relies upon Jihad in spreading the religion.” This is very clear in the encyclopedia. This appears in section 11, page. 3,245. It says: “Spreading Islam by means of the sword is a duty incumbent upon all Muslims.” Thus, Islam is spread by means of the sword.
Another thing is the punishment for apostate. “The punishment of killing any Muslim who abandons Islam is one of the most important factors terrifying all Muslim. He does not dare question the truth of Islam, so that his thoughts will not lead him to abandon Islam. In such a case, he would receive the punishment for apostasy: He would lose his life, and his property and wives would permitted for all.”
This reminds me of a true story that I heard about the preachers who spread Islam in Africa. They reached a certain place in order to spread Islam, and they asked one of the locals: “Do you prefer to worship one god and have four wives, or to worship three gods and have one wife? We, of course, don’t worship three gods, but that’s what they said.
The African said “I like four women, and I don’t care which god. I want four women.” So they told him to say the shahada, and he did.
Then they told him he had to be circumcised in order to become a Muslim. He asked: “Do I really have to? I am a grown man.” They answered: “Yes, you have to, in order to get the monthly stipend, and you can marry four wives.”
The man agreed, and underwent the pains of circumcision despite his advanced age. They began to pay him the monthly stipend, and after a few months they cancelled the stipend. The man went and asked: “Where’s the money?” They told him: “Now you are deep in Islam, you don’t need the monthly stipend any more.”
He threatened: “I will abandon Islam.” They said: “If you leave Islam, we will carry out the apostasy punishment on you.” He asked what the it was, and they said: “We will chop off your head, and cut you into pieces. ” This African man began to mumble: “What a strange religion: when you go in they cut off a little piece of you, and when you go out, they cut you into little pieces.”
This is the punishment for apostasy that keeps people afraid. Even when they reach the truth, they’re afraid to express their opinion.
There are other factors, such as upbringing from a young age. Children are brainwashed that Islam is the truth, that Mohammad is the last prophet, that the Christians are infidels and that the Jews are infidels. They repeat it constantly. Since early childhood, he cannot think properly, because a certain way of thinking is forced on him.
In addition, the religion of Islam satisfies the human urges, just like our (African) friend who said he preferred four wives. “Two, three, four, or however many you can.” It satisfies the sexual urges and man’s desire for ownership. It goes hand in hand with human nature. It does not exalt human nature, but reduces itself to the level of human nature.
September 6, 2006 at 2:20 am
3/2/2005 Clip No. 623
Former Dean of Islamic Law at Qatar University ‘Abd Al-Hamid Al-Ansari: The Arab Intellectuals are More Oppressive Than the Governments
Former dean of Islamic law at Qatar University ‘Abd Al-Hamid Al-Ansari, was interviewed by Bahrain TV on March 2, 2005. The following are excerpts:
‘Abd Al-Hamid Al Ansari: Our satellite channels deserve the name “media of terrorism.” They spread among the youth ideas that might not be considered outright terrorism but spread extremism. Such extremism is the beginning of violence and fanaticism, and violence leads to terrorism. Fanaticism – extremism -violence – terrorism.
When you host key figures [on TV] – either religious personalities or extremist personalities of a specific ideology… Anyone who disagrees with them is considered a traitor or a collaborator. When one guest is a nationalist, the other is a traitor and collaborator. When one guest is a religious figure, the other is considered deviant, with false beliefs. Such a guest pours his wrath out on the West and on Western culture. He starts by saying: “Look what they are doing to the Muslims,” “The materialistic West,” “The permissive West,” “The US is the enemy of Islam and the Muslims.”
What do such expressions instill in the souls of the youth if not hatred? At the same time, he depicts the past as glamorous and glorious – “The beautiful Caliphate,” and so on. When a young man listens to such depictions and compares them to his own situation, with its many tragedies… Who does he blame? He blames others, not himself. He doesn’t assume responsibility for the situation.
Oppression of intellectuals by intellectuals is worse than oppression by governments. I’m afraid of intellectuals like myself, who push me to the sidelines and call me a traitor and an infidel, more than I’m afraid of the governments. Today the governments give room for freedom, and they are the ones that protect us now.
The civil society organizations, which are supposed to protect liberties and democracy, are the ones that oppress the intellectuals and accuse them of treason and of being at odds with them.
Look what the Jordanian unions are doing. They applaud Saddam and still feel sorrow for the fallen regime. The Arab Lawyers Association has compiled a team to defend Saddam, and they haven’t said a word about the mass graves.
After 50 years of enlightenment, education, and modernization, along comes someone like Bin Laden, like Saddam, like Al-Zawahiri, like [Sleiman] Abu Al-Gheith, someone like Al-Zarqawi… We need to act as Germany upon its defeat.
The German elite reexamined its culture and found that the entire German culture is full of poison. Its sources are full of poison.
September 6, 2006 at 2:28 am
8/27/2004 Clip No. 226
Friday Sermon on Qatar TV: With Some Women, Life is Impossible Unless You Carry a Rod
The following are excerpts from a Friday sermon aired live on Qatar TV on August 27:
We must know that [wife] beating is a punishment in Islamic religious law. No one should deny this because this was permitted by the Creator of Man, and because when you purchase an electric appliance or a car you get instructions – a catalogue, explaining how to use it. The Creator of Man has sent down this book [the Koran] in order to show Man which ways he must choose.
We shouldn’t be ashamed before the nations of the world who are still in their days of ignorance, to admit that these [beatings] are part of our religious law. We must remind the ignorant from among the Islamic Nation who followed the [West], that those [westerners] acknowledge the wondrous nature of this verse. There are three types of women with whom life is impossible without beatings.
In America six million women are beaten by their husbands every year. These are their own official statistics. 4000-6000 women die as a result of their husbands’ beatings. London police, every year, answer 100,000 phone calls and complaints of attacks against wives. In France, their slogan is, “Beat the wife morning, noon and night, and don’t ask her why – she knows the reason.” But they use their media to blow this out of proportion. They blow what is happening in the Muslim countries out of proportion. They bring a woman from South-Eastern Asia with a swollen face and present her on TV, claiming this was done by a Muslim who attacked his wife. They forget that Islam is a religion that forbids beating the face even of beasts. It is forbidden to beat even a donkey on its face.
The intelligent people in the [West] admit that a woman does not feel comfort and is not happy unless she’s under a man who commands, forbids, controls, and leads. This is the nature of people according to Allah’s creation. Allah has created woman, whether Muslim or infidel, so she is happy under a strong man who will protect her and lives with her. It is not surprising, then, that a French woman came before a judge in the land of false freedom and equality and said: “I don’t want this husband.” The judge asked her: “Why?” and she replied: “He didn’t lead me, didn’t oppress me, didn’t castigate me, didn’t talk to me violently, didn’t say: Don’t do this, do that.” The judge replied: “Don’t [his actions] support those who call for equality between man and woman?” The infidel woman answered, “No, no, I don’t want him to compete with me, I want a man who leads and rules me.”
This is the nature according to which Allah created people, but they contaminated and replaced it with licentiousness and evil. A woman there knows that she lost the battle, and was mislead in the worst way, and she became like gum that the husband chews and throws into the filthy garbage can.
[The Koran says:] “and beat them.” This verse is of a wondrous nature. There are three types of women with whom a man cannot live unless he carries a rod on his shoulder. The first type is a girl who was brought up this way. Her parents ask her to go to school and she doesn’t – they beat her. “Eat” – “I don’t want to” – they beat her. So she became accustomed to beatings, she was brought up that way. We pray Allah will help her husband later. He will only get along with her if he practices wife beating.
The second type is a woman who is condescending towards her husband and ignores him. With her, too, only a rod will help. The third type is a twisted woman who will not obey her husband unless he oppresses her, beats her, uses force against her, and overpowers her with his voice.
September 6, 2006 at 2:39 am
God Bless America! Mom ,Apple Pie,Freedom of Religion,Freedom of Speech ,Women Lib,Civil Rights ,Afirmative Action , and on and on and on, Sure we have our problems . We DON’T agree on everything , but we try to work toward the common good. We vote ,we debate ,we discuss,
we change ,hopefully for the better.
September 6, 2006 at 10:35 am
“WE will never forget! (And that’s a whole lot of bunches of WE!)”
By: Ed Evans
I sat in a movie theater watching “Schindler’s List,” asked myself, “why didn’t the Jews fight back?” Now I know why.
I sat in a movie theater, watching “Pearl Harbor” and asked myself, “Why weren’t we prepared?” Now I know why.
Civilized people cannot fathom, much less predict, the actions of evil people.
On September 11, dozens of capable airplane passengers allowed themselves to be overpowered by a handful of poorly armed terrorists because they did not comprehend the depth of hatred that motivated their captors.
On September 11, thousands of innocent people were murdered because too many Americans naively reject the reality that some nations are dedicated to the dominance of others. Many political pundits, pacifists and media personnel want us to forget the carnage. They say we must focus on the bravery of the rescuers and ignore the cowardice of the killers. They implore us to understand the motivation of the perpetrators.
Major television stations have announced they will assist the healing process by not replaying devastating footage of the planes crashing into the Twin Towers.
I will not be manipulated.
I will not pretend to understand.
I will not forget.
I will not forget the liberal media who abused freedom of the press to kick our country when it was vulnerable and hurting.
I will not forget that CBS anchor Dan Rather preceded President Bush’s address to the nation with the snide remark, “No matter how you feel about him, he is still our president.”
I will not forget that ABC TV anchor Peter Jennings questioned President Bush’s motives for not returning immediately to Washington, DC and commented, “We’re all pretty skeptical and cynical about Washington.”
And I will not forget that ABC’s Mark Halperin warned if reporters weren’t informed of every little detail of this war, they aren’t “likely — nor should they be expected — to show deference.”
I will not isolate myself from my fellow Americans by pretending an attack on the USS Cole in Yemen was not an attack on the United States of America.
I will not forget the Clinton administration equipped Islamic terrorists and their supporters with the world’s most sophisticated telecommunications equipment and encryption technology, thereby compromising America’s ability to trace terrorist radio, cell phone, land lines, faxes and modem communications.
I will not be appeased with pointless, quick retaliatory strikes like those perfected by the previous administration.
I will not be comforted by “feel-good, do nothing” regulations like the silly “Have your bags been under your control?” question at the airport. {This Q has been withdrawn.}
I will not be influenced by so called,”antiwar demonstrators” who exploit the right of expression to chant anti-American obscenities.
I will not forget the moral victory handed the North Vietnamese by American war protesters who reviled and spat upon the returning soldiers, airmen, sailors and Marines.
I will not be softened by the wishful thinking of pacifists who chose reassurance over reality. I will embrace the wise words of Prime Minister Tony Blair who told Labor Party conference, “They have no moral inhibition on the slaughter of the innocent. If they could have murdered not 7,000 but 70,000, does anyone doubt they would have done so and rejoiced in it?
There is no compromise possible with such people, no meeting of minds, no point of understanding with such terror. Just a choice: defeat it or be defeated by it. And defeat it we must!”
I will force myself to:
– hear the weeping
– feel the helplessness
– imagine the terror
– sense the panic
– smell the burning flesh
– experience the loss
– remember the hatred.
I sat in a movie theater, watching “Private Ryan” and asked myself, “Where did they find the courage?”
Now I know.
We have no choice. Living without liberty is not living.
— Ed Evans, MGySgt., USMC (Ret.)
Not as lean, Not as mean, But still a Marine.
(Keep this going until every living American has read it and memorized it so we don’t make the same mistake again.)
September 6, 2006 at 10:40 am
SEMPER FI, Ed. SEMPER FI!
September 6, 2006 at 10:56 am
Big Jake Wow. Had a good buddy over last night and we talked for hours. He’s a christian and answered a lot of my questions. He showed me verses in the bible. He told me the bible was several books combined into one book and they’re all in sync. He called the bible God’s love letter to humanity and an instruction book on living successfully. We’re going to get together again so we can talk some more.
After reading all of your last posts, I don’t know how anyone unless you were brainwashed would want anything to do with Islam. It sounds like they turn you into a prisoner. They take away your ability to think for yourself. It’s nothing like christianity at all.
They don’t have any respect for women, that’s for sure. I wouldn’t want ownership of a women. How is that fulfilling? I want her to want to be with me on her own. That’s the real high. I don’t want to have to beat her into submission. My wife did all kinds of things for me, but she did it because she loved me. I did things for her, too. What man in their right mind would enjoy beating the woman you love? The mother of your kids. How could you even make love to her after that? I would think she’d hate your guts. I believe women like strong men that they know will protect and provide for the family, but I think they want a man they can look up to and feel safe with. Not some jerk that hits them to keep them in line. I think if you love her and treat her right, she’ll just automatically take care of you back. I would think that the goal would be to have peace and harmony in the home so you can enjoy each other. I used to look forward to coming home. The house was always nice, she always fixed good food, she’d kiss me as soon as I walked threw the door. I don’t get this Islamic way of living. Doesn’t sound appealing to me at all.
By the way, you asked me if I like the Mets. Do you? I’m thinking it could quite possibly be a Mets and Yankees series this year. Who will you be rooting for if it is?
Americanwomen, thanks for sharing your encounters. I don’t know what to think of that, but I’ll say you’re pretty gutsy. Supernatural things like that give me the creeps.
September 6, 2006 at 11:39 am
Zealot, I agree that men shouldn’t hit women. However, some women aren’t sweet, loving, sex kittens. Some are whiney, nasty, lazy, selfish, bitches that are never happy no matter what you do and they will come after you. I know. I had a women that used to bitch, scratch and dig me everytime she had a bug up her ass. I told her several times to knock it off. She only quit when I finally had enough and laid her out.
Yes, we’re divorced. Thank God. Islam is the only religion when you have a shrew like that in the house.
September 6, 2006 at 8:20 pm
Niceguy, I know what you mean. But, didn’t you have signs before you married this girl that she was like that? I mean, it just seems that you would have some indication how she reacts to things before you make a commitment. I posted earlier that I dated a girl for awhile after my wife died and it didn’t work out. Let me just say first, that she’s a really nice girl. She just was insecure and wanted me to stop doing things that I enjoyed doing. She was always putting me through a drill if I didn’t call her on time, or if I stopped someplace on the way home. I knew I couldn’t handle that forever. Anyway, I know what you mean. I was just lucky.
Big Jake, have to be honest with you. I’m not really in to baseball. I like the series, mostly because I get into pools, but I like football. And my team is the Buffalo Bills. I know, I know, say what you want. I’m orginally from a little town south of Buffalo right on the PA border. Someday the Bills will win that Super Bowl and you’ll hear me hollering where ever you are.
September 6, 2006 at 8:37 pm
“Had a good buddy over last night and we talked for hours.”
How beautiful these words are; how precious such a time.
ref. Zealot Says: #314
September 6, 2006 at 9:27 pm
Zealot – the Bills have come close to taking the SB. Maybe this will be their year! I’ve been a skins fan since living in the DC area in high school. I actually met Mike Thomas and had a coca-cola with him and a few other people the year or two after he took “Rookie of the Year.” It was so exciting! My dad is career Army and we were stationed in Carlisle, PA where the skins had summer training. I talked a friend into going to watch them practice. Long story short, Mike and a couple of guys invited us out to a local pizza place for a soda. They were complete gentlemen. My friend and I were high school seniors, and I know it’s hard for some on this site to believe, but Mike and his buddies weren’t in to using young girls. We had a coke, talked football, family, and high school and went our separate ways. The skins have had good times and bad. This year isn’t looking too hot so far, but hey, there’s always hope! My dad is from Erie, PA. I hope you aren’t near that creep who shot the state troopers!
Niceguy – I know there are people who live to make life for others a miserable ride. From a woman’s standpoint, I just can’t imagine a guy hitting me and I don’t think I’d ever be able to get over it. I know women harp on communication and negotioation but I think they are key to any successful relationship. Some people (women and men) want it their way or no way. I couldn’t live like that. I think you have to find someone who you have enough in common with and where there’s enough love for the other person that each person is willing to compromise and forgive the other person’s faults. It’s not always an easy ride. I just wish the genders would stop looking at each other as something to be dominated. This is the naive part of my personality showing … but men and women are different (thank heavens!). I worked in a well-paid career for 18 years. I had to hang with the tough guys without being manly. I don’t wanna be a guy. I want a strong guy (and have one) to take care of me and the kids but I want to be respected for what I bring to the family. I love to do the decorating, cooking, and housekeeping stuff and I love yard work, too. That doesn’t mean there aren’t days when I feel fed up and want my husband to say, “what do you want me to order for take out, babe?” It’s not easy being at home with the kids all day. I know it’s not easy being at work all day, too. That’s the thing … both people need to stop comparing, compromise a little, and be thankful for the person they’re with who help tough life out.
Big Jake, as always, more knowledge and on point with you. I talked to a couple of my women friends today and discussed your discourse on the Quran. It scared them but I noticed the subject was quickly changed. Women want to pretend we won’t see our freedoms erased … yeah, I guess we’ll expect our guys to put their lives on the line for us. I’m not gonna let it drop.
September 6, 2006 at 10:10 pm
Americanwoman, actually, I am near that creep. I told you I’m a NYorker. I was born and raised in a little NY town south of Buffalo. I live in Pa in a bordertown right on the state line, about 90 miles south of Buffalo. I love Buffalo and go there a lot. And I’m not too far from Erie. I go to Bemus Point occassionally. Anyway, there are roadblocks all over the place. Troopers at all the checkpoints have rifles and they have their guns drawn when they check the vehickles. I hope they catch the guy. It’s a shame how he took the life of a decent man.
September 6, 2006 at 11:21 pm
I read that having the kids going back to school this week has really complicated the search. I can see a guy like that take some little kid hostage. Does NY have the death penalty? I hope so. I feel so badly for Trooper Longobardo and his family. The guy was only 32! It sounds like the trooper who was shot in the back has a long road to recovery ahead of him. Let’s hope the good guys win on this one.
September 7, 2006 at 4:10 am
ZEALOT ,I’ve always been a Met fan . Grew up in
September 7, 2006 at 4:23 am
Sorry about that ,folks. Like I was saying ,I grew up in Queens . The 1969 World Series ,Ron Swoboda’s amazing catch. How could I not be a Met fan?
I asked you if you were a Met fan in Post #302 in reference to the movie “Frequency” . (You really have to see it). Frank Sullivan and his son are die hard Met fans in 1969.
As far as football goes , sorry , my allegience is Jets ,Giants a very distant 2nd .
September 7, 2006 at 5:00 am
post #304 DJ, Thanks for the compliment . I was just speaking from the heart.You guys and gals are like family to me.
Post #315 niceguy I don’t believe you condone hitting women. The situation you were in became unbearable. You reacted on a bad day to an unseemly provocation.
My guess is that you are not proud of the outcome. In fact,I venture to say that you are ashamed of losing control of yourself and you are throwing it out for discussion because it bothers you that it came to that.
If you really felt that it was ok to hit a woman if she “asks for it” then it would be an everyday occurrence for you and you would have a problem .
By being man enough to realize you were in a bad situation you did the mature thing and ended it. The selfish and immature solution would be to perpetuate the problem by staying in the marriage not seeking counseling, and knocking each other silly for the rest of your lives.
September 7, 2006 at 7:38 am
Big Jake, like I said before, you’re a smart guy. Please explain to me what you think post 317 is trying to tell me. We’re good buddies. JUST good buddies. That’s it. The beautiful and precious time thing? I hope the guy means well because it sounds queer to me. I’m definitely not queer. And let’s please everyone, not start a debate on this issue because, well, just because.
Lke the Jets, Like the Giants, Love the Bills, with the Steelers being a close 2nd. (If Norwood would’ve made that field goal in the first SB the Bills were in, the Giants wouldn’t have won…what a game. I was ticked!!)
For some reason I can’t sleep tonight. Went back and re-read a lot of the comments and your 312 post I read several times. I printed it off so I will always have it. With 9-11 just a few days away we should honor and never forget what our country went through that day. Our country has the greatest military in the world, but what our enemies seem to forget is that there are millions of us, without uniforms, right here, that are ready to fight and protect our way of life. Everytime I see re-plays of the towers getting hit, I get a fury inside me that only a true American can feel. I know I will NEVER FORGET. And that nut in Iran is messing with the wrong people. Time will tell.
Good night. I’m going to see if I can rent Frequency this weekend.
September 7, 2006 at 10:16 am
P.S. Big Jake, don’t remember Ron Swoboda’s catch you were talking about. I was born that year. 🙂
September 7, 2006 at 12:17 pm
Zealot re post #317 I took it at face value. I think you are reading too much into it. You must have had a rough day! Your reaction gave me a chuckle.
It brought back memories of my first summertime job at Kodak. I had a summer job sorting film orders ,packing and loading trucks while I was in high school. As I was the new kid , the loading dock crew decided to have some fun with me. They got together and made like they were all gay and if I was going to work there I had to go through some kind of “initiation”. OMG! What were they going to do with me,to me? HELP!! Boy did they have a laugh at my reaction . I was so jumpy ,I knocked over a few cartons of film. When I finally realized they were all in on it and were pulling my leg, I couldn’t stop laughing out of relief along
with them. It was one of the best summers of my life. Moral of the story? ,chill out!
Seriously though , I have to thank you forhelping me get back in the race.
“Getting there is like running a marathon. You have good stretches and bad. You get winded and fall. But then you get up and get back in the race.
In this marathon, you also have to help your fellow runners finish”.
I have been reflecting more on the important things and renewing my relationship with God . Funny though ,He is always there for us. It is like when a little kid trys to assert his independence from his parent . He tries to go it alone for a while and finds that he needs that parental reassurance to go on. Thanks for helping me get back on track . I’ve been talking more with the “Big Guy” and it feels great.
By the way, I’m not so smart, I’m just older than you . I’ve had a little more to deal with.
I was born in 1954, married to the same beautiful woman for 27 years ,4 great kids and a bunch of challenges I won’t get into right now.
I’m glad you are going to rent “Frequency”. I’d love to discuss it with you. And don’t forget “Field of Dreams”.
I am going to throw this one out there- “Quantum Physics”.
If you don’t know what it is ,look it up on the net. Both these movies deal with it. Man has been groping around with it for all of recorded history. The big “What if?”
September 7, 2006 at 7:34 pm
Guys, I feel really weird being the only woman here lately. I wish Viber and Red Dawn would check back in … for that matter, I’d like to hear from Vera. I wish Eagle would also come back in, because like Big Jake, Zealot, and DJ (I apologize to those not listed), it’s really nice to hear from Americans who cherish what we have.
Zealot – I have to say that I did do a double take on Richard’s response to you. (Although I have to say, I can tend to read a little too much into things at times!) I have no problem with gays/lesbians. I’ve worked side by side with some and I am convinced that most are genitically inclined and are good, law abiding people. However, as a straight female, I would not want to be “hit” on by another female and can understand straight guys feeling the same way. (Big Jake, I know the Bible probably disagrees with me on the homosexuality issue.) Guys, I absolutely need time with my girlfriends and I think you need the same with your male friends. There is nothing sexual about it. It’s healthy to be able to relax, talk, and be oneself without worrying about what a member of the opposite sex thinks of you. It doesn’t mean you want to sleep with that person. Give me a break! When I get together with my girlfriends and we talk about how sick we are of cleaning up after the kids and husband, the conversation always (and I mean always) turns to how thankful we are to have our kids and a husband who comes home every night, gives us a kiss, and plays with the kids. It took me a few years to come to terms with the fact that my husband doesn’t wipe the counters down like I think they need to be wiped down. Know what? I don’t check the pressure in the tires like he does. I think part of becoming an adult is accepting the other gender for what they have to offer. Don’t take that to mean I want my husband to yell at me or hit me, because I don’t. I also wouldn’t want to do anything that makes that happen.
Headlines today – looks like Americans are spending big bucks to protect Iranian diplomats to come “talk” to us. Let’s save a bunch of tax dollars by telling the UN to find somewhere else to practice. If Ahmadinejad comes here … how about mass demonstrations protesting his presence. I have to say if someone shoots him, I won’t lose a second’s sleep.
September 7, 2006 at 8:35 pm
Hi everyone – I just got off the phone with my 19 year old son who is at FT Bragg. He’ll be making his first jump out of an airplane on 9-11. He says it is the highest honor to be making the jump on that date. (This from a boy who gave me a run for my money when his dad was in Afghanistan!) I have to say that I am so proud of him, but as a mom who remembers him being an infant and toddler, I am also so worried for him and all of our children! I HATE terrorists! I thank God for American men who put their lives on the line for their families! That means you Big Jake, Zealot, Eagle, DJ, Niceguy and everyone you’ve worked with! We may not always agree on the nitty gritty, but we are united as Americans who cherish our freedoms and know that Freedom is not Free.
September 7, 2006 at 9:03 pm
Americanwoman, it’s been a long time since I’ve written in, but I have checked in every couple of days to read what you’re all talking about. Like DJ said, with Big Jake he says everything so well and has so many facts it’s hard to find anything to add. I was also leary about being attacked by that “curious” fellow. He could be monitoring, but he’s not saying anything so hopefully he doesn’t jump in now. He certainly adds to new meaning to the word asshole. So, take that if your monitoring. I’m a woman and I don’t swear a lot, but sometimes those are the only words that really get across.
Congratulations on your wonderful son and his jump. I don’t have any kids. Maybe someday. If I do, I hope I raise them well and they’re not afraid to stand up for what’s right.
Big Jake, I printed off #312, too. That was great. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I hate, HATE the thought of Ahmadjinehad coming to our country, and at OUR EXPENSE??? Who thinks that’s a good idea? I’m shocked.
And, as far as Zealot goes, there’s no way that man is gay. You wrote one time that I need to get a boyfriend. Well honey, how about YOU?? I have to tell you, I even let some of my girlfriends read your posts, and you make our knees weak. You’re our new hearthrob. You come across like a really hot, sexy, guy. Don’t let Richard (317) put you off. WE KNOW BETTER.
September 7, 2006 at 9:08 pm
Zealot, I’d set my house on fire if I thought you come to put it out.
September 8, 2006 at 1:22 am
Big Jake. #326 I hope I’m not reading too much into it. Guys just don’t ordinarily talk like that. None that I know anyway. I’ve never considered my time with the guys beautiful and precious. Those two words just never come to mind when I’m with guys. I enjoyed your story. That sounds like something the guys I work with would do.
It makes me feel proud that you’re thanking me for you deciding to get back in the race. You’re a stand up guy, and I have a lot of respect for what you know and how you deliver it. So, you were born in 1954? You’re not that much older than me. I’ll consider you the older brother I never had, if you don’t mind. I am anxious to see Frequency so I know what you’re talking about.
Americanwoman #327 You are fortunate to have such great men around you. A soldier for a husband, and a soldier for a son. Like father, like son they say. I know you’re proud. I would be, too. Tell you’re son we’re rooting for him.
And now, lovesamerica. I’ve never been hit on via the internet before and to be honest it doesn’t do a hell of a lot for me. Maybe that’s because I’m not a pervert. I don’t know what you’re reading that makes your knees weak, but I’m just an ordinary guy. I did like being called hot, and I did like being called sexy, so thanks. You definitely have a fire that needs put out, so I hope you have someone on deck that can help you out.
September 8, 2006 at 2:24 am
lovesamerica: You almost got me fired today.
I was sneaking a peak at the blog when I read
your posts 329 and 330.
“Zealot, I’d set my house on fire if I thought you come to put it out.”
I COULDN’T STOP LAUGHING ! Where did that come from? The people I work with think there is something really wrong with me. I told them it was a form of Touretts Syndrome . Instead of making strange noises, I suffer from fits of uncontrollable laughter. My buddy Al is now calling me “Tomato Face”. Thanks.
Oh ,by the way , arn’t you concerned about ruffling Eagles’ Feathers?
#201 zealot: “and you have women falling all over Eagle like he’s some 6′2″ pretty boy they’re hoping to snag, when in reality, he’s probably some balding, pencil neck with thick glasses,”
OK Little Brother ,now you have the girls falling all over you!
Zealot , you honor me by thinking of me as an older brother. I have two sons. Joe is 22 and Louie is 15 . Joe teases Louie unmercifully.
Comes with the territory.- a lot of love there.
Americanwoman -FT. Brag jump school- your son must be in the 82ND OR 101ST ,tough outfits. YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND MUST BE SO PROUD OF HIM! May God keep him safe .
September 8, 2006 at 11:35 am
Big Jake, I’m glad you got some humor out of my post. I really wouldn’t set my house on fire. I don’t even own a house, but I’d love to meet a guy like Zealot.
Zealot, you wonder what makes our knees weak? I’ll tell you.
You’re a fireman. I don’t know what it is about policemen, firemen, and sorry Americanwoman, even soldiers, that there awfully appealing. Maybe it’s that you have to have a certain character to do such dangerous jobs, or maybe it’s the uniform. I don’t know what it is, but it’s a turn on. You avenged your sister. That in itself is a real turn on. Every woman likes to know a man will fight for her. You even admitted you had a tender side. It shows you’re sensitive, and probably pretty romantic when you want to be. You like to talk. So you would be a friend to the woman you loved. Women like to talk and they love sensitive guys. One of the men I work with is a volunteer firemen, and he told us once that the physical side to the firemen’s test is pretty grueling. That tells us that since you’re still a fairly young man, you’re probably in pretty good shape. You obviously would never hit a woman or even intentionally mistreat her and just the way you talk about your wife makes me think she was pretty lucky. Every woman wants to be cherished. Every woman wants to be cared for the way you cared about her. And since you avenged your sister, you probably would’ve gone ballistic if anyone ever hurt your wife. You said you cried after 9-11 when your son ran to you. Again, very sensitive. Very appealing.
I’m only 23 years old and I’m really not hitting on you. It just seems like all I ever meet are jerks. I’m a nice girl and I don’t hit and scratch men or demand my own way. You just sound like my dream man. I’m not a pervert, either. I like to have fun and kid around. I really do hope you find a woman that you can love and will satisfy you the way your first wife did. I just wish it were me.
September 8, 2006 at 12:30 pm
lovesamerica : you are alot like my wife. You’ve got it all together just like she did at 23. That’s when we got married .That was 27 years ago. Make sure you wait for the right guy . You deserve the best.
September 8, 2006 at 12:50 pm
Zealot:
Little brother, re post #333 Lovesamerica said it perfectly . You have alot to offer the right woman.
I’m going to add another movie to your list
“Always “with Richard Dreyfus.
September 8, 2006 at 1:19 pm
#333 – Lovesamerica, you said it perfectly. I lived in Lawton OK, home of FT Sill, when I met my husband. I knew I’d probably marry a guy in the service, becuase most of them are pretty exceptional … not that there aren’t other great guys out there as well, but I was born into the military and wasn’t afraid of the moving around. I don’t know if you and your friends live near a military post, but if you do, there are always functions on post for single soldiers and they’re always looking for women to attend them. Lots of posts/bases will have concerts that are open to the public. Call the MWR (Morale, Welfare, and Recreation) office on post and ask them if there are any events that you and your friends can attend to meet single soldiers. I was a waitress at Chi-Chi’s after I got out of college and couldn’t get a decent job. It was a great way to meet single soldiers who would come out for dinner. It enabled me to get a handle on their personality before going on a date, too. Just a use a little caution, because while most of the guys are really great guys, there are a few who are not nice people. I bet Zealot has some advice on how you can meet firemen (without doing something drastic like setting a fire – I got a laugh out of that, too!).
#332 – Big Jake, my son joined the RI National Guard because they have a Special Forces component. He went to selection and made it through that, so he’s at Jump School now. My husband corrected me … he’s at FT Benning, not Bragg. He’ll be going to Special Forces Training sometime in November and he’s planning to go full-time with Special Forces. We really are proud of him although I do worry about him.
September 8, 2006 at 1:19 pm
I don’t remember if anyone has pointed this fact out, but have the homosexuals considered how they will fare in an Islamic society? Have they monitored the fate of their “brethren” in those countries.
And, Yes, I hope the liberal professors are paying attention to the “cleansing” in the Iranian universities. Alas, probably, No. Their brain cells not corrupted by LSD, ‘shrooms, and other recreational drugs are occupied by their short-sighted, “we’re all citizens of the world,” touchy-feely, the conservatives are the one to blame, nonsense.
Anyone, besides me, remember the “Far Side” cartoon by Gary Trudeau that showed a father and son looking over the fence at the next residence that had wolves in and around the house? The caption read something to the affect of, “Yes, Timmy, I miss the Wilkersons, too. But they were stupid people. But, that’s why we have wolves and other large predators.” Being a biologist, that cartoon says volumes to me.
I’m one of the unique scientists that has balanced religion with science knowledge. My acceptance of science fact, theory, and possibilites is strengthened by the recognition of God’s hand in nature in general. If it can’t be explained by science, why not attribute it to Him (or Her). And I thank God every day for giving me the right and the intelligence to make decisions on my own. I’ve noticed that most of the folks that flock to Islam are simple minded (and I don’t mean that in a negative context) that need the strong control of this religion to keep their human nature in control. But not by much.
Note Big Jake’s article(s) about how the middle-east is basically a patriarchal society. Have you ever NOTICED a muslim family in public? One instance of a family on an airplane comes to mind. I was disgusted. The father was seated forward in the cabin WITH HIS SONS, while his wife sat to the rear of the cabin WITH THE DAUGHTERS. What did he do with most of his time during the flight? He read an airline magazine. No, not unusual, but what caught my eye was that he kept flipping back to a one page add of a gorgeous, blonde model. Yeah, a real pious, faithful muslim!
Second point, note that …(infidels and) apostates property and women are for all to take.” How many times have we heard the stories about the rapes and killings of the women in the areas that they attack that have opposing views to theirs? And they say that they respect women?
Seems to me that the sexual violence that is allowed during the spread Islam is a “vent” of the basic human behavior that most western countries have grown out of. Unlike us, the mullahs and imams have recognized the ways to dominate, control, and “guide” their mindless minions on the path to world domination.
This war is not neccessarily religious in nature, it is one of control of wealth. Ask anyone and they will recount stories of fat-cat priors, monks, priests, bishops, imams, mullahs, rabbis, etc. I, personally, have noticed that Nasrallah, Al Sadr, and other prominent muslims “leaders” appear to not have missed any meals. Yes, without the tithe money from their “flocks” they cannot continue to live in the style to which they’ve become accustomed. Oh, Allah forbid, that their congregations spend it on books, education, internet access, and (gasp!) knowledge that there is more out there than heat, sand, goats, camels, and manure. Oh, the woe, that their people might uncover their eyes and learn that the “way” shoved down their throats since they were able to listen IS NOT the ONLY way to live!
Yes, I am very disconcerted that the average American cannot see the danger of the “large predators” that are getting very near our doors. The women in conversations that quickly change the topic when something as serious as this is brought up.
Yep, we’ve got a tough row to hoe ahead of us. And if I’ve got to be one of the stubborn mules to plow the fields to sow freedom, then hitch me up. I’m rarin’ to go.
September 8, 2006 at 1:52 pm
DJ – Thanks so much for saying what you said and saying it so well! My husband and I were driving back from visiting family in Williamsburg, VA, and we stopped in Crown Point, NY, to fill up and get snacks for the kids. The place was owned by an Afghan man and his elderly dad. His dad just glared at me and my daughters (probably because we were wearing shorts and short sleeved tops and had the audacity to stand next to my husband instead of behind him). My husband talked about Afghanistan with the son for a couple minutes. When we got back to the car, I mentioned the dad glaring at me and the girls and my husband said, yeah, they want to keep you all covered up because they “respect” you so much and in the meantime sell porn magazines in their stores. I hadn’t noticed all the magazines at the front counter.
I don’t know how homosexuals will fare under Islam. I don’t think many people realize how rampant homosexual-like behavior is in Afghanistan. Apparently, because it costs so much for a wife and men are not highly paid, a man can be 35 or older before he can buy a wife. They can’t have sex with a woman they aren’t married to, so it’s fairly common to see older men forcing young men to take care of those needs. It’s just sick.
September 8, 2006 at 6:43 pm
Re: American Woman # 338. BINGO! It’s all about the USE of women. Very rarely do you read about a muslim man speaking about his love for his wife. Mostly it’s about his MALE children, perhaps his daughter(s), and rarely about his wife. You mostly hear negative things, i.e. backtalk, showing hair from under a scarf, speaking her mind, etc.
I’m sorry, but they will have to do a lot of convincing to get me to believe that they consider women for anything other than breeding children and being a receptor for their carnal urges. In my humble opinion they are just above the club and dragging the woman by the hair to their cave. Now the women are brainwashed to believe that it is Allah’s will that they be treated as such. If they only knew the freedom they could have there might be more “Lorena Bobbitt” moments in the middle east.
But that’s why the imams and mullahs keep such a death grip on the media. You don’t miss what you’ve never experienced. You don’t rebel if you have nothing with which to compare your present situation. We need to increase our Radio Free “U-pick-a-stan” programs and lambast the islamic lies over the airwaves, jam the “Al Jeer-at-ya” and equivalents’ signals to stop the propaganda, and start a massive leaflet drop of information on the regimes. Give the mindless minions something to think about, something to compare the lies to, tell them the truth. What a concept.
September 8, 2006 at 7:16 pm
Big Jake, yeah, #201, I remember writing that. I wonder if she’ll feel the same way when she learns I’m the pencil neck. I could never meet her because I doubt I’d live up to her expectations. When reality and fantasy collide, it’s pretty messy.
I had to chuckle about the “turn on” for avenging my sister, though. My wife sure didn’t find it that way. To say she raised the roof is an understatement. We had just found out about two weeks prior to me doing that, that she was pregnant. If he would’ve pressed charges, I would have lost my job and probably done some jail time myself. I knew that, and that’s why I threatened him. It was just a real stupid thing to do. It felt good doing it, but I should’ve been smarter and paid more attention to what could happen and how it would affect my family if I got caught. My wife gave me the dagger stare for days. Once she felt comfortable that nothing was going to happen she forgave me, but for about two weeks, I paid dearly. Turned on, that’s a laugh. I was afraid to go near her.
Lovesamerica, if you want to find a firefighter, I suggest you go to NYC. They have 5 boroughs to take care of and thousands of firefighters. The NYFD is now taking applications, or will be soon, and there will be plenty of guys around your age that will be applying. If I was a resident I’d probably apply myself. They have the toughest training in the country and I’m sure you’ll find what you’re looking for. Firefighters are a great group of guys. We’re a brotherhood and look out for each other. Our motto “No man left behind”. Great, great guys.
Just remember something, some men may not wear the uniform, but the majority of men are all firemen, policemen, and soldiers at heart. What you’re looking for could be right in front of you.
DJ & Americanwoman, the more I read about Islam and their lame religion, the more I don’t understand how this religion ever got started. The homo stuff. They have to save to buy a wife and until they do they do each other. These guys sound pretty sad. They need to get a backbone and forget that shit.
September 8, 2006 at 9:12 pm
Zealot, I really laugh when I read some of your posts because you remind me of my husband. You two could be brothers, I swear! (And all of you great guys – Big Jake, Eagle, DJ, Zealot – remind me of my big brother. He was just such a decent man who did everything he could to take care of his family, be a great son, and brother!)
Just before my husband and I got married, I was in Concord visiting him and my future in-laws and the two of us went to a movie. This drunk guy walks up and tries to cheat the line. He gets really belligerent with a couple people in line and I glanced at my husband and recognized the “I’m about to pound this jerk” signs. My husband said something to the guy and the guy came towards him ready for trouble. I knew my husband could and would take the guy down, but I always worry about concealed weapons, so I kept saying quietly, “He’s drunk, ignore him, look the other way … yadda, yadda, yadda.” They got into a slight tussle and the guy took off. I was so mad at my husband over it though because he had potentially put his life in jeopardy for that drunk jerk. I can totally understand where Caroline was coming from, but I know deep down she also expected you to stand up for your sister and respected you for it. It’s a bit schizophrenic of us women and I know it’s one of the things about us that drives you guys nuts.
September 8, 2006 at 9:50 pm
Big Jake, I’m still laughing over the picture in my mind of you telling your co-workers you have Tourette’s. I love the American sense of humor! You guys are too funny.
September 9, 2006 at 1:42 am
Americanwoman:
I personally think not being able to control my laughter ,sitting there beet red and gasping for breath, and my buddy Al exploiting the whole thing(I’m surprised he didn’t sell tickets!)makes a much funnier mental picture.
September 9, 2006 at 3:32 am
DJ #337 Kudos again my friend , an excellent
observation .
” How many times have we heard the stories about the rapes and killings of the women in the areas that they attack that have opposing views to theirs? And they say that they respect women?
Seems to me that the sexual violence that is allowed during the spread Islam is a “vent” of the basic human behavior that most western countries have grown out of.”
This has been done throughout their history
as an effective tool to asert their dominance and to cow the conquered peoples into submission. Two such events come to mind the fall of Constantinople in 1453 and the fall of Khatoum to the Madhi
The Fall of Constantinople
The Emperor and his commanders were trying frantically to rally their troops and push back the enemy. It was too late. Waves of Janissaries, followed by other regular units of the Ottoman army, were crashing throught the open Gates, mixed with fleeing and slaughtered Christian soldiers. Then the Emperor, realizing that everything was lost, removed his Imperial insignia, and followed by his cousin Theophilus Palaeologus, the Castilian Don Francisco of Toledo, and John Dalmatus, all four holding their swords, charged into the sea of the enemy soldiers, hitting left and right in a final act of defiance. They were never seen again.
Now thousands of Ottoman soldiers were pouring into the city. One after the other the city Gates were opened. The Ottoman flags began appearing on the walls, on the towers, on the Palace at Blachernae. Civilians in panic were rushing to the churches. Others locked themselves in their homes, some continued fighting in the streets, crowds of Greeks and foreigners were rushing towards the port area. The allied ships were still there and began collecting refugees. The Cretan soldiers and sailors, manning three towers near the entrance of the Golden Horn, were still fighting and had no intention of surrendering. At the end, the Ottoman commanders had to agree to a truce and let them sail away, carrying their arms.
The excesses which followed, druing the early hours of the Ottoman victory, are described in detail by eyewitnesses. They were, and unfortunately still are, a common practice, almost a ritual, among all armies capturing enemy strongholds and territory after a prolonged and violent struggle. Thus, bands of soldiers began now looting. Doors were broken, private homes were looted, their tenants were massacred. Shops in the city markets were looted. Monasteries and Convents were broken in. Their tenants were killed, nuns were raped, many, to avoid dishonor, killed themselves. Killing, raping, looting, burning, enslaving, went on and on according to tradition. The troops had to satisfy themselves. The great doors of Saint Sophia were forced open, and crowds of angry soldiers came in and fell upon the unfortunate worshippers. Pillaging and killing in the holy place went on for hours. Similar was the fate of worshippers in most churches in the city. Everything that could be taken from the splendid buildings was taken by the new masters of the Imperial capital. Icons were destroyed, precious manuscripts were lost forever. Thousands of civilians were enslaved, soldiers fought over young boys and young women. Death and enslavement did not distinguish among social classes. Nobles and peasants were treated with equal ruthlessness.
September 9, 2006 at 11:15 am
Big Jake, where do you find all this information? Do you search it out on the internet, or is it in books & magazines you read? These people sound like animals. I’ve never been in the military, but if I was and I was under orders to take a city, I can’t see myself willingly participating in these activities. I would hope that I’m more civilized, or have a conscience? Part of this says the troops had to satisfy themselves. I can’t see the satisfaction about any of it.
I’ll be gone for a few days. A friend of mine asked me to take her to Niagra Falls. She’s new to the area and has never been there. I’ll take my laptop and check in if I can. Doubt if I will, but if I’m able to, I will.
Have a great weekend everyone.
September 9, 2006 at 12:36 pm
ZEALOT:
I have always been a history buff . I am a CPA and a Tax Manager by trade. I do Tax research on the internet. Those skills are readily transferable to general internet research,sooooo.. all I do is apply my history knowlege to my research skills and you see what I am able to pull up.
Getting back to my last post, that kind of behavior ,beleive it or not was common to warfare in general on both sides of the Islamic -Christian struggle commonly known to us as the Crusades.
We hear alot about how the Christians behaved .We never hear about how the Moslems behaved and I went to Catholic elementary and high school.
They are still calling us “Crusaders” as if it was a derogatory term. Guess what they teach the kids in the Madras’s about the Crusades?
That result is the cause of the problems we have today.
We are constantly doing a “Mea Culpa” over what happened over 500 years ago. Look at how President Bush had to backtrack over his use of the term Crusade and all the flak he took from the Liberal media. They ,the Islamists”, don’t do that because it is their belief system. When was the last time you heard an Islamist do a “Mea Culpa”? You haven’t heard it in the Liberal press. I found instances of honest Muslims doing a self examination of their society ON THEIR MEDIA and have posted it previously.
Remember ,they were the agressors here. The entire Middle East and North Africa was Christian in 600AD .
We are demonized over the introduction of Christianity to the New World and what we did to the indigenous population ,the Indians.
The Aztecs were peforming Human sacrifices. There are still tribes in the Amazon that practice cannibalism. We’re not the bad guys here either,at least not as bad as we are made out to be.
If Columbus was such a monster , why then do the Hispanic Americans celebrate Columbus Day ?
Hispanic Americans are among the most devout Christians in the world.
Well ,that’s all for now. Have a great time at the Falls, Little Brother!
September 9, 2006 at 12:48 pm
Big Jake – I agree with Zealot. Are you a history major? Anyway, it makes for some great reading, even if it is depressing. My husband reads tons of stuff about the countries he’s likely to find himself in these days and he knows US history like the back of his hand. I’ve done a little reading about the Roman Empire (beyond what I did in high school) and worry about some of the similarities between the downfall of the Empire and some of what we’re seeing in America today.
Zealot, I’ve been part of the military from birth. While we’re no different than any other segment of society where there are some bad “nickles” as a good friend used to put it, the vast number of American troops are decent people and would never do such vile things. My husband and dad would never do anything like that … even if they thought they could get away with it. Also, glad to hear they caught Phillips.
September 9, 2006 at 2:24 pm
My, my, my. Zealot, hope you have a great weekend. It would be a shame for you to drive all the way up to the Falls for nothing. I mean gas, meals, hotel. Good luck. I hope you get a lot of ass. From the sounds of it, you can get plenty if you want it. Even the queers like you. All this bonding between you and Big Jake. And it all started after I revealed his true identity. What…does he give you free samples or something? I thought you really were the pencil neck from all the sucking, but after I found out DJ was the biologist, well, you know biologists, thick glasses, bald, he just fits that description all too well.
lovesamerica, why would you be afraid I would attack you? I don’t attack horny girls. I don’t have to. They know their position, and it’s usually on their back. Unless you’re real lucky and get a kinky one. How about I put on a firemen’s hat and throw one into you? You’d like it. See, I like to be helpful. I’m right here on deck, honey. Or should I say horny?
Americanwoman, I would like to thank you for giving lovesamerica the slut route to finding a man. You seem to be an expert in that area. You even solicited Zealot into helping out. Good girl. But,I’m convinced Zealot probably has all he can handle with women falling at his feet and having Big Jake in the background watching and humping whatever is close by. The dog, the cat, Al, tax forms.
I hope I have the same weekend Zealot is in for. I hope he has a real hot one.
September 9, 2006 at 3:31 pm
Curious:
Boy are you a sicko.
Get some help.
Please, GET SOME HELP!
September 9, 2006 at 5:11 pm
Curious, I see you’re back again. I told you I wouldn’t read your posts, so I didn’t and won’t. I did see Big Jake’s reply to you so it’s no surprise to see your full of the same hate and contempt for us. Go someplace else!
September 9, 2006 at 11:50 pm
Regarding Curious:
He’s a fountain of misplaced rage. Name your cliche; Mother held him too much or not enough, last picked at kickball, late night sneaky uncle, whatever. Now he’s so angry that moments of levity actually cause him pain; give him headaches. Happiness, for that gentleman, hurts.
September 10, 2006 at 12:28 am
Big Jake, Americanwoman, lovesamerica, Zealot:
I just did it for laughs.
Sorry.
September 10, 2006 at 1:37 pm
Just got up and out of the shower. Thought I’d check the website on my laptop….lo and behold…he’s back.
Curious: When I first read your input I went from zero to ninety in about 2 seconds. I even fantasized about slamming you up against a wall, but after thinking about it, I’ve changed my mind. I know I like being able to express myself anonomously. I like talking with people that are like-minded. People I know I would like and respect if I knew them personally. So I came to this conclusion. You need us. You need us to vent all the hate and rage that’s stored up inside you. Jake was right. That’s why you monitor us, and then, when you have enough to spew out some crap, you let us have it. It’s probably therapy for you, which is good. Because, you’d probably be dangerous if you didn’t have some outlet. So go ahead, say what you want. You’re meaningless to all of us. Who cares what you say, except, maybe you. You even threw us a curve. You get back on and say it was for laughs. That you’re sorry? Please. Was that a spark of consience, or just a trap so we would start responding and give you some more ammo? Americanwoman is right, too. Who needs to read anything you write? I probably will if you do, because, that’s the way I am, but I won’t answer it, and I don’t think it will even make me mad anymore. You’re a frickin nut, and you really should take Jake’s advice, and get some help before you snap and do something stupid. And by the way, I didn’t have the romp you seemed to think I was in for. This girl lost her husband to cancer after a long battle several months ago. She has the cutest little 4 year old girl you’d ever want to see, and we took her, as well as my son and a friend of his with us. Not really the atmosphere for a sexual encounter. She and her daughter have their room, and we have ours. And guess what, I even paid for everything. We used my SUV, I paid for all the gas, the meals, the rooms, the entertainment, the souveneirs…everything. She offered to chip in several times, but I refused. I enjoyed doing it, too. We’ve had a great time so far. So, pal, I guess chivalry is only dead to little weasels like you.
Jake, if I ever lose this website, and can never talk to you again, I want you to know I really am glad I “met” you. I think you’re a great guy and would like to shake you’re hand. I take that back. I’d like to hug you.
Curious, I’m not queer and I’m not a pedophile. I just love people and kids.
September 10, 2006 at 4:27 pm
Zealot:
Glad to hear you are having a good time. Your post #353 -PERFECTION and just when Curious had me speachless.
Curious: If you ever want to rejoin the human race,I sincerely hope you get some counseling.
I don’t know what your problems are but I venture to say they will not go away by themselves.
The people on this board are a microcosm of American society in general and as a whole ,we are a pretty good bunch of people. We take care of our own .
As Zealot just said,regarding your behavior towards the people on this board-
“It’s probably therapy for you, which is good. Because, you’d probably be dangerous if you didn’t have some outlet”.
There’s nothing to be ashamed of in seeking counseling. We all have problems which we have to deal with. Sometimes it helps to talk it out with a counselor or a friend.
And by the way ,I think that most of the people on this board “turn the other cheek” because thats the way we are. There is one caveat: we only have 2.
September 10, 2006 at 9:24 pm
I have to say after reading what Curious had to say about me, I was so embarrassed I cried. It even made me sick to my stomach because I knew all of you would read that and I just felt awful all day. I was never going to get on here again because of him, but, Zealot, you are still my hero and my dream man. I envy that girl if you’re interested in her. I really do. Thank you and Big Jake. You two fella’s are something else. And you know what? I don’t care what that loser has to say about me anymore, either. He’s such a low life. I wish he’d crawl back under his rock and stay there.
September 10, 2006 at 9:27 pm
Date: 09/20/2001 01:54 PM EDT
From: John
To: President George W. Bush
Subject: I am an American
Dear Mr. President,
I am an American.
I am not of one color, but of many.
My forefathers are not from one country, but from all countries.
I have brothers and sisters from Washington state to Washington D.C.,
from California to the Carolinas, from Hawaii to New Hampshire,
from Alaska to Alabama, and from Minnesota to Mississippi.
I am an American.
I believe in the importance of sharing Thanksgiving Dinner with your family,
and Fourth of July parades with your community.
I enjoy the peace of Christmas Day, and the excitement of New Year’s Eve.
I am an American.
I believe in a kind and benevolent God,
Who does not condone the taking of innocent life.
I believe our worth is measured not by what we have,
but by what we do.
I am an American.
I believe in Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness,
The Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
And I believe in the Pledge of Allegiance to Our Flag.
I AM AN AMERICAN,
AND I WILL NOT ALLOW
OUR FREEDOM TO BE DEFEATED!
John
Rome, New York
September 10, 2006 at 9:56 pm
Peace
Date: 09/18/2001 09:03 AM EDT
From: Sami
To: President George W. Bush
Subject: Peace
Dear Mr. President,
Your words at the Islamic Center in Washington D.C. have touched all Arab Americans and Muslim Americans. Thank you for standing out so strongly for the rights of all people in this nation regardless of color, race, creed or religion. You are a patriot of principles. We all stand with you in condemning this heinious crime against humanity.
Please accept our heartfelt sympathies and condolences. As a 2nd generation Arab-American family, we share and grieve with everyone. We all wake up everyday to go to work in order to provide for our loved ones. We all fly on planes as part of business or pleasure.
This is the American way of life, and we cherish it. The tragedy that befell all those who went to work that morning or who got onto an airplane touches each and everyone. Brooklyn is my place of birth, and New York City is one of mankind’s greatest engineering marvels. The devastation brought on by such senseless and mad people is beyond comprehension.
The henious acts perpetrated on Sept. 11 is condemned in the strongest terms by people of all faiths and ethnic backgrounds. This is clearly a crime against humanity. May God bless you with all the strength and wisdom needed to carry this nation forward in these difficult times.
Salam, Peace, and Shalom,
Sami
Naperville, Illinois
2nd Generation Arab American
September 10, 2006 at 10:11 pm
Lovesamerica – I was going to drop visiting the site, too. It makes me physically ill to think there are guys like Curious out there. You didn’t say anything wrong either. So you want a decent guy. What woman doesn’t? Zealot sounds like an awesome guy. He’s single. You’re single. All you did was tell him why you and your friends think he’s great. He took it well and I’m sure you gave his ego a boost. There is nothing wrong with that.
Big Jake – nice letters especially with the impending anniversary. I live in a very, very liberal state right now. I caught a show on Canadian television pursuing this theory that 9-11 was put in motion by Bust. It makes me sick.
September 10, 2006 at 10:36 pm
You all really do make me sick. You’re all a bunch of psychiatrists now. Trying to make me feel like I have a problem because I see what’s deep inside all of you and you don’t want to admit it. But you all know it’s there. I try to make amends and you still just tear me down. You have your own little clique. You never asked me to join it. None of you ever got on here and said, Hey Curious, what do you think about this or that. And we like you and you’re smart. I never got that. All the compliments go to Big Jake and Zealot. And they seem to be each other’s biggest fans. You all chum up to each other and act like you care so much about each other and you don’t even know who you’re talking to and you call me nuts. Zealot, you look up to Big Jake like you actually know him. How did that happen? You said you want to hug him. Why? What does he do that makes you act like that? And the girls think you’re so special. Why? What’s so great about you? Just because you’re a firemen? So what if you are. Big deal. Whoopdy do. A firemen. Like that’s something so great. Every little kid wants to be a firemen so all that tells me is that you never grew up. All men go to work and most of us work our asses off. So what I don’t go into burning buildings or save someone millions on their taxes. Does that make you both better than me? I think it’s dumb to go into a burning building, but the girls seem to think it’s what a real man does. I don’t think so. You girls act like Big Jake and Zealot are so great. So smart. So hot. So sexy. Most of the stuff Big Jake puts on here someone else wrote. But Zealot looks up to him like he’s the big king. And then you talk about me like I’m crazy. I’m not crazy. I would’ve been different if you would’ve been nice to me in the beginning. But no, Zealot had to call me a prick right away and that lovesamerica chick had to incinuate that she would say F-you to me. The only problem I have is why your clique is so exclusive. I like to get on here and read what you all say but you don’t want me to be a part of it. I’m still going to read what you say and if you don’t like what I say and you want to ignore me I don’t really care. I’m still going to read everything the big kingpins write.
September 10, 2006 at 11:26 pm
Okay Curious, I did what I said I wouldn’t (and I’ll probably kick myself for it) but I read your last post. I am willing to give you a chance despite a few really mean things you’ve said about me and my husband. You say you feel attacked. To be bluntly honest, I think you’ve brought alot of it on yourself. You called me ugly, fat, and stupid. You don’t know what I look like and I’m none of those things. I think if you read what’s been said on this site, you’ll find that we (women) value guys who get up, go to work everyday, work their butts off when they’re at work, and come home every night (in a pretty decent mood). We just want some recognition and appreciation that what we do day in and day out isn’t easy either. I know there are crappy women in this world who use men and I’ll be the first to condemn what they do. However, there are men out there who really hate women and abuse them. I’ll take plenty of heat from feminists, but it’s a fact that 99% of you men are one hell of a lot stronger than us women. If you want to hit us, you can do one hell of a lot of damage. If I punched you, you’d probably laugh your head off. So the way I look at it is that men are responsible for keeping their tempers in check and walking away when an argument gets out of control because it is you who can do the most damage. I know one of the guys just told Lovesamerica that heroes come in all kinds of packages, not just military, police, and fire uniforms and that is a true, true statement. I think the comment you made to Viber probably initiated alot of the heat you took. You have to admit that was really below the belt. Women don’t forget stuff like that. We take it really personally. And so what if we give Big Jake, Eagle, DJ and others lots of credit for knowing the stuff they do. I know just about everything you need to know on how to keep a lawn green and in great shape. I make a mean apple pie and if it’s decorating/color matching, I’d be an expert there, too. If we were talking about that stuff on the site, then I’d be getting the compliments. Just because others get compliments on what they know, doesn’t mean the rest of us, you included, are a bunch of dummies. Big Jake and Zealot have clicked. Good for them! I feel like I could be Lovesamerica’s big sister. Do you know how discouraging it is to be a 24 year old women and date guy after guy who just wants to sleep with you? You feel like a piece of meat. There’s a saying out there … “once bitten, twice shy” and I think you’ll probably have that from some of us. For me, if you want to chime in with your opinions on the topic and they aren’t a personal attack, I’ll read them.
September 10, 2006 at 11:32 pm
zealot :
Buffalo lost 19-17to Bills heartbreaker
Jets won 23-16 over Titans Pennington is BACK !
September 11, 2006 at 12:30 am
Big Jake: I know, I know. Rub it in..I’m cryin’ in my beer. They should’ve won that game, too. They were up for awhile. I think that will be their legacy..”they shoulda won” Man, I wish they’d make me proud!
Watchin the Giants/Colts game right now. They had a great intro with pictures of 9-11.
5 years tomorrow…never again.
September 11, 2006 at 12:32 am
I like football, too.
September 11, 2006 at 12:36 am
Big Jake: Got home this afternoon. Have the laptop in the living room with me while I’m watching the game.
Too bad I can’t talk with you one on one, because, quite frankly, I don’t know what to make of this shit, if you know what I mean.
September 11, 2006 at 12:58 am
Curious:
I just read your post #359 . It brought me back to my college days ,dealing with friends who had too much to drink and had alcohol poisoning.
They would puke up their guts or have their stomachs pumped . Then they felt better .
You just went through a catharsis. You let out the poison that was in your system. You will feel alot better because you got it off your chest.
No one ever said that you were unwelcome prior to the insults . Unfortunately , the insults started with your first post #139 and got worse as time went on. I’d say you got off on the wrong foot.
As to who’s smart and who’s great and who’s this or that ,that’s all kid stuff. We all have an opinion about something .That’s what a forum is all about . We want to promote an exchange of ideas .That is how we see a different point of view and form and adjust opinions we may or may not have.
Regarding counseling , I speak from the heart and from experience. I was being honest when I suggested that you talk to a friend or see a counselor . We all have things that bother us . Death of a loved one, the end of a relationship , EVEN THINGS ,YOU ARE NOT AWARE OF.whatever. I’ve had problems in my life with accepting my father’s death and my reaction almost ended my marriage. Dude, I’ve been to hell and back looking for answers. Read my posts,I think I am finding my way.
I’m willing to bury the hatchet if you are.
What do you say?
September 11, 2006 at 1:02 am
Curious:
Favorite team?
September 11, 2006 at 1:14 am
Zealot, I think I know what you mean. Is it possible that Curious is serious about an apology? Could he really have been kidding? If so, he has far different a funny bone than I, but maybe he’s serious. I had asked him once if he’s an American and I didn’t get an answer. I’ve lived in a lot of foreign countries and what goes for “joking” around is a lot different than what we think is okay. He said once that I am naive, and I can be. I’m willing to give him a chance if he cleans up his act. One of the dangers of being in these exchanges is that one could potentially come in as several different people. I’m an honest person. What I say is what I think. I’ve worried that I’ve given far too much personal info away, but it’s hard not to trust stuff written by you, Big Jake, Eagle, and DJ (Red Dawn, Viber, Lovesamerica and a few others as well). I would hate to lose communication with you all. Red Dawn, Viber, and Eagle have probably checked out, and I think that’s a shame. I don’t know what to think!
September 11, 2006 at 1:37 am
Big Jake: Post 239 was just a joke. Viber got all upset because she’s so religious she doesn’t know how to take something that’s a little dirty, so she pulls a pout and never comes back. Then Red Dawn put me down about it. That’s what bugs me about women. They all act like a bunch of sisters. Be honest. Didn’t you laugh at some of the stuff I said? Zealot, he drives me nuts. I always thought he acted pissed when he wrote in. As soon as everyone finds out he’s a firemen everything changed. Why do you like him so much and want him to watch movies and discuss it with you? I know he’s going to read this, and I don’t care. I know he’d like to hit me. He always says it or implies it. I think he sounds violent. These women on here don’t like hitting, but they love him because he beat the shit out of somebody. Do you just feel sorry for him because his wife died? And I didn’t tell Americanwoman she was fat and ugly. All I said was that it was a possibility. You all could be fat and ugly for all I know. Even wonderful firefighter Zealot. He could have zits and pimples and B.O. And he takes offense to everything you say about women. Like he’s their big protector. You all kicked me out of here once and I really don’t think I did anything all that bad.
I hate the Bills. I like the Jets, the Giants, and the Patriots. But, I hate the Bills.
September 11, 2006 at 2:12 am
Americanwoman & Big Jake: It’s been nice. But this thing isn’t going to be the same anymore. Curious is a basket case. He’s playing us and I’m not in to mind games.
I’ve liked knowing all of you.
God Bless and Good luck in all you do.
September 11, 2006 at 4:58 am
curious:
To be honest ,I got a chuckle out of the male enhancement video thing but the rest of it especially with the ladies was mean spirited and crass.
You have to consider other people’s feelings, and be sensitive to issues that might be hurtful.
You have been reading the posts enough to see that things you posted have been hurtful but you didn’t care.
There is a decorum ,a community standard that should be followed . This isn’t a bar room .
I don’t know what you want me to tell you.
September 11, 2006 at 5:04 am
Zealot:
Happy trails ,Little Brother.
It has been fun .
God Bless and take care of yourself.
September 11, 2006 at 6:15 am
I’m up at 2am to say the same thing. Curious, I think you’re of Middle Eastern heritage where women are on the bottom of the rung and that’s what made it okay for you to say the stuff you did to us women and why it means so much to you that BJ and Z had issues with you.
Best wishes to you all. May we remain ever vigilent after 9-11. Zealot, I hope you find a woman worthy of you. Lovesamerica, hang in there and don’t settle short, but don’t overlook the guy who’s a little on the quiet side.
September 11, 2006 at 7:42 am
Americanwoman, Lovesamerica, DJ,VIBER,EAGLE,Red Dawn:
Take care of yourselves .God Bless America.
Its a shame that we got torpedoed as a group on 9-11 AGAIN
September 11, 2006 at 6:04 pm
All,
If this is “Happy Trails,” then it’s been a pleasure. I hope we cross paths in some other web forum in the future.
Oh, and Curious, I’m not bald and I don’t wear thick glasses, just thin ones for reading. Remember, you can’t judge a book by its cover and stereotypes are soooo last week. Except for male muslim extremists between the ages of 14 and 45. ; )
September 11, 2006 at 6:18 pm
WAIT A MINUTE!!!
I’m back guys! What, we can’t still discuss things because someone wants to be nasty? Are we REALLY going to allow ourselves to be bombed again on 9-11?
We don’t have to respond to his posts, don’t have to be played. It’s a choice.
Geez, guys; this the American way? People get hateful or rude and we tuck tail and run?
Americanwoman–Don’t leave yet! Just been real busy but I have been coming in and keeping up with your posts. And I’ve missed you too!
Big Jake and D.J.–I love your commentary and your insightful knowledge.
zealot–I was truly touched to see that you became a christian and am so happy to know you’re my spiritual brother.
lovesamerica–Don’t be ashamed of thinking the qualities that zealot has exhibited are to be desired in a man. Find the man that emulates those qualities and you will have a friend, and potentially more, for life.
Guys, you are like a brother/sisterhood to me. I feel that we could all be the greatest of friends.
If we don’t want to communicate here because we can’t keep certain people out, would it be possible for us to set up our own discussion forum and moderate it so that only those that are considerate are allowed? How could we do this? I know the forum would be easy, but how to let one another know where to go to join up? I was talking to my husband about this the another night and he says there’s a way, he’d have to think about it. He’s been following all of our conversations and has been impressed with everyone.
Come on guys, what do you say???
I know I could go and set up a forum, make it with a membership only, and post the site here.
You guys could come over and join.
We’d know each other and anyone that revealed themselves as a jerk I’d knock off.
What do you think? Hope you guys are reading this!
September 11, 2006 at 6:31 pm
Red Dawn – I just checked in to read other farewells. I’d be willing to participate in your blog. My concern is that Curious has been a few different people on this site. His hatred for Zealot would eventually show through I guess. I’ll check back to see what you can come up with. I had wondered if we could do something similar.
September 11, 2006 at 6:56 pm
Yes, he would eventually show himself.
How about this: I could get a temporary email address and each one of you guys could email me from whatever address you wish to use.
How to know it’s you…hmmm. Well, for starters, you’d have to use your moniker here in your email to me.
Perhaps you could tell me a couple of stand-out letters or something to look for to authenticate your email address here…like, say you posted as usual under your name “Americanwoman” here and told me to look for “ca” in the email address you mailed from. Of course, someone could go to the trouble of creating an email with that in it and say it was from you BUT I could check back here first and tell you I have received your email and ask you for one more clarifying part of your email address. I know it sounds like a little bit of work but not really…we can do this and it would take no time. Come on guys!
September 11, 2006 at 7:11 pm
Ok, better yet…
I’ll post an email address for you guys that are interested in starting our own private discussion group to contact me at. You contact me and I’ll come back and post here that I have received your email.
I’ll then take something from that email address, say your address is susanbanthony@service.com, and post here asking you to verify, saying “Americanwoman-does your email address contain the word “ant”?” You verify whether or not this is the case. Very unlikely someone would send me an email from “you” with that in their email address.
September 11, 2006 at 7:18 pm
I hope I’m getting you guys before you sign off for good!
You never know if we could have that cocktail party in real life oneday!
September 11, 2006 at 7:39 pm
YEHAA COUNT ME IN TOO! I LOVE YOU GUYS!
September 11, 2006 at 8:02 pm
Oh YEA!
I’m going to get that email address right now and we’ll work out the particulars.
I love you guys, too, and this is going to be FANTASTIC!
September 11, 2006 at 8:17 pm
Calling zealot, viber, DJ, lovesamerica, Eagle, I’ll be back with an address you can contact me on.
Hope you all will join us!
September 11, 2006 at 8:41 pm
Alright guys, contact me here:
eyes.heart.truth@hotmail.com
I really hope to hear from everyone I mentioned. I will post here that I have received your email and pick a “word” made up from letters in your email address. You’ll have to verify it for me on this blog.
Again, example:
You email with the address j.q.public@service.com and obviously use the moniker you have here. I will contact you here and ask you specifically if this “word” can be found in your email address. If we verify this, I’ll contact you via your email address.
Make sense?
September 11, 2006 at 8:44 pm
Sorry, meant to say that if your email address was “j.q.public@service.com” I’d post here and ask you if your email address contained a “word”, in this case, “pub”.
September 11, 2006 at 9:48 pm
Red Dawn, why don’t you mind you’re own business?
Big Jake and I are starting to connect and you start this thing to squeeze me out. Just because I made you mad a couple of times. That’s not fair. Where’s the rest of the crew at? I don’t see them hopping on trying to get some private thing going. Where’s Zealot. Haven’t heard a peep from him since I said I hated the Bills. Everyone hates the Bills, so I don’t know why that made him mad. He just wants me off, too, because he doesn’t like to hear the truth about himself. And DJ, shut up. Glasses for reading…now we know you’re an old man.
September 12, 2006 at 3:03 am
Big Jake–
I do believe I’ve received your email. Is the word “pal” in your email address? Let me know and also if you have received my email.
September 12, 2006 at 3:15 am
curious–I AM minding my own business by not allowing your disruptions into further conversations that we’d like to share. If you’ve noticed, everyone wanted out when you continued to post and you really ruined it for everyone. Nobody has any desire to pander to someone who wants to make his posts, not about articulate matters, but about their own hang ups.
I have developed quite a bit of affection for these other people and would like to continue without your snide comments or your rather less than sublime observations. I’m being kind there, so take it for what it is.
September 12, 2006 at 3:19 am
Red Dawn:
“pal”is my middle name.
September 12, 2006 at 3:26 am
Thank you! I’m good with that. Be back at the other….
September 12, 2006 at 3:34 am
Americanwoman–
Still waiting on you to contact me at eyes.heart.truth@hotmail.com
And all those that I mentioned.
September 12, 2006 at 12:44 pm
visit http://mylinkpedia.com/myfav.php?mode=&mw=search&pa=aXJhbiArZmFyc2kgK3BlcnNpYW4=&pa2=1&pa3=0
to find links about iran
September 12, 2006 at 2:55 pm
Re: Red Dawn #390, my info is inbound to you.
Curious # 385. So I need reading glasses. Why does that make me “old?” “Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional.” I’ll always be a child at heart. Just a mature one. You on the other hand insist on stirring up discord. You would be the one to have to go stand in the hall for disrupting the class. Making jokes with your comments? Not that I can see. Simply hurtful barbs meant to get a similar response from the ones you tried to hurt to garner the attention your tortured soul craves. Please follow Big Jake’s advice and seek help. No one on this site wishes you ill. We wish you a happy life and the chance to fulfill your dreams and desires. We simply do not appreciate your style of commentary. But, hey, that’s what America was founded on. Freedom of speech, expression, beliefs, etc. When some of the others responded to you they were excercising their rights, too. It is a “two-way street.” If you don’t like it, you are free to leave. The fact that a lot of us are wishing to start a private forum should be a message to you to do some soul searching and self analyzing. Like the saying goes, “Do unto to others as you would have done unto you.” WWJD?
September 12, 2006 at 4:27 pm
DJ–
I believe I received your email. So I’ll ask, do you work for the state of Texas?
Let me know and I’ll be back with you on the other.
BTW guys, I had a blast getting to know “Big Jake” better through private emails. We “talked” last night for quite awhile! I look forward to doing the same with the rest of you.
I am getting ready to set up the forum and believe Big Jake and I have a good name for it. So email me! 🙂
September 12, 2006 at 4:47 pm
Red Dawn –
I’m in.
September 12, 2006 at 6:18 pm
Americanwoman–
I believe I’ve received your email so here’s the word verification:
“eve”
🙂
September 12, 2006 at 7:17 pm
Hi Red Dawn and all the others I feel I know.
I hae never commented on here before, because there were so many undesirables, (especially one) that I was nervous about it.
I love reading all the information from Big Jake,
DJ, Eagle, American Woman, and of course, you.
I would like to be part of your private forum, so
if you will allow me to, my email is ksipko@verizon.net
I understand if you hesitate to do this, and there will be no hard feelings.
I will miss you all, and thank you for all of your wonderful commentaries.
September 12, 2006 at 7:42 pm
Everyone!!! I just did something really stupid and I will be changing my email address tonight when I get home!!
September 12, 2006 at 8:43 pm
Red Dawn – that would be me.
Sispan – change your email address ASAP and then follow Red Dawn’s instructions on how to participate in the new venture.
September 12, 2006 at 8:44 pm
Re: Red Dawn # 393; Yes, I work for the state of Texas.
Re: Sipsan # 396; ooops! “See” ya on the new site.
September 12, 2006 at 10:36 pm
Zealot, Lovesamerica, if you’re monitoring … get another email address (and make it anonymous so there’s no name in it) that you can drop if this doesn’t work out. That way, there’s little to no vulnerability on your part. Believe me, I was worried about it. You don’t have to give any personal info … follow Red Dawn’s instructions. You can even monitor the new site before responding. I feel like you two are the “real” deal and I think I speak for all when I say we’d like to continue the correspondence.
Amir … so, what can you tell us about you?
September 13, 2006 at 1:14 am
Amir, I went out to the site and it didn’t say much. What would you like us to glean from it?
September 13, 2006 at 1:29 am
An Open Letter to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
September 6, 2006
Mr. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, President of the Islamic Republic of Iran,
Please allow me to introduce myself. My name is Joel Richardson. Actually this is not my real name, but rather a pen name that I use when engaging in interfaith dialogue with Muslims—a labor of love which has occupied me for the past several years. The reason that I use this pen name is because I have been issued some very specific Islamic death threats after a Muslim that I was dialoguing with converted to Christianity. The e-mail that I received essentially threatened that my head would be cut off and that my family would be killed. Since those days, I have continued to dialogue with Muslims in a spirit of peace and love, although I now have chosen to use this pen name. As such, I ask for your forgiveness for not fully revealing myself to you. I would very much like to do so. Nevertheless, it is my sincere hope that if this letter should miraculously find its way into your hands that you would consider what this little American Christian of no account would like to express to you.
It was with a certain measure of amazement that I read the news that you would be visiting my country next week to address the United Nation General Assembly. Indeed you have surprised the world on more than one occasion over the past several months since your recent election as President of the Islamic Republic of Iran. Many people all over the world have read your open letter to George W. Bush, the President of the United States and invited him to convert to Islam. Many of us also watched as you were interviewed by Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes. As for myself, I have been closely following your brief career as the President of Iran. I have watched as you have made some very bold and at times some very threatening statements. I have also closely followed your many open declarations about the soon emergence of your Messiah figure, Imam al-Mahdi. And of course, most have closely watched as your nation continues its apparent rush toward the acquiring of nuclear capabilities.
As a Christian and an American, I write to you not only to express some of my concerns, but also to ask you some questions—if you would allow me the privilege to do so.
I am greatly concerned of course for the future relationship between our two countries; the U.S. and Iran. I am most concerned of course for the future of my children—their safety and their well-being. But I am also greatly concerned for the millions of lives of common people that also may be at risk in these seemingly tense times—Iranian, Israeli, American and European—Muslim, Christian and Jewish.
Mr. President, in your letter to President Bush, you said this:
“I have no doubt that telling lies is reprehensible in any culture, and you do not like to be lied to.”
Of course, while much of the world has never heard of the doctrines of Kithman or al-Taqiyya, as a Shi’a Muslim, you are most certainly aware of these terms, are you not? Certainly you are aware of the words of Imam Jafar Sadiq, the sixth Imam of Shi’a Islam who clearly disagrees with you about the reprehensibility of lying. In fact, he even states that Allah will dishonor anyone who tells the truth about certain elements of Islam:
“One who exposes something from our religion is like one who intentionally kills us.”
“You belong to a religion that whosoever conceals it, Allah will honor him and whosoever reveals it, Allah will disgrace him.”
I have also read from A Shi’a Enclopedia a specific definition of al-Taqiyya:
“The word ‘al-Taqiyya’ literally means: ‘Concealing or disguising one’s beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of imminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury.’ A one-word translation would be ‘Dissimulation’”.
So Mr. President, my first question to you would be the following: Would I be wrong to believe the words of your Imam and the words of your scholars by understanding that Shi’a Muslims are commanded to purposefully hide what they truly believe in order to mislead others as to the true nature of their religion, their “beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies”? As a Christian I am immediately reminded of the words of Jesus who told his followers never to hide their religion:
You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. Matthew 5:14-16
Mr. President, to the vast majority of the people of the world, religion and deceit are simply not compatible concepts. Basic human intuition exposes such as completely contrary to the divine nature. God does not lie, nor does he ask his followers to lie or hide the truth. In short Mr. President, how could any religion that claims to emanate from God—who is pure light and truth—ever actually command and promote deception toward non-believers and outsiders?
And even more importantly, Mr. President; you are a Shi’a Muslim. In light of the doctrines of Kithman and al-Taqiyya, how can anyone not question the truthfulness of anything that you say to those of us outside of the Shi’a faith? How do the people and the leaders of the world not know that you are simply utilizing al-Taqiyya in an attempt to deceive us?
Mr. President, despite the fact that your nation essentially sits atop an endless supply of oil, how is it that you expect intelligent people to believe you when you claim that your only motivation to achieve nuclear capabilities is for energy? In light of the millions of lives that may potentially be at risk due to a potential nuclear exchange, wouldn’t the leaders of the world be utterly foolish to accept anything you say regarding your nuclear program? And wouldn’t their foolishness be multiplied by the fact that you regularly seem to make outlandish comments such as your recent statement at the “World without Zionism Conference”:
“They say, ‘how could we have a world without America and Zionism?’ But you know well that this slogan and goal can be achieved and can definitely be realized.”
Mr. President, certainly you must realize how such comments will be viewed by the rest of the world.
Mr. President, I would like to be as frank and as honest with you as I can. What thoughts come to your mind when you think about such men as Adolph Hitler, or Saddam Hussein? History has judged these men as both pawns of the devil and failures, but a far worse judgment awaits both of these men when they face their Creator. Surely you would not desire to be found in the company of such men on the Day of Judgment?
Mr. President, I read your invitation issued just today calling the people of the West to Islam. You also said that anyone who declines such an invitation would have a bad future. Mr. President, I would like to now also invite you to become a Christian—a follower of Jesus. I would also like to explain to you why I must decline your invitation to Islam and why you should accept my invitation.
Mr. President, if you would allow me, I would like to tell you a story. You are obviously a very influential Muslim leader. For the sake of this story, let us say that we have two other great and legendary Muslim leaders: Caliph Omar and also Salah’ ad-Din (Saladin). These two men are among the most legendary and admired leaders throughout Muslim history. Now imagine if I claimed that both of these great leaders played with little girls’ dolls. Initially any self-respecting Muslim would be infuriated at such an allegation. “Never!” it would be protested; “Far be it from Omar or Saladin that they should play with little girls’ dolls! These are great men! It is not befitting that Omar or Saladin to say that they would play with dolls!”
Initially this might sound quite reasonable. But what if the story unfolded that both Omar and Saladin had a daughter? And what if we learned that these daughters were most pleased with their Daddy when he got down on the floor and played with them as they played with their little dolls? What if we learned that because of the father’s great love for their daughters, that they humbled themselves and did this with their beautiful little daughters on a regular basis? Would these men be better leaders and better men for doing this or would they be less respectable men and poorer leaders? Surely, Mr. President, you would agree that this humble act would make them better men and greater leaders?
Now, what if we learned that Saladin played with his daughters while Omar absolutely refused to do so? What if Omar agreed with the statement above that he was far above ever doing such a thing? Which leader would then be a greater leader? Which would be more appealing? Omar or Saladin? Personally I would see Saladin as being a far better Daddy, a far better man, and thus a far better leader. I’m sure you would agree. As such Saladin would be a better and more admirable leader, while Omar would be a less qualified leader. Remember, Mr. President; true greatness does not need to be guarded. It does not need to be belabored in order to be authentic. True greatness is self-evident and self-preserving.
Your religion claims that God would never become a man, regardless of the reason.
“Far be it from God that He should have a son! It is not befitting of the Almighty that He should do such a thing!” Sura 19:35
But in this attempt to establish Allah as greater, he has simply become more distant. Is not Allah like Omar in the story above? The Christian belief of God, however, is that He is more like unto Saladin, the loving father in the story above. Because God is good in the purest sense, He desires to share Himself with us. He wants to reveal himself to us. He doesn’t merely want us to have abstract knowledge about Him—He wants us to actually know Him. Jesus revealed the man-befriending-God to us. Jesus said:
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” John 14:6,7
Mr. President, your religion also refers to Jesus as “The Word of God”. Let me ask you, can a person’s words be separated from him? Or are a person’s words invariably part of him? This is an analogy that God wanted us to understand when we think about the relationship of the Son to the Father. Both the terms, the Son and the Word, are very similar in the sense that each proceeds forth from the Father. The Son bears the very essence of the Father while the Word is the inner expression of a person. “Out of the heart, the mouth speaks.” So again affirming both the Son’s divinity as well as the fact that all things were created by Him, John the Apostle says that,
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men.” John 1:1-4
When we compare the Islamic concept of God to the Christian concept on this point, the Christian concept is far more intellectually and emotionally appealing. The incarnation (God dwelling among men through the person of Jesus) as utterly astounding as it is, is also the most awe-inspiring and incredible idea that one could ever conceive. In fact it is Islam’s denial of the incarnation that makes it so utterly unappealing. In Christian theology, God says to each individual, “I love you this much, and here is how I have proven it forever.” God became a man and suffered in our place for our deliverance.
Mr. President, throughout history, the Christian Church has affirmed the following:
We believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hades.
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
According to this ancient Christian Creed, Mr. President, when you stand before the Judge of the Earth, His name will be Jesus Christ. On that day there will be no excuse for denying that He indeed has come, was crucified, buried and has risen from the dead. Of course, I’m quite sure that you do not accept this. But Mr. President, have you ever considered the fact that every one of Jesus’ disciples, except possibly John, dedicated and eventually gave their very lives as martyrs while preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus—the very Christian Gospel message? Mr. President, what logical answer is there as to why the disciples would give their lives for a complete lie? Unless the disciples were wholly confident of the fact that Jesus was crucified and resurrected, why would they dedicate the remainder of their lives preaching such a lie? Muslims deny the historicity of the crucifixion and resurrection, but they are unable to answer some of the basic questions that explain why the disciples—the very eyewitnesses—would have lived and died as if it were absolutely true. There are many theories among Muslim scholars as to what may have happened. But none can agree. For regarding the crucifixion, burial and resurrection of Christ, in light of the abundant historical evidence attesting such, the Muslim scholars have only conjecture to follow (Surah 4:157-8). Among the various theories offered, some Muslim Scholars teach that God tricked or deceived the disciples.
Mr. President, did Allah deceive Jesus’ followers? Does this make any sense to you? If Jesus’ disciples were preaching a lie, then would you agree that Jesus was the biggest failure of all of the prophets? For if Jesus’ true message was not carried on by a single one of his disciples, if after he ascended to heaven, all his disciples were deceived, then indeed, Jesus was the greatest failure of all prophets. Yet even Islam claims that Jesus is second only to Muhammad in terms of the greatest prophets.
Mr. President, the Islamic worldview, when compared to the simple facts of history, simply does not make sense. Jesus—the historical facts surrounding His life and the life of His disciples—is the thorn in the side of Islam, not its vindicator, as we would expect if indeed Islam were only a continuation of the religion that Jesus preached. Islam is not a continuation of the true religion that was declared by the true prophets of God, but something new altogether. Mr. President, I call on you to turn away from religious innovations and to turn to the Truth.
Mr. President, I have heard much of your repeated eschatological references to the soon emergence of Imam al-Mahdi, the one who you refer to as the “last repository, the promised one, that perfect and pure human being, the one that will fill this world with justice and peace.” I have also studied the Islamic traditions about al-Mahdi in great depth. As you have stated to your people, “Today, we should define our economic, cultural and political policies based on the policy of Imam Mahdi’s return.” I also noticed in your letter to President Bush that you accept the idea that Jesus will also return to the earth. Those of us who are familiar with Islamic eschatology understand that Muslims believe that Jesus will return as a subordinate to the Mahdi. We have seen the Islamic traditions that have spoken of the day when Imam Mahdi, with the assistance of Jesus will unite the Muslim Ummah, attack and defeat the Jewish nation and ultimately cause the entire world to submit to Islam. We have read the opinions of your scholars that the rule of your Imam will only be established with great bloodshed. In Ayatollah Ibrahim Amini’s work on the subject of Mahdism for instance: Al-Imam Al-Mahdi: The Just Leader of Humanity, we read of those who refuse to convert to Islam and submit to the Mahdi’s leadership over the earth:
This group will indisputably be opposed to justice and will never give up their stubborn antagonism against any power. Such people will do anything against the promised Mahdi to protect their vested interests. Moreover, they will do anything within their power to demoralize and combat those who support the Imam (Mahdi). To crush the negative influence of this group there is no other solution except warfare and bloodshed.
And again, we read that:
The Mahdi will offer the religion of Islam to the Jews and Christians; if they accept it they will be spared, otherwise they will be killed.
Mr. President, thinking people around the world will certainly ask; if Islam is such a true and wonderful religion, why then is it necessary to resort to jihad, force and bloodshed to spread among mankind? If God truly wanted Islam to spread, would he not simply cause it to do so through peaceful means? Or is he unable to do so Himself? In this, do we not see the difference between God and Satan. Does God not offer His truth to mankind according to their own choice and free will? Does not God’s ultimate judgment of each person hinge on their own response to His invitation? But historically it is always oppressive and tyrannical regimes that enforce their ideologies onto the people. Can you see how your religious worldview regarding the eventual triumph of Islam does not reflect the manner in which God offers His mercy to mankind? Can you see how your worldview and expectations of the coming new world under al-Mahdi instead reflect the pattern of other various failed regimes of the past, having been exposed by the very people that they once controlled as being destructive and oppressive to the human spirit? In appealing to all of mankind, Jesus Christ once said,
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. (Matthew 11:28)
Again, if Islam were a true and naturally appealing religion to mankind, then why do we find such a radically different call to accept Islam from your prophet with the words:
“Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.” Surah 2:216
Mr. President, why would anyone long for the day when all of mankind will openly be subjugated to a religion that openly calls for warfare despite mankind’s natural hatred for such? Should not the true religion be something which the very collective soul of mankind bears witness to and affirms rather than something which your Quran admits is “hateful” to mankind? You seem to be a very brave man; will you search your heart and ask the Lord if indeed he has truly called on his followers to carry out that which is hateful to mankind or if the above quoted verse from your prophet finds it’s inspiration not from God but instead from another source altogether? Will you consider harnessing your bravery and choose to turn toward the truth, which is found only in the freedom that Christ offers and not in Islamic Jihad and the forceful spread of totalitarian religious ideologies? Most importantly, Mr. President, will you reconsider the direction that you are presently leading the Iranian people? Will you choose to lead the Iranian people away from Islamic Jihad and instead to the One whose burden is light—the one who calls those who are weary and burdened and promises genuine rest for their souls? Or will you choose to continue following a dark path and continue to lead the Iranian people toward that which is not only “hateful” to them but also destructive to their lives and their souls? As a humble Christian and a citizens of the Eternal Kingdom of God, I appeal to you to change the path that you are presently leading the Iranian people down and instead to choose the righteous way (John 14:6), whatever the consequences may be. I appeal to you to leave behind the road of Jihad and of Islam and to become a follower of Jesus and a genuine peacemaker. For in doing so, Jesus said that you would be called a Child of God. (Matthew 5)
With Love in Christ,
Joel Richardson
September 13, 2006 at 11:51 am
Dear Joel
I have come as a sister in Christ to offer you comfort, prayer and blessings. I ask you to join me in my fervent prayer. Jesus asked us to pray for our enemies and I understood him to mean that we should pray for their salvation. We are not fighting men, but principalities. They will be defeated by God’s spirit.
May God bless you indeed.
September 13, 2006 at 12:11 pm
Principalities, Powers, World Rulers of Darkness, and Spiritual Wickedness in Spiritual Warfare
A special note: The purpose of this teaching is that we may begin to understand the goodness of God as opposed to the evilness of the devil. These two parameters are often blurred and confused, whereby evil is wrongfully attributed to God, the Father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Understanding the goodness of God is first and foremost in spiritual warfare, in order to build the kind of faith that will move mountains and fulfill God’s promise of victory in our lives.
What are “Principalities, Powers, World Rulers of Darkness, and Spiritual Wickedness in High Places”?
The Apostle Paul tells us to put on our spiritual armour because our battle in this world is a “spiritual” one. A warfare that is against the trickery and power of the devil, as opposed to a human battle. Even though human beings will certainly play a role in this spiritual warfare, they are being used by these entities for the purposes of accomplishing evil. Evil spirits are the true power behind such people. We read,
Eph 6:12: For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Our Spiritual Warfare is Against “Principalities”
The concept of principalities is understood by the Greek word arche meaning chief or ruler. These principalities are ruling devil spirits possessing executive authority or governmental rule in the world. As we will see, this ruling power usually involves a particular nation, people or race. There are evil angels ruling the kingdoms of the world that oppose the truth of God, and of which Satan is the chief prince or ruler, of both the world system and its organization of demons, as noted in the gospel of Matthew.
In Matthew 12:24 the devil is called “Beelzebub” meaning lord of the dwelling, in which these wicked spirits are subject to and operate under Satan’s dominion. They, like their chief prince, direct, control, rule and carry out the present darkness of this world.
The American Heritage Dictionary defines principalities as:
1. A territory ruled by a prince or from which a prince derives his title.
2. The position, authority, or jurisdiction of a prince; sovereignty.
The idea of prince devil spirits ruling or controlling a region is supported in the Old Testament book of Daniel, chapter 10. Daniel is visited by an angel in response to his prayer to God. This angel, who was sent by God to answer Daniel’s prayer, was delayed for 21 days because of a battle that took place between God’s angel and “a prince of the kingdom of Persia.” Daniel reveals the angel’s message in the following verses:
Dan 10:12-13
“Then said he [the angel] unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten [humble] thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.”
The spiritual battle, for this angel, was of such magnitude that Michael, the archangel of God and designated prince of Israel, assisted the angel in battle. Another enemy of God, the prince of Greece, is also mentioned in the verses below.
Dan 10:20-21
“Then said he [the angel], Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.”
The book of Daniel gives us an excellent example of how these unseen spiritual entities fight to increase and maintain their realms of influence and control in order to hinder God’s purposes. In addition, as previously stated, these princes are named after the nations or rather their principalities in which they rule.
It is Satan’s purpose to deceive these nations and to keep them from obtaining a knowledge of God’s truth and salvation through His Son Jesus Christ. In the book of Revelation, chapter 20, Satan is depicted as a deceiver of nations. The Greek word for deceive is planaho, and according to Strong’s Greek Dictionary, this word means to “cause to roam from safety, truth or virtue, go astray, seduce, wander, and to be out of the way.”
Satan’s major success, in deceiving a nation, is due to a lack of discernment on the part of the people. The people are blind to the invisible forces of supernatural evil that are operating and influencing their visible human agents of political, social, religious and philosophical programs. Satan’s greatest victory would be to convince the world that he just doesn’t exist. However, God signifies the devil as the author of sin, sickness and death, and warns us to be alert and vigilant because the devil, as a roaring lion roams about seeking whom he may devour (1 Pet. 5:8).
Therefore, we conclude that our wrestling involves principalities or peoples or regions under the influence and deception of Satan.
Our Spiritual Warfare is Against “Powers and World Rulers of Darkness”
The Greek word for “powers” is exousia which means derived or conferred authority, the warrant or right to do something, or delegated influences of control. Although the word “powers” is left unclear as to Paul’s precise meaning in the verse, this expression is used elsewhere in scripture to infer the powers that be in authority. In keeping with the context of this verse, this would include all high-ranking, evil supernatural powers and the power of sin and evil in operation in the world. The fruits of this type of evil can probably be seen in drug cartels, gross poverty, plagues, terrorism, and other heinous crimes against humanity, even toward the animal kingdom.
Some Christian authors associate “world rulers” with magic and demonic pagan gods such as the Ephesians’ Artemis and seems to be in line with the pagan culture of ancient times, in which temples were dedicated to these pagan deities.
Our Spiritual Warfare is Against “Spiritual Wickedness in Heavenly Places”
The Greek word for wickedness is ponēria and means depravity and particularly in the sense of malice and mischief, plots, sins, and iniquity (Strong’s Gk. Dict.).
Malice [A. H. Dict.] is defined as:
1. A desire to harm others or to see others suffer; extreme ill will or spite.
2. Law — The intent, without just cause or reason, to commit a wrongful act that will result in harm to another.
Satan is also depicted as the prince of the power of the air
Since Satan is the prince of the power of the air, these wicked spirits, in high places, are often understood to be the collective organization of all of Satan’s devil spirits. These malevolent spirits work evil and mischief and operate in our atmosphere. They operate as close to the very air we breathe, and reach to realms beyond. All kinds of spiritual filth is propagated , in these realms, for the purpose of humanity’s deception and subsequent destruction. Prior to becoming a Christian we too walked according to the prince of the power of the air.
Eph 2:2-3
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. (This verse will be treated in a separate post)
As Christians we are delivered from the power of the prince of the air, and from the sinful nature that once ruled our path in life. When we received God’s Holy Spirit, at the moment of our conversion to Christ, we were translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God’s light in which we now have God in Christ in us. We are continually delivered and empowered by God as we walk according to His Word and Spirit that He has given us. As we do this, we take our seat in the heavenlies with Christ, for scripture reads,
Eph 2:5-7
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Jesus is also called a Prince, He is called the Prince of Peace and of Life (Isa. 9:6 and Acts 3:15) Whose kingdom plays no part in this present world system of darkness. Prior to His arrest, Jesus said to His disciples,
Joh 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Joh 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Please note: Jesus is not speaking against the Jews, for Jesus and His followers were Jewish. He is speaking against the hypocritical religious authorities who would have Jesus killed versus lose their sphere of control over the people of God, in which their own belly was their god.
The details of God’s plan, His provision of escape from Satan’s kingdom of darkness through faith in Christ, was kept a mystery from the beginning of time. It wasn’t until the revelation of the Son of God on earth, and His complete victory in His death and resurrection for the salvation of humanity, that the mystery of salvation through Christ is revealed to us. The Apostle Paul states,
1Co 2:7-10: “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”
In other words, if God’s enemies knew that the Lord’s death would bring the Kingdom of God and His power into the hearts of every believer, with His gift of Holy Spirit, and thus bring God’s light into the world, they would not have crucified Him.
Who is your prince?
For the Christian, Jesus Christ is our Prince of Peace and Life and we will reign with Him forevermore.
(orig. post 8/18)
More to come . . .
*Click on the links below if you would like more information on:
What is Salvation and How Do We Know if We Are Saved?
Discerning the difference between the good and false shepherds
The 3 promises of God for abiding in Christ
David’s witness ” O taste and see that the Lord is good”
**Click on the links below if you would like to read more on Spiritual Warfare:
Why the World, the Flesh, and the Devil in Spiritual Warfare?
The Battlefield of the Mind (Part I) Prepare Your Heart for War
Battlefield of the Mind II – Spiritual Armor of God in Spiritual Warfare
send to a friend
About Me
Name: Magdalene
Location: New York, United States
A Christian, servant of Christ & lifetime Bible student. The Kingdom of God is within every believer, and true Christianity is not about being religious or legalistic, but it is to believe in God’s love, Word and power. To walk in His love and power is to live by faith.
Pulling down strongholds with the truth of God’s Word, the power of the holy spirit, and in the operation of faith in our spiritual warfare with the world, flesh, and devil!
http://www.battleinchrist.com
September 13, 2006 at 8:51 pm
Psalms 63:9 But those [that] seek my soul, to destroy [it], shall go into the lower parts of the earth.
Psalms 63:10 They shall fall by the sword: they shall be a portion for foxes.
September 13, 2006 at 8:56 pm
Psalms 63:6 When I remember thee upon my bed, [and] meditate on thee in the [night] watches.
Psalms 63:7 Because thou hast been my help, therefore in the shadow of thy wings will I rejoice.
Psalms 63:8 My soul followeth hard after thee: thy right hand upholdeth me.
Psalms 63:9 But those [that] seek my soul, to destroy [it], shall go into the lower parts of the earth.
Psalms 63:10 They shall fall by the sword: they shall be a portion for foxes.
Psalms 63:11 But the king shall rejoice in God; every one that sweareth by him shall glory: but the mouth of them that speak lies shall be stopped.
September 13, 2006 at 9:15 pm
Hey Buddy…this is great.
Thanks
September 13, 2006 at 9:15 pm
Sipsan and Hepzibah–
If you guys are interested in joining us on the new private board, please email me here and I will tell you where to go.
eyes.heart.truth@hotmail.com
Calling on zealot! Calling on lovesamerica. Hope you guys check back in! We miss you guys; and I’m speaking for Americanwoman, DJ, and Big Jake.
September 14, 2006 at 3:37 am
Just checking something out, sorry
September 14, 2006 at 3:39 am
So, “zealot”, have you decided to address us with upper case “Zealot”? Just curious.
Let me try something else…
September 14, 2006 at 3:41 am
This is Red Dawn. Just wanted to see if I could post as Americanwoman using my registered email address.
If this posts, I know I obviously can. See above.
September 14, 2006 at 3:43 am
Ok guys, I’m over to the other forum and out of here for good. Nothing is protected here. See you there.
September 15, 2006 at 7:00 pm
Zealot ,viber,lovesamerica and Eagle
Please check in .
September 15, 2006 at 9:31 pm
Big Jake: Got your message. It meant a lot. I enjoyed all the friendships, and I miss the exchange. I’m just little hesitant about doing this again. Not that I don’t trust Red Dawn. She’s great. I think I told too much about myself too soon and it didn’t work out very well for me. I’ve got a big mouth, too, and I need to work on that. But I’ll still check in here. I consider you a friend and I learn a lot from your posts. Take care, I’ll keep in touch.
September 15, 2006 at 11:16 pm
zealot:
Good to hear from you again! I will continue to post on this board also. I know you had a difficult time with a certain party on this board ,as we all did.
I know it was aggravating, but I don’t understand your reaction.
“I think I told too much about myself too soon and it didn’t work out very well for me. I’ve got a big mouth, too, and I need to work on that”.
What difference does it make? This is an annoymous board. As long as you do not compromise your id(personal identification,credit card account #’s,personal address, telephone etc.)there should be no problem. If an obnoxious poster makes personal attacks we should contact Quay Fortuna and have him banned from posting.
Anyway , I will continue contributing and as always ,little brother ,it is great to hear from you.
Big Jake
September 15, 2006 at 11:42 pm
zealot–
If this is truly you, we so miss you! Please join us on the other site. We really miss you.
eyes.heart.truth@hotmail.com
You’ll have to check in there and we’ll verify back here.
We can exchange info there, unlike here, on a more personal level. It is safe there.
September 16, 2006 at 1:15 am
This is truly me. Big Jake: I know I’m anonymous. It just seems that my initial resonse to the guy was what got him started. And the more he knew about me, the more he was fueled. All I meant was I should think before I write. I didn’t like my personal life being talked about, and had I not revealed certain things, it wouldn’t have been.
On another note, I really enjoyed the scriptures you posted about spiritual warfare. I must’ve had the “caps” on when I typed because Red Dawn was questioning it. Sorry. I’m not the best typer in the world, either.
What do you think about Pres. Bush not getting his law passed concerning interrogating terrorists?
I have a lot to do this weekend, but if I’m able to, I’m going to watch Frequency. A friend of mine had Field of Dreams and he loaned it to me, so if anything, I’ll watch that again. Just trying to start fresh again. I never did thank lovesamerica for all the nice qualities she attributes to me. American woman said something once that it probably boosted my ego. Stuff like that always makes you feel good, so lovesamerica, thank you. I’m sipping a beer so, “here’s to you”. Here’s to all of you!! You’re great internet friends. No faces, don’t have a clue what any of you are really all about, but I like you all anyway.
September 16, 2006 at 6:29 pm
Hey Z,
Your response didn’t get Curious started. It was probably Viber’s posts. He obviously has issues with Jews or those who support them. He has an issue with you becaue you’re Fire Dept. He doesn’t like lovesamerica because she, being the smart girl she is, is looking for a guy like you. Come on over to the new forum!
September 16, 2006 at 7:33 pm
Americanwoman: I think I will. I want to say what I think and feel and let the chips fall.
Had a tough week and saw some sad things. Messed me up a little bit, but I’m getting back to normal. Whatever that is.
Talk to all of you soon.
September 16, 2006 at 9:38 pm
zealot:
re “What do you think about Pres. Bush not getting his law passed concerning interrogating terrorists?”
We can’t go on following the “Marquis of Queensberry Rules” while the terrorists run rampant.
I heard today that the prisoners were not to be subjected to “humiliation”. They were to have their own private individual toilets.
My post #213
“I don’t know what the answer is but I think it is strange that we are putting the Haditha 8 on trial for their lives and kow-towing to political correctness while these monsters are running wild”.
September 17, 2006 at 2:44 pm
Do not go gentle into that good night
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Dylan Thomas
September 17, 2006 at 3:19 pm
zealot–
Let us cheer you up my friend.We’re here for you and still waiting for you on our forum.
And my brother-in-Christ, I want to share some words that have always given me great comfort.
” Blessed be the God and Father
of our Lord Jesus Christ,
the Father of mercies
and God of all comfort
Who comforts us in all our tribulation,
that we may be able to comfort those
who are in trouble,
with the comfort with which
we ourselves are comforted by God.”
2 Corinthians 1:3-4
And this:
“Anxiety in the heart of a man
causes depression,
But a good word makes it glad!”
Proverbs 12:25
This has ALWAYS given me great comfort because I am so completely imperfect and screw up a lot:
” The steps of a good man
are ordered by the Lord,
And He delights in his way.
Though he fall, he shall not be
utterly cast down;
For the Lord upholds him with His hand.”
This last one absolutely applies to me now as I have gone/ am going through some very difficult circumstances:
” The Lord is near to those who
have a broken heart,
And saves such as have a contrite spirit.”
Psalm 34:18
Hope you all have a good day! I’m off to football and am NOT going to think about how completely ironic it is that all the muslims are outraged because the pope said parts of the Quran were evil as it advocated violence and the muslims, upon hearing this, go and prove the truth of this statement by behaving violently.
September 17, 2006 at 4:16 pm
Bravo, Red Dawn post # 422 closing comment. Why aren’t we hearing more commentaries about that FACT. We christians just brush off insults and move on. What makes their religion so special that insults and parodies are unacceptable? Tolerance, moderation, understanding of other religions: totally alien concepts to the brainwashed muslim extremist.
The moderate muslims are, in some cases, denouncing their violent brethren, but the world’s media moguls refuse to make it front page news. Plus, I’m fairly certain, that a lot of moderate muslims are afraid they’ll get blown up/killed as apostates.
Amd we have our own “famous folks” like Rosie O’Donnell saying that extremist christians are no worse than extremist muslims. So what!? We admit this in our history books when we explain the purpose and intent of the crusades. But that was then, this is now! The muslims WANT to bury the hatchet… between our eyes!
We have got to stop the politcal correctness ham-stringing that’s preventing us from taking this battle to the level it needs to be fought. As mentioned above, these vermin DO NOT play by any rules. How many of our troops captured/killed by the muslims extremists were treated respectfully and humanely ACCORDING TO THE TERMS OF THE GENEVA CONVENTION by their captors? NONE!!! Our troops were brutally TORTURED, MURDERED and their bodies DESECRATED by the enemy. Where has the outcry been the greatest? In America. Where has the cheering been the greatest? Three guesses and the first two don’t count.
My Dad always liked to say, “You don’t bite the hand that feeds you.” Well, I’m tired of the people that we have set free and protect to this day being the ungreatful wretches that they are. It’s time to take off the kid gloves and kick some muslim extremist buttocks. If we kill or injure any civilians in the execution of our missions, oh, well. We’ll say, “Sorry” and move on to the next target. Maybe the civilians will get the message after the first few attacks that we will not differentiate between neighborhoods and where the animals that we are after are hiding.
I swear, if I hear one more IDIOT cry foul and insist that we should take the moral high ground in the treatment of these extremists I think I’ll hurl. High ground is only useful in a ground war. Moral high ground simply places us in a position from which to fall. We need to be seen as the meanest, toughest SOBs on the planet that will kick your butt, then help you find the way to a better life. That’s what we did with the Germans and the Japanese. So far they been fairly mature with the assistance we gave them after WW II. Yeah, there’s still the UN vote nonsense, but, hey, who in the UN is on our side?
No, Big Jake. I will not go gently into that night. You can bet I’ll be clawing, kicking, and screaming all the way! What’s scary is between my screams all I hear are crickets. There are too few and far between of us that have a clue as to what is going on around us.
September 18, 2006 at 1:26 am
DJ–
There may be few and far between us that have a clue as to what is going on around us, but at least we are aware and most of us willing to fight for what we believe in.
And I do not think Big Jake was advocating in that poem to “go gently into the night”.
What I read was “Fight, Fight, Fight!”
September 18, 2006 at 3:05 am
Bravo DJ & Red Dawn -I had to post that poem in reference to the sad state of affairs that currently presents itself.
If a Christian with the Pope’s bona fides can not comment without provoking such a reaction ,how can there ever be a dialogue between the two religions.
I personally do not believe that an exchange of ideas or a religious discussion is what the Muslims are interested in.
VATICAN CITY (AFP) – A wave of protest from Muslims across the globe descended on the Vatican as the Islamic world denounced comments by Pope Benedict XVI linking Islam with violence.
In Germany, however, Chancellor Angela Merkel came to Benedict’s defence saying: “Those who criticize the pope misunderstand the intention of his speech, which was to call for dialogue between the religions.
“The pope clearly took a stand in favour of dialogue, which I personally support and consider necessary and urgent. What Benedict XVI was expressing was his absolute rejection without compromise of any use of violence in the name of religion.”
Most Muslims did not see things the same way.
In Gaza City, four small home-made bombs exploded near the oldest Christian church, although there were no casualties, and Palestinian prime minister Ismail Haniya slammed the pope’s comments saying: “These remarks go against the truth and touch the heart of our faith.
“The pope should revise his comments and stop attacking Islam, which is the religion of more than 1.5 billion people in the world,” he said after the main weekly Muslim prayers in a Gaza mosque.
In a complex speech in the German city of Regensburg on Tuesday, the German-born head of more than one billion Roman Catholics implicitly denounced links between Islam and violence particularly in regard to jihad, or “holy war”.
Quoting a 14th-century Byzantine emperor on Prophet Mohammed, founder of the Muslim faith, the pope said: “He said, I quote, ‘Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'”
The pope’s official spokesman said later Benedict respected Islam but rejected violence motivated by religion. The explanation, however, failed to quell Muslims’ fury.
The Pakistani parliament unanimously passed a resolution demanding the pope “retract his remarks in the interest of harmony between religions.
“The derogatory remarks of the pope about the philosophy of jihad and Prophet Mohammed have injured sentiments across the Muslim world and pose the danger of spreading acrimony among the religions,” the resolution said.
The comments also stirred anger in India where the chairman of the National Commission for Minorities, Hamid Ansari, said: “The language used by the pope sounds like that of his 12th century counterpart who ordered the crusades.”
The head of the Islamic Society of North America made the same parallel.
“If we want to sit down and compare the history of violence committed in the name of the Catholic Church and violence committed in the name of Islam, that would take a long time,” Ingrid Mattson said.
“We have 500 years of inquisition, the counter-reformation, the crusades… All religions have been used for violence. None has been excluded, including Judaism,” she continued.
The Muslim Brotherhood, the leading opposition force in the Egyptian parliament, said the pope’s speech was more serious than the cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed whose publication in European newspapers caused outrage among many Muslims earlier this year.
“I foresee an extreme reaction to the pope’s words, which harm Islam more than the cartoons because they come from a leader who represents millions of people and not just from a journalist,” said a senior official of the group, Abdel Moneim Abul Futuh.
The pope’s speech also caused anger in Turkey, the destination of his next foreign trip in November.
The head of Turkey’s state-run religious affairs directorate, Ali Bardakoglu, described the remarks as “full of enmity and grudge” and said he should not come to Turkey.
In Iran, a top hardline cleric, Ahmad Khatami, said: “It is a pity that the leader of the world’s Christians is so uninformed about Islam and speaks so rudely.”
A powerful Sunni cleric in Iraq urged the government to expel the Vatican’s representative over the comments.
And in Britain the Ramadan Foundation compared the pope unfavourably to his predecessor John Paul II.
“The late pope John Paul II spent over 25 years to build bridges and links with the Muslim community. He showed the world that its perception of Islam was false and that we are peace-loving people,” it said.
In contrast, the British Catholic Church explained that the pope’s comments were trying to reinforce his message that the world must learn from its past mistakes and learn to live with respect for each others’ identity.
“Benedict has made clear … that Christianity as he sees it is based on love for all humanity, whatever religion,” the church said.
September 18, 2006 at 3:54 am
• Pope Benedict XVI, Islam and ‘Holy War
Much of the Regensburg address was a meditation on faith and reason, the roots of religiously inspired violence and the need for believers to see God as a figure of love. Roughly put, his argument was this: to Benedict, Islam’s conception of God so stresses God’s will that God can be understood to command the irrational——————————–
For the pope, the Christian encounter with the classical world married faith and reason and thereby precluded, in principle, such misunderstandings of the nature of the God of Abraham, a nature that is, according to this argument, rooted in love and reason, not the will to dominance. Seen in such a light, “jihad,” which means “struggle,” can too easily be taken literally (as a call to violence against others) rather than figuratively (as many Muslim scholars argue it should be).
In the stormy aftermath of the address—on Saturday two churches in the West Bank were bombed—the Vatican argued that the real point of the lecture was to be found in this sentence: “A reason which is deaf to the divine and which relegates religion into the realm of subcultures,” Benedict said, “is incapable of entering into the dialogue of cultures.” In a post-Regensburg statement, Paul Cardinal Poupard, president of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, said, “Readers will find that this central theme is far more important than the introductory citation of the Emperor Manuel II …”
Then why did Benedict quote the emperor in the first place? The most likely answer is that, no matter what the Vatican says now, the pope believes in having what the Catholic theologian and papal biographer George Weigel calls “a hard-headed conversation” about the role of faith in the life of the world. “He knew exactly what he was doing,” says Weigel. “He is saying that irrational violence is displeasing to God. The question Benedict is putting on the table is: ‘Does a significant part of Islam have the capacity to be self-critical?’ ”
Finding a way for the children of Abraham to live together in something approaching peace a perennial challenge, and Benedict understands that. “We must seek paths of reconciliation and learn to live with respect for each other’s identity,” he told a Muslim audience in Cologne last year. There was no such language at Regensburg. He did say Manuel II’s words were “startlingly brusque,” and made certain the audience understood he was reading a quotation, but the pope must have known his words would carry. And by speaking of jihad without alluding to Christianity’s dark history of violence in the name of God—the Crusades, forced conversions, pogroms, the Inquisition—Benedict seemed to be denouncing Islam while failing to acknowledge that any religion, including his own, can be manipulated and perverted to evil ends. “It is very hard to construe the pope’s remarks in a benign way,” says William A. Graham, the dean of the Harvard Divinity School. “Historically, there is no more basis for arguing that Islam is irrational than there is for arguing the same about Christianity or Judaism. In all three you can find tremendous discussion about revelation and reason, and there are people in all three who have landed outside the rational. Islam has bloody borders right now, but Christianity has certainly been bloody, as has Judaism in its more extreme forms.”
Two years before he became pope, Benedict published a book entitled “Truth and Tolerance,” in which he wrote that “religion demands the making of distinctions, distinctions between different forms of religion and distinctions within a religion itself, so as to find the way to its higher points.” One of the pities of Regensburg is that he made no such distinctions about Islam.
Is the ideology of hate that fuels Al Qaeda and its fellow travelers evil? Yes, it is, and too few Muslim leaders have spoken out against it in compelling and memorable terms. An Islamic reformation in which the young are educated to understand faith through critical thinking would, one hopes, push the forces of violence ever farther to the margins. History offers some consolation. “Islam spread far more thoroughly by proselytizing than by the sword,” says Graham. And the tradition most ruthlessly excluded in the first few centuries of the faith was one devoted to extreme violence, the Kharijites.
Going forward, the pope could usefully consult the words of another powerful Christian leader: “And given that Islam and Christianity worship the one God, Creator of heaven and earth, there is ample room for agreement and cooperation between them,” the leader said three months after September 11. “A clash ensues only when Islam or Christianity is misconstrued or manipulated for political or ideological ends.” The leader? John Paul II.
With Edward Pentin in Rome
Update: Pope Benedict XVI said Sunday that he was “deeply sorry” about the angry reaction to his recent remarks about Islam, which he said came from a text that didn’t reflect his personal opinion. “These [words] were in fact a quotation from a medieval text which do not in any way express my personal thought,” Benedict told pilgrims at his summer palace of Castel Gandolfo, outside Rome, according to a report by The Associated Press.
© 2006 Newsweek
September 18, 2006 at 2:13 pm
Re: The Pope’s comments. It doesn’t matter what is said, when it is said, or where it is said by whomever. ANYTHING remotely negative is taken out of context by the muslim extremists to fan the embers of discontent, thus trying to ignite a war against the infidels. They WANT to fight. They WANT to die. They WANT to bring about the new messiah. What they NEED is some education.
Something I mentioned in a previous post. The average Arab is uneducated and has little knowledge/experience with which to compare what he/she hears from their leaders, religious or otherwise. Like sheep, they are easily led down the path that is desired by their “shepherd.” But, as I also said, education is something that the leaders fear, so they do their best to limit the flock’s exposure to the outside world.
On another subject: My wife made an excellent suggestion when we last spoke. We need to insist that the Geneva Convention meet to develop guidelines as to how to deal with terrorists. The fact that the terrorists have no central affiliation with a country, government, flag, formal military, uniform, etc, needs to be addressed. If the entire world objects to our treatment of the terrorist
detainees to obtain viable counter-terrorist information, then the entire world should participate in the forum and establish the protocols to deal with such matters.
However, instead of giving them rights as criminals, we should establish an “open season” on their kind that would make their form of protest extremely unpleasant and hazardous to their health. I say hunt them down relentlessly and kill them like the mad dogs that they are, no matter what nationality, religion, or race.
And to the media: do not print stories of the terrorists’ atrocities or events. Treat them as the spoiled brats that they are: do not give them ANY recognition for their behavior. In the media the saying goes, “If it bleeds, it leads.” Fine, use that to OUR advantage. ANY terrorist killed will be on the FRONT PAGE with a note to their comrades, “This, too, will happen to you if you continue to follow your leadership. Lay down your weapons, surrender, and denounce violence against innocent civilians.”
To our governing parties: stop the bickering and political posturing! You are only showing the terrorists that we are divided, thus unfocused in our objective to achieve the goal of eliminating extremist islamic terrorists from influence and power. We don’t need to be “Fortress America,” but we DO need to tighten up on who comes in and for how long. We DO need the monitoring programs to watch suspects THAT ARE NOT AMERICAN CITIZENS, THEREFORE THAT HAVE NO RIGHTS to protect those of us that ARE citizens. We DO need to stop ignoring the “500 lb gorilla in the living room” and start putting the blame on the ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS and screen ANYONE of middle-eastern heritage until they say, “Hey! we’ve had enough of being blamed by the bad element in our culture” and clean up their own “back yard.”
To the muslims: act civilized and you will be treated accordingly. It’s time to join the 21st century. That behavior includes accepting that others around you will have other faiths and beliefs (or none at all), that whatever power and glory your culture had in the past IS PAST, and that you will be judged on your present actions, good and bad. How we perceive and relate to you is how you present yourselves. If you insist on remaining firmly entrenched in a by-gone era, you will be bypassed by the world. Like it or not, we now live in a world run by a market economy. Your religious leaders realize this and are frantically trying to hold back the tide. They will fail. Just as in our country, there will be “pockets of resistance” that will isolate themselves from reality. That is their right. If you need an oppressive doctrine to keep in line, then I feel sorry for you that you will never know the joys of a “free” life. Please try to help your brethren see the error of their ways. Violence is a poor solution for any disagreement, however, when one refuses to see that he/she is in error, then there are times when violence is the only option. So, with that in mind, as we say here in America, “The ball is in your court.” That means, do something about your extremist brethren, make it public and loud, make it heard around the world, and be truthful about it.
September 23, 2006 at 10:39 am
“There comes a time..
“…when all the cosmic tumblers
have clicked into place…
“…and the universe
opens itself up for a few seconds…
“…to show you what’s possible.”
September 24, 2006 at 3:51 am
Big Jake: I’m trying to get on to your new forum, and for the life of me, I can’t do it. The page keeps coming up that it cannot displayed………would you please tell me how I can correct this problem..I really miss all your comentaries..you’re all so smart.
Thanks
September 24, 2006 at 4:54 pm
angel:
contact the coordinator Red Dawn
emailto:eyes.heart.truth@hotmail.com
Glad to have you aboard!
September 24, 2006 at 5:17 pm
6/27/2005 Clip No. 753
Coptic Priest Zakariya Boutrus Demands to Strike Out Verses from the Koran and Demands an Official Apology from Muslim Governments to Christians
The following are excerpts from an interview with Coptic priest Zakariya Boutrus which aired on June 27, 2005 on Al-Hayat TV.
Boutrus: I live in a country (the US) that respects freedom of speech. I exercise my freedom of speech and talk, and no one can deny my free will. Gone are the days of the sharp sword that cut off the tongues of our people and forefathers to prevent them from speaking in the Coptic language. Gone are the days people’s heads would be chopped off if they did not convert to Islam.
Interviewer: What should the Muslims do to make you stop saying these things?
Boutrus: My demands involve ten important issues. Let’s call it ten demands. The first demand… They are not for my sake, but for the sake of truth, belief, and Jesus.
First, striking out all the Koranic verses that deny the divinity of Jesus and the revelation of God in him.
Second, acknowledging that Jesus is the spirit and word of God, as they truly believe, without hiding this fact.
Third, striking out the Koranic verses and Hadiths that incite to kill Christians, like in the Al-Tawba chapter, v.29: “Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in Judgment Day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they follow the religion of truth” – that is, Islam. Among whom? “Among the People of the Book.”
Interviewer: Who are…
Boutrus: The Christians and Jews. “Until they pay the Jizya poll tax in submission.” This is murder.
Number four, striking out the Koranic verses and Hadiths that incite to terrorism and oppression in all their forms.
Interviewer: What do you mean by terrorism and oppression?
Boutrus: Terrorism – “Urge the believers to fight,” and the Hadith: “I was commanded to fight people until they say: ‘There is no God but Allah’.” All this is terrorism and murder.
Number six: Stopping the attack on Jesus and the Holy Book in mosques and in all the media.
Number seven: Giving people and Muslims the freedom of… You may ask what do I care about the Muslims? No! They must have the freedom to choose their religion and the freedom to express their belief.
Number eight: To abolish the punishment for apostasy, to stop torturing people who convert to Christianity, and to stop imprisoning or even killing them.
Number nine: Formal apologies must be made by leaders throughout the Arab world for the murder of Christians in countries invaded by Islam.
Number ten: Leaders throughout the Arab world should make formal apologies for the insults directed against our faith throughout Islamic history.
The viewers may say, “Is this priest crazy, or what? These demands could only be made by an insane man… To strike out Koranic verses… Does this make any sense? What is he going on about?” OK, if you cannot change (the Koran), why are you asking us to change our beliefs? Why do you demand that we say what you say, or else – the sword?
(Al-Halabi) says: “If the Prophet wanted an available woman…” – in other words, an unmarried woman, a widow, or a single woman – “…he was allowed to enter her…” I don’t like to use the word i-n-t-e-r-c-o-u-r-s-e. “…without her guardian and without witnesses…” Without witnesses. “…and against her will.” Against her will. “If he desired a married woman, her husband had to divorce her for him. And if he desired a servant-girl, her master had to give her to him. He can even marry off the woman to whoever he wants, against her will.”
Interviewer: We know that the Prophet is allowed what others are not.
Boutrus: Why? Is he made of different stuff than the rest of mankind?
September 24, 2006 at 5:59 pm
Now I’ve heard everything ! Can you believe this baloney being force-fed on arab media?
4/15/2005 Clip No. 647
Sheik Ibrahim Mudeiris in a PA Friday Sermon: Muslim Prisoners Are Forced to Convert to Christianity in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Palestine
The following are excerpts from the Friday sermon in Gaze by Sheik Ibrahim Mudeiris that aired on Palestinian Authority TV on April 15, 2005
Mudeiris: Muslims prisoners are subject to force conversion to Christianity. They are forced to abandon their faith today, as in the past. Muslim prisoners are forced to curse Muhammad. They are forced to curse the religion of Allah. They are forced to curse God. Haven’t you heard about our prisoners in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, and throughout the world… They are oppressed and incarcerated, and then they are offered conversion to Christianity. This is an old-new policy of heresy. Abdallah bin Huzafa Al-Sahmi, categorically refused. The emperor said to him: “We will put you in boiling oil.” He said: “I don’t care.” He was shown two Muslims who had been placed him in boiling oil until their flesh came off their bones. But the emperor’s deeds were not as bad as those of his successors, who preach freedom and democracy in this era. By Allah, what this emperor did, when he put the Muslims in boiling oil, is a thousand times better than what their soldiers are doing today to our wives and daughters in Iraq, Palestine, Guantanamo, and Abu Ghureib.
September 24, 2006 at 9:00 pm
Zealot:
JETS 28-20 OVER Bills Ouch!
September 24, 2006 at 10:42 pm
I know!!! I was thinking about you when I was watching the game. Wondering if you were watching it, too. I thought the Bills had it in the bag in the begining. The bums let me down again! I’m even starting to ask myself why I stick with them. But I’m a die hard. They need at least one loyal fan don’t you think????
September 24, 2006 at 11:29 pm
Zealot:
I know how you feel. I’ve lived and died with the Jets for 38 years. I remember one Jets-Bills game in 1973 that O.J.ran for over 100 yards and single handedly “murdered” the entire team.
September 27, 2006 at 2:18 am
“Republic. I like the sound of the word. It means people can live free, talk free. Go or come, buy or sell, be drunk or sober, however they choose. Some words give ya a feeling. Republic is one of those words that makes me tight in the throat. The same tightness a man gets when his baby takes his first step, or his first baby shaves, makes his first sound like a man. Some words can give ya a feeling that makes your heart warm. Republic is one of those words.”
John Wayne -as Davy Crockett in The Alamo
September 27, 2006 at 12:31 pm
I know what you mean. My daughter made her “first adult sound” yesterday. She disagreed with something she read in a teen magazine and wrote in to the publisher to complain about it. What a girl!
September 29, 2006 at 4:47 am
read post #404 and prepare for battle. This is not a drill. Repeat -This is not a drill!
What about Time Travel?
From: http://www.stargods.org/TimeTravel.htm
The way one “time travels” is through the hyper space which is called the forth dimension. This is the frequency range of the demons and their habitation. Breaking the dimension barrier is easy and has been broken. Teleporting also involves going through the hyper space of the 4th dimension. Again you are forced to enter the abode of the demons and fallen angels. There many doctors that will tell you of seeing strange entities from being around electromagnetic scanning and imaging. Apparently the electromagnetic field can punch a hole through to the 4th dimension.
Us humans can only see light and we can only see 10% of all the matter in the universe with our eyes. The rest is “dark matter” which emits NO light frequencies. Therefore demons and the kingdom of Satan are invisible to us.
More and more we are hearing about Quantum Physics and the possibility of time travel. The reason you are seeing more information come out and more time travel documentaries is because the veil that separates us from the spirits will be torn down after the rapture. It will be a time when the unseen kingdom of satan, and the kingdom of man will merge and become one empire under Lucifer. People do not have a clue as to what is coming! Even most Christians remain willfully ignorant.
The governing fallen angels do not need their subjects going into a deep culture shock when the spiritual curtain comes down. For the first time the invisible will become visible! So in order to condition and prepare the public, it has to come forward into the conscience mind of man first. Magazines produce articles while TV pumps out the usual talk shows and documentaries.
In ancient times the fallen angels gave man secret knowledge in exchange for worship and human sacrifices. Now it is done in private through secret societies of Satan. When the antichrist system comes, the masses of people will be given hidden technology to improve their lives in exchange for advanced knowledge and technology. What is done in secret today will be done in the open soon. When the Beast comes he will not tempt mankind to to worship him, he will demand it! He will enforce a mark on all mankind and those that do not receive it will be tortured and executed.
In the end the fallen will use teleportation to come into our world and the human elite into theirs. Soon the curtain that divides our world and the world of the demons will be pulled wide open for the kingdom of Satan to become all powerfull
September 29, 2006 at 2:03 pm
Big Jake…….You are freaking me out! I am a christian and I do believe in demons but I never have heard anything like this before!! It gives me chills…I sure don’t want any of these evil beings hanging around me! Where did you get this information? It’s interesting, and part of me wants to read more about it, but tapping into that world really creeps me out. It attracts me for some reason, but at the same time it scares me. I don’t want them coming after me!! I just don’t want to be home alone some time and start imagining these spirits will toy with me. I DO BELIEVE IN GHOSTS…I DO BELEIVE IN GHOSTS!!!
September 30, 2006 at 5:11 am
Angel,
It gives me the creeps ,too. The Devil mimics and is envious of our relationship with God. Satan wants to be worshiped as a god. This leads to the danger to us of demonic possession.
Go to my post #293 . I believe that all Christians should affirmatively give their heart to Jesus Christ.
Don’t forget to put on the Armor of God for protection and in preparation for the battle with evil forces.
http://www.faithflashes.com/armor2.html
On Sunday April 24th 1994, Pope John Paul II recommended this prayer be used by all Catholics as a prayer for the Church when he said:
‘”May prayer strengthen us for the spiritual battle we are told about in the Letter to the Ephesians: ‘Draw strength from the Lord and from His mighty power’ (Ephesians 6:10). The Book of Revelation refers to this same battle, recalling before our eyes the image of St. Michael the Archangel (Revelation 12:7). Pope Leo XIII certainly had a very vivid recollection of this scene when, at the end of the last century, he introduced a special prayer to St. Michael throughout the Church. Although this prayer is no longer recited at the end of Mass, I ask everyone not to forget it and to recite it to obtain help in the battle against forces of darkness and against the spirit of this world.”‘
Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host –
by the Divine Power of God –
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen.
The Spirit of Babylon
Chuck Pierce, another friend and internationally trusted prophet connected our desperate condition to the war in Iraq: “the spirit of Babylon is slapping us around.” Iraq is modern day Babylon. Babylon means “confusion,” which is obviously one of the results of this spiritual war. America’s armies had no problem taking out Saddam’s physical army, but we are now dealing with an ancient principality, the spirit of Babylon, which cannot be defeated with natural weapons and strategies. This spirit is currently, though I believe it not be permanently, prevailing against us. As previously stated, the symptoms of confusion and disarray can be seen in the church, on our president and in the nation in general.
A further result of all this on our president is political disfavor. He has one of the most unfavorable performance ratings of any president in history, ranking down with Nixon during Watergate.
September 30, 2006 at 11:20 am
I gave my heart to Jesus over 30 years ago. I find it hard to believe that since the Holy Spirit dwells in me, that anything “unholy” could take up residence inside of me…”this leads to the danger to us of demon possession”. I believe satan is a very real foe, but I also believe he only has as much power as you personally give him. I do fear the spirit world, mainly because of Hollywood and all the freaky and weird movies I’ve seen over the years. (I’ll give you a little hint, tho. Years ago while watching one of those demon possessed movies, something went wrong with the sound for a few minutes. The picture was still on, but no sound. The movie didn’t seem that scary. We adjusted the VCR and fixed the sound, and rewound the film…the SOUND,(the MUSIC) along WITH the picture is what made the movie so scary!!) Anyway, I don’t think I could ever become possessed, but I do think the devil could scare me to death with his antics. Do you agree? If so, tell me where I’m wrong.
September 30, 2006 at 11:23 am
Big Jake…me again..forgot something..I was interested where you got your information about the electromagnetic field punching a hole into the 4th dimension.
A while ago you suggested the movie Frequency to another person. Do you agree with that movie? That that actually happens?
October 1, 2006 at 1:25 am
Angel: you are protected from Satan by being Baptized and Confirmed. You have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour and you have rejected Satan, all his works and empty promises. You have become a Temple of the Holy Spirit . If the Holy Spirit dwells within you, no demon spirit can.
By giving your heart to Jesus you further reaffirm your love for him.
A hymn from my childhood comes to mind:
Soul of my saviour, sanctify my breast,
body of Christ, be thou my saving guest,
blood of my saviour, bathe me in thy tide,
wash me with water flowing from thy side.
Strength and protection may thy passion be,
0 blessed Jesus, hear and answer me;
deep in thy wounds, Lord, hide and shelter me,
so shall I never, never part from thee.
Guard and defend me from the foe malign,
in death’s dread moments make me only thine;
call me and bid me come to thee on high
where I may praise thee with thy saints for ay.
Latin, 14th Century Translation
Regarding Frequency, solar flares affected the electromagnetic fields surrounding the earth and disrupted radio transmissions in such a way that a son was able to contact his father who had died 30 years before. Whether it actually can happen ,I don’t know. But theoretically , time travel is possible according to Albert Einstein and Carl Sagan.
Sagan on Time Travel
Carl Sagan, the astronomer, Pulitzer Prize-winning author, and legendary popularizer of science, gave this interview during the making of “Time Travel.” True to form, he discusses arcane aspects of the field—from how you define time to what it might look like inside a wormhole—with flair and a refreshing dash of humor. Sagan was David Duncan Professor of Astronomy and Space Sciences and director of the Laboratory for Planetary Studies at Cornell University when he died in 1996.
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NOVA: Let’s start with the crux of the matter. What for you is time?
Sagan: Ever since St. Augustine, people have wrestled with this, and there are all sorts of things it isn’t. It isn’t a flow of something, because what does it flow past? We use time to measure flow. How could we use time to measure time? We are stuck in it, each of us time travels into the future, one year, every year. None of us to any significant precision does otherwise. If we could travel close to the speed of light, then we could travel further into the future in a given amount of time. It is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition.
NOVA: Do you think that backwards time travel will ever be possible?
Hear Sagan via RealAudio
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Sagan: Such questions are purely a matter of evidence, and if the evidence is inconsistent or insufficient, then we withhold judgment until there is better evidence. Right now we’re in one of those classic, wonderfully evocative moments in science when we don’t know, when there are those on both sides of the debate, and when what is at stake is very mystifying and very profound.
If we could travel into the past, it’s mind-boggling what would be possible. For one thing, history would become an experimental science, which it certainly isn’t today. The possible insights into our own past and nature and origins would be dazzling. For another, we would be facing the deep paradoxes of interfering with the scheme of causality that has led to our own time and ourselves. I have no idea whether it’s possible, but it’s certainly worth exploring.
NOVA: Would you like it to be possible?
Hear Sagan via RealAudio
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Sagan: I have mixed feelings. The explorer and experimentalist in me would very much like it to be possible. But the idea that going into the past could wipe me out so that I would have never lived is somewhat disquieting.
NOVA: On that note, can you describe the “grandfather paradox?”
Hear Sagan via RealAudio
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Sagan: The grandfather paradox is a very simple, science-fiction-based apparent inconsistency at the very heart of the idea of time travel into the past. It’s very simply that you travel into the past and murder your own grandfather before he sires your mother or your father, and where does that then leave you? Do you instantly pop out of existence because you were never made? Or are you in a new causality scheme in which, since you are there you are there, and the events in the future leading to your adult life are now very different? The heart of the paradox is the apparent existence of you, the murderer of your own grandfather, when the very act of you murdering your own grandfather eliminates the possibility of you ever coming into existence.
Among the claimed solutions are that you can’t murder your grandfather. You shoot him, but at the critical moment he bends over to tie his shoelace, or the gun jams, or somehow nature contrives to prevent the act that interrupts the causality scheme leading to your own existence.
NOVA: Do you find it easy to believe the world might work that way—that is, self-consistently—or do you think it’s more likely that that there are parallel universes?
Hear Sagan via RealAudio
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Sagan: It’s still somewhat of a heretical ideal to suggest that every interference with an event in the past leads to a fork, a branch in causality. You have two equally valid universes: one, the one that we all know and love, and the other, which is brought about by the act of time travel. I know the idea of the universe having to work out a self-consistent causality is appealing to a great many physicists, but I don’t find the argument for it so compelling. I think inconsistencies might very well be consistent with the universe.
NOVA: As a physicist, what do you make of Stephen Hawking’s chronological protection conjecture [which holds that the laws of physics disallow time machines]?
Hear Sagan via RealAudio
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Sagan: There have been some toy experiments in which, at just the moment that the time machine is actuated, the universe conspires to blow it up, which has led Hawking and others to conclude that nature will contrive it so that time travel never in fact occurs. But no one actually knows that this is the case, and it cannot be known until we have a full theory of quantum gravity, which we do not seem to be on the verge of yet.
One of Hawking’s arguments in the conjecture is that we are not awash in thousands of time travelers from the future, and therefore time travel is impossible. This argument I find very dubious, and it reminds me very much of the argument that there cannot be intelligences elsewhere in space, because otherwise the Earth would be awash in aliens. I can think half a dozen ways in which we could not be awash in time travelers, and still time travel is possible.
NOVA: Such as?
Hear Sagan via RealAudio
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Sagan: First of all, it might be that you can build a time machine to go into the future, but not into the past, and we don’t know about it because we haven’t yet invented that time machine. Secondly, it might be that time travel into the past is possible, but they haven’t gotten to our time yet, they’re very far in the future and the further back in time you go, the more expensive it is. Thirdly, maybe backward time travel is possible, but only up to the moment that time travel is invented. We haven’t invented it yet, so they can’t come to us. They can come to as far back as whatever it would be, say A.D. 2300, but not further back in time.
Then there’s the possibility that they’re here alright, but we don’t see them. They have perfect invisibility cloaks or something. If they have such highly developed technology, then why not? Then there’s the possibility that they’re here and we do see them, but we call them something else—UFOs or ghosts or hobgoblins or fairies or something like that. Finally, there’s the possibility that time travel is perfectly possible, but it requires a great advance in our technology, and human civilization will destroy itself before time travelers invent it.
I’m sure there are other possibilities as well, but if you just think of that range of possibilities, I don’t think the fact that we’re not obviously being visited by time travelers shows that time travel is impossible.
NOVA: How is the speed of light connected to time travel?
Hear Sagan via RealAudio
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Sagan: A profound consequence of Einstein’s special theory of relativity is that no material object can travel as fast as light. It is forbidden. There is a commandment: Thou shalt not travel at the speed of light, and there’s nothing we can do to travel that fast.
The reason this is connected with time travel is because another consequence of special relativity is that time, as measured by the speeding space traveler, slows down compared to time as measured by a friend left home on Earth. This is sometimes described as the “twin paradox”: two identical twins, one of whom goes off on a voyage close to the speed of light, and the other one stays home. When the space-traveling twin returns home, he or she has aged only a little, while the twin who has remained at home has aged at the regular pace. So we have two identical twins who may be decades apart in age. Or maybe the traveling twin returns in the far future, if you go close enough to the speed of light, and everybody he knows, everybody he ever heard of has died, and it’s a very different civilization.
It’s an intriguing idea, and it underscores the fact that time travel into the indefinite future is consistent with the laws of nature. It’s only travel backwards in time that is the source of the debate and the tingling sensations that physicists and science-fiction readers delight in.
NOVA: In your novel Contact, your main character Eleanor Arroway travels through a wormhole. Can you describe a wormhole?
Hear Sagan via RealAudio
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Sagan: Let’s imagine that we live in a two-dimensional space. We wish to go from spot A to spot B. But A and B are so far apart that at the speed of light it would take much longer than a generational time or two to get there as measured back on world A. Instead, you have a kind of tunnel that goes through an otherwise inaccessible third dimension and connects A and B. You can go much faster through the tunnel, and so you get from A to B without covering the intervening space, which is somewhat mind-boggling but consistent with the laws of nature. And [the theoretical physicist] Kip Thorne found that if we imagine an indefinitely advanced technical civilization, such a wormhole is consistent with the laws of physics.
It’s very different from saying that we ourselves could construct such a wormhole. One of the basic ideas of how to do it is that there are fantastically minute wormholes that are forming and decaying all the time at the quantum level, and the idea is to grab one of those and keep it permanently open. Our high-energy particle accelerators don’t have enough energy to even detect the phenomenon at that scale, much less do anything like holding a wormhole open. But it did seem in principle possible, so I reconfigured the book so that Eleanor Arroway successfully makes it through the center of the galaxy via a wormhole.
NOVA: What do you think it would be like to travel through a wormhole?
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Sagan: Nobody really knows, but what Thorne has taught me is that say, for example, you were going through a wormhole from point A to point B. Suppose point B was in orbit around some bright star. The moment you were in the wormhole, near your point of origin A, you would see that star. And it would be very bright; it wouldn’t be a tiny point in the distance. On the other hand, if you look sideways, you would not see out of the wormhole, you would be in that fourth physical dimension. What the walls of the wormhole would be is deeply mysterious. And the possibility was also raised that if you looked backwards in the wormhole you would see the very place on world A that you had left. And that would be true even as you emerged out of the wormhole near the star B. You would see in space a kind of black sphere, in which would be an image of the place you had left on Earth, just floating in the blackness of space. Very Alice in Wonderland.
NOVA: Your inquiries about space travel for Contact sparked a whole new direction in research on time travel. How does that make you feel?
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Sagan: I find it marvellous, I mean literally marvellous, full of marvel, that this innocent inquiry in the context of writing a science-fiction novel has sparked a whole field of physics and dozens of scientific papers by some of the best physicists in the world. I’m so pleased to have played this catalytic role not just in fast spaceflight but in the idea of time travel.
NOVA: How do you feel being responsible for bringing time travel perhaps a step closer?
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Sagan: I don’t know that I’ve brought time travel a step closer. If anyone has it’s Kip Thorne. But maybe the joint effort of all those involved in this debate has at least increased the respectability of serious consideration of the possibility of time travel. As a youngster who was fascinated by the possibility of time travel in the science-fiction novels of H.G. Wells, Robert Heinlein, and others, to be in any way involved in the possible actualization of time travel—well, it just brings goose bumps. Of course we’re not really at that stage; we don’t know that time travel is even possible, and if it is, we certainly haven’t developed the time machine. But it’s a stunning fact that we have now reached a stage in our understanding of nature where this is even a bare possibility.
Sagan on Time Travel | Traveling Through Time
Timespeak | Think Like Einstein | Resources
Teacher’s Guide | Transcript | Site Map
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regarding electro-magnetic fields punching holes into the 4th dimension – here is the hyper link again
http://www.stargods.org/TimeTravel.htm
October 1, 2006 at 7:51 pm
Big Jake,
Why must one be baptized in order to receive Christ? My mother was nearly drowned by a travelling minister when she was nine. He held her under water at a pond on my grandparents’ property. I think the man was an evil bastard for keeping her under that water as her breath ran out. She never had my brothers or I baptized. I do not feel condemned.
October 1, 2006 at 11:33 pm
Americanwoman: I don’t want to get into any doctrinal battles here, but I will tell you what the Bible says concerning this, and it says that you DON’T have to be baptized or confirmed. When Christ was dieing on the cross the thief next to him asked him to remember him when he entered into His kingdom. Christ answered him by saying “TODAY thou shalt be with me in Paradise..” Luke 23:43 He didn’t say, after you get baptised and confirmed you will be with me. It isn’t Christ PLUS “anything” to be saved…it is Christ alone! He takes our sins upon himself and pays the price FOR us. We can either choose this FREE gift or reject it and pay our own sin debt ourselves. If we had to do ANYTHING, Christ wouldn’t have had to go to the cross and the gift wouldn’t be FREE. “For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of GOD.” Ephesians 2:8 KJV
October 2, 2006 at 12:40 am
Americanwoman:
I’ll try to answer your question. Even though you were not baptized by water ,I believe you were Baptized by “Desire”. Please read below for a complete explanation,
I’m sorry that your mother had such a traumatic experience at Baptism. Please be aware that this is not the norm in any Christian Church. I believe that the Baptists still use total immersion ,but in most Christian Churches The Baptism Rite is performed by pouring some Holy Water over the Infant’s head during the ceremony with the infant being held by the Godparents.
6.Why Is Baptism Necessary For The Salvation Of All Men?
Baptism is necessary for the salvation of all men because Christ said: “Unless a man is born through water and the spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.” (JOHN 3:5).
Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, and no one who has not been baptized can enter heaven. From the time of our Lord this has been the constant and unequivocal teaching of the Church. The reason lies in the fact that only Baptism can remit original sin, and no one with the taint of sin – original or mortal – can enter into heaven, God’s holy home.
This doctrine on the necessity of Baptism for salvation is complemented by the dogmatic teaching of the Church which is formulated as “Outside the Church there is no salvation.” Baptism is the ordinary means of belonging to the true Church.
Is Baptism Of Water The Only Kind Of Baptism?
“Baptism of water”- is the ordinary means of Baptism, but there are two extraordinary means by which the remission of sin and the attainment of eternal salvation are possible.
Those who through no fault of their own, have not received the sacrament of Baptism can be saved through what is called Baptism of Blood or Baptism of Desire.
Baptism of Desire:
An unbaptized person receives the Baptism of Desire when he loves God above all things and desires to do all that is necessary for his salvation.
If someone believes and loves God above all things, is sorry for his sins, and ardently longs for Baptism when it is impossible to receive it, he is said to have received the Baptism of Desire.
Jesus promised.that whoever loves him will be loved by the Father (JOHN 14:21). No one can be pleasing to the Father unless he be in the state of grace. Consequently, one who sincerely loves God and wishes to do everything pleasing to him, whether he be baptized by water or not, will receive pardon for his sins, and obtain entrance into heaven.
In the final analysis, Baptism of Desire is the way of charity or the love of God. And so, it is a way open only to those who have reached the use of reason, because only these are capable of making an act of charity. One of the most eloquent examples of this excellent form of charity which could be said to be a forerunner of the Baptism of Desire, is the case of St. Dismas, the good thief.
Parents, on the other hand, cannot make this Baptism of Desire on behalf of their infant children. Fr. Connolly gives the following explanation:
“No matter how much parents may desire Baptism for their children, they cannot obtain for them Baptism of Desire. That is, they cannot make an act of charity on the child’s behalf. If the parents’ desire is a real one they will obviously have the child baptized as soon as possible, doing it themselves in case of danger of death.
“By an act of love of God – and this act belongs to the supernatural order, and made under the influence of an actual grace – a person is necessarily sorry for past sins and has to wish to do all that God wants and commands should be done in order to be saved. And so, this person desires, implicitly or explicitly, to be baptized, since this is the ordinary way of salvation set down by God’s providence.”
The Second Vatican Council states this constant doctrine of the Church, which in no way contradicts the Church’s stand on true ecumenism:
“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience-those too may achieve eternal salvation: Nor shall Divine Providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life.” (LG:16)
To summarize all that we have said so far, we can say that anyone who makes an act of love of God, and at the same time does not know, through no fault of his own (invincible ignorance), that Baptism is necessary for salvation, can be saved by Baptism of Desire.
Baptism of Blood:
An unbaptized person receives the Baptism of Blood when he suffers martyrdom for the faith.
Martyrdom means the patient acceptance of a violent death, or an assault, which, of its very nature is likely to lead to death, for the sake of Christ: defending some point of religion and teaching of Christ, giving witness to a particular Christian virtue, etc.
One who is unbaptized and loses his life for Christ or for some Christian virtue receives the Baptism of Blood. Our Lord promised: “He that shall lose his life for me, shall find it.” (MATTHEW 10:39).
The Holy Innocents of Bethlehem whom Herod slew out of his hatred for the Infant Jesus received the Baptism of Blood. The Church honors them with a feast on December 28. The case of the Holy Innocents is explained in the liturgy of the Mass of the feast with the following verse: that they died for Christ unknowingly, but still they gave testimony to the truth of our Faith, not by speaking but by dying (moriendo, non loquendo). From this we can also infer that the person who receives Baptism of Blood does not necessarily have to be an adult; not so with Baptism of Desire as we have seen earlier.
Obligation of Using the Ordinary Means of Baptism:
As the Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood are extraordinary means, they do not excuse from the obligation of making use of the ordinary means when available.
For this reason, one who has received that Baptism of Desire by an act of love or perfect contrition, is still bound to receive Baptism of Water if he is aware of it. In the same way, an unbaptized person being martyred for the Christian faith or some Christian virtue must be baptized by water if he survives.
October 2, 2006 at 12:50 am
Angel :
By the definition I just posted,Dismas ,the good thief, is a perfect example of “Baptism by Desire”.
But should he have survived , he should have been baptized by water as soon as possible.
October 2, 2006 at 1:29 am
ZEALOT :Bills 17-12 over Vikings BOOYAA!
Colts 31-28 over Jets BOOHOO!
October 2, 2006 at 9:08 am
Big Jake: Baptism is not to eliminate “original sin”. Original sin is a “church” teaching, not a “God” teaching. When Jesus was baptised, John didn’t pour a little bit of water over his head. He was IMMERSED. That immersion signified the Death, Burial and Resurrection he was about to go through and it wasn’t done because Jesus sinned, it was done as an example to His followers. Likewise, when we follow the example of Jesus Christ, and become baptised the same way HE did, we are identifying HIM as our Saviour and the ACT of Baptism signifies the Death of our old, sinful nature, (being laid in the water) the burying of our “OLD LIFE”, and the “raising up” to our NEW LIFE in Christ. Please read John Darby’s commentary, with which I personally agree: The Lord explains Himself. Two things were necessary-to be born of water, and of the Spirit. Water cleanses. And, spiritually, in his affections, heart, conscience, thoughts, actions, etc., man lives, and in practice is morally purified, through the application, by the power of the Spirit, of the word of God, which judges all things, and works in us livingly new thoughts and affections. This is the water; it is withal the death of the flesh. The true water which cleanses in a christian way came forth from the side of a dead Christ. He came by water and blood, in the power of cleansing and of expiation. He sanctifies the assembly by cleansing it through the washing of water by the word. “Ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.” It is therefore the mighty word of God which, since man must be born again in the principle and source of his moral being, judges, as being death, all that is of the flesh.
October 2, 2006 at 10:31 am
#448 Big Jake…my buddy and “older” bro… Yeahhhhhh! Go Bills!! Sorry about the Jets.
I still log on here but I haven’t been writing much. Miss you guys. I tried to get on the other forum, but couldn’t do it. Don’t know what’s wrong. But really, the truth is, I’ve been pretty busy in my spare time. Remember the girl I took to Niagra Falls? Well, I’ve been seeing her quite a bit. To say I’m attracted to her is an understatement. This girl is something else. She’s great looking, soft-spoken, kind. She’s a christian. We talk about everything. Sometimes for hours. I’ve never heard her swear and nothing seems to make her mad. She’s got really high values and she’s really smart. She’s nothing like anything I’ve come across before. She’s 29 and I’m 37. I could really fall for this girl and I hesitate because I can’t believe I could be this lucky twice. I look for things wrong with her and I can’t find anything. I don’t know what to think. I do know I think about her all the time and when I’m with her I don’t want to leave. I think she knows it too, but, she’s pretty cool about it. Just wondering, is your name really Jake? I probably shouldn’t do this, but I’m going to tell you my first name. It’s Zach. So, pray about me and this girl and say my name…just in case God doesn’t know who you’re taling about..HaHa..just kidding. Pray about Zach and Amy. She told me she doesn’t do anything before praying about it first. Hope this doesn’t sound like a corny blog. I’ve been pretty weird lately.
October 2, 2006 at 2:26 pm
Angel:
Please understand ,I am not a theologian.
My understanding of Christianity has been developed from my religious instruction,my independent reading,my life experiences, my meditation and my prayer life.
As a Roman Catholic my interpretation of the actual Baptism Rite may not be in congruance with that of other Christian denominations. There are basic Christian tenets common to all Christian denominations, the necessity of Baptism is one of them.
I believe that at the End TIMES there will be only one Christian Church encompassing ALL Christians. I believe that all Christians are my brothers and sisters in Christ.
As a Christian , I follow the tenets of the Christian Faith. It is more than a philosophy to me. If they tell me to eat Lima beans ,I will eat lima beans.
It pains me that there has been such inter-denominational bickering over the methodology
of worship. Our Lord was crucified and died for mankind and we Christians have crucified him again by our bickering throughout the ages.
Jesus said for us to “Love one another” . We haven’t done such a good job at it. We must do better.
I have posted here a definition of Original Sin. It is a Biblical concept. It’s interpretation is a Church teaching. Baptism signifies the rebirth through Christ Jesus
for us who were dead in sin and now live in Christ.
Original Sin, Imputation of Adam’s Sin
“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned,” (Rom. 5:12).
Yet the fall is not simply a question of rational deduction. It is a point of divine revelation. It refers to what we call “original sin.” Original sin does not refer primarily to the first or original sin committed by Adam and Eve. Original sin refers to the results of the first sin – the corruption of the human race. Original sin refers to the fallen condition in which we are born.
“By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.”
The following message was delivered by John MacArthur Jr., of Grace Community Church in Panorama City, California. It was transcribed from the tape: GC 80-190, “Baptism: A Matter of Obedience.” A copy of the tape can be obtained by writing, Word of Grace, P.O. Box 4000, Panorama City, CA 91412 or by dialing toll free 1-800-55-GRACE.
I have also posted the following essay regarding Baptism by John MacArthur. Mr MacArthur, I believe gets a little extreme but does give an excellent explanation of Baptism in the different Christian denominations.
Baptism: A Matter of Obedience
by
John MacArthur
Copyright 1998
All Rights Reserved
I was flying across the country this week—a long flight—all the way to the east coast and the Lord always makes things serendipitous, always has a surprise or two; I was sitting next to a man who eventually took out a Bible and started reading it and as he was reading it, I said to him, “That’s a Bible you’ve got there.” He said, “It is,” and I said, “Do you understand what you’re reading?” I thought I’d just play Philip for a while. I said, “Do you understand what you’re reading?” and he said, “Well, some of it. I know one thing: that there are many ways to God.” I said, “Keep reading. You’re not done yet.” He said, “Well, It’s kind of hard to understand.” I said, “Well, would you like to be able to understand the Bible?” and he said, “I really want to be able to understand the Bible—I really do.” So, I took out my MacArthur Study Bible and I opened this thing and he said, “This has all the answers!” Anyway, I had the opportunity to expose him to the gospel and I’m going to send him one of those Bibles.
But, what a wonderful thing the Lord does in just kind of placing the right people in the right place at the right time and I’m always grateful for that. This is the right place and the right time for you, this morning, because I have a word from the Lord for you—it’s from the Scriptures and it’s on the subject of baptism. Now, as a faithful pastor, I am duty-bound to speak on this subject; if I don’t, I’d be unfaithful to the Lord who commands us to be baptized and if we are to be faithful under-shepherds, we have to bring the issue to the people. It’s been a number of years since I addressed the subject; it’s been—in fact—somewhere between 5 and 10 years since I’ve addressed this subject. I confess to a certain amount of unfaithfulness in that regard.
This is not something that we can overlook or pass by lightly. It is not a particularly popular subject today—it’s not of great interest in the evangelical community; it’s been years since I’ve seen any new book written on baptism or any book emphasizing baptism or any series of messages or any preacher or teacher emphasizing baptism. I never hear about it on the radio—I never hear about it on Christian radio, Christian television programs, I never see a baptism on Christian television programs, though you have a lot of services, you rarely, if ever, see a baptismal service. The interest in baptism has sort of gone away—sad to say, in many cases.
And, we have a largely unbaptized church which includes some of you. I don’t mean this church, I mean the church in general. It’s amazing how many people who proclaim Christ and confess Christ, have never been properly baptized. Now, probably the greatest number of people who call themselves Christians have never been baptized, according to New Testament baptism. It may well be that the majority of those who call themselves Christians have not been properly baptized. It’s not as if it’s not clear about what baptism is and how it is to be done—it is clear. It’s just that there has been a sort of an indifference to that very, very important matter. I would like to, if I can, put an end to that indifference this morning, if that, in fact, is the case.
There are, no doubt, many of you here this morning who have confessed Christ as Lord and Savior and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, but you’ve never been baptized. There are some of you, who maybe have never seen a baptismal service. We have one here every Sunday night, but you’re here in the morning and not at night and you may not have seen one or maybe only a few. May I be so bold as to suggest that a failure to be obedient in the matter of baptism, to take baptism seriously is at the root of some of the immense problems in people’s lives and in the church in general because it allows the church to fill up with people who are unfaithful to the simplest commands of the Lord and of His Word and that’s serious.
When Jesus said, “Go unto all the world and make disciples, baptizing them…,” He was giving a command to the apostles and to the church, saying: go out there, evangelize, make disciples, baptizing them, and teaching them to observe whatsoever things I have commanded you. The church then, is commissioned, in the great commission, to do the work of baptizing. It’s amazing to me, you see massive evangelistic crusades—these massive crowds of people, these huge crowds of people, and, supposedly, people coming to Christ—never do you see a baptism. Never is there a baptism at such events. And yet, on the day of Pentecost, three thousand people believed and three thousand people were baptized, when the church began. When the Holy Spirit spoke in Acts 2:38, speaking through Peter, “Repent and be baptized,” He gave a command there to the individual who repents and believes.
So, the church is commanded to baptize—the individual is commanded to be baptized. There is really no lack of clarity with regard to this. In fact, in each of the cases where the great commission is given, in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, there’s an emphasis on baptism. In spite of this, there is widespread noncompliance with what is a very simple command. In many ways, it’s sort of the easiest act of obedience as a Christian you can do because all the rest have to do with sorting out the stuff that’s in your mind and heart, for the most part. This simple act , when obediently done, demonstrates a heart that seeks to honor the Word of the Lord. When not done, it betrays several possible motivations.
A person who claims to be a Christian and has not been baptized, fits into the following categories.
1. One, ignorance—that is, they’ve never been taught about baptism and that’s very possible in many, many places. From time to time, we have people baptized here who were converted years ago but never were taught the significance of baptism. And, some have been taught wrong. They have been taught that if they were baptized or if they were immersed or christened as a baby, that’s sufficient. So, it’s possible that some people are unbaptized in the church because of ignorance.
2. Secondly, pride is an issue. People who have allowed a long period of time to go since their conversion—they’ve named the name of Christ for a long time, they are involved with the church, they are known as Christian people, they have never been baptized—it’s a little bit embarrassing to acknowledge that failure and that disobedience for such a long time and so they’re not willing to humble themselves, admit they’ve been disobedient, and be baptized. So, it could be ignorance, it could be pride.
3. It could be indifference. There are plenty of people who just can’t be bothered—they can’t find a spot in their daytimer for it, it doesn’t fit into their schedule, it’s not a priority. They know it’s commanded in the Bible, but obedience isn’t the main thing with them—they have other priorities. That’s a sad situation—to be apathetic toward a specific command, to be indifferent toward a very direct command from our Lord, Himself, which brings honor to Him and blessing to the one who is obedient. But, there are people who are just indifferent—they just can’t get around to it, “I’ve been planning to do it, I’ve thought about it; it just doesn’t fit on the priority list.”
4. And, then fourthly, could be the defiant people—those who basically aren’t baptized because they are just rebellious—they refuse to obey. Usually those kinds of people are sinning…they’re in a pattern of sin and it would just sort of elevate their hypocrisy if they were to have to come up and give a testimony of their faith in Jesus Christ and celebrate His wonderful redemption on their behalf. So, people who are defiant and rebellious and just won’t be baptized, generally are in a pattern of sinning.
5. Then, fifthly, it’s possible that you’re unregenerate—you’re just not a true Christian, you have no desire to make a public confession of faith in Jesus Christ because you don’t want to be identified with Him in a public way. You may come and you may like to kind of hang on the edges and on the fringes here, but you’re not about to take your public stand with Christ. Those are the only reasons I can think of. Either you’re ignorant, you’re too proud to humble yourself and be baptized, you’re apathetic and indifferent toward that matter of obedience, you’re defiant, or you’re not a believer. That puts the issue squarely where it belongs and it backs you, if you’ve never been baptized, sort of into a corner to sort that out. It could be a combination of several of those things in some cases, but you’re in there somewhere.
Now, I want to explain baptism to you and I want to see if I can’t motivate you to be obedient for the glory of the Lord and for your own blessing. I guess the best way to do this…somebody said this morning that I wasn’t in much of a preaching mode and that’s probably true…this is more of a teaching time, this is more of sort of sorting out the issues with regard to baptism in a way that is teaching you the principles and the truths, but I’ll try to yell occasionally just so you don’t feel cheated.
1. Question number one: What is baptism?
What are we talking about here when we talk about baptism? Simply, here’s a definition: it is a ceremony by which a person is immersed into water. That’s what it is. It’s a ceremony by which a person is immersed into water or “dunked,” they used to say, in fact, there were people who baptized this way were called “dunkers.” So, this is simply a ceremony by which people are immersed in water; that’s it. And, right behind me here and under the floor, there’s a pool of water where that is done every Sunday evening.
Now, we do this because it’s instructed in the New Testament—we’ve already commented on the fact that the Great Commission’s all tell us to baptize and Peter, in his sermon on the day of Pentecost, told those who heard and believed, to be baptized. Let me go to the Word so we give you an understanding of this. There are two Greek verbs that are used in the New Testament with regard to baptism—they are translated baptism”: bapto and baptizo—bapto is the less common, used only four times in the New Testament and it means “to dip into.” “To dip,” “to dip into,” in fact, it was used for “dyeing” when you immerse something in a dye. It’s the word “immerse’…bapto.
Baptizo is an intensified form of bapto—the Greeks had ways of sticking in a few extra letters and intensifying a word. Baptizo is used many, many times in the New Testament; many, many times. It means “to dip completely” and it’s the Greek word for “drowning’; that shows you how complete the dipping is, potentially. It’s the word “to submerse” or “immerse”—in fact, the Latin equivalent is immersio (sp.) or submersio (sp.). The noun “baptism”—baptismas—is used always in the book of Acts to refer to a Christian being immersed in water…it’s always used to refer to a Christian being immersed in water. So, that is what baptism is: it’s a ceremony by which a person believes the gospel and is then immersed into water.
In fact, the terms bapto and baptizo, the verb, and baptismas, the noun, could have been translated “immerse” and probably would have solved a lot of problems, but the translators chose to transliterate the Greek baptizo into “baptise.” They transliterated it rather than translate it because it had become such a technical term for “immersion.” So, they just transliterated it across, but that doesn’t change the meaning—it means “to immerse.”
In fact, the Greeks had a different word for “sprinkling” and that word rhantisanti is used of “sprinkling or splattering with water”—it’s a different word altogether. We’re not talking about “sprinkling”—there’s no such thing as a ceremony of sprinkling in the Bible, or pouring or any application of water to the individual. Whenever you find “baptism” in the Bible, it is the word “immerse” or “submerse” and it means “putting the person under the water.” Every New Testament use these terms, requires or permits the idea of immersion. This is so obvious that even John Calvin, who basically came down on the side of infant sprinkling or infant baptism, says this, he writes, “The word ‘baptize’ means ‘to immerse.’” No linguist can come up with anything else. Calvin says, “The word ‘baptize’ means ‘to immerse’; it is certain that immersion was the practice of the early church.” There really is no argument, there’s no debate at that point.
The verbs—bapto, baptizo—are never used in the passive. That is to say, water is never said to be baptized on someone such as sprinkling or pouring or touching with water which is done in a great, great portion of the church today. They sprinkle, they pour, or they dip and just touch the water to the forehead or to some other part of the head. Never are those verbs used in the passive sense of water being placed on someone. They’re always used in the sense of someone being placed in water. Whenever you read in the New Testament about a baptism—an actual occasion of baptism—immersion is the only possible meaning.
Matthew 3—look at it…or just listen to it—Matthew 3:6, John the Baptist, “They were being baptized by him in the Jordan River.” They were being baptized in the Jordan River. They came down into the river and they were baptized there. The river was not taken to them; they were taken to the river. Matthew 3:16, “After being baptized, Jesus,” having been baptized, “went up immediately,” literally, “out of the water.” Jesus went down into the water…came up out of the water. Again, that clearly indicates that He went down into the water in order that He might be placed into that water and that’s the use of the word baptism…means immersed in that water.
In John 3…when John the Baptist was doing this baptism, he picked a place at the Jordan River that was deep. It says in verse 23 of John 3, “John was baptizing in Anon, near Salem.” Of all the spots you could stop along the Jordan River, he picked that one because “there was much water there” which is simply another way of saying the water was deep. There was enough water there to get people under it—that was the whole point. In Mark, chapter 1, verse 5, same thing, “All the country of Judea was going out to him and all the people of Jerusalem, they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River”…”in the Jordan River.” You remember in Acts, chapter 8, when Philip came across the Ethiopian eunuch, you remember the statement in verse 36, “Look; water! What prevents me from being baptized,” verse 38, “he ordered the chariot to stop, they both went down into the water, and he immersed him.”
Now, that is what baptism is. That’s what baptizo means. Baptism is a ceremony by which a person is immersed into water. That is the only kind of baptism the New Testament knows anything about—it doesn’t know anything about sprinkling, pouring, touching with water, and particularly doesn’t know anything about baptizing infants. I’m going to address that issue because it is an important issue and some of you will remember I made a presentation of that at a past Ligoneer (sp.) conference—there is one here this week, by the way, and that was completely coincidental that, in my preaching schedule, that this issue came up at this time. Many of the people who will be at the conference, of course, would affirm the things that I am teaching. Next Sunday morning, I think, I may do it next Sunday—I may postpone it a week, I’m not sure yet—I want to address the issue of infant baptism from a biblical perspective. You’ll find a very, very fascinating discussion.
But, as far as the New Testament is concerned, there is no such thing as pouring, sprinkling, touching with water, or baptizing infants. It was an act by which an adult person was placed into water. It had great spiritual significance and the significance of baptism can only be depicted in immersion. The significance of baptism, the spiritual significance, can only be depicted in immersion—I’ll say more about that later.
Now, when you look at baptism in the New Testament, you’re going to come across some other baptisms that are not water baptisms—there are times when the word baptizo is dry. There are times when the word baptizo isn’t talking about water at all, but we use it that way. We talk about people going through a baptism of fire, right? We mean, by that, that he was immersed in a very difficult situation. John the Baptist talked about a baptism of fire in John, chapter 3. What he was talking about was the immersing of unbelievers in the full fury of God’s fiery wrath.
There is a baptism by Christ, with the Holy Spirit, into the body of Christ, I Corinthians 12, “We’ve all been baptized with the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ.” When you became a Christian, you were immersed into the communion of the redeemed. You were placed in the union with every other believer so that he who that is joined with the Lord is one spirit with every other believer. So, there is the immersing of the believer into the body of Christ. There is the immersing of the unbeliever into the full fury and wrath of God under which he is completely submerged.
In I Corinthians, chapter 10, verse 2, it says, “The children of Israel were immersed into Moses.” It’s talking about solidarity. They were joined unto Moses in his leadership. What he did, they did. What he said, they followed. They literally…he was their leader and they were immersed into Moses. Where he went, they went. Solidarity, union, communion—the word then can have that sort of metaphoric meaning where it means being immersed into something. You could say, “I was immersed in my work. I was immersed in thought.” Those kinds of expressions don’t necessarily refer to water, but they refer to using the idea of water as a metaphor for being engulfed in something. So, there are times in the New Testament, when you read about a baptism, that isn’t a baptism by water; there are other times when, of course, it is as we’ve seen—a baptism by water.
We’re going to focus on the issue of the baptisms that have to do with water. This water immersion, commanded of every believer, is basically not negotiable. We don’t have an option with this. This is a command; it is a reiterated and repeated and obeyed command in the New Testament. It is in itself, a simple act, and were it no more than just to put somebody in water and take them out, we could say it was nothing but a dunk. It was nothing but a cleansing, it was nothing but a refreshing…nothing more.
But, there is much more because it is an object lesson. It is a depiction—it is a picture—it is a symbol—it is a physical analogy of a great spiritual truth that is profound—and it is crucial, if you understand what baptism signifies, to stick with the New Testament mode. If you change the mode of immersion, you then confound it’s symbol. God has designed that this simple ordinance teach us most wonderful truth—the most wonderful truth of all, the truth of personal salvation. It’s all wrapped up in this act of baptism.
And, of course, any student of the Bible knows that God teaches with symbols. In the Old Testament…all kinds of symbols and analogies and types and pictures and ceremonies…depicting a spiritual truth in some physical way. Certainly, in the New Testament, Jesus did that with His parables and His analogies…The apostle Paul does it with his illustrations. So we have long seen God dispense truth to us in sort of abstract terms, but connected with very concrete, pragmatic, tangible things which can graphically illustrate the truth…and baptism is one of those. It is an external, physical, symbolic act which depicts a profound and deep and essential spiritual truth. Now, let’s go to the second question. We know what baptism is.
2. What has been the history of baptism? How are we to understand its history?
Well, let’s go back, before the New Testament and we’ll get at least a portion of the history of baptism. There were a number of washings in Israel, a number of cleansings and ceremonial washings of the hands that the priests went through and the people went through and the washing of pots and things like that…that were certain kinds of immersings were necessary that depict cleansing.
But, Christian baptism has at least one very important sort of a precursor and that is Judaistic proselyte baptism. Before the New Testament…let’s say a Gentile had come to the knowledge of the true God. Some Gentile had heard the prophets or he had heard the testimony of a faithful Israelite or he’d come to Israel and he moved into the land and he took up residence there. Or he lived on the border or whatever and he was exposed to the living and true God, God moved upon his heart…he came to believe in the true and living God, he repented of his sin, and he became a follower of the true God, and he was a saved individual—a saved Gentile—who wanted to identify with God’s people, he would be called a proselyte. He had been proselytized, if you will—he was now a proselyte to Judaism. He was a Gentile wanting to become identified with the Jews and worship their God—like Cornelius would be, in the New Testament. Now, he would have to go through a three-stage ceremony… the Jews had developed a ceremony by which a proselyte would enter into privilege in the covenant community.
First of all, the first phase is called mela (sp.) and that amounted to circumcision. Because circumcision was a God-ordained sign, any male who came in, even in an adult, would need to be circumcised. He would need, therefore, to identify himself with the people of God by this unique circumcision ceremony.
The second thing that would happen to him, would be tebula (sp.)—mela (sp.) was the first one, tebula (sp.) was the second one—and that was an immersion. He would be dunked in water, submerged in water, in order to demonstrate this—this is what they said—it was to demonstrate that they were dead as to their old life. They were dead as to their old customs, their old habits, their old traditions, most of all their old idolatry, and their old iniquity. That was now gone; they were burying it. That submersion into water depicted the death of that old life. They would come out of that water, having arisen to walk in a cleansed and new life with God’s community—God’s family.
The third part of that three-phase induction of a Gentile into the people of God, was called corban (sp.) and it had to do with the sacrificial animal. They were to bring an animal to be slaughtered and the reason for the slaughtering of the animal was to remind that Gentile that their forgiveness—the forgiveness of their sin…they were coming into the community of God’s people…they were repenting and confessing the true and living God—that forgiveness of sin which God would grant to them would only come to them through death. So, here was the death of a substitute animal to picture the fact that there would have to be a substitute to die for their sins. They literally passed on, as it were, the symbol of a substitutionary death to those Gentiles who came in, again depicting the ultimate lamb who would come and truly take away sin. So, any Gentile who wanted to come in, would be circumcised, would be immersed, and would have to offer a blood sacrifice which was an open confession that their sin was going to require the death of a substitute. That, of course, looked forward to the Messiah who was that substitute.
Now, into this Jewish community comes John the Baptist and John comes preaching, and he comes preaching repentance, and then, he comes baptizing. That’s not surprising. That’s not surprising that John would come baptizing; they were used to that; they had gone through the ceremony; they were used to seeing people baptized, but what was shocking—what was devastating, what was remarkable—was that John the Baptist was asking Jews to be baptized. Why was that remarkable? It was an amazing thing. He was in effect saying to them, you are as what? You’re as Gentiles. You’re outside the covenant, you’re without hope in the world, you’re without God, you need to be immersed as a symbol that you have died to the old life, been washed, and brought into the cleansed family of God.
Now, for a Jew to admit that he was equal to being a Gentile was a stretch. I mean, it was a huge stretch. For the most part, they hated the Gentiles. The Gentiles had been their oppressors; the Gentiles were non-covenantal people. They (the Jews) ridiculed [them] in ridiculing ways, called them the uncircumcised. When they would come from a Gentile country back into Israel, they would stop before they crossed the border and shake the dust off their cloak so they didn’t take any Gentile dirt into their land. They wouldn’t go into the home of a Gentile because they were unclean. They wouldn’t eat food with a Gentile because they were unclean. They had all of these social prohibitions that they had erected which really were not consistent with the law of God, they had fabricated them. You remember Jonah—when a whole Gentile city, Nineveh repented—went out and wept and said he’d rather be dead than see Gentiles being allowed to come into the family of the true and living God? They had deep-seated racial animosity.
But, here comes John the Baptist and he says to them, “You need to be immersed!” and he’s treating them as if they are in the same condition as Gentiles outside the covenant. But, you know what? He preached repentance and he must have been a powerful preacher because he was very convincing and people began to repent, didn’t they? They really began to repent; this is a powerful man. He may have been the most powerful of all preachers…in fact, wasn’t it Jesus who clearly told us that? He said, “Of all who’ve ever lived, John the Baptist is the greatest.” Up until Christ, the greatest prophet ever—I would love to have heard him preach; he must have been something fierce, they chopped his head off for it and served it up on a platter at a party just to silence him.
But, all Israel was coming out there and here were all these people who basically were being redefined as if they were Gentiles—outside the covenant, outside the promise, outside the hope, outside salvation, and needing to repent of their sin—died of the old life of legalism and self-righteousness and all the Judaistic trappings, and to come to the true understanding of their sin and cast themselves on the mercy of God, and go into this baptism as a symbol that they wanted a new life and they wanted to be ready for the Messiah. So, he preached repentance and righteousness and he called for people to turn from iniquity to holiness, from the old life to a new one. In order to symbolize it, he selected baptism and Matthew 3 shows him, in the first 8 verses, baptizing people. “They were confessing their sins,” it says, and they were confessing that they were worthy of death, they were worthy of burial, and they needed a new life, and that was depicted in their immersion. So, the baptism of John the Baptist really did mark a turning point in the heart of a sinful Jew who wanted to be ready to face the Messiah and knew he wasn’t.
On one particular day, however, an incredible thing occurred and I need to comment on it—Jesus showed up. He had showed up before and John had said, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” So, John knew who he was and John had identified him as the Messiah, the One who would die for sin, the true Lamb who would be the final and full sacrifice.
But, Jesus showed up on another occasion in Matthew 3:13 and He comes to John to be baptized by John—this is quite remarkable. Well, he can’t handle this, verse 14, “John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You and You come to me?” This doesn’t make sense! You don’t need to reject Your old life. You don’t need to repent of anything—You’re sinless, holy, and undefiled. You don’t need to say no to the past and yes to the future. You don’t need to have some death to the old symbolized, and some resurrection to the new dramatized—that doesn’t make sense. This doesn’t fit You.” But, Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time, for this is just for now—it needs to be done, for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he permitted him.” Why did He do this? Well, He says it: “to fulfill all righteousness.” Listen; that’s so important. John understood baptism to be the confession of sin. John understood baptism to be repentance. John understood baptism to be the death of the old life, to rise and walk in new life. But, Jesus didn’t need to do that. He was sinless. Well, what’s the point? The whole idea of this baptism was to prepare sinners to receive the sinless King, so John tried to prevent Him, but Jesus said, “No. I have to do this for now because I need to fulfill all righteousness.”
Well, what does he mean by that? Some people say, “Well, He wanted to identify with the people who were getting ready for Him.” That’s possible. Others have said that, “He wanted to set the example for believers in the future.” I think that’s very possible—that’s getting close. But, let me just kind of cap it off. What He wanted to do was fulfill all righteousness and for us, all righteousness would include what? Baptism. If you’re going to fulfill all the righteousness that God asks of you, you’re going to be baptized. I think Jesus…you know His life was imputed to us, our sins were imputed to Him, His righteous life imputed to us…and He fulfilled all righteousness…all righteousness.
Yes, it was a symbol of His coming death. Yes, it was a symbol of His coming resurrection, of course. A sort of a prophesy of that, a sort of a type of that, a picture of that, a prefiguring of that, but I think what He says here is: I don’t have a choice about this because this is the standard of righteousness—to be baptized. It will continue to be the standard of righteousness—to be baptized, and since I am here, living as a man to fulfill all righteousness, I will be baptized. Of course, it doesn’t have the same exact meaning for Him, but He knows that this is a call from God. He knows that John the Baptist is preaching God’s message—it is God, through John, calling people to be baptized and it is God through the apostles and God through the preachers, calling you to be baptized. Jesus is simply saying, “In order to fulfill all righteousness, I will be obedient to what God desires. If I’m going to live as a man, I’m going to obey all the commands.”
So, in submitting to baptism, Jesus is showing us how critical obedience is. So critical that He did it, even though there was no need for Him to go through any kind of cleansing, any kind of repentance, any kind of confession of sin. Yes, I think Jesus, when He was going through that baptism by John and being immersed in water, anticipated that that’s what His death, burial, and resurrection was going to be like and that out of that would come a new symbol of baptism. But, He did it to fulfill all righteousness.
So, baptism is clearly a ceremony—very simple, somebody immersed in water and it has a spiritual significance of great importance. What is the history of it? It really is sort of a transition from proselyte baptism, which was also to identify some one as a sinner who is repentant, confessed his sin, and desired new life…and desired to be associated with the kingdom of the true and living God and His Son, the Messiah. Well, more to say…let me go to a third question.
3. What is the specific meaning of Christian baptism?
What is the specific meaning of Christian baptism? And, you already kind of known it, but let’s dig a little deeper into the text of the New Testament. All throughout the New Testament, Christian baptism is clearly identified for us. It’s really not hard at all. It’s—in fact—it’s crystal clear. Look at Romans, chapter 6 and I want to show you a couple of verses, so you can turn there and we’re not going to spend a lot of time there, but just a couple of thoughts and it will be very obvious to you.
When you come to Christ as a nonbeliever and you put your faith in Jesus Christ and you believe and you repent of your sin and you’re wonderfully saved, regenerated, born again; there is a spiritual miracle that takes place. I can’t explain all of it in its actual reality—I can only tell you what the words are in the text that describe it to us. When you come to faith in Christ, you are literally immersed into Christ. You’re literally immersed into Christ. His life becomes your life—it even reaches backwards so that He died bearing your sins so in that sense, you were there dying. He rose again for your justification, therefore you were there rising with Him. He was your substitute. He died and rose again for you, so in a real sense, He went to the cross carrying your sins and He comes out of the grave bearing your new life.
That’s what Paul in Romans 6:3 says: “Do you not know that all of us who have been immersed into Christ Jesus, have been immersed into His death.” This is a dry verse here, folks. We’re not talking about water baptism—he’s simply saying that when you have been immersed into Christ Jesus by faith, you have been immersed into His death. When you put your faith in Jesus Christ, “He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit,” I Corinthians 6 says. Paul says in Galatians 2:20, “I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me.” So, here I am inseparable from Christ, as it were. Here is Christ living in me and I am in Christ. I am in Christ; Christ is in me. My body is the temple of the Spirit of God—if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. Christ dwells within me. So, I am now in this inseparable, indivisible, unity with the Lord Jesus Christ. I am in an ongoing, constant, shared life—I possess the life of God, as it were. I am a partaker of the divine life. Christ dwells within me; the Holy Spirit has taken up residency in my life.
I have been literally immersed into Christ. That includes, verse 3, having been immersed into His death. I wouldn’t have this relationship to Him if I hadn’t died in Him in the sense that all my sins were there when He died—He was carrying my sins. It was as if I was there. God, in a supernatural and mysterious way literally puts the sinner and all his sin, in Christ. By the way, that would put all of us there because even our righteousness is filthy rags and before you were regenerate, you were all sin and nothing else so you were there in “toto” (sp.) when Christ died. So, anybody immersed into Christ, was immersed into His death, and, verse 4 says, “You were buried with Him through that immersion into His death, and then you were raised from the dead to walk in newness of life.” Verse 5 sums it up, “You were united with Him in the likeness of His death; you are united with Him in the likeness of His resurrection.” Your old self was crucified with Him and you now, verse 9, have been raised from the dead along with Christ, never to die again and death is no longer master over Him or you.
So, that’s the symbolism. The symbolism is of dying, being buried, and rising again. That symbolism can only be depicted in water baptism. That is the meaning of Christian baptism. It is a physical illustration—it is a physical symbol, a physical ceremony, intended to depict this reality. Whenever a person goes into the water, it symbolizes the death of the old life—they come out of the water…it symbolizes that they are now new creations.
In Colossians…well, Galatians…let’s look there and then we’ll go to Colossians, since they’re in that order…Galatians 3:27 says, “For all of you who were immersed into Christ have clothed yourself with Christ.” There’s a good parallel. What he is saying…he’s trying to figure ways to illustrate this union. He’s saying, “You been literally submerged into Christ. You’ve been literally immersed into Christ.” Another way to say it is: you have been clothed with Christ. In other words, you are wrapped in Christ; Christ covers you. You are underneath Him; you are contained, as it were, in Christ. He envelops you. And, there is neither Jew nor Greek…you sort of lose your identity here. There’s neither slave nor free man, neither male nor female…you’re all one in Christ Jesus and you belong to Christ, verse 29 says. That’s the idea.
In Colossians, chapter 2, similarly, verses 12 and 13, “Having been buried with Him in baptism,” that’s right—same idea. You were there dying in Him—you were immersed into Him in His death. “You were also raised up with Him, all of this through faith in the working of God who raised him from the dead.” You put your faith in God, you believe that God raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 10, “If you believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you’ll be saved.”), you believed that God raised Him from the dead and by faith, in God, raising Jesus from the dead, which affirms all about the cross and all about His bearing sin—all the way through to the resurrection…you affirm that, therefore you were buried with Him, immersed into Him, in that death and in that resurrection. You were placed into union with Christ, participating in His death, His resurrection…spiritually.
This is the baptism that saves. Peter talks about a baptism that saves—that’s the baptism that saves…the spiritual immersing into Christ, not the water. This is the true washing of regeneration of Titus 3:5, not the H2O. This is the real washing away of sins, Acts 22:16. Water is simply the symbol. It’s simply the parable. It’s simply the analogy. It’s simply the illustration. Jesus, you remember back in Mark’s Gospel, said, “If you’re not willing to confess Me before man, I’m not willing to confess you before My Father who’s in heaven.” This depicts that miracle. When a child asks, “Why do you do that? What is the meaning of baptism?” It’s a very graphic illustration…it makes it very clear in helping to explain to a child. When an unbeliever comes and sees a baptismal service, they’re literally seeing an object lesson of the spiritual dynamics of new birth. That leads to a fourth question.
4. What is the relation of immersion to salvation?
That’s what I just said, basically. It is a symbol of salvation already received. Acts 2:38 says, “Repent, and be baptized for the remission of sins.” Some people think, “Well, that means you can’t have your sins forgiven or remitted unless you’re baptized.” Is that what it’s saying? It could be translated, “Repent, and be baptized because of the remission of sins.” That’s a construction that is used, for example, in Matthew 12:41—the same construction translated that way. But, even it says, “Repent, and be baptized for the remission of sins,” the baptism doesn’t save you. The baptism is evidence of genuine repentance and an obedient heart—it’s just a way to demonstrate the genuineness.
Because, you see, when a Jew was…if you were listening to Peter preach on the day of Pentecost and you were going to go and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, you were going to be baptized in the name of the one who was probably hated more than anybody else by the Jewish leadership. You were going to wind up losing you family, your social status, your job, your right to attend the synagogue…everything. You would become immediately indigent and homeless. The price was very high…you would become a pariah, a social outcast. But, true faith will pay the price, count the cost.
So, when Peter says, “Repent and be baptized,” he’s saying, let’s see, if the repentance is real, you’ll take the stand. If the repentance is real, you’ll respond in obedience no matter what the price. Baptism was the immediate and inseparable indicator of salvation. True believers were obedient and they were baptized. Day of Pentecost: three thousand were saved and three thousand were baptized. The apostles insisted on it. That’s why we at Grace Church ask that anyone who joins our church, be baptized. We aren’t adding something; we’re just trying to be faithful to what the New Testament says. If a convert was not willing to be baptized—in the early church, there was little confidence in his repentance. There was no such thing as an unbaptized church. There was no such thing as all kinds of unbaptized believers. Baptism was obedience and obedience was the fruit of repentance.
This became then, an inseparable sign of salvation—so much so that when Paul was discussing salvation in Ephesians 4, he discusses it this way, “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.” And, he means by that, “one salvation,” but baptism and salvation had become synonymous. There are still places in the world where you don’t ask someone is they were saved, you ask them if they’ve been baptized because it was an inseparable and immediate indicator of salvation. As the church developed through the middle ages, baptism got pushed further and further and further away from the point of salvation—tragically. It’s still held at great distance by some people even in our society. As I say, you look at these crusades and these things that you see on television and there’s never any baptism—it doesn’t seem to be a part.
Yet, Jesus said, “Go out into all the world and make disciples, baptizing them.” When He was saying that…that was synonymous with salvation because the next thing He says is, “…teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you.” Baptism became synonymous with leading them to the knowledge of the gospel and if they were willing to receive the gospel, believe, repent…they would be baptized as an immediate response. So, when Peter says, “Repent and be baptized for the remission of sin,” he’s simply saying, “Repent and believe unto salvation…demonstrate the genuineness of that by the first act of obedience which is baptism.
We’re not saved by the water—that’s not going to save you. “By grace are you saved, through what?” “Faith, that not of yourself, not of works…not of works.” Paul says in I Corinthians 1:14, “I’m glad that I baptized none of you.” Now, if that was a saving act, how could he say that? It doesn’t save you—you can go through all the water you want and not be saved. And, I have to confess that you can be saved and not be baptized, but you’re in a condition of disobedience. Baptism produces nothing but blessing. Nothing but the joy and the reward of obedience. Nothing but the affirmation of God to an obedient child. It doesn’t save you, it doesn’t make you holier than somebody else…it just brings you the blessing of obedience—that’s what it does.
You could sum it up like this: as a believer stands in the water, ready to be immersed, he could declare these words, “I hereby confess in my willing submission to this divinely appointed ordinance, my glad obedience to the command of my Lord and Savior. In this symbolic manner, I show forth my identification with the one who bore my sins, took my place, died in my stead, was buried, and rose again for my justification. As Christ went through the dreadful reality of suffering and death to secure my salvation, so, by my immersion in water and emergence there from, I thus publicly declare my identification with my Lord in His death, burial, and resurrection on my behalf, with the intention hence forth to walk with Him in newness of life.” That’s the sum of it.
That leads me to another issue, that leads me to the next message, why is there so much confusion on this? Well, I think Satan wants to break the pattern of obedience at the very start, so there’s a lot of attacks on baptism. You know, there are churches that teach that it’s not for us—that it’s a Jewish ordinance that doesn’t belong to the church, Quakers, Friends Churches, Salvation Army, other hyper-dispensational groups—for those of you that know what that means—the Bullenger (sp) rights. Others say: you’re saved by water—the Christian Church, the Churches of Christ, Disciples of Christ—have taught baptismal regeneration through the years: that you can’t get to heaven without going through the water. And then there are those, who, like the Mormons who have baptisms for the dead—in one year over 2.5 million Mormons are baptized—proxy-baptisms for dead people.
And then you come to the Roman Catholic Church which the only baptism they have is the sprinkling and it’s infants that are sprinkled—the Roman Catholic Church has an infant baptismal regeneration belief that water cleanses the baby from original sin and results in regeneration. By the way, until the Middle Ages, the Roman Catholic’s immersed babies—sprinkling didn’t come until the Middle Ages. The Roman Catholic church teaches that if a baby dies without being christened or baptized, it goes to the “Limbo of the Innocence.” It never goes to heaven; it doesn’t go to hell—just goes to the “Limbo of the Innocence.” That’s the place where the soul enjoys natural bliss, but is forever deprived of the vision of God. So, these unbaptized infants just go hang out in some limbo place that’s some kind of natural bliss, but there’s no presence of God there. That’s not in the Bible, by the way. That’s how they intimidated people to get their babies baptized which brought them into the system, which brought them under control of the Roman Empire.
The Lutherans never got too far away from that, unfortunately—Luther never really shook the grave clothes of infant baptism. He even wrote a small book entitled The Small Baptismal Book, aptly named. He wrote it in 1526, and at an infant baptism, this is the prayer that he designed to be prayed…You bring your baby to be baptized and this is the prayer:
Oh Lord Almighty,
I invoke Thee concerning this child,
thy servant who asks for the gift of thy baptism
and desires thy grace through the spiritual new birth—
All of a sudden, this child is a servant of God who desires grace and new birth, even though this is a totally unconscious infant in the sense of knowing anything at all about anything.
Receive him, O Lord,
and thus extend, now, the good to him who knocks,
that he may obtain the eternal blessing of this heavenly bath,
and receive the promise kingdom of thy gift,
through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen.
And then, in Luther’s ceremony, the infant is asked, “Doest thou renounce the devil and all his works and nature?” The parents answer, “Yes.” “Doest thou believe in God the Father, in Jesus Christ, His Son, in the Holy Spirit, and the one Christian Church?” These were asked of the infant—the parents say, “Yes.” The child is then baptized, and then the concluding prayer:
The Almighty God hath begotten thee anew,
through water and the Holy Spirit,
and has forgiven thee all thy sins. Amen.
Why, that’s salvation. Infant salvation, through water.
The Reformed Church has moved some beyond that. They believe that when adults turn to Christ, they are to be sprinkled because they now are…so they do have adult sprinkling…they now have come into a covenant relationship to God. And then, when they have children, their children are automatically included in the covenant of grace and they are to be baptized when they’re born, as little members of the covenant. Later, they are confirmed as actual members, after satisfactorily answering the questions in the catechism—that’s usually called confirmation.
No such thing is taught in Scripture. Children born into this world are not somehow introduced, by virtue of their birth, into the covenant of salvation. And, there’s nothing about baptism with children at all. All of this stuff clouds the issue and so, so many people say, “Oh well…there’s many views of baptism…I don’t want to make an issue out of it…” and the devil gains the day, doesn’t he? This is not complex, this isn’t brain surgery—even I understand this. This is very straight-forward stuff. I’ll tell you, in next message, you’re going to find it fascinating when I talk to you about where infant baptism came from and you see why it even was developed—it had nothing to do with the Bible.
You know, during the time of the Reformation too, they thought that…they were so into infant baptism that anybody who got rebaptized after they’d been baptized as an infant was in some trouble. They were called Anabaptists because they got rebaptized. They came to the conviction that infant baptism was wrong and you needed to be baptized as an adult believer…they were rebaptized and in so doing, they were sort of slapping the face of the religious hierarchy—the national church—and the Reformation produced national churches, governmental churches, that, in many cases, weren’t much better than the Roman Catholic nations. They had literally Protestant countries where the church exercised great political pressure and power. Many times the Anabaptists were persecuted and sometimes executed by Reformers—hard to imagine.
So, that they thought rebaptism was unacceptable. Well, that’s another confusing thing. People ask me about that all the time: “I as baptized once as a baby; do I need to be rebaptized?” Answer: if you weren’t baptized the biblical way, you’d better be baptized the biblical way. John the Baptist’s disciples showed up in Acts 19; the apostles said to them, “Have you heard of the Messiah?” etc….they said, “We don’t know anything about that. We were baptized with John’s baptism.” They didn’t say, “Oh well, that’s sufficient.” They said, “Then you need to hear the truth about Messiah…” They heard the truth and they were baptized the right way. Well, more later…
Baptism is a command. It is the purpose of God. It is the command of Christ. And, if you say, “No!” it can’t be ignorance; we’ve eliminated that category, if you were listening. Pride, indifference, defiance, or you’re not a Christian. Jesus said, “How can you say, “Lord, Lord!” and do not the things I say?” Jesus said, “If you love me,” you’ll what? “Keep my commandments.” Don’t bring yourself under God’s chastening because of disobedience in this most simple act of obedience, which will bring upon you God’s favor and your own joy.
Now, make it practical. In the pew is a little green card…if you want to be baptized, we’re going to be prepared to do that. You just need to take that green card and put your name on it and check off baptism, or write “baptism’, and give us a phone number and address—most helpful would be a phone number—and we’ll get a hold of you and include you in a baptismal service very quickly. We’re going to do some special things in order to respond to you. The green cards are there—if you can’t find a green card, use a beige one. Just write your name and write “baptism” and make sure your phone number is there so we can reach you and we’ll arrange…our pastoral team is standing by and ready to arrange that.
All I can do is lay this on your conscious from the Lord Himself and trust that you’ll do what is right. For those of you who have been baptized—you know those who haven’t—you can become a little added conscience for them, to stimulate them to do what is right before God. When you go out the door, the ushers will be there and they will collect those green cards, O.K.? I’ll give you a minute to do that—don’t…if you’re too shy to take the green card out and see somebody watching, gonna have kind of a hard time getting into the baptismal—we have to get you past that barrier if we could, my goodness. Just take one of those cards and you should be stampeding to get one because of the joy of obedience.
Let’s pray—let’s stand first and we’ll pray.
Transcribed by:
Tony Capoccia
Bible Bulletin Board
Box 119
Columbus, New Jersey, USA, 08022
Websites: http://www.biblebb.com and http://www.gospelgems.com
Email: tony@biblebb.com
Online
October 2, 2006 at 2:50 pm
Zealot:
Zach, you cornball you! I knew that you and Amy would get together. Life is a journey better traveled with a soulmate. I think you have found one. I will pray for you both.
Bills made you proud Sunday. About time.
By the way , you can call me Lou.
Take care little brother.
ps Field of Dreams,Frequency,Always?
October 2, 2006 at 4:16 pm
Big Jake..My dear Friend in Christ..I didn’t mean to belittle or bicker. If I came across that way, please forgive me. You posted quite a lot and I agree with much of what you wrote. I, too, believe that the fall of man by his first sin has carried on generation after generation. I was raised in a church that gave me a lot of foundational teaching , but as I got older I had a quest to know God on a more personal level and began my quest by going to God directly, and asking Him to lead me and give me wisdom. I began reading the scriptures myself, not letting a church tell me what they said, but letting the Holy Spirit open my eyes. I have read several commentaries and several books. The one common thread throughout the entire Bible, is that Jesus IS God, and HE is the Word (John 1:1)and that He is the ONLY way to the Father. I also believe that there is nothing mankind can do on its own to merit heaven. It was Christ’s sacrifice alone, HIS shed blood that saves us. If we could do ANYTHING on our own, why would Christ have to die such a horrible death? I assumed you were Catholic when I read your post. I have nothing against catholics and I know many that I believe are truly saved. (I believe YOU are) I also know many that believe the church, just by being a member, will save them. They know a lot about their church, but very little about God. They go through all the motions, but they are basically worshipping their church. I truly hope that you understand that my response to baptism was in no way putting your belief down. I feel the real meaning of baptism has been robbed because so few people know what Christ actually was doing. When you think about it, isn’t it beautiful that a totally innocent man/God wanted to have relationship with us so much, that He stepped out of Glory and did for us what we couldn’t do for ourselves. We’re not worthy, but we’re not worthless. What a great God we serve.
You are my brother in Christ and I really don’t care what church or doctrine you align yourself with as long as it never denies Christ.
I look forward to your posts.
October 2, 2006 at 4:55 pm
My dear Angel:
I didn’t take your commentary as bickering or belittling. I simply state that I do not know
if it is enough for someone to profess to Christianity and be a follower of Jesus without Baptism .
To quote from Mr. MacArthur’s article
“Baptism is a command. It is the purpose of God. It is the command of Christ. And, if you say, “No!” it can’t be ignorance; we’ve eliminated that category, if you were listening. Pride, indifference, defiance, or you’re not a Christian. Jesus said, “How can you say, “Lord, Lord!” and do not the things I say?” Jesus said, “If you love me,” you’ll what? “Keep my commandments.” Don’t bring yourself under God’s chastening because of disobedience in this most simple act of obedience, which will bring upon you God’s favor and your own joy.”
I admit he is extreme. But this is from a “Protestant” not a “Roman Catholic” view point. The message is the same.
Simply put, if you make bread and leave out some ingredient ,lets say yeast , and your bread doesn’t turn out you will say “If only I ADDED THE YEAST I would be enjoying Bread now.
I don’t want to take that chance.
Neither would I want to tell someone that Baptism is not necessary when I see over and over that theologians are saying that it is.
I love my Lord with my whole heart and my whole soul. I am not worthy of the great gift He has given me by dying on the cross for my sins, for giving me His Mother as my own and making me His brother. I never want to be separated from Him now or in Eternity.
Your Brother in Christ Jesus
Big Jake
October 2, 2006 at 7:04 pm
Thank you for being so sweet. I agree a person should be baptised once they accept Christ as their savior. And it is an act of obedience. Where I differ, is that I don’t think it’s necessary for salvation. Think of all the things you (& I) do on a daily basis that are NOT obedient. Intentional and not intentional. How many of the 10 commandments do you break on a daily basis? God knows we can’t live a perfect life. What is so awesome about Him, is that he knows our heart, and most sincere believers really do try to do their very best. I work in an office with a lot of woman, and I am constantly subject to gossip. and swearing, and who’s sleeping with whom, etc. Sometime some of this stuff gets pretty juicy and the nosey side wants to hear all about it, but I know in my heart that it’s wrong. Fortunately, when we stumble He is always there to help us get back on track again. I, too, am looking forward to the day when I can spend eternity with God and be with all the loved ones who have gone on before me. I really don’t know how people that don’t know Christ can find hope in this crazy world. I believe we are living in the end times, too……what do you think?
October 2, 2006 at 8:15 pm
Big Jake: Lou, huh? Somehow that dosen’t seem to fit you. You’re more like a Big Jake to me.
Anyway, yeah, the Bills made me proud Sunday. And what do you mean, it’s about time? What is that, a little jab?? Hahaha. I hear it all the time. Everyone I know has pretty much jumped off the bandwagon. Did you notice Bill Clinton was there?? I saw him and I knew he must be there campaigning for his darling Hillary. It couldn’t be because he’s a Bill’s fan, the wuss. I always think he’s got some other agenda going.
I was reading all this stuff you and the Angel were writing about baptising. I was sprinkled when I was a kid. I supposed I should do it again from what you say. I’m going to see what Amy says about that. She’s pretty knowledgable on the Bible so I’ll pick her brain later. She likes talking about this stuff.
Are you on that other forum? I can’t get into it. The page won’t come up on my computer. I don’t care anyway. If that other clown gets on here and wants to mouth off, I don’t really care anymore anyway. Like you said, we’re all anonymous.
Big Jake…I don’t want to lose contact with you. So stay on here, okay?
I haven’t seen those movies yet, but I’ll watch them Amy sooner or later.
October 3, 2006 at 8:25 pm
Big Jake, Angel – thanks for your insight. I’ve always figured I’ll be one of those left behind for the test of faith. I will consider what you’ve said.
Z – awesome news!!! I am so happy for you! I bet Amy is as excited about this relationship as you are, she’s probably just afraid of appearing to look like she wants a big committment. I knew my husband was the guy for me on our first date. I’ve never asked him when he knew.
The skins won, too!!!!
What do you all think about this thing with Foley? First Barney Frank, then Clinton, and now Foley … our kids aren’t even safe up on the Hill. How many more abuses have gone unreported?
October 4, 2006 at 12:49 am
Americanwoman: Thanks. I started seeing her a little bit in May and we seemed to hit it off right away so it picked up quick. She’s really something special. She’s so pretty and feminine. I really like her. Don’t want to blow it, but don’t want to rush in, either. Her husband died a little over a year ago and she’s pretty vulnerable right now so I don’t want to take advantage. But I don’t want anyone else to scoop her up, either. She’s not leading me on. She doesn’t chase me at all. And I like that. She’s got me stumped. I really don’t know what to think. You women are funny. Hard to figure. Her birthday was a couple of weeks ago, so I bought her a teddy bear. I got her a gold necklace and I put it around the bear’s neck and then I took it to the florist and had them throw some flowers in and wrap it up for me. I gave it to her after I took her out to dinner and when she saw it she cried. Not boo hooing stuff, but she just got all teary. I told her she could take the necklace back and get something she liked if she didn’t like it, and then she started laughing and told me how sweet I was and that she loved it. Am I stupid or what? Another time I was at her house and the music was on and this nice song came on so I just kind of grabbed her and started to slow dance with her. The next thing I know she’s crying on my shoulder. I just kept right on dancing cause, man, I didn’t know what was going on. I figure the least said is the best said. Anyway, keep your fingers crossed for me cause I do think this girl is would be quite the prize.
And Big Jake…where you been? I want you to address my baptising. If you think I should do it again, advise me. I figure if I should do it, I don’t want the desire thing, I want to just do the right thing. Let me know, buddy.
Need to help my son with some math…boy,is he in for a surprise…I suck at math. Talk to you later.
October 4, 2006 at 1:11 am
Z, Lovesamerica is probably severely depressed and as a woman, I can empathize with her. You are such a great guy and the teary eyed thing from Amy … well, I think a decent woman really tries to hide her tears in front of a guy until she feels 100 percent comfortable. And even then … to this day, I can’t watch “Out of Africa” in front of my husband because I feel like a blubbering idiot and I feel even worse because he doesn’t know how to make me feel better. Like I say, there are differences between the genders and I think we’d all be better off if we learned to appreciate and embrace them. I don’t want to be married to a girlfriend … I want a strong guy who I know will take care of me, but I need my girlfriends to talk girl stuff. Trust me, Z, Amy is probably head over heals for you. Lovesamerica … where do you live? Follow Red Dawn’s instructions to get on the safe site since “you know who” is probably reading in. I have serveral good young men I know … and they’re fire department and military guys who are good guys. Nothing perverted about it. My husband always cringes when I try to match-make, but it’s hard not to do when you know good single women and good single men who just don’t connect.
October 4, 2006 at 4:37 am
Zealot: you asked:
“And Big Jake…where you been? I want you to address my baptising. If you think I should do it again, advise me. I figure if I should do it, I don’t want the desire thing, I want to just do the right thing. Let me know, buddy.”
Ok To start with if you were baptized as an infant and the baptism was valid. There is no need to be re-baptized. If you were baptized as an adult or at the age of reason and your baptism was valid, there is no need to rebaptize. Valid baptism is a once in a lifetime event. no need for a second baptism.
Hope this helps.
Angel : End Times? Sure seems like it. We will know when the weirdness starts. Micro chips under the skin ,etc.
October 4, 2006 at 12:03 pm
Americanwoman, you are right. You know me too well and I am TOTALLY bummed. I live in Atlanta and you want to know what really bugs me? My name is AMY!! I have NO LUCK at all.
Zealot or Zach, where did you meet this girl? How did she get sooooooooooooooo lucky??
October 4, 2006 at 2:03 pm
lovesamerica: I need to destroy this image you seem to have of me. I appreciate that you think I’m such a great catch, but I’m not all that great. I met Amy after I was involved in a minor explosion that sent me to the emergency room. I broke my hand, and was sent up to X-ray. When I got up there, Amy was the x-ray tech, and she told me the nurses called her and told her they were sending up a cute fireman to have his hand x-rayed. She asked me where my partner was with the injured hand. I laughed. Then I told her they had told me to be prepared for x-ray because it was quite a freak show. We both just laughed. She had a cute sense of humor and I thought she was gorgeous. I starting bumping in to her around town. At the grocery store, Burker King, Uni-Marts. We’d stop and talk. When I finally asked her out, she turned me down. The Firemen’s picnic was coming up and I called her and asked her to go. She said no. I was pissed. I asked her what her problem was and she said she wasn’t ready for anything yet. I told her it was a frickin picnic, that wasn’t asking her to marry me. I told her to consider it a mercy date and just go. So she did. The truth is, I wanted to take her because she is such a knockout I wanted to show her off to the other guys. Do I sound like a jerk now. Anyway, we started to hit it off and had a good time. She was VERY cool with me in the beginning. Very. Another truth, if she would’ve been willing to sleep with me on the first date, do you think I would’ve said no? Come on. That’s the first thing I thought of when I first laid eyes on her. So don’t think I’m so perfect man because I’m not. I treat her like a lady because she is worth it. I will wait for her to come to me and she will when she’s ready. I can talk like this on her because none of you know me. I can’t talk like this to anybody else. My friends would have me committed. They’d think I was a sap. That’s why I like getting on here so I can say pretty much what I think and feel and it doesn’t matter. I actually feel close to Big Jake for some reason. And the truth be known, I’d like to meet him, but I know that will never happen. Trust me, you’ll find the guy that’s just right for you. Don’t chase him. Guys really do like to be the one in control. I know I do. Act like something special, and you’ll be treated special. Every guy wants a woman other guys respect. Call it ego, but it’s nice to have a woman you’re proud of. And as far as the Teddy bear thing, my sister gave me that suggestion. And it worked. Amy loved it. I never would’be thought of that on my own. Take care.
October 5, 2006 at 4:19 am
“lovesamerica Says:
October 4th, 2006 at 12:03 pm
Americanwoman, you are right. You know me too well and I am TOTALLY bummed. I live in Atlanta and you want to know what really bugs me? My name is AMY!! I have NO LUCK at all.
Zealot or Zach, where did you meet this girl? How did she get sooooooooooooooo lucky??”
lovesamerica/Amy -stop feeling sorry for yourself ,let your personality shine out and you will have to beat the guys off with a stick! What is the matter with you? You are only 23 years old!!! This is your time to shine!
What do you do for fun? What clubs /church groups do you belong to? What hobbies do you enjoy?
Don’t tell me that you sit home alone feeling sorry for yourself when you should be out enjoying life.
There are plenty of decent guys who probably see you feeling sorry for yourself and interpret that for disinterest.
They are probably thinking that you wouldn’t give them the time of day,so why bother asking you out?
Give yourself a little credit.
That’s the advice I would give to my own daughter ,who by the way is your age!
October 5, 2006 at 10:36 am
Big Jake, thank you for your advice. I wish you were MY father. My Dad (although he doesn’t really act like one) left my mother for a woman about 20 years younger than him when I was still in elementary school. My sister and I grew up with a bitter woman. I love her and she’s never neglected us, but she has always warned us about men. Zealot or Zach or whatever he wants to be called still sounds okay to me. He just sounds like a normal guy that gets turned on by a pretty face. I like the way he treats a girl. He seems sweet and sensitive. So he took her to a picnic to show her off. I don’t think that’s jerky. Do you? She’d probably be flattered if she knew. But he doesn’t force himself on her. And I think it’s romantic that he’s waiting for her. I’d love to be in her shoes. (Truthfully, if we’re talking truth, I probably would’ve given in already by now!) I’m not ugly, but I’m not drop dead gorgeous, either. I should probably lose about 20 pounds. No, I don’t sit home and feel sorry for myself. I’m confident in myself and I would be darn good to the right man. I’m not a cheat or a liar and I would love to be there for someone who would appreciate me. I work in a large office in an office complex and I meet lots of guys. The ones that hit on me the most are usually married or cheating on their girlfriends. I don’t belong to a church and there are dozens down here. I believe in God and I pray. I have gone to churches before, but most of the guys there are hooked up with someone. The ones that arn’t I wouldn’t be interested in. Americanwoman knows what I want. She just seems to know. When you were younger, what did you look for? I know you’re a nice guy. And I do wish you were my father. You have this quality that makes it easy to confide in you. Zealot picked up on it right away. Personally, I would like to meet both of you. I’d be a little afraid to meet Zealot because I don’t think I’d be pretty enough for him. I’m very ordinary and get lost in the crowd. Never caused a traffic jam. I’ve met a few nice guys but they’re not interested in a commitment right now. I don’t want an affair with anybody that isn’t serious. I would gladly give up my career to take care of a man and children. I’d love to have a nice home. I would love to have a man value me and love to come home to me and just be satisfied with me alone. You seem to have found that. Zealot had that once and I think he would be faithful and treasure someone again. It’s a lonely world. I hate bars. I would like to be in love and married and things don’t look too promising. (And Zealot, I know you’re probably going to read this, and you’re STILL my hero.)
October 5, 2006 at 2:01 pm
lovesamerica, I am not that superficial that looks are a priority. I like pretty woman and I’m sure in this image you have of me I’m what you’d be physically attracted to, too. Looks are always what you notice first but if there arn’t other qualities there it fades quick. My wife was a beautiful italian girl from a large family. She was a great cook and you couldn’t get two feet in her family’s front door without having food put in front of you. When she died I was 30 pounds over weight and my cholestrol was off the charts. I’m a big guy, too, over 6′. To keep myself busy and my mind off being without her, I started running and working out at the gym. I got my cholestrol under control, too. Amy is a health nut. We run together and work out together. She’s very careful what she eats. We go for a lot of walks. You’re right, I was first attracted to her because of her looks and her body and I still am. But after getting to know her, she’s the whole package. She beautiful inside and out. Just like my wife was. You sound like a sweetheart of a girl and the right guy, if he’s smart enough, will see it. Don’t sell yourself short that you get lost in a crowd. We all feel that way sometimes. I was so lonely after my wife died I thought about blowing my head off a couple of times. I’d wake up at night and could hardly breathe from the anxiety. You know what woke me up? 9-11. And that’s the God’s honest truth. I was so happy to be alive after that and for the first time I realized I needed to focus on what I HAD, not what I didn’t have. My son. Great friends. Great family. People who really cared about me and how I was. Big Jake’s right. You’re only 23 and you may not find the right guy for a while, but get out there and start living. Stop looking for something. It will happen on it’s own at the right time. You are definitely somebody’s prize.
October 5, 2006 at 4:40 pm
Hey, Kids! Been on the road for the past three days getting home from NC, then took the fourth day to “settle back in.” Wow! A lot of insightful info from Big Jake, as usual. Thanks, big guy.
Zealot, glad to hear “Amy” is a keeper. Don’t want to say “I told you so,” but I told you so! God will send you what you need when you’re ready for it. So, stay the course, keep your feet on the ground, but enjoy the time with your head in the clouds. Y’all are gonna do just fine.
Yes, having “the right person” around in the times we live in makes it easier for me. I don’t know what I’d do if Paula was an empty-headed bimbo. I agree with Zach/Zealot’s analysis of women. I don’t go for the pretty faces also because they are usually so shallow. A wise gent once told me “there are no perfect tens.” Z/Z is right; it’s a composite score. You need a certain amount of brains, beauty, and, yes, brawn, for a gal to be attractive to me. An odd thing my Mom said to me years ago is “being a woman is knowing when not to be a lady.” She had no qualms about bait worms, minnows, getting mudding wading in streams where Dad wanted to go fishing, etc. When I got a little older (dating/marriage age) she said a good wife is a gourmet cook in the kitchen, a perfect hostess in the living room, pious in church, a skilled handyman helping fix things around the house, and a slut in the bedroom. I guess the chap that penned the phrase, “I want a gal just like dear old Mom” had a mother like mine! ; ) Yes, my Paula is all of the above and I thank God for Him sending her to me.
Re: Looks department. I have fun with that one, too. If in a phone conversation and asked what I look like, I’d say, “You Brad Pitt? Well, I don’t look anything like him!” Paula thinks I’m good looking, but I accuse her of “not getting out much.” But it’s really the composite score thing, plus she knows that I love her and would do just about anything for her. I help around the house and she says five of the sexiest words I can say to her is, “Honey, I scrubbed the bathtub.”
Ya just gotta treat ’em right and you don’t have to worry about waking up “a few inches shorter” like a fellow we know about from some years back. Yes, indeed, Hell has no fury as a woman… scorned or otherwise!
Well, I’m off (but I’m sure you’ve deduced that already) to check the main page of the site. Then it’s time to rustle up some grub. ‘Bye for now…
October 5, 2006 at 9:28 pm
DJ, nice to have you back. Your Paula sounds like something pretty special,too. I look up to you and Jake and value your input. Something you said is stuck in my brain, though. A woman is supposed to be a slut in the bedroom??…not a nice thought to plant in my head when I’m trying to stay a gentlemen. Thanks. It doesn’t help when she wants to cuddle all the time…Amy and I are going to have to stop spending so much time together cause I can’t take much more of this…women…what they can do to us.
October 6, 2006 at 1:55 am
Z: Sorry if I have offended you quoting one of my Mom’s colorful anecdotes. As soon as I hit “submit comment” I wondered if I should have used another term for “pleases husband in private environs.” I know what you mean about trying to be a gentleman around someone nice. However, sex is human nature and a woman might think “What’s wrong with him?” or “Why doesn’t he find me attractive?” if a guy is too reserved when the time is right for the relationship to go to the next level. When is that time and how will you know? Believe me, the guy that figures that out will be either very rich from writing the book on the subject or very tired. ; )
Cuddles are great! Sounds like she feels safe with you and trusts you; be honored. But trade off holding and being held. A guy that claims he doesn’t like to be coddled a little ocasionally needs to just relax and go with it. And the ladies, in my humble opinion, they miss being “Daddy’s girl” and a strong, loving guy makes them feel safe and loved. Ladies: please chime in here and let me know if I’m onto something or just on something.
And once again I apologize if my quote on my Mom’s criteria of a good wife was a little too crude for some.
October 6, 2006 at 4:15 am
lovesamerica/Amy :
You wrote “I’m not ugly, but I’m not drop dead gorgeous, either. I should probably lose about 20 pounds.” Congratulations :
1)You are honest.
2)You are not stuck up/
3)You are intelligent and can hold someones interest in meaningful engaging conversation
4)You have opinions and are not bashful about expressing them
5)you have a vibrant personality, your personal magnetism draws people to you.
6) you are passionate about everything
7)you care about other people
8)I venture to say that if by your own account ,you are not drop dead ,traffic stopping gorgeous you are most definitely (it is mandatory that you choose one of the following descriptions:
1) “cute”
2)”attractive”
3)pretty
4)a fine lookin’ woman
5)hubba hubba!
You also wrote:
“When you were younger, what did you look for? I know you’re a nice guy. And I do wish you were my father. You have this quality that makes it easy to confide in you. Zealot picked up on it right away. Personally, I would like to meet both of you”
In my post #334 I wrote:
Big Jake Says:
September 8th, 2006 at 12:30 pm
lovesamerica : you are alot like my wife. You’ve got it all together just like she did at 23. That’s when we got married .That was 27 years ago. Make sure you wait for the right guy . You deserve the best.
I was looking for someone with your qualities
and I found her when I met my wife.
You are special, zealot wrote: “You are definitely somebody’s prize”
We all see how special you really are ,We have to get you to see it too! Hang in there.
October 6, 2006 at 12:09 pm
Page 46 – Waiting On God
ISAIAH 60:22b — WHEN GOD IS READY, HE MOVES STRONGLY & SWIFTLY
WE NEED TO LEARN TO WAIT ON GOD, AND LEARN THAT:
– GOD IS NOT IN A HURRY !!! (HE WANTS IT DONE RIGHT, NOT QUICKLY)
– GOD’S TIMING AND HIS WAYS ARE NOT THE SAME AS OURS
(ISAIAH 55:8-9)(ACTS 1:7)(II PETER 3:8)(PSALM 75:2)
– GOD WANTS TO STRENGTHEN OUR FAITH
– INSTANT ANSWERS DO NOT MATURE US
– GOD WANTS TO MAKE US COMPLETE & WHOLE (JAMES 1:2-4; GAL. 5:22-23)
– WAITING DURING TRIALS IS GOOD TRAINING : (HEBREWS 12) (MAL. 3:3)
(IT BUILDS CHARACTER & BUILDS OUR HOPE) (ROM. 5:3) (ISAIAH 49:23)
– GOD WANTS TO TRANSFORM US TO BE LIKE JESUS (ROM. 8:29; 2 COR.3:18)
– WE NEED TO LEARN SUBMISSION (JAMES 4:6-8,10) (ISAIAH 1:19,20)
God’s Spiritual Goals For You & God’s Training
God’s Gift of Brokeness
– GOD WANTS US TO BE ONE WITH HIM AND INTIMATE WITH HIM
– “SPIRITUAL CONFUSION” – OSWALD CHAMBERS
– “GETTING INTO GOD’S STRIDE” – OSWALD CHAMBERS
http://www.intimacywithgod.com/page46.html
WAITING ON GOD MEANS:
– TRUSTING IN HIM
– RESTING IN HIM (MATTHEW 11:28-30)
– HOPING IN HIM (ISAIAH 49:23)
– WAITING WITH HIM (HEBREWS 13:5,6)
– SEEKING HIM AND HIS WILL (HEBREWS 11:6)
– GETTING RIGHT WITH HIM
– SUBMITTING TO HIM (PSALM 16:8-11) (ISAIAH 66:2-4)
October 6, 2006 at 1:24 pm
Big Jake, thanks for the insight into God’s word. I feel very humbled right now and ashamed because I know that sex is supposed to be saved for marriage, and I’m a failure at that one. I’m not ready to live like a monk. I care a lot about Amy. I know she’s waiting for me to tell her I love her and I know things would heat up if I did. I’m not going to use that to get what I want. If I ever tell her that I will mean it and I’ll be ready to make a commitment to her. Selfish as it may sound, I do want everything else. And I have been very patient and I’ve walked away a few times when I know she would’ve. I’ve kicked myself in that ass for it, too, because I’d probably be having some great sex right now. I’m sure I sound like a jerk. I don’t like casual sex, it’s always better when you care about the person and I really do care about her. I didn’t see her last night. I took my son on a motorcycle ride with me and we ended up at Caroline’s grave. He asked me if I like Amy better than his Mom. I grabbed that kid right there and hugged him as hard as I could and I told him no one would ever take the place of his mother. That she was in part of my heart that was just hers. I get messed up in my thinking sometimes so I need you and DJ to set me straight. And DJ, tht slut thing, you didn’t say anything wrong. It’s just been on my mind a lot and I don’t want to end up hurting her.
October 6, 2006 at 4:10 pm
Big Jake, you are such a nice man. In response to your post 469, I have to say I’m probably #1. Just cute. I even feel funny saying that because I work with so many girls and I think most of them are prettier than me. I let alot of my friends here read some of the posts and I told you once before that we’re all in love with Zach and we’d all like to beat up Amy. But, we’ve been talking and we have a question. You and that DJ are pretty neat guys, too. It’s just that you’re older than we are. But do guys really talk to each other and to women like you do on here? You guys are so open and we’d all like the guys we know to be like you three, but they’re not. It makes us wonder if Zealot talks to Amy the way he does on here. He sounds like a Lifetime movie. We’re all waiting to see what’s going to happen next with him. And some of us thought we’d like help him out in the sex department….JUST KIDDING!! (well, sort of kidding) Seriously, if I could find someone that talked with me like you guys I’d think I got the prize. I love all three you. I know Zealot thinks of you as a brother so I don’t want to think of you as my father because that would make me his sister and that’s just plain gross, so I’m naming you as my Guardian. DJ…you can be my Uncle. Cause you’re a really smart guy. Zealot, well, he’s still my dream man but you two would be in the running if you were younger and didn’t have wives. I haven’t shared this website with my friends because I don’t want them getting on here and seeing me bare my soul. I’m alot like Zealot that way because it’s a part of you you can reveal and yet keep secret at the same time. Some guy that works in one of the other offices asked me out for dinner tonight and I think I’ll go. He’s not really my type but he’s nice. He’s small, and that kind of turns me off. I think I could probably beat him up but he’s so mannerly and always opens doors for us girls and never swears in front of us, so I think he’s probably an okay guy. I just wish he was HOT. I wish he was Zach is what I wish. I better get off of that because I sound like a nut. But thank you, Big Jake, and dthank you DJ. You guys are awesome men, and I would really miss you if you quit writing.
October 6, 2006 at 4:21 pm
Big Jake, I screwed up. If you were my father and Zealot was your brother he’d be my Uncle. That’s still gross. Wish me luck on this date tonight because I’m really not all that enthused about it.
October 6, 2006 at 7:15 pm
Big Jake, DJ, Zealot, me again, we’ve been talking. Please humor us. We have a bet and I want to win it. We want an idea what you all look like.
Zealot. 1. We know you’re over 6′, so,dark hair, dark eyes, and I’m positive you smell great. Nice personality. 2. Blonde hair, blue eyes, great teeth. Awesome kisser, and I bet you look great in jeans and leather. 3. Dark hair, blue eyes, nice body, good tan. 4. Blonde/brown hair, brown eyes, smell good, nice tan, great ass. Who the hell cares about his personality?
DJ: 1.Tall, dark, thin, looks like a college professor. Probably pretty cute. 2.Short, pot gut,maybe one hair on his head. (Trust me, that’s not mine!) 3. Very sophisticated looking. (Whatever that means) Probably treats you like gold. Good sense of humor. Could advise the others on how to treat a woman. 4. Gray hair, tall, total gentlemen, probably smokes a pipe and doesn’t own jeans, too classy for them.
Big Jake: 1. Tall, dark, sweet and cuddly. 2. Tall, distinguished looking, square jaw, a little chubby, no hair 3. Short, gray hair, nice soft eyes, sweet smile. 4. Tall, a little fat, never wears jeans, nice eyes. Would make you feel like a million bucks no matter what you were like.
C’mon, have a little fun. Let us know.
Thanks
October 6, 2006 at 11:29 pm
lovesamerica:
OK I’ll give it a shot
Black hair starting to grey, hazel eyes
5’9″
I go to the Gym 2-3 times /wk
Need to drop 25-30 lbs
Shy but friendly,nice smile and disposition
I’ve been told I look most like Fernando Valenzuela pitcher for the L.A. Dodgers in the late 1980’s to 1990’s,and Victor Mature, Actor(The Robe,Demetrius and the Gladiators)
October 7, 2006 at 12:53 pm
lovesamerica: I wasn’t going to do this but I saw that Big Jake did, so I’ll join in. I’m 6’3″ 205lbs. Everyone tells me I look like Keanu Reeves. Not really. We got together with my sister and her husband a couple of weeks ago and watched some movie about a glass house and Reeves was in it and Amy and my sister got all drooly over him. Personally, I think he looks kind of dainty, but he sure trips their triggers. I don’t know what they see and it was a sleeper of a movie to boot. They loved in got a teary. I got teary because it wasn’t ending quick enough. Anyway, if you saw me you’d probably think I was italian but I’m not. My Dad is polish and my Mom is native american. So I do have dark hair and my eyes are blue and I always look like I have a tan because it’s my natural skin color. The eyes are the only thing I got from Dad. I had to laugh when you mentioned teeth because my Dad is a dentist so my sister and I have good teeth. My dad and I have always had a strained relationship. My career choice has always been a major diappointment for him. He wanted me to go into dentistry and he always reminds me that I could’ve made a lot more money and I had a better life than I do. He’s gotten better over the years but we’re nothing alike. He’s calm and dignified and I was a rebel and I’ve always had a quick temper. I’ve gotten better as I’ve gotten older. He likes to golf, I always wanted to hunt and fish and he would never take me. It must be the indian blood in me. I always wanted to be outdoors. I like being in the woods. My first name is really Kevin and my middle is Zachary, but somehow when I was little everyone called me Zach and it just stuck. You girls make me laugh. You must sit around your office and share your fantasy’s. If you knew me, you’d probably change your minds in a quick hurry. And Jake, I hope some of the last things I’ve posted haven’t made you think less of me as a man. I don’t have any brothers and like I said, I can’t talk to my dad about anything so what you say I take to heart.
October 7, 2006 at 3:39 pm
lovesamerica,Big Jake & Zealot. I have been reading you posts with interest. Zealot, you do sound very handsome, almost like a heartthrob. However, Big Jake, I am very happily married but if you look anything like Victor Mature my heart is yours. I have The Robe on tape and I usually watch it every Easter. You, Big Jake, are smart, sensitive, and sound like a wonderful husband and father. Zealot, don’t let something special get away from you because you’re young, passionate and eager. Good women, as well as good men, are rare these days.
October 7, 2006 at 11:43 pm
OK, I’ll play. Actually I’m a bit of all four. I can’t think of any actor or person of note that I resemble. I guess when I came out of the mould they were so horrified at what they saw that the mould was immediately shattered. I’m 6′ even, 203 lbs (could use to loose 15-20), hazel eyes, brown hair (that’s “turnin’ gray and turnin’ loose”) that I keep in a short military cut. Paula says I have a dark complexion (Dad was Texan, Mom was Australian, so I don’t know where that comes from). Since I’m nearly 49 (21 Oct), I do have a bit of a gut, but I can still see my shoes when I look down. Yes, I have been approached for advice on women, do treat my significant other like gold [well, silver, at least ; ) ], have been told I missed my calling as a professor, am a total gentleman, have a good(?) sense of humor, Paula says I “carry myself well, don’t sprawl when I sit on the couch and can carry on an intelligent conversation,” so I guess that could pass for what might be considered sophistication. I used to smoke a pipe (curved stem briar w/ cherry-flavored tobacco). I prefer jeans shorts and a pullover shirt, but do know how (and when) to “dress to the nines.”
I like tinkering with broken stuff (cars, appliances, etc), watching classic movies, solving the problems of the world with Paula over a glass of wine, reading, and target shooting (pistol and rifle). For physical activity I run 1 1/2 miles three times a week, like mountain biking*, and kayaking for exercise.
*There are no mountains where I live so most of my riding is on level, off-road trails, but a ride for me is 15 miles.
Well, I hope that answers a few questions and I guess might end a few fantasies. I just hope it doesn’t cause any nightmares.
October 8, 2006 at 12:27 am
Thanks guys! It’s always nice being able to picture those we’re in correspondence with. I can’t say that I didn’t have different images of each of you in mind. Although Z, I have to say, as a much younger woman than K Reeves, I would have had a tremendous crush on him if I were born 10-15 years earlier and I absolutely loved the movie Lake House! You’d probably have the same reaction to the movie “Out of Africa” but show it to a woman, and you’ll have tears. I’ve only been able to watch it once! I happen to be of the Magnum PI (Tom Selleck) generation. I’m quite a bit younger than Tom Selleck is, but not so much that I don’t have a complete and total crush on him. My husband teases me about it all the time … calling Tom my first and true love! That’s so silly, because for me, my husband is. Tom Selleck, like my husband, you, Big Jake, DJ, and Eagle, is all about integrity and honor. It’s a huge turn on for me and obviously is for any woman out there with a brain. You guys absolutely rock our worlds! I have to say that the best thing about on line communication is that one gets to know more about a person before looking at them and making a snap judgement. I know there are many people on line who lie or make themselves out to be more than they are, but I don’t feel that from you guys.
Lovesamerica, when I was in my late teens and early 20’s I lived in Marietta, GA and worked for a property management firm on the outskirts of Atlanta when I was home from college. The problem with Atlanta is that there’ve gotta be 4 women for each guy there. I think Dobbins Air Force base is still open. Call the base and see if you and a few of your girlfriends can go to the club on post on a Friday or Saturday night. There’s safety in numbers and even though Curious thinks I’m pimping, I am absolutely not. I met my husband at a club and he is like Z, BJ, and DJ … and Eagle – he’s an awesome man. If Dobbins is closed (they were on the closure list), call Fort McPherson MWR. Don’t go by yourself … take some of your friends. There are great guys out there. Also, stop dissing yourself. Guys are not shallow. You are a beautiful young woman … let yourself shine!
No one has asked what the women in this exchange look like. I have English, Irish, and Cherokee blood in my veins. Z, I had to laugh when you chalked your temper up to your native american heritage. I have a temper … or maybe a zeal for taking the bullies in life down. Could that be my Cherokee heritage? I dyed my hair black in my late teens and everyone I met thought I was American Indian … only with pale skin. I have high cheekbones. I then dyed my hair on the reddish side, and I’m always asked if I’m Irish. It’s funny! I’m just an American girl … hence my name Americanwoman. I love America for all of our pluses and minuses.
October 8, 2006 at 12:36 am
Oops everyone, … I’m older than K Reeves! You probably figured that out … maybe I subconsciously wish I were 10 -15 years younger than K, but then I couldn’t have the total crushes I have on Tom Selleck and while I’m being honest, Sean Connery!
October 8, 2006 at 12:51 am
After I posted the latest message I noted that Big Jake had sent us an email asking where every one was on the new forum. Paula showed me how to sign on (yeesh! I sooooo dislike Yahoo and AOL!) and saw she had posted our picture in the photos window. If you wish to totally satisfy your curiosity on my looks hop on that sight.
October 8, 2006 at 8:24 am
ZEALOT: You wrote:
And Jake, I hope some of the last things I’ve posted haven’t made you think less of me as a man. I don’t have any brothers and like I said, I can’t talk to my dad about anything so what you say I take to heart”.
OK little brother, you asked for it ,now I am gonna give it to you straight. You wrote:
“My dad and I have always had a strained relationship. My career choice has always been a major diappointment for him. He wanted me to go into dentistry and he always reminds me that I could’ve made a lot more money and I had a better life than I do. He’s gotten better over the years but we’re nothing alike. He’s calm and dignified and I was a rebel and I’ve always had a quick temper. I’ve gotten better as I’ve gotten older. He likes to golf, I always wanted to hunt and fish and he would never take me. It must be the indian blood in me. I always wanted to be outdoors. I like being in the woods”.
You can’t talk to your Dad about anything?
Your career choice has always been a major disappointment for him? He would never take you hunting or fishing?
Did you talk to him about it? OH ,I FORGOT YOU CAN’T TALK TO YOUR DAD ABOUT ANYTHING!
It is time for one or both of you to grow up!
I keep asking you to watch “Field of Dreams” for a reason.
Your post #298
296 Big Jake, as always I appreciate you. Sorry about your Dad. I think I saw Field of Dreams a long time ago. It’s about the baseball field, right?
Its about alot more than a baseball field. It is about the relationship between a father and a son.
The pilgrimage that Ray Kinsella goes on after he hears “the voice ” in the cornfield leads to the ultimate goal of reconciliation with his father who died a few years before. Ray has been haunted by the fact that he never reconciled with his father.
I’d say that you should make some time to spend with your father and maybe watch this one together.
I never thought my father was proud of me . He was a quiet guy . He always made sure we didn’t want for anything but like other men of that generation he wasn’t demonstrative with his feelings of affection. In fact I grew up feeling that he was ashamed of me. This was not the case. I felt that he was too busy ,too tired from work ,not interested in what I did,whatever.
We never had a heart to heart conversation. I was always trying to win his approval or at least his attention.
Well ,life went on, I got married and we had four kids. When little Louie was born my wife Carmen suggested that my parents should be his Godparents. We had them over for dinner 15 years ago in February. They were so proud ,especially my Dad. I will always remember the look on his face as he held the baby that night.
A week later he wasn’t feeling well and was admitted to the hospital. He had pains in his legs .The doctors began treating him for phlebitis. It turned out to be pancreatic cancer. He never made it out of the hospital to baptize the baby. A liver biopsy went terribly wrong and he went into shock.
I made it to the hospital on the night he died. I got there while he was still alive. He was attached to a respirator. I didn’t know if he was still with us as the machine was assisting his breathing .
I held his hand looking for a response but his eyes looked glazed over. I began praying over him. I wasn’t much of a praying man at the time but I prayed The Lords Prayer out loud. I was shocked when my Father squeezed my hand.
That was the last interaction I had with my father.
After my dad passed, I went into a depression.
And I was angry,very angry. I went for counseling. Counseling is very interesting in its methodology. The therapist had me go back to age 3 and asked me for my earliest recollection of my father. I recalled walking with him to the store but I WAS RUNNING TRYING TO KEEP UP WITH HIM. I had been trying to catch up to him my whole life.
That week I saw Field of Dreams for the first time. I WATCHED IT ABOUT 30 TIMES over the next two months -when everyone went to bed,on a Saturday when no one was home,ANYTIME I was alone . EVERYTIME I watched it ,I broke down. I wish I had seen it with my father.
About a month later I was riding home from work.
I carpooled with my brother-in-law. I was in that twilight state between sleep and just dozing off when I guess I dreamt my Father’s hand grab hold of my hand and gently squeeze it.
It felt so real ,I thought ,it couldn’t be a dream , I was awake. Maybe he was telling me he was ok and to stop mourning him.
I was watching some home movies of my first birthday. My dad was holding me in his arms . He was smiling and kissing me. I never noticed this type of affection. Then I remembered my dad staying up all night when I was sick with high fevers, studying with me when I had finals,taking me to baseball games and movies, making a special trip by bus to buy me a first baseman’s mit. I remember having a catch with him and the smile on his face ,
Zach, I am trying to tell you that we don’t have alot of time on this earth. If your father is like mine he is very proud of you.
Sometimes Dads can’t show affection or sons can’t recognize it when it is displayed. Don’t stand on ceremony with your father. You hug your son and let him see your true feelings.Why can’t you do that with your Dad while you have the chance. Do it before you lose that chance forever.
One last thing.
Make sure your Dad gets a check-up . We think we are invincible until something blindsides us. Don’t let it happen.
October 8, 2006 at 1:25 pm
Big Jake: This verbal whipping you gave me has come before you really know anything about my father OR our relationship. You are a deep person. You think and you feel. Your father sounds like he was human and I’m sorry you lost him. I’m glad you resolved your issues with him and I’m sure he really did love you and was proud of you. My father isn’t proud of me or anything I’ve ever done. My Dad is all about image and high society. His brothers and sisters and their kids are all lawyers and doctors. My Dad is a big shot at a prestigous country club and has been for years. I only met my Mom’s family a couple of times in my whole life. She’s from the midwest and they met in college. My Mom could’ve been a school teacher, but my Dad would never let her work. Successful men don’t let their wives work, you know. And although she’s never said it, I think he kept her away from her family. They probably weren’t good enough and she never talked about them. She avoids any conversation about them. She does everything my father tells her to. Including hosting stupid little parties around their swimming pool. We grew up in a gated community. You should see my parents house. My father was prepping me for his mould as far back as I can remember. I told you I was a rebel. He’s why. I never wanted to go to college but that was shoved down my throat. To avoid it, I joined the Army as soon as I graduated. After I got out, I didn’t know what I wanted to do, but I got my own apartment. My wife’s family owns a carpentry and landscaping business and I got a job there before I met her. Any affection I learned I learned from them. Her older brothers, Vic, Tony, and Frank and their father took me in and treated me like family from the get go. Caroline used to come out to jobs and bring us food and drinks. They started joking with me that she was coming out more than she ever did and she never dressed the way she did when she came out until I started working there. Caroline was beautiful, and when they hinted that I should ask her out I did. I fell in love with her immediately. Do you think my Dad was happy about that? He never accepted her either. Her family treats me like another son and I used to hang out there all the time. My Dad hated it. He told me one time that if I kept hangin around those “italians” I would end up like them. I told him I hope so, because I sure the HELL don’t want to end up like you. When Caroline and I got married her family gave us a huge wedding. It was awesome. My Dad and his family show up and act like it’s a low-class beer bash. It kind of was, but these people are so different then the icebergs I came from. Anyway, by that time, I had already graduated from fire school (which my Dad never came to) and I had some pretty roudy friends show up and a few guys I met in the Army. My dad would never drink beer from a bottle. He always has to pour it in a glass. He’s such a pain in the ass. I remember at the reception I was at the bar and was laughing it up with Vic and Frank and some other friends, and I had a beer in my hand. I noticed my Dad looking at me with a shitty look on his face. I held the beer bottle up to him, downed it and thought, There, you asshole. Thanksgiving at my Dad’s house was always a treat. We all had to dress up and you could hear a pin drop at the table. I go to Caroline’s the first year we met, and there’s tons of people there, balancing plates on their laps, laughing, drinking, hugging. We’d get a card game going afterwards. I loved it. When I beat up that guy that beat up my sister, I was pretty scared. It was stupid and I went to my Dad and told him that I might be getting into some trouble. He got PISSED and slapped me in the face and told me I better never do anything to disgrace this family. What a guy, huh? And you want me to watch a movie with him? Ha! Don’t make me laugh. I’d probably end up choking him before it was done. He had some really consoling words when Caroline died. He put his hand on my shoulder after her funeral and said, Sorry son, I know you loved her, but you’ll find someone else. All I wanted to say to him was f— you. I still visit my parents and Dad and I still don’t really talk that much. I wish things were different, but I don’t think they ever will be. My sister, on the other hand, is the golden child. She went to Penn State and got a degree in finance. She married a hot shot executive officer at a local business. Drives a Lexus. She even looks like my Dad. Blonde hair, no one would ever know we were brother and sister. My Dad even told me one time that he thought they gave him the wrong baby at the hospital. I look too much like my Mom for that to be true, but he was just being an asshole again. His son, the lowly, uneducated fireman that drives a 2nd hand Explorer and a motorcycle. Everyone in the community thinks my Dad is so great. Caroline was always nervous around him. She tried so hard. Coming from the family she did, she would walk in their house and try to hug him and he’d freeze up. What a jerk. I’m going to think alot about what you said, but so many things have happened between me and my father that I doubt it will change. He’s never told me he loved me, but he has told Josh, my son. He’s good to him. He treats him better than he ever treated me. I really believe if he could’ve picked anyone else to be his son, he would’ve. Another thing, I learned a lot about carpentry and landscaping working with Caroline’s brothers. You should see the deck I put on the back of my house. I’m really proud of it. It has three levels and is pretty fancy. When My Dad saw it he didn’t even act impressed. He said it was nice, but that was it. He acts like if you make your living doing manual labor it’s because you’re too stupid to do anything else. I don’t know. He gets to me. You suggest counseling. Suggest it to my father.
October 8, 2006 at 2:16 pm
All of You, I never told you before that I was in the military because the dipshit that used to get on here seemed to have a real attitude toward this soldiers, this country and especially americanwoman. At that time I didn’t want to give him anymore ammo. He’s hasn’t been around for awhile, and I don’t care if he reads anything about me anymore and I don’t care what he says or thinks. Just thought I’d clarify that.
October 8, 2006 at 2:54 pm
Re: Big Jake 482: You can’t judge a book by it’s cover and it’s good to know what was written in the previous book(s) in the series before you make an evaluation of the characters.
I’ve known waaaaay too many people that put status over family relationships. You have my heartfelt sympathy for your lack of fatherly approval.
I had a mix of Dad’s approval and disapproval. When younger, I dropped out of college and worked “oilpatch” related jobs in my hometown, strike one. I married a gal that he didn’t think much of (shoulda listened!), strike two. When things got dicey in the late 70s I joined the Air Force, first base. I got out after nine years and went back to college, second base. I married Paula who had two kids of her own, third base. I had Mom and Dad move in with us for the last of their years, home run.
In my youth Dad was always grading papers or making exams for his college geology classes. Usually the TV was on some game. When camping he had a fishing pole in his hand and was out on the lake. Thus, I never liked sports (I felt he was more interested in the games than me) and going fishing was an ordeal (“Dad it’s hot and I’m hungry.” His standard reply, “One more cast.”) I didn’t get an inkling of approval until after I had my degrees (BS & MS) and had a steady job.
Mom made no effort to hide the fact that I was her favorite of the four kids. I’ll admit to being a “Momma’s boy.” Mom and I would talk for hours. I’d watch and help her in the kitchen, so I did not starve when I moved out at 19. I could cook and had a waiting list of roommates tired of fast food. Dad, I felt, was stand-offish, Mom was always there, but I had a strong, independent streak that bordered on rebellion. However, of the four, I gave them the fewest problems at home. I was always proud and confident that I could clean up my own messes.
The moral(?) of the story is you sometimes never know what a parent really thinks of you. You have your perception of their immediately obvious feedback mixed with your emotions at that time. Times that they shake their heads when we recount a tale or experience may range from “You dummy!” to “I wish I had made that choice at your age.” There are times we find out which it was at births of grandchildren and other times when our parents are on their deathbeds. Some things go unspoken and some are best left unsaid.
Zach, you have done the right thing by living your life the way YOU think is right and letting your Dad know you could care less if he is disappointed. Maybe in years to come he will admit that you did OK for your self, then perhaps not. I can tell you’re not holding your breath. Good for you, keep breathing. Your Dad may not see the error of his ways in this life, but you have the satisfaction of knowing you did what you could. Continue to be “the bigger man” by acting as if his opinions of you don’t matter a flip, be yourself, and “kill him with kindness.” It’s hard to stay mad at someone if all they do for you is kind, selfless, and good.
October 8, 2006 at 6:34 pm
ZACH:
First I want to apologize if I talked out of turn .I never meant to give you a verbal whipping just a wake up call if you needed it.
When I said “It is time for one or both of you to grow up, I obviously didn’t know the details of your relationship.
As you are aware ,I have alot of respect for you as a man. Your courage ,decency,and honor ring out with everything you write.
I don’t know what your father’s problem is but I think the problem is his ,not yours. Unfortunately , his problem causes you pain.
I think you have to let him know how you feel without raging like a pack of hemorrhoids.
Did you ever talk to your mom about any of this?
What about your Native American roots? Your inner strength comes from that heritage too.
I believe you are a big enough man to address this problem . You have made a life for yourself. You have chosen your profession. You raise your son and are responsible for his welfare and upbringing. surely, he has to respect that.
He has to respect you as a man. He may disagree with you about your choices but he has to respect them because they are honorable and good,and they are your choices.
I come from an Italian -American family like Caroline’s.So does my wife. I know the closeness that you are talking about.
And Jesus was a carpenter as was St.Joseph.
It is apparent that this situation has deeply hurt you and is in need of healing.
My suggestion is that you copy what you posted here in #483 ,clean it up a bit (take out the confrontational references), incorporate it in to a letter to your father. Then decide if you
want to send it to him.
If you decide to send it ,this will give him a chance to reflect on the situation .In other words ,the ball will be in his court.
October 9, 2006 at 10:28 am
Big Jake: This situation has always bothered me. I thought about it all day yesterday and it made me sick to stomach. I always wanted a real Dad. Someone like you. Maybe things would’ve been different if I had a brother. Caroline’s family is still close to a degree. Her mother told me once that if I ever got married again that she would treat my new wife like another daughter. They are the most loving people. I see her brothers, especially Vic, quite often. Sometimes I’ve felt funny when I’ve been out with a girl and bump into them. They love Josh, and Josh loves them more than my family. They’re loveable people. My family is cold. I asked my mother about her family and the only thing I really know is that I’m Pawnee. I don’t even know how to spell it. She doesn’t share that much about her past. When I lived at home and my father and I would get into it, she would yell at us to stop and she’d cry. I was a handful when I was younger. I’ll admit that. I’m sorry I didn’t tell you the truth about the Army, but that wasn’t the best part of my life either. I was a mixed up kid trying to figure myself out and get away from who my father wanted me to be. I joined when I was a senior in High School and my father tried to use his pull with people to nullify it. Didn’t work. He’s always made me feel like he’s ashamed of me. You say I’m honorable. I’ve done some things I’m not very proud of, but I don’t like to hurt people. I never knew how affectionate I was until I met Caroline. I probably sound like a sissy, but I really enjoy hugs. I like love. It’s comforting. I hug my mother and my sister, but my Dad, I don’t know if I could. I’m sorry I went off like I did in the other post, but it just hit a chord. I’ve never sworn at my father, but I’ve wanted to. I take that back, I did when I was a teenager a few times. But he’d provoke me. That sounds like an excuse, but it’s the truth. I have to get ready for work, so I don’t have much time. Getting on here has helped me. I really don’t have anyone I can talk to about things. My sister is Daddy’s little girl so she always defends him. I’ve been jealous sometimes about that. She thinks I should’ve gone to college, too. She tells me Dad only wanted me to have a good life. But hell, I think I do have good life. I’m not rich with money, but I like what I do. I have a nice home. A great kid. I’m just not elite I guess. Rough around the edges. I’ll think about everything you and DJ wrote and maybe I can talk myself into doing better about this. I just know once I get around him he’ll probably say something to tick me off. I know, maybe you should pray for me. Maybe I should pray for me. Whatever. I’ll give it a shot. It makes me wonder what my Dad’s reaction would be if I told him I loved him. He’d probably fall over.
October 9, 2006 at 10:56 am
zach:
I am praying for your healing.
I wrote:
What about your Native American roots? Your inner strength comes from that heritage too.
Check this out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawnee
October 9, 2006 at 4:15 pm
Big Jake, DJ & Zealot, commenting on the results of my little survey seems out of sorts here, but I do want to say all of you are KEEPERS. Your wives and that Amy are envied. But, none of you answered my question about if you all really talk out in the real world like you do on here. Something tells me Zach doesn’t. But Zach, I grew up in a broken home and my Dad doesn’t give a rip about me, either. He always made comments about the child support he had to pay my mother and would complain about spending any extra money on us when we were with him. That used to make me feel awful bad. I don’t know exactly how you feel, but I know how it feels to think your parent wishes you had never been born. It’s a crummy feeling. I’m supposed to let DJ know that the girl who put in short, pot gut, one hair on your head wants me to apologize to you because she just put that in there for laughs. Give us some advice on how to get guys to open up to us like you do. All we usually get is a lot of he-man attitude. That is totally not sexy. Tell us what kinds of music you like. What do you do for fun? Do you like it when a woman initiates things or do you think she’s trampy if she does? Don’t mean to interview you, but it would be nice to get some honest opinions from men that don’t have an agenda. Thanks guys.
October 9, 2006 at 9:32 pm
LovesAmerica # 489: Sorry, I was following in the style of response for Big Jake and Zach. OK, here’s my “two-cents worth.”
The short answer (impossible from a Texan, since we LOVE to talk!) is, Yes, I do talk the same way in person as on-line. I may sound wiser(?) on-line than in person because I can edit my thoughts; I do have problems with brain/mouth synchronization at times.
Why do we open up to you more on-line? I think that was touched on by Big Jake. It’s the anonimity-thing. We know the worst we’ll receive if someone doesn’t like a post/opinion of ours is a “curious” reply. Plus, we’re males. We enjoy being told we’re smart, sensitive, helpful, etc. But women do, too. So we just don’t communicate that well at times. OK, a LOT of the time.
Partial problem is that y’all say things in “woman-ese” that could be said an easier way. Example: Her-“Do you think it’s cold in here?” Translation: “I’m kinda cold, would you turn up the heat a little?” Simple, right? Wrong. That can also mean “Would you bring me a blanket? or Would you like to cuddle? or I wish you’d fix that #$&% furnace!”
Men KNOW women are emotional creatures and it scares the bejiggers out of most men. We can usually understand the “waterworks” for certain events (chick-flicks, weddings, etc), but when we did/didn’t do something, please tell us. In addition, we can tell (most of the time) when y’all are upset, but we are not mind readers. Example: Him – “What’s wrong?: Her – (In a tone that would lead the unattentive to relax) “Nothing.” For the experienced, that means there will be no peace in the house that night until the guy figures out what he forgot to do, say, buy, etc. Please tell us what’s wrong. GUYS HATE MIND GAMES!!! And, be prepared to accept a short answer to YOUR questions. More of that mind reading thing. Women will ask a question with, let’s call them “agendas,” that are unsaid, but pertinent to the answer expected. BE upfront and forthright.
Another point to getting a guy to open up. Paula said it best: “You’ve got to make a guy feel important and stroke his ego a little.” Yes, there are some that are “self-starters” in that department. Those are the he-man, I’m-trying-to-impress-you type that you grow tired of in two seconds. You’ve told me what you think of them.
How do you know if he’s worth pursuing? Conversation. If you can talk about anything, you can talk about, well… anything. That’s where it’s “on you.” You’ve got to be knowledgable in a wide array of subjects. How do you learn? You’re doing it! Reading forums, asking questions, and seeking more than the best location for nails.
Music: I’m a 70s & 80s rocker. I might be Texan, love jeans and boots, and have a black Stetson, but I cannot stand country music. Groups: varied – Rush, Boston, Led Zepplin, Heart, Aerosmith, Pink Floyd, Foreigner, Styx, Moody Blues, Enya, Allan Parsons Project, Metallica, ZZ Top, to name some in my CD collection.
Fun, as mentioned in # 478: “I like tinkering with broken stuff (cars, appliances, etc), watching classic movies, solving the problems of the world with Paula over a glass of wine, reading, and target shooting, … mountain biking and kayaking…”
Do we like it when the woman takes the lead? I do. I like being “jumped” ocasionally, but prefer that Paula be aware of what I’m doing at the time. Be advised, we guys can get into what we call our “zone,” which is a state of concentration of a certain task at-hand. Sometimes it’s not obvious, so that playful nibble on the ear that would normally “turn up the heat” is not well received.
Do we think bad of women that do take the initiative? It depends on how prudish/hypocritical the guy is. If he thinks it’s not OK for woment to flirt, but sees nothing wrong with his methods, then you might have a problem with him. I personally think it’s a bit of equal rights. Yes, a woman is free to flirt, but best be ready for the reply she may receive. On that subject, I do appreciate a “well turned ankle,” but try to not be obvious when admiring a pretty woman. I have personally experienced the flip side and have been leared at by a woman. Believe it or not, I felt uncomfortable. I made a mental note to not ever cause a woman to experience that feeling because of me.
One last item (for this post) on that woman-ese thing; I don’t like silly questions. Example of something Paula does: I’m lying on the couch watching something specific or channel surfing. Her – “What are you doing?” Me – “Oh, I’m just rebuilding a small block Chevy engine here in the den.” Actual translation: “Why are you doing that when we could be doing something else that involves me?”
I call myself a “knight in dull armor.” I’m good, noble, and do my best to be considerate of others, but I’m no angel. Like Zach, we men have all done things we’re not proud of. I do not like being put on a pedestal by Paula or any one else. I prefer to be on the ground that way if I do something stupid, I won’t have too far to fall.
There. That should give y’all something to review and comment on.
October 9, 2006 at 11:42 pm
DJ – it certainly does. Lovesamerica, I’ve been where you are. Life didn’t change for me until I got what I thought was a cruddy job because I couldn’t get hired on at a “real” firm to save my life. I was a waitress at Chi-Chi’s in Lawton, OK. I met a lot of great guys. They’d come in regularly and even though it was busy, I could get to know them. I dated a few of the guys and settled on one. DJ is right on in his advice.
Z, your dad is an idiot if he can’t appreciate you for a son. I would be so proud of you! One of my brothers is into the status game and it is pathetic. Have you watched the movie “Parenthood?” Don’t watch it in front of the kids cause there’s a few scenes in there that kids shouldn’t see, but it’s an awesome movie. Mary Steenburgen (or whatever her last name is), says at the end that she basically wants the chaos, roller coaster in life. It means so much to me because I was raised in a military family where everything was in order … but the thing is, it isn’t. I love an immaculate house, ironed clothes, trimmed lawn, and beautiful gardens, but I’ve come to realize that life with kids and a great husband means that lots of times the house is messy (especially when unexpected company arrives), the kids go to school in wrinkled clothes, and there’s constant noise! It truly makes me nuts sometimes, but I know I will miss these days when my last little one leaves the nest … makes me sad to even think about it. So, I know I’ll be the Marie Barone grandmother type … hopefully not so critical of my daughters-in-law. Z, you are an exceptional man. I do not think the same of your dad. I do understand where BJ is coming from. Sometimes you have to accept and really work to love a parent who might not be worthy.
October 10, 2006 at 4:54 am
zealot:
Just thought you’d like to know:
The Flag of the Pawnee Nation
The miniature stars and stripes on the blue field symbolizes America. This is faced by a red wolf’s head, other tribes of the Plains referred to the Pawnee as “wolves” for their cunning and courage. This term translated into Pawnee as “Men of Men”.
At the top and bottom of the flag are three narrow stripes, blue at the outermost, then white and finally red. Below the wolf’s head are a crossed tomahawk and peace pipe or calumet, also in red. The two devices represent peace and war. Finally, below the tomahawk and calumet are eight white arrowheads representing the eight wars in which the Pawnee have fought in the service of the United States – the Indian Wars, the Spanish-American War, both World Wars, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War and Iraqi Freedom.
As an entity, the flag means “Pawnee Indians, in peace and war, always courageous and always loyal to America”.
The flagstaff is an old time Pawnee Indian lance with a genuine flint spearhead.The flagstaff has beadwork mounted on buckskin opposite the blue field. The many colors in the beadwork symbolize our various tribal ceremonies and our people who have gone before us.Attached to the spearhead at the top are four primary eagle feathers represent the four Pawnee bands: the Chaui, “Grand”; Kitkehahki, “Republican”; the Petahauerat, “Tappage”; and the Skidi, “Wolf.”
A sprig of cedar should be attached to the staff during Homecoming, Armistice Day, Christmas, and on occasians of state. We use cedar in sacred ceremonies, and use it also for prayer, Cedar, to us, is a token of prayer and a token of peace. Like the flag of the United States, the Pawnee Indian Flag should never be desecrated and it should never touch the ground.
©Copyright Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma.
P.O. Box 470 Pawnee,Ok 74058
For problems or questions regarding this web contact [webmaster@pawneenation.org]
last updated July 21, 2005
July 21, 2005
“Courage and Honor, Spirit and Guts”
May God Bless The Pawnee Nation
May God Bless The United States of America
October 10, 2006 at 10:47 am
Big Jake: THANK YOU. I can’t explain how I feel right now, because I don’t have a lot of time, but it’s emotional, I can tell you that. Proud. Curious about these people. I tried to connect to the link you put on yesterday, and it wouldn’t come up. I did go to wikipedia and look up some things about the Pawnee. How about that, I did spell it right yesterday. I have always felt more like the indian side of me is the dominant. But my mother is so quiet about things. She’s hard to talk to, too. My dad has controlled her for so long that I think she lost her identity a long time ago. I’m an “intense” person. I don’t know what other word to use to describe myself. I thought about my heritage alot yesterday, and I want to find my Mom’s family. I want to go to them. I actually feel “called” to. Like I should. Does that make sense? I’ll share something else. When I beat the guy up that attacked my sister, I think I could’ve killed him. After I got started I kind of went nuts. It’s almost like I was insane and couldn’t stop. I left him a mess. The scary part, I enjoyed it. He didn’t just beat my sister up, he raped her, too. I couldn’t handle it. I’ll talk more later. Thanks so much. You ARE a brother.
October 10, 2006 at 1:14 pm
Big Jake, forgot to tell you, my indian heritage came in real handy Sunday night building a bonfire. It’a amazing how those Buffalo Bills shirts burn.
🙂
October 10, 2006 at 2:02 pm
Big Jake, Zealot. I know you guys are into something “intense”, but could you please answer our question like DJ did? You don’t have to be as in depth as DJ was, but it would be nice.
Please?
DJ, you sound like one hunk of a neat man and if I knew you Paula would have to keep her eye on me. (I sound terrible don’t I?) Hey, it’s all in fun and truthfully, you’re revealing a lot about how men think.
Thanks. Don’t forget to do this Big Jake and Zach.
October 10, 2006 at 4:41 pm
Americanwoman. Thanks for the comments you made to me. It made me feel good. You are a super lady in my book, and your husband is a lucky man.
lovesamerica. Forgot about you. Sorry. DJ pretty much covered everything and he’s right on. I’d like to talk to him one on one because he seems to know women a lot better than I do. You’re right. I don’t talk to people like I talk on here. I don’t know why I don’t, but I don’t. I get in some good conversations about topics, but I don’t say a whole lot about my feelings. I did to my wife, but she’s probably the only one that ever got that. For fun I like to do anything outdoors. I love to ride my motorcycle. Especially this time of year. Around here the leaves are beautiful. The scenery is awesome. I like the free feeling a motorcycle gives me. I do like to work with my hands. I like to build things. I mentioned my deck. I also built a stone fireplace on one wall in my living room. During the cold Fall and Winter months I burn it every night. There’s nothing I like better than having the fire going, watching a good movie and ordering pizza and wings. I burn wood that I cut and stack myself. I like doing that, too. Music, I like the chili peppers. But like DJ, I do like a lot of the classic rock, and I’ve always liked Eric Clapton. Unlike most guys I know, I do like to slow dance. Maybe I just like to feel close. It’s like a long hug. (Do you see why I don’t talk like this to people. I sound like a sap already.) I do like pretty women, like any honest man would admit, but that isn’t the only thing that gets my attention. I just don’t want to have to throw a bag over her head. I like to keep the meals I’ve eaten down that day. If a woman initiates something, that’s great. Makes it easier for me. However, if she’s going to do that, she better follow through. I hate getting worked up, and then suddenly she wants to slow down. I really hate that. Our gears don’t go into reverse that easily. I’d rather not do anything than do a little of something and have to forget about it. This new style woman wear, the low jeans and the short tops. Looks good on a lot of women, but for the most part it doesn’t. Everyday I see girls in that get up and all I mostly notice is a flabby belly hanging out. Turns me off. I don’t mind a little overweight, but I don’t like fat. Fat does nothing for me. I’m in jeans practically all the time. Who doesn’t wear jeans? Oh I know someone, my Dad. I’ve shared enough about him, and he’s not cool. He’s very uptight. Too tight.
DJ, here’s one for you. Help me out. You know a lot about women. I tell Amy last Thursday that I want to spend the weekend alone with my son. I just wanted to spend some one on one time with him and make sure he’s doing okay. She says, that’s fine. I stop in the hospital to see her yesterday. She’s got attitude. I asked her what’s wrong. Guess what she said? Nothin. I KNOW something is wrong, and I’m thinking that’s it, but who the hell knows? So, now, am I supposed to just keep asking? Because truthfully, it irritates me. I like her, I want to keep seeing her, but, sorry, I’m not in love yet. I could walk away. I’m not needy. She is. Soooo, let me have it DJ.
October 10, 2006 at 6:22 pm
Ah, Grasshopper. It seems that Amy might have a “dark side.” ; ) It’s ultimately up to you to decide if it’s worth putting up with. Relationships are based on communication, trust, and love. I’ve noted the third in the list will not work without the first two.
OK, I’ll provide my insight, but if anything I suggest doesn’t work or makes things worse, promise me you won’t get me on the Jerry Springer Show and beat me up on national TV.
First thing that I would find out is was she really upset with you or just a little miffed compounded by a bad day at work? Either way I would say some “damage control” is in order. HOWEVER, do it on YOUR terms. If she really IS needy, then this is a ploy to get you to react to her beck and call. Suggest a day or evening for just the two of you. Don’t bring up the issue of the weekend with your son. She should get the message that you value the relationship, but will not skimp when it relates to your son’s wellbeing. If she has kids she can relate to that. If she doesn’t, it’s a bit of “Parenting 101.”
At some time or another, do some soul searching on your part. I know Caroline was the one for you. Unfortunately she’s gone. It’s OK to keep her memory alive, but it’s unfair to other women to use her as a “gold standard” for who you think you’re looking for. Example, Paula does things that drives me nuts at times. However, I realize it’s a two way street; I’m not perfect, either. That’s where compromise enters the relationship.
If Amy satifies most of you criteria of who you’d like for a significant other, then proceed with the following in mind. This is where communication (honest and open) is vital on both sides. How is her relationship with your son and vice-versa? Have the THREE of you sat down and discussed the future? Will your work schedules get in the way of taking care of your son as well as the relationship?
Needy, clingy, in my books equals insecure. It’s a trust issue. Amy obviously has something in her past that she needs to deal with before either of you “Go to the next level.” Being open with her about what you’re feeling when with her will establish trust. Make the first move. When it appears she thinking about something, use the old “a penny for your thoughts” line. Corny, Yes, but it opens the door to communication that will build trust as she finds out more about you and your intentions. Let her know upfront you’re willing to help her with any “guy” issues she may still be lugging around, but you have no desire to be “Mr Fix-it” to ALL her problems. As I mentioned in a previous post, be a PAIR, a COUPLE, not two halves. “Partial” people are looking fopr completion to feel whole. My ex was that way. When I realized that all my efforts were for naught, I bailed before she pulled me down with her. Gotta know when to hold ’em and know when to fold ’em.
Some times you must be quick on your feet with “negotiating tactics” to break a stalemate. Example, my daughter’s mother, when we first got together, had BIG problems with my being attentive to ALL guests, male or female, especially female. She would not accept my answer that I was simply being a good host. We had it out. She kept dragging up the same points over and over; we were getting nowhere. Finally, in frustration I dashed a glass of cold water, that I happened to be holding, right in her face. She gasped, absolutely shocked and speechless, and looked at me with an incredulous look. Without missing a beat, I said, “OK, let’s try this from the top, accept this is the way I am and deal with it. I will not waste any more time going over the same ground anymore!” Advisable? It depends. It worked for me in that instance and I earned a modicum of respect from her for my problem solving skills.
“…I’m not in love yet. I could walk away…” OK, let’s use one of the women’s terms. You like her, but do you “like her, like her?” (and the gals wonder why we cringe when we think about getting into a new relationship!) So, does the way she acts make you want to run for the hills or just sigh and say, “Rot! I’ve got to break in a new one!” Sorry. You don’t just add water (or alcohol) and get a relationship. YOU need to ask yourself some important questions about what you will be willing to put up with and/or accept in a new relationship.
This is a good stopping point for reflection and some Q & A if needed. Sorry if I was too long winded and used too many personal examples. I thought the examples might help to let you see the bumps I’ve hit on the journey of Love are common.
October 10, 2006 at 10:27 pm
Zach. Dump Amy. I love you, I love you, I love you. I will always follow through.
Will you marry me?
I don’t care if your face looks like it caught on fire and someone tried to put it out with a grass rake.
October 11, 2006 at 1:03 am
lovesamerica: Without hurting your feelings I’d appreciate it if you’d stop writing this stuff. I think you’re a nice girl and I know you like to have fun with your friends at the office, but the jig is up. I played along with your little survey so now let’s just stop it at that. Don’t you think it’s a little High School? If you’re really 23 and not 16 you need to get some maturity. And I’m not saying that to make you mad. I just really don’t like it. I got on here and wanted to respond to DJ about something and I read that. Come on. You’re too old for this. Let’s just quit it, okay? No hard feelings.
October 11, 2006 at 2:19 am
… and then it got weird.
Zach: I apologize if I have been an unwitting (and I might add unwilling) participant in a possible ploy to get to you. If you would wish to contact me privately, perhaps Quay can be the middle man. Keep in touch.
October 11, 2006 at 2:45 am
Zach, I’m sorry. There is no ploy to get to you. I was messing around and got a little silly. What I meant was I WOULDN’T CARE if your face looked like that because everything else about you is so attractive. That’s what I meant and yes, it did sound bad when I read it back. I really am sorry and I won’t do it ever again. DJ, I’m sorry to you also. I love all of you and don’t think bad of me because I got carried away goofing around. Maybe it was childish but it wasn’t meant to be. Zach, I didn’t think it would bug you like that. I really am sorry. And I really am 23. Forgive me, okay? I didn’t mean to do anything bad. I hope Big Jake and American Woman don’t get mad at me. I’m sorry guys. Just googing off. Honest. It won’t happen again.
October 11, 2006 at 4:26 am
Now Now kiddies..
Lets cut out the silly stuff.
So lovesamerica, How did your date go?
October 11, 2006 at 5:39 am
Zach:
You wrote:
“I tell Amy last Thursday that I want to spend the weekend alone with my son. I just wanted to spend some one on one time with him and make sure he’s doing okay. She says, that’s fine. I stop in the hospital to see her yesterday. She’s got attitude. I asked her what’s wrong. Guess what she said? Nothin. I KNOW something is wrong, and I’m thinking that’s it, but who the hell knows? So, now, am I supposed to just keep asking? Because truthfully, it irritates me. I like her, I want to keep seeing her, but, sorry, I’m not in love yet. I could walk away. I’m not needy. She is.”
First ,let me preface my comments by saying that I have been married for 27 years.
I have had a similar exchange with my wife each and every month of those 27 years like clockwork. After the first few times , you develope a strategy called self preservation or contact avoidance or I’M GOING TO THE HARDWARE STORE .BE BACK LATER.
It really got rough recently .My wife started getting “hot flashes” . Her Change of Life has begun. When she starts up with “Its too Hot !” and then 5 minutes later ,It’s freezing in here! I head for the hills.
In your case , don’t forget that Amy lost her husband less than a year ago. So besides the physiological reasons for her behavior ,she needs some reassurance that she will not be “abandoned ” or “deserted ” again.
Psychologically, death of a spouse is seen as abandonment on a subconscious level by the survivor.
I think you have to have the “open and honest” talk with her. You need to set some ground rules as the relationship advances to a more serious level. See DJ’s suggestions in #497.
And face facts, you are pretty happy with Amy
so why “walk away ” and be miserable?
October 11, 2006 at 5:53 am
Zealot:
The Pawnee (also Paneassa, Pari, Pariki) are a Native American tribe that historically lived along the Platte, Loup and Republican Rivers in present-day Nebraska. They refer to themselves as “Chaticks-si-Chaticks”, meaning “Men of men”. In the 18th century they were allied with the French and played an important role in limiting Spanish expansion onto the Great Plains, defeating them decisively in a battle in 1720.
Pawnee In the 19th century, epidemics of smallpox and cholera wiped out most of the Pawnee, reducing the population to approximately 600 by the year 1900; as of 2005, there are approximately 2,500 Pawnee.
If the total population was only 600 in 1900 and 2500 in 2005 ,you may be related by blood or marriage to many in the tribe.
October 11, 2006 at 6:06 am
lovesamerica:
You asked if I was this open face to face with other men . The answer is sometimes.
When I go fishing with my friend Tom Who I have known since kindergarten, we talk about alot of things. There are certain lines we do not cross. Personal matters concerning our wives comes to mind.
I did speak to hinm about his relationship with his father after my father died. I wanted to save him some “what ifs” later on.
October 11, 2006 at 12:25 pm
Big Jake: The date wasn’t that great. I had a nice time but he’s not my type. He’s got a nice personality but he’s shorter than me and I don’t like that. A guy doesn’t have to be a giant, but I don’t want to look like one when I’m next to a man. He’s hanging around my desk alot now so I probably never should’ve gone out with him. I’m not going again so it will probably hurt his ego whe he asks me again and I say no. I can’t help it. It would go no where. I still feel bad about Zach. I know it sounds weird, but I do have a crush on him. I know it’s dumb. I should stay away from this website because you people all sound so terrific and it’s like I know you all personally. The only thing I don’t know is what you look like. I can only imagine from your descriptions. He’s 6’3″, works out, black hair, blue eyes, affectionate, good job, nice home…who wouldn’t want him? Do you think I’m immature?
October 11, 2006 at 12:50 pm
Again, I’m really sorry Zach and I will never talk about you again on here. I think you’re great and I don’t want you to look at me like I’m some kind of childish weirdo.
Very Sorry.
October 11, 2006 at 1:45 pm
lovesamerica:
Stop the mea culpas,already. zealot said no hard feelings.
We have become like a family here. I am sure Zach has forgotten it already. We all do silly things at times but if you are considerate of the feelings of others all that is necessary is a simple apology and we move on.
We all care about you.
October 11, 2006 at 1:49 pm
lovesamerica:
How tall are you and how tall is the guy you went out with?
October 11, 2006 at 2:10 pm
Big Jake, I really like all the information you’re giving me about the Pawnee. I have always been interested in my background but getting it out of my mother is difficult. I’m going to bring it up to her when I get the chance. I may need you in the future to help me find some things out. You are a walking encyclopedia. You and DJ are great buds.
I find that when I try to get on alot of websites, the page not found comes up. When I try getting into your private forum that always happens. Is it my computer, or the website? I’m going to ask some of my friends that know more about computers than I do and see what I can find out.
You an DJ gave me some good advice about dealing with Amy, and I would like to share some things because I am having some problems with her. Her crying is getting to me. I don’t understand it. I ask her why she’s crying and she says she doesn’t know. Well, if she doesn’t know, how am I to know???? I don’t want to be with some basket case. I care for her, but she wants me there all the time. She has this thing about always wanting to fall asleep in my arms and it’s driving me nuts. There’s more to it than what I can get into right now. I’m starting to feel the guilts about her and from what I see I haven’t done anything to feel guilty about. Last night she told me she loved me. I didn’t say it back because I don’t. I’m starting to feel like shit about that. I also feel like what DJ said about running for the hills. I do feel guilty because I did pursue her. I was/am very physically attracted to her. She is a good conversationalist. We have things in common, but this crying thing has got to go. Or I will. I’ve got a busy day today and I may not get back here until much later. Please help me out with her if you can.
lovesamerica..apology accepted. Forget about it. I have. You’re okay.
DJ: Any man who can throw a glass of water in his wife’s face and live to tell about it is either the luckiest man on Earth or a God.
October 11, 2006 at 4:13 pm
Big Jake, I’m 5’5″ and I hate to say it, about 135 pounds. All my friends are tiny and wear a size 4 and 6. I feel big and dumpy around them. The guy I went out with is probably around 5’3″. He’s short. I wore flat shoes and I still felt like I was towering over him. I like to dance and he suggested we go to a club. TURN OFF!!! I said I was too tired for that. I can’t slow dance with a guy shorter than me! That’s gross. A girl wants to be covered by the guy she dances with. He’s got small hands, too. He tried to hold my hand and that was even grosser. I want my hand to be small in the man’s hand. I don’t like big, fat guys, either, but I would like him to be at least a couple inches taller than me and weigh more. You’re 5’9″, DJ is 6′, and well, we know how big Zach is. You’re all big guys. And you all sound good looking. You’re italian. All the italian guys I know are really sexy looking and they all have pretty girlfriends. You probably looked like Zach when you were his age and your wife was probably a hotty, too. Guys like you and Zach would walk right past me. If I would’ve been the xray tech that took care of Zach he wouldn’t have noticed me. I don’t know what DJ is, but his posts are funny. And he’s smart like you are. I’d take any one of you if I could, if want to know the truth. I know you and DJ are married and too old for me, Zach is probably too old, too. I know that. The things I want and like in a man, well, those guys don’t want me. I get all the geeks and nerds. I’m not kidding. No jock would ever want me unless he was handicapped and had to settle. I’m not ugly. I have a nice complexion and I make up and dress nice. I just don’t have the hot look. I’m telling you the truth. I don’t have what it takes to get what I would like to have. And I’m never going to wear low jeans and short tops again!! I always tried to suck my stomach but that’s hard to do. I’m an eater. I like pizza and wings and chips and all the fat stuff. Cookies, cakes, bread. I’ve tried to diet. I keep trying to talk myself into it, but I’m not very desciplined. I’ll go good for a couple of days and then I cave. I’ll tell you who I’m built like. Kirsty Alley. Not the tub that she was, but the little tub she is. Big. I’m big.
October 11, 2006 at 4:47 pm
Big Jake, I lied. I’m really about 165 pounds.
Sorry.
I’m only 40 pounds less than Zach. Gross. That guy I was out with was probably 125 pounds. I bet people were laughing at us all over the place. The pear shaped girl and the runt.
October 11, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Re: Lovesamerica 511. You say you do office work. What kind? As in what time does it leave for you each day? Where you live. Are you close to a city park, athletic field, and/or gym of some sort? Are you on good terms with other female coworkers or are they too shallow/busy with their own lives to establish a “buddy” to make time with to go walking, swimming, working out a the gym, or some other outside physical activity?
Have you thought about starting a weight watchers chapter where you work? There’s safety in numbers and misery loves company. The ladies where I work started a chapter and all have done very well. Diets are made to fail. You just need to get a little more will power and eat healthier. I probably won’t be telling you anything you haven’t heard, but instead of the chips, cookies, etc, try fruit, granola bars, and yogurt. You can still eat what you like, just be sensible about it.
Don’t improve your looks for someone else, do it for YOU. If you love and LIKE what you see in the mirror, others will, too. I’m not implying that is the case, but it could be a little bit subconsciously.
Just getting up and out of the house/apartment will help getting you physical. Go to flea markets, yard sales, gun shows, and home improvement expos. Don’t just pile up on the couch with a bag of chips in front of the TV on Lifetime. Volunteer for weekend stuff at the church, shelters, drives for the needy. You’ll possibly meet other GOOD HEARTED people at such events. Key is, DO something!
Remember the saying that there are three kinds of people in the world, those that MAKE things happen, those that WATCH things happen, and those that say “What just happened?” I’m (playfully) challenging you to make something happen.
Funny, years ago my daughter would email me for advice and I’d sign off on my replies as “Dear Shabby.” ; )
October 11, 2006 at 9:52 pm
lovesamerica:
I previously posted that I go to the Gym 2-3 times a week and need to lose 25-30 lbs.
I AM FIGHTING MY “Middle age spread”. yes it gets worse with age!
You need to set realistic goals and stick to them. If you are 165 lbs at 5’5″ tall you need to lose say 30 lbs.
If you join a gym say Bally’s and you go and work out 2-3 times a week for 1-1.5 hrs each time, eliminate fried foods and junk foods(potato chips ,french fries anything with excessive fat doughnuts,cakes & cookies )you can reasonably expect to lose 1/2 lb per week.
Thats 26 lbs in one year. Now here is the best part- you will have transformed (shaped)your body by the exercise /weight training . you will be a firm and shapely 135-140 pound woman.
(hubba hubba catagory!)
3000 calories =1 lb of body fat. cut or burn 3000 calories and you build lean muscle mass .
That is your goal.
You have to eat ,starving yourself doesn’t work,
substitute fish and chicken(without the skin) for beef . have beef 1x per week. Increase veggies ,both raw and cooked. lots of salads and fruit for snacks.
get a calorie counter and chart. FOR AT LEAST THE FIRST WEEK WRITE DOWN WHAT YOU ARE EATING.
get a good bathroom scale and weigh yourself in the morning,every morning .Chart your progress.
If you have alot of late night snacks ,go to bed early.
drink an 8oz glass of water before meals. drink 7-8 glasses of water per day.
I’ll be your weight loss buddy if you need one.
Good luck!
October 11, 2006 at 10:11 pm
zealot:
Installment #3
History
Francisco Vásquez de Coronado visited the neighboring Wichita in 1541 where he encountered a Pawnee chief from Harahey, north of Kansas or Nebraska. Nothing much is mentioned of the Pawnee until the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries when successive incursions of Spanish, French and English settlers attempted to enlarge their possessions. The tribes however tended to make alliances as and when it suited them. An interesting point to note being that different Pawnee subtribes could make treaties with warring European powers without disrupting the underlying unity; the Pawnee were masters at unity within diversity.
Historian Marcel Trudel has documented close to 2,000 Pawnee (in French, Panis) slaves who lived in Canada until the abolition of slavery at the end of the 18th century, making up close to half of the known slaves in French Canada.
Pawnee father and son, 1912A tribal delegation visited President Jefferson and in 1806 Lieutenant Zebulon Pike, Major G. C. Sibley, Major S. H. Long, amongst others began visiting the Pawnee villages. The Pawnee ceded territory to the American government in treaties in 1818, 1825, 1833, 1848, 1857, and 1892; in 1857, they settled on a reservation along the Loup River in present-day Nance County, Nebraska. Continual raids from Lakota from the north and west and encroachment from American settlers to the south and east lead to the abandonment of their Nebraska reservation. In 1875 they moved to Indian Territory, (Oklahoma), a large territory that had served as a ‘dumping ground’ for tribes displaced from the east and elsewhere. Many Pawnee men joined the United States Cavalry as scouts rather than face the ignominy of reservation life and the inevitable loss of their freedom and culture. In the 20th century, Christianity supplanted the older religion.
In 1780 the Pawnee are thought to have numbered around 10,000, but by the 19th century, epidemics of smallpox and cholera wiped out most of the Pawnee, reducing the population to approximately 600 by the year 1900; as of 2005, there are approximately 2,500 Pawnee.
Recent history
The Oklahoma Indian Welfare Act of 1936 established the Pawnee Business Council, the Nasharo (Chiefs) Council, and a tribal constitution, bylaws, and charter. An out of court settlement in 1964 awarded the Pawnee Nation $7,316,096.55 for undervalued ceded land from the previous century. Bills such as the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act of 1975 have gone some way to address the mistakes of the past and help the Pawnee Nation regain some of their pride and culture. Today the Pawnee are still celebrating their culture and meet twice a year for the inter-tribal gathering with their kinsmen the Wichita Indians and the four day Pawnee Homecoming for Pawnee veterans in July. Many Pawnee return to their traditional lands to visit relatives, craft shows and take part in powwows.
October 12, 2006 at 12:36 am
Zach:
you wrote:
I have always felt more like the indian side of me is the dominant. But my mother is so quiet about things. She’s hard to talk to, too. My dad has controlled her for so long that I think she lost her identity a long time ago. I’m an “intense” person. I don’t know what other word to use to describe myself. I thought about my heritage alot yesterday, and I want to find my Mom’s family. I want to go to them. I actually feel “called” to. Like I should. Does that make sense?”
Zach, I wrote ” What about your Native American roots? Your inner strength comes from that heritage too.” Your people on your maternal side of the family have suffered much. As I have noted previously, only 600 Pawnee survived as of the turn of the century. Your people’s Spirit is in need of healing,of Wholeness.You must meet your relatives on your maternal side of the family . Interestingly ,this may be the entire 2500 members of thr Pawnee Nation. What you are feeling ,the need for “Wholeness” is that Spirit calling you back. The Comunal Spirit needs the same Wholeness. That is what the annual Homecoming is all about(see post #515)
I have posted a writing by Jim Twofeathers ,a
Native American healer. When I read it I thought of you .Pay attention to his words regarding being called back to Oklahoma.
My Walk Within “The Medicine Way” #2
So how does one become a Medicine Person? Some would say that you have to be a young person chosen to apprentice with a Medicine Person and spend years learning how to be one. There is a lot to be said for that and traditionally this seemingly was the method was used by many Medicine People. But the thing you have to understand here is that this is an outside view of the process and when I started walking along this path I too would have told you the same. From this point in time (now) it is very different.
I guess here I have to tell you a little more of my path. I had neither idea of nor desire to become a Medicine Man. Years ago I read about Carlos and his teacher Don Juan and their journey together and Carlos’s walk to become a Medicine Man and no way did I want, suspect or see myself in that role. Then in fact, it all seemed like a very cool fairy tale. Little did I know that I was already on the journey. Even after I began in earnest to look into my heritage I still did not have a clue.
One of the first events in my memory is at sixteen; I discovered hypnotism and the awesome power of the mind! In my mid twenties I married a woman and helped her through hypnotic session work to develop her talent as a trance medium. At the same time I discovered taro cards and became a reader. I moved to Denver and dabbled in Druidism, New Age and Eastern philosophies for a while. Understand that within all of this time I held a “normal” professional computer job and lived what seemed a “normal” life. It was during the early 70’s with Viet Nam and all the upheaval at that time that I got “burnt out” on it all and moved to Idaho to escape and to later meet Bill My first Native teacher. Another pivotal event was that I then divorced and met and married my wife Lorraine and we moved to the small Victorian resort town of Eureka Spring AR; that I had fallen in love with as a child during a vacation visit.
Eureka had an “air” of healing Spirit about it and here my Spirit walk began to bloom.
I joined a group of people working on their emotional beings as a structured group. Through this group I again began to “read” people and gain some the “healing tools” for working with others. I then joined with a group of men who wanted to work on men’s issues and to talk about how it is to be a man. This proved to be a major turning point in my life and the beginning of a powerful reconnection to Spirit. During this time I gained the biggest part of my tools for doing Medicine work. Even so I still didn’t have a clue this was what was going on. A Lahkota trained man taught us men how to run a Sweat Lodge. Over a couple of years we had several Lodges and after one Lodge while I was standing outside looking up at the stars The hand of the Great Spirit came and hit me right between the eyes and knocked me to the Earth. Though startled and dazed I began to remember that a man that I turned down had ask if I had wanted to go to a Sacred Mountain in South Dakota and do a Vision Quest.
Within a week I was on the on the road with this other man heading to S. Dakota. When I arrived on the mountain I met and spent time with several Medicine Men all of which had unbelievable teachings for me and then there was the mountain itself, the biggest teacher of all.
We arrived about 1am in the morning and I, still being “wired” from an eighteen hour drive cautiously walked around the sleeping encampment and found a small out of the way knoll and began an instinctive walk Sun Wise (clockwise) in mediation. As a late partial moon began to rise and light up the camp an empty area next to the camp and a just a little distance from me took on an unusual attractive light about it. Even the dew on the grass was a different color. I had this strong compelling urge to walk over and take a look. After a while I did just that and as I was slowly walking over I felt an unbelievable pull to walk into that area and also a great fear of it. So I am standing there on the edge of this area looking and having this conversation in my head. “Should I or shouldn’t I”. I finally just said “to hell with it” and stepped in…………..Pow!…..It was as if a bolt of lighting went through my body! I let out a yelp and ran back to my safe knoll and began my Sun Wise walk. After some time of walking I sort of woke up out of a daze and realized I was walking the opposite direction that I should, counterclockwise. I said no!..no!..no! To myself and began to walk clockwise again. Well as it turned out this happened twice again and I was so shocked that I finally said to myself “It’s time to go to bed I am just too tired”. Next morning I met The Medicine Man I was suppose to work with and he being a man of few words said after to me after a few greeting words “Go and be with him” and pointed to a half breed young man near me. We sat and talked around the fire for along time and with several other Natives. After becoming comfortable I told my story the night before. All of the Indians began bust-a-gut laughing some even rolling on the ground laughing so hard. I felt foolish and wanted to run away. When the young man I was setting with regained his composer he said, “Its all right we were not laughing at you”. “You know that place you stepped into….that was the camping place of the Coyote’s The Heyokas they do “everything” backwards”. “They tricked you and invited you in”. The medicine Man told me I was to Vision on the Heyoka part of the mountain.
My Coyote adventure didn’t end there. I had in preparation for this Vision Quest tied the required Prayer ties (prayer ties are little 2 inch squares of specific colors of cloth with a pinch of tobacco and a little prayer in each and tied along a long string about 3 inches apart) I had tied 606 ties of six different colors which amount to a lot of work and prayers. These ties are when unwound are used to form the 12 feet square boundary of the space up on the mountain within which you are to spend four days and nights seeking your Vision. So of course I had my Vision in broad daylight on the edge of the “Indian parking lot” looking down into a small ravine. Since the beginning of that day I had felt an intensity building and I was seeing lights and things whizzing just beyond my vision past me and I began to shake uncontrollable and suddenly all became quiet and suddenly there at the edge of that parking lot My Great Grandfather stood before me and in a very stern voice told me that I didn’t respect my ancestors and that I didn’t belong there and I must come back to Oklahoma and show them respect and just as suddenly he was gone. I stood there dazed and shaken to the core knowing I had to go back then. I did go back to Oklahoma to a beautiful native sandstone enclosed family cemetery; the locals call the Indian burial grounds. During the time I spent there I made a connection to my ancestors that was far beyond time and space for me. Each of them came to me and spoke with me and I’ll never forget my time there. I found there with an unbroken ness that goes back to the beginning. I felt during that time many of my ancestral Medicine people put their hands on my shoulder and whisper in my ears telling me this is my walk. Even though at the time I could not see myself in that role I left there with the understanding of “I may at times be lonely but NEVER ALONE”.
I, through these experiences and teachings from other teachers began running my men’s group lodges and started running my own lodge. I began to feel people treating me differently and in one moment of absolute shock I knew that they were treating me as a Medicine Man! All of the words of the other Medicine People I had learned from suddenly hit me between the eyes and I understood that they been telling me this since I was a young man. Because of some of the events I spoke about above and many more little events throughout my life I knew that Coyote was my walk. Over the time of walking the Coyote Medicine Walk I have come to know that I didn’t learn to be a Medicine Man I was born to it! I had been told by other Medicine People and now know this myself that we see others born to The Medicine Walk and teach them to recognize this is their walk and to show them some of the tools they will need for their journey. So in closing I must say you are not “chosen” or you don’t go to “Medicine school” but it is just your walk!!!
Jim TwoFeathers
October 12, 2006 at 1:19 am
Big Jake, I am moved by all of this. I do feel pulled to find out my roots. My Mom’s parents died a long time ago. I never knew my grandmother and my grandfather died befoe I was five. I was very little, but I remember sitting on my Grandfather’s lap and he looked very old. I remember thinking that and I remember him calling me “eyes of the wolf”. I told you my eyes are blue. They’re not dark blue, they’re an icey blue, like a wolf. My mother told me one time that my grandfather told her that I would have a war in my spirit and for her not to interfere with that war. That it was necessary. He said for her not to fear, that I would have a time of reckoning. That the two spirits would reconcile and become one. There was a path before me and one day I would follow that path and not to stop me. I would’ve thought it would come before now, but lately I do feel like I need to search out my heritage. I have always been restless. Maybe you are part of my path. Stumbling on this website. All of it. It makes me wonder. The prayer ties sound similiar to a rosary. The part that really got to me, was when he said he went to Eureka Springs. I have been there myself. I went to the Passion Play and they have a huge Jesus statue up on a hill that you can see for miles. I walked up that hill to the statue and remember being awed by it’s size. I always loved being in the woods. I find a peace there that I can’t describe. This may sound funny to you and I don’t even understand it myself, but I have even imagined myself going back in time, having long hair, riding the plains and wearing war paint. I feel a pride in that and I don’t understand why because my mother never encouraged it. Thanks a lot for sending me this info. I believe you and I have a destiny.
October 12, 2006 at 4:39 am
Zach,
you wrote:
“My mother told me one time that my grandfather told her that I would have a war in my spirit and for her not to interfere with that war. That it was necessary. He said for her not to fear, that I would have a time of reckoning. That the two spirits would reconcile and become one. There was a path before me and one day I would follow that path and not to stop me”.
My brother,we are both on a spiritual quest. Its funny, this restlessness in both our spirits pushes us onward.
Did you reflect on your grandfather’s words?
What do you think the two spirits reconciling represent?
October 12, 2006 at 12:11 pm
Big Jake, I have thought about your questions and I will get back to you later. I’m having some major issues with Amy. She’s not the person I thought she was. DJ, talk about a dark side, this girl is way out there. I’m actually a little nervous. I’ll explain more later.
October 12, 2006 at 2:14 pm
DJ & Big Jake, #513, #514 Thank you both for your advice. I know I need to lose weight. Yes, BJ, I would like to be your weight loss partner. How would we do that? I’ve always had a weight problem. I like to eat. I lost about 20 pounds a couple of years ago but I gained it right back. I learned early that nice looking guys don’t like fat women, (read Zach’s #496) ugly guys probably don’t either but we’re what they get stuck with. It’s hard to not eat when you’re hungry all the time. People bring in doughnuts and we order breakfast and lunch aand have it delivered all the time here. There is a gym in our complex, but I’m not going to it. There’s a lot of good looking guys there and it seems like all the women there have great bodies. I’m not working out in front of those people. Maybe I should buy some tapes and do it at home. The girls I work with are nice but they’re fake. They tell me I’m fine the way I am. I think they like me fat because it makes them feel better around me. I’d like to drop it all off but I don’t have good will power. Now with the holidays coming it wil be worse. Turkey and stuffing. I love stuffing and mashed potatoes and gravy. MMMMM…just thinking it about it. Apple pie, pumpkin pie. Sounds great. It will end up on my hips and I’ll hate myself for it afterward. Don’t laugh at me, okay. I really am disgusted with the way I look.
October 13, 2006 at 3:35 am
lovesamerica:
you wrote:
It’s hard to not eat when you’re hungry all the time. People bring in doughnuts and we order breakfast and lunch and have it delivered all the time here.
ok weight loss partner ,here’s how it works.
You have to eat,but you must eat the right things. We, you and I , will enter into an agreement . Lets try it for 2 weeks to start.
We will agree:
1) not to eat junk food
2) drink 7 glasses of water per day
3) replace whole milk with 1% milk
4) no fried foods
5) snack on carrots,& celery
6)write down everything you eat
7)portion control vegetable,meat or fish portion the size of your closed fist and 1 carbohydrate- a baked potato or slice of 12 grain bread
limit fats -buy large red potatoes for baking. they cook up so moist you won’t miss the butter.
Drink diet soda or water no sugary soda!
EXERCISE 3X PER WEEK FOR 1.5 HRS EACH TIME.
Weigh yourself every morning. Feel free to ask questions.
About the gym in your complex, get a baggy sweat suit ,go to the gym . Forget about who is there. Be friendly ,but know that it is not a social gathering. you have work to do.
as you lose weight ,your confidence will increase . Then the guys will start to notice you.
October 13, 2006 at 1:43 pm
lovesanerica:
another good snack is 12 peanuts (in shell)
you have to open them up to eat them as opposed to shelled peanuts. What am I talking about ,you may ask?
It takes time to open the peanuts ,you crack open the shell ,you find the peanut ,you decide if you want to remove the skin or not ,you put the peanut into your mouth and you chew.
With already shelled peanuts you open the jar and eat. I guarantee that with shelled peanuts you will eat alot more than 24 and then move on to the next thing to eat. Shelled peanuts are probably salted so you will need to get something to drink. Water,no ,The salt makes you want something else . Beer or soda.
Thats why I SAY PEANUTS IN THE SHELL. Also ,being that they are in the shell ,you don’t feel the need to finish them all at once. You can go back to them at any time.
Eating urges are psychological not physiological. Hunger is physiological. We must fight urges and feed hunger.
October 13, 2006 at 1:53 pm
lovesamerica:
The other thing I wanted to tell you is that you have to separate your self from your body.
Treat your body like it belonged to someone else you love.
If you had a pet or a car you would take care of it ,wouldn’t you? Do the same with your “body”. Love yourself first. Do not abuse your body by worshiping food. Food is there to enjoy on special occasions but it is a fuel for your body first.
I just came back from the gym so I am a little charged up now. I have to hit the shower and get ready for work . We can do this thing. Are you with me?
October 13, 2006 at 1:54 pm
Big Jake, I want to do this but I am telling you I don’t have very much will power. Just like this morning, a girl brought in frosted brownies and she offered them to us. I turned it down and the other 4 girls in my pod want to know why. I told them my I felt a little sick so they would leave me alone. Now they’re taking orders to call in lunch. They’re no help to me at all. If I do this with you, will you promise not to desert me? How about if I watch what I eat all weekend, and then I’ll get the groceries I need to do this and we’ll go full steam ahead on Monday? I really want to, but I have failed so many times that I don’t think this will work either. I can’t do the gym thing. Those people that go there are the pretty people and I’d probably be made fun of behind my back. It costs a couple hundred dollars and I don’t have the money right now. I’ll think of something for exercise. Any other suggestions? My mom is fat and so’s my sister. We’re all fat in my family. My Mom is always sending me over food and telling me to eat. Guess what? We’re italians so you know about the food thing. I really hate the word fat. I want to be thin like everyone else my age. I was just born with a fat gene. I think the world of you, you know, for reaching out to me like this. I’m going to say special prayers just for you everyday. I woud like to give you a big hug.
Thanks.
October 13, 2006 at 3:25 pm
Big Jake, that guy I went out with last weekend? He wanted to know what I want to do THIS weekend. I told him I was busy and now he’s mad at me. I know he’s mad at me. You guys are just as hard to figure out as us women.
October 13, 2006 at 8:54 pm
Lovesamerica – I know you may think you’re heavy, but you really aren’t. So you can afford to take off some pounds. Most people can. I agree with a lot of what BJ has to say, but I’ll offer one other bit of advice. Change some of your habits because it will help when will power fails. For example, when you go home from work … if you walk into the kitchen to turn on the news and read the mail, you’ll probably end up snacking because you’re hungry. Instead try going to your bedroom to read the mail and watch the news. Change into exercise gear and go for a brisk walk before dinner.
Z – I don’t want to dis Amy because I don’t know her and I don’t like dising women. We can be our own worst enemies. I understand some of her background with losing her husband, etc. However, crying alot and making the guy feel guilty says quite a bit to me. My husband has seen me get teary eyed quite a few times during our 21 years together and he’s seen me flat out cry about 4 or 5 times. I know guys feel totally powerless when we women cry and I really hate crying in front you. Teary eyes show we’re human. Crying … well, it may be my military upbringing coming to the surface … I just hate doing it unless I am alone. Also, the guilt thing. Amy’s still pretty young and it may have worked in past relationships. The older you get, the less patience you have with this type stuff. I think if you are honest with her and tell her (gently) why it rubs you the wrong way, she might stop. If she doesn’t, I think you should leave the relationship. Who wants to feel guilty all the time … especially when there’s no reason to. Also, I respect a guy who values his children. Remember, your son is your first priority. I’ve seen too many instances in second marriages where the kids take it on the chin.
Just got some really bad news in my neck of the world with the young college student missing in VT. Apparently they’ve found her body. What the hell is wrong with people?
October 14, 2006 at 1:04 am
lovesamerica:
Full speed ahead on Monday!
some thoughts…
I keep an empty pepsi 16 oz bottle at my desk . I fill it up at the water cooler. Today I had 5 bottles of water and 2 cups of coffee. I wasn’t hungry mainly because after I came back from the gym ,I had a bowl of all bran with 1% milk.
That held me until dinner when I had 1 chicken breast and a potato.
Do you have a shopping mall where you live?
Get Mom and sis to walk with you at the mall .
taell them what you are doing and ask them if they want to join in.
My wife has some great fish recipes that are easy to make, You will need to buy some tilapia fellets. Make sure it is fresh ,not previously frozen. Buy it on sale and freeze it in individual portions.
By the way ,what part of Italy does your family come from?
Next week for motivation ,go and rent “Rocky ”
We are gonna do just fine.
May 1, 2022 at 11:32 am
October 14, 2006 at 7:04 am
Two themes that define Chistianity as I see it are Brokenness and Resurection.
GOD’S GIFT OF
BROKENNESS
BROKENNESS IS A TOOL OF GOD’S
God’s discipline and purifying can be painful, but God provides strength and grace to help during these times. (Hebrew chapter 13; Malachi 3:3)
God uses brokenness to rid us of jealousy, pride, greed, lust, selfishness,…
God uses brokenness to reveal our need for Him ( John 6:35 )
BROKENNESS IS A SIGN OF GOD’S LOVE
It is a sign of God’s love and activity in your life (Prov. 3:11, 12 ; Psalm 94:12)
God wants to break us of our self-reliance (Psalm 37:5-7 ; Prov. 3:5,6)
God needs to break us from our nature of pride, selfishness,… an replace these with His love, joy, peace, patience, kindness,… (Galatians 5:19-23 ; Phil. 2:5-8)
God wants to prepare you for future service (Isaiah 6:1-8 ; Isaiah 49:2,3 )
God’s discipline & purifying transform us to share His glory and holiness
(2 Corinthians 3:18; 4:16-18 ; Hebrews 13:10, 11)
GOD SETS LIMITS ON TIMES OF BROKENNESS
Brokenness and discipline stops when we yield or submit to God’s will
When we finally have a sincere desire to obey and follow God’s will, it will end
God will not allow brokenness and discipline to crush us (Isaiah 43:2-4)
GOD WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU OR DESERT YOU
God promises to never leave you or forsake you; do not give in to the feelings that He has somehow left you or deserted you (Hebrews 13:5 ; Deuteronomy 31:8)
Do not give in to the feelings and emotions that tell you that God has turned against you
(Hebrews 13:6 ; Lamentations 3:19-26 )
Go to Jesus and submit to Him, and He will give you rest (Matthew 11:28-30)
GOD USES BROKENNESS TO INCREASE YOUR UNDERSTANDING
God uses it to give you more understanding of yourself (Peter- John 13:36-38)
God uses it to give you more understanding of Himself ( Job 42:1-6 )
God uses it to give you more understanding & compassion for others’ suffering
( 2 Corinthians 1:3, 4)
GOD’S ULTIMATE GOAL FOR YOU: BE LIKE JESUS & SHARE HIS GLORY
God loves you and wants only the best for you. He knows that the very best you can be is to become like Jesus, and to share in His glory ( Romans 8:28, 29 ; 2 Cor. 3:18 ; Daniel 12:3 ; Daniel 11:35 )
September 17, 2021 at 5:37 pm
October 14, 2006 at 1:24 pm
Footprints in the Sand
One night a man had a dream. He dreamed
he was walking along the beach with the LORD.
Across the sky flashed scenes from his life.
For each scene he noticed two sets of
footprints in the sand: one belonging
to him, and the other to the LORD.
When the last scene of his life flashed before him,
he looked back at the footprints in the sand.
He noticed that many times along the path of
his life there was only one set of footprints.
He also noticed that it happened at the very
lowest and saddest times in his life.
This really bothered him and he
questioned the LORD about it:
“LORD, you said that once I decided to follow
you, you’d walk with me all the way.
But I have noticed that during the most
troublesome times in my life,
there is only one set of footprints.
I don’t understand why when
I needed you most you would leave me.”
The LORD replied:
“My son, my precious child,
I love you and I would never leave you.
During your times of trial and suffering,
when you see only one set of footprints,
it was then that I carried you.”
written by Mary Stevenson
October 14, 2006 at 1:30 pm
Home finally. I was in Buffalo helping with the snowstorm. They had hundreds of power outages and called on several area fire departments to help out. The National Guard is there now which relieved some of the manpower. Didn’t get home until late yesterday and was so tired I just went to bed.
lovesamerica, I think it’s great that you’re teaming up with Big Jake. You’ll feel much better and it will increase your confidence like he said. I told you when my wife died I was 35 pounds overweight. I know what it’s like. After I started exercising regularly I felt so much better that I never stopped. When I do missa day or two, I feel it right away and get back at it. It’s easy to become lazy about it so make yourself do it. I apologize for the comments I made in that post. Most men are visual about women first, but if there’s no substance there, the looks don’t matter for very long. Looking good, and feeling good about yourself always boosts your confidence and once you start seeing results it will charge you even more.
American woman, I am about through with Amy. She flipped out on me the other night. She accused me of all kinds of stuff about my intentions concerning her. She told me she hated her husband and she was in the process of leaving him when he got sick and she stayed with him until he died out of duty. She also told me that she was raised in a christian home and she would never have an intimate relationship with a man until they were married first. I told her not to be planning any wedding any time soon and she hit me in the chest. Hard. This christian called me couple fancy names as I was leaving. Then, she calls me at 3:30am, crying, telling me how much she loves me. We talk a few minutes, I hang up, she calls me again about 1/2 an hour later. I told her I have a demanding job and I need to get to sleep, she gets mad again and hangs up on me. I disconnected the phone from the wall. I get home and there’s about 20 messages on my phone. I love you, I hate you, call me, where are you, I love you, I’m sorry, I hate you. She’s crazy. I’m all done. Unfortunately I don’t think she is yet, so I’ll have to deal with her a few more times before it’s completely over. And lovesamerica, I don’t think she’s so gorgeous anymore. See what I mean? Don’t put so much emphasis on your looks. It doesn’t hold a guy forever.
Big Jake, my internet best friend and brother. The war I think that is going on in my spirit is one of two things, I think. Either it’s between my indian/white side, or maybe good and evil. I’m not sure. Probably the indian/white. I have always felt more indian. But I don’t know much about human physch. and you do. What do you think. I own a house on the outskirts of town. When Caroline and I bought it, it came with about 4 acres of land. After she died, I bought 6 more acres, about 3 on each side, because I didn’t want anyone building next to me. There’s a creek at the end of the property and it feeds a pond. I had it stocked with fish a few years ago. I have lots of woods around me. Carolines brothers helped me build a 4 stall garage before she died. I also have a 4/wheel drive pickup that use to hunt and get wood for my fireplace. Caroline always had a big garden, which I don’t do anymore, and we talked about putting up a small glass greenhouse house for her so she could grow her herbs and vegetables through the winter. That never happened. But I have been thinking about building a small barn and getting a couple of horses. I’ve always wanted a horse. Don’t know anything about them, but I think Josh would enjoy it. I like nature. My white heritage is all prissy people. Snooty. I could never relate to them. Still can’t. I know they would help me if I needed anything, so would my Dad, but they seem like aliens to me. I’ve been thinking about taking next summer off from work and taking Josh with me to find the Pawnee in Oklahoma. My Mom is from Nebraska, so I’ll go there, too. But after I do some research I want to go to them. Jake, you seem to be everyone’s mentor on here. You’re a great friend to all of us. I hope God blesses you immensely. You deserve great rewards. You help strangers, so I can just imagine what you do for the people you know. I wonder if your kids know how lucky they are to have a father like you. I could tell them. And like lovesamerica, I’d like to give you a hug. You have given me a purpose and pointed me in a direction. Thanks.
October 14, 2006 at 8:45 pm
Zach,
you wrote:
“My mother told me one time that my grandfather told her that I would have a war in my spirit and for her not to interfere with that war. That it was necessary. He said for her not to fear, that I would have a time of reckoning. That the two spirits would reconcile and become one. There was a path before me and one day I would follow that path and not to stop me”.
And today you wrote:
Big Jake, my internet best friend and brother. The war I think that is going on in my spirit is one of two things, I think. Either it’s between my indian/white side, or maybe good and evil. I’m not sure.
Your Grandfather said that the two Spirits would merge and become one. That eliminates good and evil.
I was waiting in my car for Carmen and my son Louis to return after his guitar lesson and I happened to look to the sky.
It was a very windy day today. A hawk was soaring, effortlessly while other birds wer fighting the wind and being tossed back and forth ,up and down. The hawk did not flap its wings at all . It just caught the breeze or gust and effortlessly rose or swooped . I compared it to human beings trying to get ahead ,getting caught up in the rat-race of life (the other birds). But the hawk ,he just lets God direct him as if in constant communion
Which way ,Lord ? Quo Vadis ,Domini?
I think that the two spirits are your Pawnee and European heritage . You are the product of
those two spirits and both spirits are calling you to make them whole as well as yourself.
We go through life unaware of what troubles us
turning to diversions. Some turn to liquor others to drugs others to food . Some become work-a-holics ,whatever.
You are aware . You must reconcile past with present , maternal heritage with paternal.
I know it is difficult but again I say that you must make an effort with your father to broaden that relationship. What demons he must have tormenting him! What was his childhood like? He is a product of his enviornment.
In his own way, he would help you . He doesn’t know how to relate to you.
You wrote:
I know they would help me if I needed anything, so would my Dad, but they seem like aliens to me.
I venture to say You must seem like an aliemn to him, too.
You must get your mother to speak about her family and reunite her with her roots. She is hurting ,just as you are.
And it will be good for Josh.
you wrote:
I wonder if your kids know how lucky they are to have a father like you. I could tell them. And like lovesamerica, I’d like to give you a hug.
Well , I haven’t always been the best father because I WAS ALWAYS TRYING TO BE THE BEST SON.
In the process, I have alienated my kids just as your father “alien”ated you. I became aware of it 15 years ago. This is my pennance.
Being aware af a situation allows you to do something about it. My oldest daughter is 23. Very much like lovesamerica. I’m trying to make our relationship better and it is getting there.
We go to the gym together and talk about alot of things . She knows that I am there for her.
My older son Joe has come around too. He is always trying to please me . I just want him to be happy.
I posted #5228 . We should all read it over and over again. Brokenness + Jesus Christ leads to Resurection.
October 15, 2006 at 12:49 pm
Big Jake, I agree that the war is between my indian/white heritage. And it is very real. How would my grandfather know that? He hardly knew me. Getting my mother to talk about anything is difficult. She’s always been very quiet, and like I said, she does everything my father tells her to. She always tries to please him. That’s her first priority and always has been. My parents are not affectionate. Not with us, not with each other. My Dad takes a lot of pride in being a good provider. I think it’s to show off more than anything. My Mom is still a nice looking woman. She takes good care of herself and dresses better than anyone I know her age. But that’s probably for my father, too. My Dad looks like Donald Sutherland. I always thought he (Donald) looked like a prick. That’s how my Dad looks to me. And I think he has been one to me. Some of the things he’s said for no reason still irritate me when I think about them. I asked him once why he didn’t like me being a fireman and his reply was that I could’ve been so much more. More than what? He said I walked away from so much opportunity that it told him I was ignorant. He also told me once that Josh has the same opportunity and that if I have an ounce of wisdom I wouldn’t cheat him out of it. I told you I didn’t know how affectionate I was until I met Caroline. Her family demonstrated love. I responded to that. I responded to her. She was always so careful about hurting people’s feelings. Whenever we sat together she would always have her hand on my leg or she would wrap her arms around my arm. To this day, if I see any of her brothers they always give a big hug. My family is nothing like that. Caroline and I were walking one time and I told her how I felt about my Dad and that I was a big failure to him. She stopped and put her hands on my face and told me she LOVED who I was and that she was so proud of me and that she felt lucky to have me. Those are the best words she ever said to me. My Mom always tried to tell me that I should do what my father wants. Being successful is important. Well, what’s successful? What does that really mean? I know it doesn’t mean to me what it means to them. I’m happy with my choices. That’s all that should matter to them. I had a great marriage and I like what I do. I never cheated on my wife or abused her. Things were tight for awhile when we first got married, but we did okay for ourselves. She didn’t work after Josh was born. Only a couple of days a week at her parents greenhouse. We were happy. My parents just don’t get it. They don’t think you can be happy unless you’re rolling in dough, have a professional job nad have alot of material wealth. It’s sickening to me. My Dad told me he has a trust fund set up for Josh. He’s trying to rope him in too. When Caroline died, I got some insurance money. I had my sister set me up with a financial advisor and Josh is going to be just fine. He’ll be shocked when he sees how much he has when he’s 18. I don’t need my father to take care of Josh. I have a keen sense of right and wrong. I don’t do things in front of Josh to screw him up. I would never let anyone move in with me unless I was married and I don’t let woman stay over if he’s here. I would never want him to get up in the morning and see a woman with me and start asking questions. I’ve always talked about his mother to him and I told him how much I loved her and how much she loved him. I think I’m a good father. I’m affectionate with him and he comes before anything else. Right now he wants to be a fireman, but what kid (other than me) doesn’t want to be like his father at that age. (he’s 9) He’s a great kid. He looks like an indian too. His mother was dark so he didn’t have much of a chance to look like anything else. He was at my parents house one time and when I went to pick him up my Dad was walking around their yard with him holding his hand. He never did that with me. If he did, I don’t remember it. I’m telling you Jake, my Dad thinks I’m a loser. He was always setting me up with the daughters of some of his rich friends. If he only knew what whores they were. Selfish whores. Caroline was a class act. But my Dad thought she was nothing because her family wasn’t loaded. This is all just bullshit to me and he knows I feel that way. I respect you, and I will try to broaden the relationship, but don’t hold your breath. I won’t. I will say one thing, I have been reading the Bible a little bit, and it seems to me that the only thing that could fix this would be Jesus Christ. My Dad would have to realize that before any bridge between us could be mended. I do have one other question. My sister is a half breed, too. Why didn’t my grandfather think she would have a war? She and I are close, but she’s not like me, either.
October 15, 2006 at 1:59 pm
Big Jake, on another thing, what do you think of Amy? I talked to her for a little while yesterday and she did a lot of crying. I don’t like the crying, and I don’t like the fact that she hit me. It didn’t really hurt, but remember this girl does weight training and she packs a pretty good punch. I’ve never been hit by woman before. I don’t like it. If I would’ve done that she could have me arrested. I don’t love her and I want to get away from her. Now she wants to reconsider the relationship. She wanted to wait for marriage, well, now she tells me she’s ready. I don’t want it now. I don’t want it this way. I feel like she’s trying to trap me. She is a beautiful woman and I was always hoping to get there, but, she will want more than that and I don’t. I’ve always thought that I wanted to wait until Josh was 18, on his own, in college or doing whatever he wanted until I thought about marriage again. I almost did it after Caroline died, but I was a mess then and Josh was so little, crying all the time. I’m used to being alone with him now and I like it. I see alot guys lose all they have to their wives and I’m not going to let that happen either. So, what do you think? How can I get rid of her without doing too much damage? I told her I wanted time away from her for awhile and she cries and begs. It’s pathetic to me. I’m sorry for her, but I don’t like where this is going. Help me out.
October 15, 2006 at 5:31 pm
Wow,Zach, sounds like you have your hands full. I know I’m only 23 and I’m not sure if I’m anyone you’d listen to, but I would stay away from her. I know exactly what she’s doing. She’s coming around now because she’s afraid of losing you completely if she doesn’t. She’s hanging on by a rope, and if you’re not careful she’ll hang you with it. My friend wanted her boyfriend to marry her before he was ready. She got herself pregnant, they got married and they’re miserable. He cheats on her all the time. You don’t sound like a dummy and all that you have to offer, I’d play it safe. I don’t like her. And just to set the record straight, I told you my name was Amy, but it’s really Amelia. People call me Amy because they’re too lazy to say the whole thing. She sounds spoiled to me. Get away.
Now Big Jake. I went to the store and I bought all kinds of stuff. Cottage cheese, yogurt, fruit, fresh vegetables, salad stuff. I bought a bag of peanuts in the shell. Now, you said you eat 12. Do you just eat 12 a day? Do you snack at all on veggies and fruit? What do you eat for lunch and breakfast? I also went to SEARS and bought a treadmill. (Charged it) They’re delivering it next week. I’m so excited!! Keep coaching me because I’m going to need it. I tried drinking all that water this weekend and without sounding gross, all I did was pee. I’m a little nervous about doing it at work because I’m in customer service and I’m answering phones all day. I am so happy and I’m looking forward to dropping this weight. By the way, my family is sicilian. They’re second gwneration and I’m not full blooded italian.
Talk to you soon.
October 15, 2006 at 5:49 pm
Z,
I’ll wade into this one as well if you don’t mind. Yes, she is making a “last ditch effort” to keep you. My suggestion is to be up front and honest with her. Tell her you feel she has some security/trust issues that she needs to deal with before she can enter any healthy relationship, especially with you. Add the part of finding your heritage. Be ready for her to ask to be there to share it with you. She probably take your negative answer poorly. I’ve heard other women claim that’s a “cop out” reply from a man who wants to end a relationship. What!? Like we don’t need time to retreat and regroup?
But also ask yourself this: Is it just Amy or would you have problems changing back to sharing your life with any other woman? Other than her needy behavior, is she really that bad? I seem to recall some very positive traits mentioned in previous posts. Remember, there is no such woman as a perfect ten. The best you can hope for is a composite score of 7.5 or better. Are you being too hard on her AND yourself?
OK, back to the “goodbye” option. If she is mature and accepts that the reason you wish to call it quits is her baggage, then perhaps she’ll do some soul searching and put some things down that she’s been lugging around for years. If she goes “Fatal Attraction” on you then the cut and run strategy was correct. Just steel yourself for another barrage of “Why did you do this to me?” “Why can’t we talk it over?” “I thought I meant something to you?” et cetera.
Short answer, there is no “easy button” for ending relationships. I’ve been on both ends and neither is pleasant. I’ll be here, too, for support and useful(?) advice.
October 15, 2006 at 5:52 pm
Astronomy of the Pawnee Indians
The Skidi Band of the Pawnee Native Americans originally inhabited Nebraska. The Pawnee are known to be some of the best early star watchers. The reason for their avid interest in the heavens is because their whole life centered around the movement of the stars. Unlike many ancient civilizations, the Pawnee did not have a calendar, they relied on the positions of the stars to tell them when certain events were supposed to take place.
But the Pawnee did not only use the stars as a timekeeper, they also structured their whole social system off of the stars. They believed that they were born of the stars and have an elaborate legend explaining how the universe was created and in the end the Morning Star, Mars (Male), and the Evening Star, Venus (Female), had a daughter and from her the human race was born. This story was more than a legend to the Pawnee who believed that the stars were gods that “interacted with humans.” The most important star gods are “The Red Morning Star Warrior” which is believed to be Mars, and the “White Star Woman” which is believed to be Venus. The second highest star gods supported the heavens and were located at NW, NE, SW, and SE. The third most important of the star gods were the sun, moon, and the gods of the four directions (N, S, E, W). The Pawnee had shrines and sacrificial rituals in honor of the Gods of the sky.
Another way the Pawnee incorporated the stars in to their life could be observed just by looking at the structure of their villages. Villages were laid out in the pattern of the most important stars, and house’s doors all faced east to the rising sun, and each house had four posts representing the four important directions. In each of these households a sacred bundle could be found, these bundles were believed to be gifts from the star gods and contained star charts. These star charts were made of leather with one side of the chart a reddish-brown and the other side a brownish-yellow and the stars were represented in four-pointed figures. The milky way was found in the center of the chart symbolizing the division between summer and winter. This chart is depicted below.
October 15, 2006 at 7:04 pm
zach,
you wrote:
Why didn’t my grandfather think she would have a war? She and I are close, but she’s not like me, either.
I believe that it was male -male bonding between you and your grandfather. Were you his first grandson? I remember being inseparable from my grandfather up until he passed away when I was 5 years old.
As far as your sister is concerned,was your grandmather alive ? I would expect that there would have the same type of interaction between them. With your sister ,I would think that her
native american heritage would have been suppressed or sublimated as was your mother’s.
Your grandfather saw the warrior in you “Eyes of the Wolf”,the Wolf being revered in Pawnee culture so much that the red wolf head is on the flag of the Pawnee Nation. He new that you would have to come to terms with the European influence and somehow merge taking the best of both cultures .
October 15, 2006 at 7:26 pm
Zach:
Regarding Amy:
That’s a real tough one.
I was giving her the benefit of the doubt because her husband died less than a year ago. But you tell me that she said that she didn’t love him ,would have broken up with him and only stayed with him because she felt a sense of duty because he was dying.
Then the phone thing,and physical violence?!!
She most definitely has issues. You have to make the assessment whether or not you can make the emotional commitment to support her and the relationship .
Do you think the relationship has legs? Can it last if you make that emotional investment?
How will it effect Josh if you continue with Amy
in the apparent state that she is in?
Is she willing to go for counseling to find out what’s troubling her?
Why did she hit you? Is she embarrased about it?
Can she talk about it?
If you want out ,you have valid reasons to feel so.
October 15, 2006 at 9:29 pm
lovesamerica:
First off ,let me say that I am proud of you .
The toughest part of dieting is getting started and making the commitment. While I am helping you in this,you are also helping me. We made an agreement to do this together. If we slack off we not only hurt ourselves ,we are letting the other person down also. We can’t do this.Don’t let it happen,I won’t.
Treadmills are great. Does the one you purchased incline? You can start out doing 15 minutes at 3.0 mph in the morning and 15 min at night before bed
Work it up to 20 min after 1 month
Depending on the treadmill ,you can run on it ,but unless it is gym quality walking on it is good enough.
SITUATE THE T.V .SO YOU CAN WATCH YOUR FAVORITE SHOW WHILE WALKING otherwise it will become boring.
The 12 peanut thing was just an idea that I had and use. It works for me . The object is to keep busy and trick yourself into satisfying food urges with least calorie consumption snacks. I bought celery ,carrots and peanuts this week.
You have to get your digestive system to work efficiently .Thats why water is so important . it flushes toxins out of your body . When you exercise you will be metabolising carbohydrates and breaking down fats. You need to flush the system with the water. you will also notice the improvement in your skin tecture as well as feeling less hungry.
Re drinking water at work:
Try a glass of water when you wake up, one at noon, one when you leave work at 5, one a half hour before dinner one during dinner one before you hit the treadmill at night. THATS AT LEAST 5 . You can fit the other 3 in while you work out.
This should remove any problem of running to the ladies room excessively during work.
Have your snacks pre-set the night before. if you start work at 9 have a cup of coffee . at 10:30 have a 6 oz yogurt. lunch suggestion- individual tuna (3 oz solid white) on a hard roll lettuce and tomato a dab(just a little )mayo on the roll.
(as opposed to tuna salad with gobs of mayo mixed in.)
Try it ,enjoy the texture of the hard roll ,the crispness of the lettuce the flavor of the tuna and the tomato.
Keep in mind that you can munch celery,and carrots all day . Have the peanuts as a treat .
Afternoon snack should be 3 pm .try 2 rice cakes
and 1 slice of american cheese or a large apple or a large pear.
Dinner- vegetable ,carb and meat or fish portion (size of your fist).
Tonight I’m having broccoli rabe ,large red baked potato and a piece of scrod fillet
My wife ,Carmen, takes an onion sautes a large
onion in a little olive oil say enough to cover the bottom of the pot. She lets the onion carmelize a little ,then throws in the fillet. You could use any type of white flesh fillet ,flounder,talapia scrod etc.
LET IT COOK FOR 15 MINUTES OVER MEDIUM HEAT IN A COVERED POT UNTIL COOKED ,enjoy!
after workout snack apple , pear or banana
Let me know how it worked out.
October 15, 2006 at 9:45 pm
lovesamerica :
I forgot breakfast .
I have a cup of cereal (Kashi ,Special K or All Bran) with 1% milk
OR
a slice of 12 grain toast with 2 heaping tablespoons of cottage cheese
a cup of coffee with 1 % milk
a 4 oz glass of orange juice
October 15, 2006 at 10:43 pm
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PAWNEE INDIANS. The Pawnee Indians are members of the Caddoan linguistic family, which inhabited a large region in central North America stretching from South Dakota to Texas and Louisiana. The Pawnees occupied the northern portion of this domain, concentrated most heavily in the area of present-day Nebraska. Most of the Pawnee villages were scattered along the Loup, Platte, and Republican Rivers in the present state of Nebraska. The Pawnees regarded themselves as four separate tribes: the Skidis, who were the dominant tribe; the Chauis; the Kitkehahkis; and the Pitahauerats. They apparently migrated northward from their Caddoan homeland near the Red River prior to 1600. The Wichitas and the Pawnees migrated northward and settled in the vicinity of the Arkansas River in southern Kansas and northern Oklahoma in the seventeenth century. When the French, with whom they were trading, abandoned the area after 1763, the Wichitas returned to the Red River, while the Pawnees continued northward to settle in Nebraska.
By the 1830s the Pawnees were well established in present-day Nebraska and numbered approximately 12,000. They had a very loose social-political organization. Chiefs had little power other than persuasion, and there was no overall chief. The Pawnees were divided into two major political groups, the Skidis and the southern bands. These groups were in turn divided into villages and households. Villages generally contained three to five hundred inhabitants and ten to fifteen households. Members of a village considered themselves kin. Therefore, chiefs were considered heads of extended families rather than as government officials. The Pawnee household consisted of thirty to fifty persons living in an earth lodge-a circular, dome-shaped structure roofed with earth. Generally two heads of households shared each lodge. One oversaw the northern sector and the other oversaw the southern sector. Each sector was further divided into three stations into which the women were divided. One station was for the mature women, who did most of the labor. A second station was for the young single women who were just learning their responsibilities. The third station housed the older women who cared for the small children and babies as well as other household matters.
The membership of each household was fluid. Twice a year the tribe went on their semi-annual buffaloqv hunt, at which time the household units broke down into smaller groups, each headed by an able hunter. Once the hunt was over and the tribe returned to the villages, they often did not necessarily settle into the same households as before. The internal structure remained the same; a northern and southern sector each with three sections into which young, mature, and older women could easily fit. Young men were more transient, congregating at different times at different households. Once a young man married, he moved in with his wife’s family. Older men likewise moved freely from household to household. Despite “kin” relationship between members of each village, spouses usually belonged to the same village. Marriage to outsiders was considered a poor risk. Marriages of parents and children, brothers and sisters, and other close blood relatives were strictly prohibited. Females usually married after their fifteenth birthday, while males waited until they were eighteen. Both sexes generally married a mature spouse as their first partner. The inexperienced youths were considered incapable of performing their respective matrimonial duties adequately, thus the Pawnees felt it was desirable to have an experienced spouse from whom to learn.
The Pawnees depended heavily on two staples, the buffalo and corn. They grew other crops as well, but corn was considered a sacred gift and was called “mother.” In fact, the Pawnee tied various religious ceremonies to its planting, hoeing, and harvesting. The Pawnee lifestyle alternated between hunting buffalo and planting or harvesting crops. After planting and hoeing their crops, they left their villages in mid-June for a buffalo hunt. They returned to harvest crops in September and, after storing their foodstuffs, left in late October for their winter buffalo hunt. They returned to their villages in early April to plant their crops and begin the cycle all over again.
During their hunts, the Pawnees lived in skin-covered tipis. While at their permanent villages, they lived in earth lodges. The villages became more centralized during the seventeenth century, when horse-riding Apache Indians began raiding the Pawnee settlements. The plains Apaches burned Pawnee villages, killed as many of the men as they could, and carried women and children into slavery, selling them to the Spanish and Pueblo Indians in New Mexico. The slave trade became so brisk that the term “Pawnee” became synonymous with “slave.”
The Pawnees, because of their geographic location, had little direct contact with Europeans until much later than most other tribes. Francisco Vázquez de Coronadoqv probably visited Pawnee villages during his journey to Quiviraqv in 1541. It was apparently a Pawnee force that defeated the expedition of Pedro de Villasur in 1720. Villasur led a force of forty Spaniards and seventy Pueblo Indian allies to the Pawnee villages in an effort to wean them away from the French traders and into the realm of Spanish influence. Instead, the Pawnees attacked his force, killing Villasur and most of his men. A few stragglers made it back to New Mexico. By this time, the Pawnees had begun to trade with the French in Louisiana, with whom they had allied themselves by 1750. With French guns and ammunition they were able to defend themselves from incessant Apache attacks. When the French were removed from Louisiana in the Treaty of Paris (1763), the Pawnees began suffering attacks from British-armed Sioux and Osage Indians. As a result, several groups of Pawnees migrated south to join their Wichita kin on the Red River. In 1771 approximately 300 northern Pawnees visited the Wichitas on the Red River to trade. Rather than returning home, they merged with the Wichitas and became known as the Asidahesh.
In February 1795 a group of Pawnees, along with Wichitas and Taovayas, visited San Antonio to report injuries that they had received at the hands of Americans and expressed interest in securing friendship with the Spanish. Although the Spanish were apparently interested and excited about the offer, little resulted from the meeting, and the Pawnees apparently did not renew their offer. Instead, in 1818, the Pawnees still living in Nebraska signed the first of several treaties with the United States. Despite pressure from American settlers, who settled on or near their lands, and constant pressure from the United States government to sign away their lands in treaties, the Pawnees never went to war with the United States. They did, on occasion, send raiding parties through Texas on their way to Mexico during the mid-nineteenth century. For the most part, however, they tried to work out their grievances within the system and many Pawnees served faithfully in the United States army as scouts, leading the American soldiers against their traditional Sioux enemies. The Pawnees probably served most famously in battalions under Frank J. and Luther North from 1865 to 1877. By the mid-1870s the Pawnees had ceded the last of their Nebraska lands and removed to Oklahoma. In 1892 they took their lands in severalty and became United States citizens. At that time the population had dropped to approximately 800. After reaching a low of 649 in 1906, the Pawnee population has been gradually increasing, exceeding 1,000 in 1940.
BIBLIOGRAPHY: George Bird Grinnell, Two Great Scouts and Their Pawnee Battalion (Cleveland: Clark, 1928). Frederick Webb Hodge, ed., Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico (2 vols., Washington: GPO, 1907, 1910; rpt., New York: Pageant, 1959). George E. Hyde, The Pawnee Indians (Denver: University of Denver Press, 1951; enlarged ed., Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1974). Robert H. Lowie, Indians of the Plains (Garden City, New York: Natural History Press, 1954). R. C. Troike, “A Pawnee Visit to San Antonio in 1795,” Ethnohistory 11 (1964). Gene Weltfish, The Lost Universe (New York: Basic Books, 1965).
Jeffrey D. Carlisle
October 15, 2006 at 11:26 pm
Famous Pawnee Chiefs
White Eagle
( Tribe : Pawnee )
His date of birth is not exactely known, but he died in 1879. White Eagle was a principal chief of the Skidi Pawnees in the middle of the 19th Century. His leadership of the Pawnee buffalo hunt was described in detail by Gene Weltfish in his classic sr´tudy of the Pawnees. As chief of the hunt, White Eagle was also in charge of the considerable logistics of moving camps of several hundred people. He was a Native healer (or “deer doctor”) and called upon supernatural aid for success in the hunt. White Eagle was leader of the Pawnee just as they were making contact with Europeans and their diseases–smallpox,cholera, and measles–which destroyed several Pawnee bands within two decades at mid-century. Between 60 and 120 Pawnee were massacred by the Sioux in 1871. After that, White Eagle and other Pawnee chiefs reluctantly accepted exile in Oklahoma. White Eagle built his last earth lodge near the present-day town of Pawnee, Oklahoma, where he died in 1879.
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Petalesharo (“Man Chief”)
( Tribe : Pawnee )
c. 1797-1874. “Petalesharo” seems to have functioned as a title as well as a personal name during the early 18th century among the Pawnee. Several outstanding warriors used the name, and it is sometimes difficult to attribute biographical details to one individual. The best-known person to claim the title not only distinguished himself as a warrior but also as a humanitarian. He aggressivly curtailed the Pawnee use of human sacrifice in certain rituals. Until his time, the Pawnees had raided other tribes for girls of about thirteen years of age,,who would be treated well until their sacrifice in the Morning Star Ceremony, which had some parallels to Aztec rites. During one such ceremony, which occured in the late 1820s, Petalesharo is said to have protested by rescuing a young woman from the sacrifice. Petalesharo cut the bonds that held the woman to a sacrifice cross, carried her to a horse to escape, then fed and protected the woman before sending her home. During the fall and winter of 1821, Petalesharo toured the urban areas of the Northeast, including Washington, D.C., where he spoke at a conference attended by president James Monroe and secretary of war John Calhoun. He also attended a New Year’s reception at the White House.
http://www.axel-jacob.de/chiefs21.html
October 16, 2006 at 2:26 am
I’m so sorry guys! I’ve missed you all and have just spent at least a coule of hours reading all the new posts. I’ve been moving from my previous home for the last several weeks and have not had much time to get back to the other site. Unfortunately for myself, I am having a hard time accessing the site myself. I’m trying to figure out what the problem is.
I have been in tears reading through all the commentary and realizing, crazy though it sounds, how much I love so many of you guys. To watch this evolve, unlike it would, many times in a “real” circumstance, is absolutely beautiful. I’m really choked up just reading through this.
lovesamerica–Dear Girl, I’m quite close to Atlanta. But as sincerely as I would wish to reach out to you, I am, how can one say this without sounding arrogant? I am quite slim and quite attractive. Would this affect your friendship with me? Would you dislike me because of it? The soul is behind the eyes; if there is no depth there, there is nothing. If you have no heart for understanding, feel no empathy for someone else less fortunate than yourself, there is nothing. I would be there for you, but oddly, as I have seen before, wonder if you would become angry because of what I am on the outside. How curious the world is.
zealot–But I have been thinking about building a small barn and getting a couple of horses. I’ve always wanted a horse.
I breed and train horses–strictly American in breeding. If you would like some help in that area, I can assist you in finding something appropriate for you and your son.
Big Jake– Been doing a lot of study. I do not believe in the rapture anymore and feel that there is very little Biblical evidence to back this theory up. I am preparing for otherwise.
Americanwoman– I certainly haven’t forgotten you! You are certainly a woman after my own soul!
I hope to hear from you guys soon.
October 16, 2006 at 3:21 am
Red Dawn:
J.W., great to have you back! I was able to get on to the other site a little while ago with no problem. Just go to yahoo groups and log in using your user name and password. Be careful as the login is case sensitive. I didn’t know why I couldn’t log in until I remembered to put my cap lock on. Lots going on here as you can see. I am sure everyone can’t wait for your input.
October 16, 2006 at 3:44 am
Big Jake–
I can get onto the site; just can’t get on to the hotmail address to verify. I’m not really worried about that now.
But I’m back; here and THERE.
And I have most certainly missed you. If only I could be half as forthcoming as some of the brave souls who’ve posted here. I could have used the support and comraderie (sp?). It has been quite an adventure recently. But I made it through; not by my strength, but by His. Not my will, but His. If it were left solely to me, my life would be the most laughable of dabacles. And I have laughed until I have cried; and my tears were the tears justifiable to one who has failed. And then I cried because I was forgiven. And then I cried bitter tears for what I have lost. And then I said, let it go, for nothing is the past, but you have wisdom to take with you, so take it. And move on. And let your beliefs keep you.
And I remember, “His mind is kept in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on Him.”
You people have moved me. And it is good to know, no matter how the world sees you or knows you, that you are not alone.
October 16, 2006 at 10:30 am
Red Dawn, why would you think that you being quite slim and quite attractive would affect a friendship with me? There IS no friendship other than the internet. I bare my soul and let everyone know I’m fat and dumpy and you write that. Is that because you knew Zach would read it? And now you want to help in with horses? I may be young, but I’m not stupid. It’s great you’re so pretty and I’m sure DJ, Big Jake and Z are glad to know it.
October 16, 2006 at 2:07 pm
lovesamerica:
Goodmorning-
Stop with the fat and dumpy stuff already,ok?
We’re doing something about it ,you and I.
If you see yourself that way , I GUESS THAT YOU SEE ME AS FAT AND DUMPY TOO.
I’m not fat and dumpy,neither are you! We just have to lose 30 lbs.
And Red Dawn didn’t mean anything hurtful by what she posted.
So lets get down to business with this diet thing ,today.
Well ,I don’t see myself as fat and dumpy and neither should you see yourself that way ,because you arn’t.
Focus on the Amy you want to be. The Amy you will become.OK?
October 16, 2006 at 2:27 pm
lovesamerica–
I’m sorry you took what I said the wrong way. I’m happily married with two children and only offered to help zealot because I am experienced with horses.
I have had friends, one in particular that I have recently lost, because she viewed herself in such a negative light. Like you, she was overweight and she felt so very insecure about herself that it became an obsession. For me, I only cared about what a bright and dear person she was. I adored her. She, however, would get very resentful of me because of her insecurity and would behave in ways that eventually led to the demise (this is recent) of a partnership and dream we were working on, as well as ruined the friendship.
It was quite devastating to me but I simply couldn’t deal with her betrayal of me anymore. I knew it came from a deep seated insecurity but I was one to often on the receiving end of her jelousy, professionally and privately.
I say these things because I have been well aware, especially being female, that other females discriminate against females they think really attractive far more than they do against women they think equal or less than them in looks. Which is precisely why I have very few female friends and mostly guy friends.
I mentioned this all, I suppose, because I felt a need to reach out to you and a deep empathy for your sadness and loneliness. You are not far from me (proximity-wise). You reminded me of the friend that I lost I guess.
You have exhibited many excellent qualities here in your postings. I hope you realize that these qualities are so much more important than what is on the outside. I sure wish more females were less consumed with the outside and focused more on the inner qualities of generosity, kindness, love, understanding, empathy, devotion that God endowed all of us with.
October 16, 2006 at 2:34 pm
lovesamerica–
Big Jake is right, I didn’t mean to say anything hurtful. Go back and reread what I wrote without thinking of your outward self. Read it as if you had no body to think of.
I wish you well in your dieting quest! Just remember that the inside is vastly more important.
October 16, 2006 at 4:13 pm
Big Jake, I don’t see you as fat and dumpy. I see you as a very special friend. Fat looks different on men than it does women. I care about you and I have stuck to the diet so far today but it’s hard. They have doughnuts and muffins in here today and all the skinny’s are chowing them down. Red Dawn, maybe you didn’t mean to hurt me, but why don’t you re-read what you wrote, too. It came off like, “I’m going to put you to shame, but can we be friends?” I told you, I’m NOT UGLY. I’M OVERWEIGHT which the world judges as ugly. When I drop the weight, I’ll give you a run for the money. I won’t feel inferior to anyone then. And something else, Red Dawn, you sound nice enough, but people view attractiveness differently. You might think you’re attractive, but do you think EVERY SINGLE MAN THAT LOOKS AT YOU IS SAYING “HUBBA HUBBA” TO HIMSELF? Women like you are hard to relate to because you think all other women are jealous of you. Honestly, I don’t find that attractive. It’s one thing to be confident, but it’s another thing to think you’re over the top great. I work with tons of pretty girls, and to be perfectly honest, most of them are bitches. I don’t find too many redeeming qualities about any of them. All a guy has to do is flirt with them a little bit and they’re in the sack with them. And look at Zach’s Amy. He was so rolled over by her looks, now he thinks she’s a loon. I’m going to work on my looks and get in shape, and when it’s all over, I’m still going to be me. I’ve got a great complexion, beautiful long hair, and pretty green eyes. I can’t wait to dump the lard…you really motivated me with the comment so I guess more than anything I owe you a BIG THANKS. I’ve looked stupid on here before because I say things alot of times without thinking. But I’m not stupid. Let’s call a truce and start over. I’ve always liked your posts in the past. Just don’t pat yourself on the back about how great looking you are and women don’t want to be your friend because of it. That sounds pretty vain. Let other people talk about how pretty you are. That’s more attractive.
October 16, 2006 at 10:06 pm
DJ, thanks for the advice on Amy. You can be in my corner anytime, and from the looks of things, I can use you. She doesn’t take no for an answer. She expected me to take no for a couple months, but now that I’m not interested in her anymore, she’s unbelievable. Freaking me out. Jake, she said she was sorry about hitting me when she first did it, but I think she would do it again. She apologized the night she called me at 3:30 in the morning and I told her to forget about it and we’d talk about it another time. This all started because i told her I wanted to stop seeing her every day and every weekend. I felt we needed to stay apart for a while. I’m going be blunt here, so ladies, please forgive me. When we’re alone, she likes to do everything but the whole thing if you know what I mean. Well, I’m not going to keep playing those games. I told her that’s hard for a guy to do all the time and then she started accusing me of only wanting her for that and on an on. I told her if all I wanted was a piece of ass that I could get that anywhere. Then she said something about being a christian and she would have to be married first. Hey, I can respect that. I’ve respected her wishes all along. But, I told her not to plan on any wedding any time soon. When I said that, she hit me in the chest. And it was hard. It didn’t hurt like it would if another guy hit me, but it was a pretty good solid punch. That’s when I just turned around and walked out the door, the whole time she’s yelling at me calling me very unchristian names. I stayed away from her most of this weekend. I talked to my sister, and she tells me Amy called her and told her we’ve been talking about getting married. I talk to Amy yesterday and told her that she shouldn’t be telling people that. She and I had a nice long talk and I thought we came to an understanding. I told her we should just stay away from each other for a while until we decide where this thing was headed. She agreed. I asked her why she hit me, and she said she was sorry again and she was just so frustrated and guys don’t appreciate nice girls these days. I told her that wasn’t true, that I thought she was real nice and some guy was going to be a lucky man. BIG MISTAKE. Shouldn’t have said it that way. She starts crying. And crying. And crying. I’m there about 2 hrs trying to fix things up. My son is at Caroline’s parents house so I told her I had to go get him. When I left I thought things were okay, but she calls me again last night at 2:30am this time. I kept her happy and I guess she’s okay now. I’m on rotation this week so I’ll be staying nights at the firehouse, which I’m really glad. My son stays at my sisters house and I told her to call me if Amy calls her. She’s is driving me crazy. She’s possessive and I can see a bossy streak, too. I’m afraid of her. Don’t laugh. I really am. if she were a guy I’d just punch him in the mouth and be done with it. This is just plain weird.
Jake, I have more to talk to you about but my sister just came in and I’ve got to run.
Red Dawn, glad to see you’re back.
lovesamerica, I’ve always been a sucker for green eyes.
October 16, 2006 at 11:48 pm
lovesamerica:
You owe Red Dawn a big Thank You! She has fired you up!
You wrote:
I told you, I’m NOT UGLY. I’M OVERWEIGHT which the world judges as ugly. When I drop the weight, I’ll give you a run for the money. I won’t feel inferior to anyone then.
and then you wrote:
I’ve got a great complexion, beautiful long hair, and pretty green eyes. I can’t wait to dump the lard…you really motivated me with the comment so I guess more than anything I owe you a BIG THANKS.
Heres to the Amy you are right now ,
And heres to the amy you will become. Hubba Hubba!
October 17, 2006 at 1:21 am
Amy, I’m for you girl. You just have to believe it.
Are your green eyes Irish? Mine are. Wait a minute; didn’t you say you were Italian? Anyway, you have much going for you and I can hear what you are saying. You are a spitfire and you sound beautiful to me. Your heart is open and you have great depth; the two things I admire most in any person. Be they male or female.
If you’re overweight and don’t like it, DO something about it. If you don’t want to, ACCEPT and LOVE yourself for who you are and accept other people for who they are as well.
I personally do not care if a friend is overweight or not; I don’t look at the outside skin when choosing a friend. I look at the heart and soul of a person.
And since we’re being so honest…I am attractive, but what makes men go “hubba hubba” about me is entirely different. As I said before, I have mostly guy friends. They might be initially attracted to my looks, but they are far more attracted to my ability to be able to relate to them from the vantage point of a women’s intuition. And the fact that I have codes of conduct based on far more masculine notions; loyalty and realness.
So let’s do start over, Amy. I WOULD like to be your friend because I like you.
zealot–Glad to see you again as well. Your girl sounds very confused. And needy. Perhaps not the right time for you guys. If you’re not in love with her now, you either won’t ever be or now is not the time. Seems to me that when a man meets that special woman, regardless of behavior, he’d have a bit more of a hook in his heart if he were truly in love with her.
One thing Zach, you’ve memoralized Caroline in your memory and your heart; she can do no wrong now. Who can stand up to this standard? Who is as perfect as her? You need to realize that everyone comes with baggage; especially at our middle years. Inject much empathy and great thought into these things.
October 17, 2006 at 2:27 am
WOW! I’m checking out the Cardinals and the Bears…this football season has been a bit strange. The Panthers are aiming for another superbowl return and that is where my heart is!
October 17, 2006 at 2:59 am
The Cardinals are killing the Bears! Unbelievable. Panthers are on their way guys, check it out. Just got to knock the Saints out, again. By gosh though, that Cardinal’s QB Leinhart is something else.
October 17, 2006 at 3:02 am
If only we could play a good old fashioned game of football with N. Korea and Iran. Our problems would be over. :}
October 17, 2006 at 2:08 pm
Red Dawn, you have green eyes, too? Figures, you’d have to let everyone know about YOU and steal my thunder. (That’s a joke so don’t get your shorts in a bunch) But,I sense you base alot more on looks than you’re willing to admit. That’s okay. Good looking people usually have underdeveloped personalities because their looks pave the way for them. People have always complimented me on my hair and my eyes. That’s why I said that in the previous post. I don’t take compliments to heart because so many of them arn’t meant anyway. Depending on who says them and why, people usually have an agenda when they’re throwing out compliments. No, I’m not Irish. My Dad is german. My Mom is italian and she’s not full blooded either. Yes, I can be a spitfire sometimes. I don’t like cocky people that think they’re great. Never have. Never will. It’s nice you’re married and your husband doesn’t mind you having male friends. I hope he doesn’t wake up nights quaking, wondering if someone will steal his beautiful wife away from him. He must be a very secure man to have someone like you when you outshine everyone else. It must be great to be you.
Big Jake, the diet is coming along. I wrote everything down yesterday, and in spite of almost peeing myself to death, I managed to drink all that water. When I was laying in bed last night, I could wiggle and feel it sloshing against my sides. It was funny. I didn’t eat very much at all yesterday and I didn’t snack. Thanks for helping me with this. They’re delivering my treadmill tomorrow.
Right now you’re my best friend.
Zach, thanks for saying that about green eyes. But of course, Red Dawn has green eyes, too, so you would be a sucker for her now, too. Probably more for her than me until I lose weight. And I’ll lose it, honey. If there’s any chance in Hell that I can get someone like you that’s incentive enough. I’ll just have to make sure you never meet Red Dawn.
October 17, 2006 at 3:42 pm
lovesamerica:
I’m sitting here reading your post and smiling like an idiot. You remind me so much of my wife you could be her twin. I think one of your most attractive qualities is your feistyness.
I’m glad day one went well. Remember not to skip any meals . If you are drinking the water ,eat a bowl of all bran in the A.M.
I bought different varieties of squash this week, Zuchinni ,Acorn and butternut . My wife cooked an acorn squash . She just split it and baked it until a fork could pass easily through the flesh. I felt hungry after dinner last night and had a half of the squash right out of the fridge while I worked at my computer.
I’m working from home today so I will cook up the zuchinni. I Saute an onion. again just cover the bottom of the pan with olive oil.
add a can of ready made tomato sauce. Depending on the amount of zuchinni you are making adjust the amount of sauce proportionately. We have 6 in the family so I cook up a pot of zuchinni with a 26.5 oz can of ready made sauce.
Its very easy . peel and slice up the zuchinni and add to the sauce . cook until tender . Make sure to turn at least once so the cook evenly.
Very little calories so you can eat alot of it .
I like to snack on it at night . Just take a cup of it and put it in the microwave with a little grated cheese .
October 17, 2006 at 3:50 pm
lovesamerica :
Amy ,
Did you speak to your mother and sister about joining you ? How about walking at the mall?
It would help them and you if you all participated . When everybody is eating healthy there is less chance of temptation.
Also be prepared to have something to eat at work when the “skinnies” have their donuts and cakes. Get some… I think they are called “snackwells” or some cereal bars. Good for a mid morning break with a cup of coffee.
I’m very proud of you.
October 17, 2006 at 8:45 pm
Big Jake, I’m from Philadelphia. I took this job in Atlanta when I first got out of college. My Mom and sister are in Philly. I have resumes in to several businesses there, and hope to move back in the Spring.
I’m starving!!!! I had a bagel and orange juice for breakfast, and just a salad for lunch. I’m going to fix some chicken, a salad, and maybe a small potatoe for supper.
It helps to know you’re proud of me…I hope I don’t let you down, but my irritation keeps me motivated.
October 17, 2006 at 10:12 pm
Big Jake, DJ, Red Dawn. I need to get something off my chest. All of you, in one way or another, have somehow suggested to me that i need to re-think how I feel about relationships. With women and my father. I re-read some of my posts, and I’m surprised at how much of my life I’ve told you. Yet, there are things that I wasn’t ready share. I think you will understand me alot better if I tell you something that I have to live with every single day. It’s my fault Caroline died. Before I went to work Caroline told me she had enough diapers for the day, but asked me to pick some up before I came home. It was miserable out and she didn’t want to go out. Plus, Josh had a cold, and she didn’t want to take him out in the rain. She even called later in the day and left a message to remind me. I still forgot. It was later than usual when I got home. I can still see her standing in the door when I came up on the porch asking me if I remembered the diapers. I didn’t. I was irritated and tired and I didn’t want to go get them. She knew I was irritated so she told me to come in and eat and take a shower and she’d go. Two hours later I get the call to come to the hospital. She was dead before I even got there. I was asleep on the couch and didn’t even know how long she’d been gone. I didn’t even get a chance to tell her I was sorry. She always had a lead foot and she hit some water and she hydroplaned into the other lane in front of a gravel truck. She got creamed. The guy driving the gravel truck was crying and he told me how sorry he was and that there was no place for him to go. If I just would’ve turned around and got back in the car and got those diapers she would be with me right now. Josh would have his mother. So many people have been impacted because I didn’t do that for her. Me, Josh, her family, the guy driving the truck. All because I didn’t want to go back out. I was back at work for about six months after she died and they put me on suspension for taking unnessessary risks and being a danger to the other guys. I also got into a fight with my best friend on the job because he tried to stop me from going ahead with something that was clearly dangerous. I was also drinking pretty regularly. They made me see a counselor and I completed everything I had to do so I could get back to work. Josh was spending most of his time with Caroline’s parents because I was pretty unfit. They even sat me down and talked to me one time and asked me to consider giving him to them. That woke me up but I still had a lot of problems dealing with everything. I’m telling you this because I KNOW I will never let myself feel about anyone like I did Caroline. I don’t want to love anyone like that again. Because it kills you when you lose it. If anyone was supposed to die that night, it should’ve been me. And it kills me that it’s my fault it was her. The counselor, family and friends all have told me it isn’t my fault, and you all will probably tell me it wasn’t my fault, but no matter how you look at it, it really is. I was tired, and lazy and I just wanted to stay home. It would’ve taken me 10 minutes. Instead, it changed my life forever. The song Glory of Love, by Chicago, I had it played for her on our wedding day. It was my song to her, and it was just us on the dance floor. She loved that song and it was always ours. I haven’t played that song since she died. If it comes on the radio, which it doesn’t much, but when it does, I turn it right off. I can’t listen to it. Because I let her down. I didn’t take care of her and put her first when it mattered. It’s my fault I lost her and I have to live with that every day. I feel like I killed her. If it wouldn’t have been for Josh, I probably would’ve sold everything we had and left town. There’s really nothing here for me anymore. So you see, I’m really not the man some of you seem to think I am. I’m a good father to Josh, or try to be. But I let a lot of people down that night. A lot of people got hurt. And I’m paying for it.
October 18, 2006 at 12:37 am
Z – I started this reply shortly after I signed off … but decided to read through all the posts. Thannk God I did. I wondered if there was more to the story about Caroline. Thank you for sharing. I know it was not easy for you. I know peopel have told you this, but let me chime in. Life gets hectic when we’re married and the kids come along. I wouldn’t have it any other way, but that doesn’t man I don’t want peace and quiet at times or that I haven’t said to my beloved man, “Honey, they’re all yours, I need to go to the mall for a few hours!” When I go to the mall, I go alone, and I just window shop. While I window shop, I remind myself about those blessings I have at home. I’ve been where Caroline was that tragic day and let me tell you Zach, she would never have forgiven herself if you had turned around to go get the items she asked you to pick up. Even if you had picked them up and been killed on your way home, she’d be blaming herself. You owe her the respect to put this tragic accident in perspective. Yes, she will forever be your first true love and soul mate. That’s okay and any good woman worth a damn will be able to deal with that … just don’t overlook those who are worth a damn. Caroline will guide you. Stay away from Amy. It’s not normal that a woman does what she does. You owe it to your son to find a worthy woman. I really think lovesamerica has much potential. She is young, but she has maturity. I don’t want to be an internet matching service though. To put the crying thing in perspective. My husband and I have been together (dating and marriage for 22 years) and I’ve flat out cried in front of him 4 times. I just found out today that a good frined, a woman and mom, is on her deathbed. She didn’t want anyone to know how serious her breast cancer was. I went to drop a note off to her husband to let him know I’d be there for meals, help with the girls, etc, and he was pulling in to his driveway after spending the night at hospice with L. I walked up to his car and asked how she was and when he said it was a matter of hours, I just lost it. I kept telling myself, get a grip .. this poor guy is losing his soul mate and mother to his kids and he’s not losing it .. you have no right to. I couldn’t help myself and I’m feeling so badly aobut it. I’ve been crying all day on an off. I love this woman as the sister I never had and I regret that she does not know how much I loved her. I made some lasagne (with ricotta) and took it up to her beautiful young daughters. Z, Lovesam, DJ, Red Dawn, BJake … I could use some personal help now but I know the jerk ass (sorry of the language) is still monitoring the site. If you can get on the safe site, I could use some support.
Z, I do not know how you have made it through the loss of the woman you loved so much with anywhere near the sanity you have. Your dad is an idiot. Your mom … you need to forgive her and love her … she was protecting her children and she has no options. You are a tremendous man which is why Lovesam has the crush she has on you. She’s normal. She’s just young enough that there’s an age deal there. And thank you for pointing out to her that looks can only hide so much.
Lovesam … ease up on Red Dawn. You’re attractive and she is too. We women need to stick together. Super attractive women are targets of abuse from other women. How about if we judge each other on what we stand for. The beauty of this correspondence is that we don’t know what we all look like and we make judgments that way. I have dark brown eyes and they set the moon for my guy. I love green eyes, too, buy ya know what … it’s what I see in a pair of eyes that matters most. I think we’re all that way.
Z- my daughter is a horse girl. We were able to buy one with a bit of money my mom left my daughter. They’re awesome animals. If you buy one, you need another. They’re herders and need the company.
Red D – lived in Marietta, GA when I was in my late teens, early 20’s. Love the area.
October 18, 2006 at 1:58 am
Americanwoman,
I’m so sorry your good friend had such a fate. Take comfort in that she was so strong that she hid the pain and hurt from others as long as she could. That says volumes to me.
We have NO idea what God intends for each of us or even why we go through some of the trials and tribulations we do in our lives. All we can do is thank Him for each precious day and breath He gives us. Each experience makes us stronger whether we believe it or not.
I’m an ex-security specialist (translation: Air Force cop) and developed the following mind-set when it came to dealing with that career field – expect the worst and be happy with what you get. Just a grittier version of being thankful for God’s Grace. So, buck up, revel in the memory of your dear friend, and go on with your life as she would expect you to. Mourn her passing, but rejoice in the fact that she’s in a better place.
October 18, 2006 at 2:11 am
Z,
I had a feeling there was more to the story, but had no idea of the burden YOU’VE been carrying. It sounds like you’re starting to deal with the issue. Good for you, keep at it.
Still, I can’t help but ask you to continue seeking counselling or some form of help in dealing with your perceived guilt. Was her passing your fault? Partially. We all, myself included, act childish and selfish at times. Was her passing her fault? Again, partially. You said she was a bit of a lead-foot. Could her passing been avoided? Maybe and maybe not. Say you did go to the store. While gone she could have tripped and hit her head, choked on a jelly bean, I don’t know what. Bottom line, forgive yourself, forgive her, and concentrate on that beautiful boy of yours. Will the two of you do OK? Most likely, yes. Just keep you heart and eyes open for “the right one.”
As I suggested to Lovesamerica, you have to love yourself before others can love you. You may love yourself, but it sounds like you may not like yourself at times. Let it go. If you can’t let go, ask God to wrest it from your stubborn grasp.
October 18, 2006 at 3:21 am
lovesamerica–
I’m sure how that just having green eyes, like you, could possibly steal your thunder. How could this be, knowing that no one here knows what you look like nor I? This is silly.
zealot–
How you must blame yourself. If I hadn’t been so lazy, if I’d been thinking of her when I KNEW she was so tired and frazzled…
STOP IT! We ALL do this when we’re married and we all have arguements, fights, disagreements, and “why can’t you go to the store for diapers, et.”
What happened to Caroline was BEYOND YOUR CONTROL. It was Fate, so to speak. It was her time to go. WE ALL have a time. It may not seem right or fair but it is God’s timing.
You have to stop blaming yourself and truly move on. This was God’s decision; not your’s. The first act of faith outside of accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as your Saviour is accepting His will in your life and Caroline’s. Do you actually think the God of the universe did not know what was going to happen that night? That He did not know you were going to choose to rest when she went out? That she was going to have a terrible car accident?
Man, we ALL die. Sometime, somehow, someway. There is no way around that. Death NEVER seems fair.
How many people do you know that live to a ripe old age and pass “gently into the night”?
Zach, life is
tough as you well know. We must live, we must love, we must learn, and when it knocks us down, beg God for the strength to keep on going. And learn to love again. Love is everything, my friend.
Caroline does not blame you for that night. She loves you and always will.
October 18, 2006 at 3:28 am
Americanwoman–
I’m 34. Don’t think I know your real nanme yet. Are you around the same age? Slightly older? Did you ride here? You mentioned horses, I think.I love this area. But I’m in upstate SC.
October 18, 2006 at 3:38 am
Americanwoman–
If you’d like someone to talk to, I’ve free long distance. I’ll check the other site but let me know. I’d love to speak with you and you sound like you’re going through a hard time.
October 18, 2006 at 4:18 am
DJ–
You are always right on. I admire your insight.
October 18, 2006 at 7:24 am
Zach,
Listen to DJ. He said it all.
I just wish there were some magic words I could type in here that would give you a little peace from the burden you are carrying.
I don’t know the words.
I do know that Jesus carried his cross. We all have our own personal crosses. Your cross is especially heavy . We are all here to help you.
October 18, 2006 at 10:15 am
Red Dawn, your post 565…did you NOT READ what I wrote in 557? The green eyes…IT WAS A JOKE! Yeah, I can be silly, but you obviously can’t read.
American Woman, sorry to hear about your friend. I’m thinking of you. You seem like a strong woman and very kind also. I’m thinking of you.
Zach, I’m really sorry about this burden you carry. I don’t know if you will take anything I say seriously because of my age, but I do have some strong opinions of things. I disagree with Red Dawn’s analysis that what happened to you is fate. I do agree it was out of your control, but fate had nothing to do with it. To believe in fate, is to believe that God is a very cruel being. I don’t believe that. Do you really think he would give a baby to people that would beat it to death? Think of all the terrible things that happen in this world to people. Do you think God is the bad guy behind it? No way. We LIVE in a broken world. Two things determine the outcome of our lives. Our choices and the fact that God gave us free will. That makes us victims of our own choices, as well as the choices of others. The remedy, is to turn your life over to God (give your life to Christ, too) and then let God lead you in making the right choices. That doesn’t mean you’ll make mistakes, but God’s plan for you will be better than your plan. I know you don’t want to to hear this, but what happened that night with Caroline is not your fault. It’s not God’s either. Circumstances out of your control determined what happened..the rain, driving fast..whatever. DJ is right. Anything can happen to us, any way, any day. Your biggest challenge in life isn’t going to be a blazing fire, or fighting off the bad guys. It’s going to be forgiving yourself and coming to terms with this. Ask God to help you. Take the fragments of your life and give them to God. Let him put the pieces together and give you a new reason to live. You won’t forget the old. You’ll cherish it and become better. You said Caroline had an old Bible and that she was a christian. Maybe this will give you peace. You may not have been with her that night, but God was. He didn’t desert her. He sent a band of angels to get her and they carried her to him and now she’s in a beautiful place. At peace. She’s with God. She probably wouldn’t even WANT to come back here if she could. I know this is hard for you, but God is on YOUR SIDE. He wants you to be all you can be. Let him take care of this for you. Let it go, and GO ON. We’re all “work in progress”. We can all see the man you really are deep down. Be the man God created you to be. I’ll be praying for you.
October 18, 2006 at 11:15 am
Zach, one more thing, if you don’t mind. We all have an “if only” world. Most of us just use it as a place of reference, so we don’t make the same stupid mistakes again. Unfortunately, I think you’ve set up camp in yours. It’s time to pack up and move out. Our thought life is a great tool of the devil. It makes us or breaks us. Get control of yours. When you start thinking about things that hurt you, or depress you, go for that run. Do something to get your mind off of things. It’s hard to break old habits, but it can be done. Look at me, everyday I have to choose between a cookie or a carrot. My body wants the cookie, but my will wants the carrot. God didn’t make me fat. I made me fat. But, BJ is helping me and so far, it’s working. I really like you Zach, and we’re all in your corner.
American Woman, you also told me to ease up on Red Dawn. Wait a minute…..I was doing her a favor. She needs humbled. She sounds like a nice person, and I DO like her, but the first post she wrote irritated me, and I told her why, and she was tooting her horn in the very next post. I TREAT EVERYBODY the same. I don’t determine confrontations with people by their gender. People are people. And when they cross a line with me I don’t like, I push them off it. Let the chips fall. Life goes on.
October 18, 2006 at 1:29 pm
lovesamerica :
Thank you for responding to Zach . I just got too choked up by the situation and was at a loss for the right words. You and DJ said it all.
Zach – We are all a family here,your family .
I know you realize that . Please be kind to yourself . Josh needs his Daddy, he is only nine .
October 18, 2006 at 2:03 pm
Zach–
We all have an “appointed” time with death. You wouldn’t have done anything differently that night because it was exactly what was supposed to happen. God wanted to bring Caroline home. If it were not supposed to happen, he would not have allowed it. God is a just and merciful God; but he does allow situations and circumstances in this world (some of them evil)to work to achieve His Will.
The book of Job comes to mind. In one day, Job, a man blessed by God with a large family, health and wealth, lost it all. His family was killed, his wealth taken by invaders, and he became covered with painful boils. God ALLOWED Satan to do this to Job. Job is a faithful man and continuously questions God “Why, why did you do this to me? I was faithful to you, I did nothing wrong.”
Finally God responds to Job and says
“Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell ME, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang to gether, and all the sons of God shouted for joy”.
There’s much more. You can read it in Job 38 1-41 and thereafter. Job eventually responds to God:
“I know that you can do everything, and that no purpose of YOURS can be withheld from You. YOU asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’. Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things to wonderful for me, which I did not know. Listen please, and let me speak; YOU said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer me.’
“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes.” Job 42 1-6
Job never finds out WHY God allowed the tragedies to befall Job the way that they did; Job has to understand that sometimes we don’t know why God allows things to happen. We are to trust the Lord, have faith that He is just and true, try not to question Him. I think, Zach, you need to pray and ask the Lord to forgive you for your doubting of Him. He allowed what happened to happen because this was His Will. Regardless as how it may have seemed to you, it really had nothing to do with you. God was not beholden to your behaviour leading up to the accident. He could have prevented it. He did not. You, Zach, have NO RIGHT to continue trying to shoulder responsibility for this accident that took Caroline from you. If you wish that you could at least change your behaviour towards your wife that night before she left because it was not loving, ask God for forgiveness for that. But understand this; once you have asked forgiveness for it, it is no longer something to hold on to. God will no longer remember it, so who are you to?
Pray and ask God to reveal more of Himself to you so that you can begin to live in His peace, so that you can begin to truly trust this God you have given your life to. We have to KNOW someone to really trust someone, correct? Seek Him; read and pray and ask him to show Himself to you. I promise you, Zach, that true healing in your life will take place, and you will find a contentment in your soul like you have never experienced.
I hope this helps you and I pray that God will show Himself and His great love to you in a way that you can appreciate now.
September 17, 2021 at 5:39 pm
October 18, 2006 at 4:07 pm
Red Dawn, you’re words to Zach are very beautiful and very moving. I don’t personally agree with everything you said, but it doesn’t matter. What matters is that he forgives himself and allows the Lord to heal this terrible hurt. You’ve given him some great direction to finding peace in his life.
I care about everyone of you on here. A couple of you are my favorites, but all of you have wonderful qualities. This exchange won’t last forever. I’ve learned a lot from all of you and I know I’ll miss you all when it’s over.
October 18, 2006 at 9:55 pm
lovesamerica–
Thank you for your kind words. Most of what I wrote was not mine but from God. I apologize to you for coming across in the wrong way. It wasn’t my intention. Sometimes my words seem clear to me but maybe aren’t so clear to someone else.
I’ve always considered you one of my favorite people here and wish you success in all areas of your life. 🙂
October 18, 2006 at 9:56 pm
Americanwoman:
It is tough to lose a friend to cancer. It is a devastating battle that engulfs not only the patient but the whole family.
You have to be strong for the family and continue to be available to the girls in their time of need.
My best friend is going through the same struggle with his wife. Her battle has lasted 17 years. Tweo years ago she was able to attend her oldest son’s wedding.
I am sorry for your loss.
October 19, 2006 at 11:53 am
lovesamerica:
You mentioned that you are from Philadelphia.
My daughter Christina graduated from The University of the Arts in Philly in 2003. My other daughter, Gina, is considering UARTS she graduates this year. We live in NJ.
Did your treadmill come in yet?
October 19, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Big Jake, I got the treadmill yesterday. Some of my friends came over and helped me get it set up. It’s in my bedroom and my TV is on the wall up over it. I LOVE it. I had it on 3 and it does have an incline. I walked on it and then I would make it go faster and run. It has a fat burner and calorie counter on it. I did it for 20 minutes and burned 300. That was hard..maybe not for you, but I just started. When I got off my legs felt all wobbly. I’m going to do it everyday, a couple times a day. One of my good friends had a Suzanne Somers thigh master and she let me have it. She’s PRETTY and REALLY NICE, too. She’s older than me, I think somewhere in her 30’s and she’s married and has a baby but you’d never know it to look at her. She’s helping me a lot. It makes me feel good. So I’m doing other exercizes to. I don’t pee as much as I was, but I’m still drinking the water. Can I put green tea powder, or crystal light powder in the water? Water is awfully boring. I lost 4 pounds already.
Your daughter went to school in Philly so you must’ve been there before. I’m actually from a suburb. I like the North better than the South. Believe it or not I miss winter. I like the snow. I like it to leave, but I’m glad when it comes. I miss my friends and family, too. I want to go home. Now I want to be skinny so when I get home I can surprise everyone when I get there. I wanted to go home for the holidays but I may not be able to. I don’t have much time in here, and the people that have more seniority get the best vacation picks. There is a lady I work with that has it off, and she’s taken a liking to me, so she said she might trade with me so I can go home because she knows how homesick I am. I hope so.
Thanks again for everything. I’m blowing you a big kiss.
October 19, 2006 at 10:07 pm
Red Dawn, just so you know, I didn’t fight with Caroline that night. As always she was very loving. She knew I’d had a hard day and was tired. She sat and talked with me while I ate my dinner. We both played with Josh before she left and she had put him to bed. The last thing she said to me was I love you, I’ll be right back. I’m okay until I start thinking about her and remembering things. I try not to think about the night of the accident but after sharing it with you, it’s been on my mind again. I get sick and don’t sleep very well. Thank all of you for your thoughts. I have a great friend that is there for me whenever I need it. I talk a lot with our chaplan and I’m okay. I have to be, for Josh. It’s just is a hard to thing to have in your life.
October 20, 2006 at 7:14 am
Zach:
I am sorry it has taken me so long to get this out to you. I have been very troubled about the burden you are carrying regarding the night Caroline passed away.
If you recall in post 273 I wrote:
Zealot , I believe I don’t have to tell you that your beautiful wife still lives . She lives through you in everything you do as you raise your beautiful son. Look deeply into his eyes and you will see the reflection of her soul.
As he grows ,nourish him with the stories of his mother and her love for both of you. Love NEVER dies. It is just a dream postponed until we meet again.
In Post 517 you wrote:
Big Jake, I am moved by all of this. I do feel pulled to find out my roots. My Mom’s parents died a long time ago. I never knew my grandmother and my grandfather died befoe I was five. I was very little, but I remember sitting on my Grandfather’s lap and he looked very old. I remember thinking that and I remember him calling me “eyes of the wolf”. I told you my eyes are blue. They’re not dark blue, they’re an icey blue, like a wolf. My mother told me one time that my grandfather told her that I would have a war in my spirit and for her not to interfere with that war. That it was necessary. He said for her not to fear, that I would have a time of reckoning. That the two spirits would reconcile and become one. There was a path before me and one day I would follow that path and not to stop me. I would’ve thought it would come before now, but lately I do feel like I need to search out my heritage. I have always been restless. Maybe you are part of my path. Stumbling on this website. All of it. It makes me wonder. The prayer ties sound similiar to a rosary. The part that really got to me, was when he said he went to Eureka Springs. I have been there myself. I went to the Passion Play and they have a huge Jesus statue up on a hill that you can see for miles. I walked up that hill to the statue and remember being awed by it’s size. I always loved being in the woods. I find a peace there that I can’t describe. This may sound funny to you and I don’t even understand it myself, but I have even imagined myself going back in time, having long hair, riding the plains and wearing war paint. I feel a pride in that and I don’t understand why because my mother never encouraged it. Thanks a lot for sending me this info. I believe you and I have a destiny.
In post 531 I wrote:
Your Grandfather said that the two Spirits would merge and become one.
I was waiting in my car for Carmen and my son Louis to return after his guitar lesson and I happened to look to the sky.
It was a very windy day today. A hawk was soaring, effortlessly while other birds wer fighting the wind and being tossed back and forth ,up and down. The hawk did not flap its wings at all . It just caught the breeze or gust and effortlessly rose or swooped . I compared it to human beings trying to get ahead ,getting caught up in the rat-race of life (the other birds). But the hawk ,he just lets God direct him as if in constant communion
Which way ,Lord ? Quo Vadis ,Domini?
I think that the two spirits are your Pawnee and European heritage . You are the product of
those two spirits and both spirits are calling you to make them whole as well as yourself.
I think it was your grandfather who caused me to look up and notice the hawk and then tell you about it.
In post 532 you wrote:
Caroline and I were walking one time and I told her how I felt about my Dad and that I was a big failure to him. She stopped and put her hands on my face and told me she LOVED who I was and that she was so proud of me and that she felt lucky to have me. Those are the best words she ever said to me.
…. I had a great marriage and I like what I do. I never cheated on my wife or abused her. Things were tight for awhile when we first got married, but we did okay for ourselves. She didn’t work after Josh was born. Only a couple of days a week at her parents greenhouse. We were happy.
She still loves you and is watching over you and Josh. She wants you to know that.
Zach , I think Caroline and your grandfather are deeply concerned about you. That is what this is all about. They represent the two cultures that are calling to you to make you whole.
What are the chances that you and I would interact through this website? My own personal
experience prepared me to help you.
I tell you in all honesty ,I thought I was losing my mind after my father passed away. I researched near death phenomena,I read everything I could on the afterlife,whether or not God exists, I even met Elisabeth Kubler Ross ,the author of “On Death and Dying” .She was the foremost authority on near death experience.
I saw “Field of Dreams” over and over . I even grew a large Corn patch in my backyard. I would go back there when the corn grew in and meditate.
Remember ,I wasn’t a praying man at the time. Once ,while back there, I was feeling very depressed and alone, or should I say abandoned. I noticed some sparrows in a nearby tree. And then a small internal voice said:
“Behold the birds of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are you not much better than they?”
Matthew 6:25-26
It ultimately gave me peace and a deeper faith.
I have posted the following article on after death contact. I believe it is possible . I believe that our departed loved ones are “in the next room ,behind the veil” .We can’t see them but they can see us and give us strength if we are open to them.
——————————————————————————–
Chapter One
After-Death Contact – A Common Experience
Has someone you know lost a beloved partner? If they confide that they’ve sometimes sensed their lost mate’s presence, don’t assume that grief has tipped them over the edge.
Studies by doctors, psychologists, social workers and public opinion researchers confirm that experiences of apparent contact with the dead are commonplace all over the world. For instance, over half the healthy, normal widows and almost as large a percentage of widowers in the United States sense the presence of their departed mates at least once afterwards. Such experiences are usually unexpected and spontaneous, not invited in any way. They are also directthey do not involve mediums.
Apparent contacts are most common in the first year after a partner passes on, but they may recur for years, even for decades. Most such seeming visits from “beyond the veil” are perceived as pleasant; a significant few bring guidance or information that it would seem could only come from a spirit source.
This book documents over a hundred such contact experiences, as reported since 1998 by the normal, everyday folks who experienced them. The majority of them are not bereaved spouses; virtually anyone may perceive contact with the dead. It’s common for sane, active women and men to sense contact with their deceased parents or children, with grandparents, siblings or friends. But because more research has been done on widows and widowersin England and Wales, Japan, Norway and Sweden, as well as in the United Statesit’s easier to cite statistics about their experiences. In 1983 I myself was widowed. Soon I was confronted by mysteries unlike any I’d ever imagined.
HOW THE ADVENTURE BEGAN FOR ME
I was well into my forties—a college professor and the published author of a scholarly book about contemporary architecture—when a startling event forced me to ponder whether spirits can survive and contact the living. Since then, further personal experiences plus lots of research have taught me that the death of the body is not the end of all consciousness. Instead, it’s a doorway to something else.
When I was widowed in 1983, I had been married for ten years to a man named Paul. It was not a first marriage for either of us. Paul was a warm and loving man, committed to helping me raise my son by a previous marriage. He was also an outspoken atheist but that hardly bothered me since I had considered myself an agnostic for as long as I’d understood the meaning of the word.
Two years after our wedding—in a Unitarian-Universalist church that didn’t require belief in God or the afterlife—a massive hemorrhage caused by diabetic retinopathy destroyed the vision of Paul’s right eye. For two more years he got by reasonably well until, in November of 1977, a smaller hemorrhage damaged his other eye. Since he could still read if he had lots of light, he bought himself a floor lamp whose four bulbs together gave off 330 watts. In time that lamp would have a momentous effect on my life.
My son and I never used more than its top bulb. We called it “Paul’s lamp.” For a time my husband’s vision improved. But then came a second hemorrhage, then another and another. By 1981, Paul was totally blind. Around New Year’s Day, 1983, he came down with pneumonia. Three weeks later Paul passed on.
I never expected to sense him near me again. The day after his memorial service, I felt particularly lonely, let down. My 16 year-old son had a paper due in school the next day; I was pressing him to put his draft into final form so I could type it for him. (Computer printers were not yet commonplace.) We were standing in the living room of the Manhattan highrise apartment where we had lived for 14 years. Paul’s lamp, unlit, was a few feet away. Suddenly it turned itself on and started flashing strangely, short flashes of light that came infrequently and seemingly in response to things we said.
Nothing like this had ever happened since Paul bought that lamp several years before. And there was nothing wrong with the wiring in the building. Nothing else in the apartment seemed to be affected. The refrigerator still droned on; our hallways light glowed on, unchanging. Suddenly my son and I both sensed that Paul was contacting us. How better could he let us know that he was near and now he could tell the difference between light and dark?
Twice that evening, Paul’s lamp came on by itself and flickered for a time mysteriously. Afterwards, returning to our accustomed skepticism, we checked its bulbs and switches and the outlet where it was plugged in. Nothing we found accounted for the way that it had behaved.
The next day I visited our church to pick up some phonograph records that had been played at Paul’s memorial service. There I ran into Prabat, a Hindu friend of Paul’s. Prabat was an engineer, a thickset man in his fifties. As soon as he caught sight of me, his face lit up. “I’m so glad to see you,” he said. “I have something to tell you. Paul came to me in a dream. He took my hand. You know how he used to shake hands, very strong, very firm. I could feel him with my hand. He said he was happy now so I asked him to tell me more, to tell me where he was and how it was, you know, to die—but then he disappeared and the next thing … I woke up.”
Prabat laughed. “That dream was so real. I got out of bed and looked all over the house for him.” That was when I told him what had happened with Paul’s lamp. “You mustn’t worry,” he said, it’s perfectly natural. For thirty days after someone dies, he can wander the earth at will.”
He was speaking out of his Hindu tradition, happy to share it with me. So that’s what Hindus believe, I thought. There are hundreds of millions of Hindus in the world, I figured, not to mention all the Buddhists who believe in reincarnation and the Chinese who practice ancestor worship, so they must believe in spirit survival too. Maybe, I decided, it might not be crazy to believe that Paul’s spirit may have survived.
THINKING ABOUT SURVIVAL OF THE SPIRIT
Soon I ran across data on the multitude of people from different countries who had had experiences that resembled my own. For instance, when in their European Human Values Study, Gallup pollsters asked, “Have you ever felt that you were really in touch with someone who had died?” 33% of Italians said yes, as did 26% in Great Britain and West Germany. Icelanders topped the list with 41%. For Asians who, like my friend Prabat, took survival of the spirit for granted, the rate of contact experiences was over twice as high.
A study of mourning in Japan reported that 27 out of 30 Tokyo widows whose husbands had recently died in car accidents sensed their presence afterwards. Its author, a Japanese-American psychiatrist, pointed out that Japan’s two religions, Buddhism and Shinto, both assume the presence of the deceased, at least at times. “According to traditional rites,” he noted, “the spirits of the deceased can be called back to this worldusually by shamanistic rites similar to those widespread throughout Asia…. [If you were Japanese you would feel] in direct daily communication with your ancestors. The family altar would be your ‘hot line’…. You could … ring the bell, light incense, and talk over the current crisis with one whom you have loved and cherished.”
But even in Western cultures, responsible research by skilled professionals documented that healthy, normal individuals often sensed apparent contact with the dead. Here, offered chronologically, are some tidbits I came up with:
Interviews with 66 widowers and 227 widows in an area of Wales almost all of those healthy enough to be interviewedrevealed that half the widowers and 46% of the widows had sensed some kind of after-death communication [ADC] with their departed mate. (Vivid dreams that seemed like visits from a loved one were not counted.) According to W. D. Rees, the general practitioner who reported this research in 1971, ADCs were usually perceived as helpful and pleasant. Those who had them were not particularly depressed or socially isolated. Instead, they were more likely to have had longer marriages, happier marriages, and marriages with children. Though ADCs were most likely to occur within the first year after a loved one’s passing, sometimes they recurred for years, even decades. Often they continued after the widowed spouse remarried.
A 1970’s survey of residents of Los Angeles which drew samples from white, black, Japanese- and Mexican-American neighborhoods found that 44% of the 434 people interviewed thought they had had encounters with someone who was dead. Over a quarter of those who reported such an encounter said that the dead person actually visited or was seen at a seance.
The ambitious Harvard Bereavement Study of widows and widowers from the Boston area followed scores of subjects for four years after they lost their mates. Three weeks after their loss, 44% of those who expressed a high degree of yearning for their dead spouse felt that “My husband/wife knows and sees everything I do.” More surprising, almost a third of those in the “Low Yearning” category also agreed with this statement. Most of the widows sensed that their husband was with them some or all of the time. “One reported hearing her husband come to the door after work and put his key in the lock. Four others reported catching sight of their husband out of the corner of their eyes. In one case he was sitting in the living room … in another he was standing by the door.” The widows found this sense of presence comforting.
Interviewed thirteen months after bereavement, almost half agreed with the statement that “I have a feeling that my husband watches over me.” The researchers stressed that their subjects were not psychotic and, observed that since “bereaved people are often reluctant to reveal information … that might be taken to indicate mental illness,” these figures were probably an undercount.
In 1982, an Arizona psychologist, David Balk, interviewed a sample of normal American teenagers who had lost a sister or brother. About half of them at times had thought they saw or heard their dead sibling. Several reported occurrences that they felt “involved actual contact with the sibling.”
In 1985, a team of Americans headed by P. Richard Olson, MD, studied 52 widowed people in a North Carolina nursing home, none of whom appeared to be mentally ill or confused. Over 60% of the 46 widows had sensed their husbands with them after death in some way. For almost all of them, the experience was a pleasant one. Two of the six widowers in the nursing home reported similar experiences.
Some of the most interesting data on American experiences of contact with the dead have been pulled together by Andrew Greeley, the distinguished sociologist, novelist and Catholic priest. Writing in 1989 he reported that in a poll conducted by the National Opinion Research Center (NORC), 42% of Americans said that at least once they’d felt that they “were really in touch with someone who had died.” Impressed by the Olson study cited above, Greeley sorted through the data from that NORC poll to see how its widowed respondents had answered this question. “Of the 149 widowed,” he reported, “129 were women and 20 were men. The proportion of widows reporting contact with the dead ‘at least once or twice’ was 64 percent.”
Recently, a few researchers doing surveys of this kind have reassured their interview subjects that normal people often have “illusions or hallucinations” of loved ones who have passed on. Their rates of positive responses have gone through the roof.
A 1993 study measured the feelings of 20 American university students, 18 – 27 years old, who had lost a parent at least two years before. The great majority of them agreed strongly with the statement, “I feel he/she is still with me at times.”
A 1993 Swedish study of 14 widowers and 36 widows in their seventies found that one month after bereavement, 89% of the women and 57% of the men reported some kind of after-death communicationthis even though ADCs “are hardly recognized in Sweden. They are spoken about neither publicly nor among close friends.” Only after these widows and widowers were told that such sensations were common did they “speak freely, expressing relief from thoughts that they ‘might become or be considered insane.'” A year after bereavement, over half of them reported that they were still sensing contact with their lost mates.
A 1995 study of Norwegian women, 44 – 79 years old, who had lost their husbands or live-in partners showed similar results. Soon after bereavement, almost three-quarters of them (29 out of 39) sometimes sensed their lost mate’s presence. And a year later, two-thirds of them were still sensing ADCs.
Even more striking was an in-depth study by a Massachusetts psychologist, Dr. Roberta Dew Conant, of ten white middle-class, middle-aged homeowners who had recently lost their husbands. In Conant’s opinion, all of them were adjusting well to their bereavement. Yet every one of them reported that, at least once, she had experienced “unbidden, consoling ‘sense of presence’ of the deceased.” Their ADCs took many forms but most interesting to me for obvious reasons was the widow who reported that many important family events “were accompanied by flickering lights. The family ‘came to believe’ that dimming lights meant the deceased husband was communicating his presence.”
Over the past few years, evidence for ADCs has mounted. In two scholarly yet eminently readable books, Louis E. LaGrand, Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus at the State University of New York, discusses after death contacts from the point of view of a certified grief counselor. In Talking to Heaven, a bestselling book by a well-known medium, James Van Praagh, lists “ways spirits let their loved ones know that they are around them without the use of a medium.” Topping that list is lights, followed by other electrically operated devices. In Hello from Heaven!, Bill and Judy Guggenheim supply 353 thumbnail accounts of contact experiences culled from over 2,000 interviews. They document that spirits may come to us via many routes including dreams, the five senses and, yes, the meaningful misbehavior of electrical devices.
As my research on ADCs progressed, I decided to take a leap and do a series of interviews of my own. The prospect was tempting since I have a master’s degree in sociology and have always found survey work fascinating. Besides, though I have the highest regard for the achievements of the Guggenheims and Prof. LaGrand, it is always useful in a field as new as this for independent researchers to replicate still controversial studies. My goal was not just to collect stories of spontaneous after-death contacts but to get a handle on who was most likely to experience them. Perhaps, I hoped, frequent perceivers of contact would open up to me, knowing that I myself had often sensed contact with a departed loved one.
Later I would discover that Father Greeley had called for interviews of just this sort. In 1975, drawing on a study of over 1,400 Americans done by NORC, he sketched out a profile of psychics, noting that people who grew up in a home where there was considerable tension were particularly likely to experience clairvoyance, telepathy and deja vu. He also explored the phenomenon of contact with the dead. But lamenting the limitations of standard polling, he pointed out that, “We are badly handicapped by the fact that we were unable to ask our respondents any more than whether they had had such experiences. It would be important to know whether the experiences were dreaming or awake, whether there was conversation with the dead person [and] what the circumstances were at the time of contact….”
Since the early 1990s when I started talking openly about my own paranormal experiences, I’ve discussed ADCs with hundreds who had experienced them firsthand. Since 1998, I’ve done 78 in-depth interviews with women and men who had had ADCs. All interviews were taped, transcribed, then analyzed. Twelve of my informants were personally known to my husband and/or me; several had been our friends for many years. The experiences they reported provided a standard of comparison for the stories of the others. As it turned out, there was no significant difference between the two groups of stories.
All but one of my informants gave every evidence of coping with their lives with at least average sanity and skill. They’ve told me not just about the ADCs they’ve had but far, far more. They’ve described their religious and spiritual backgrounds: what they were taught to believe and what they’ve come to believe as a result of spirit contacts. They’ve told me the context out of which their experiences flowed. They’ve entrusted me with secrets, some of which they had never shared before with another living soul. It has been humbling for meyet enriching beyond measure. I have tried to keep faith with them, to mine wisdom out of their precious ore.
CONTACT EXPERIENCES AND THOSE WHO HAVE THEM
What constitutes a contact experience? The stereotypical contact, only too familiar to us from stage, screen and TV, is a visual one. Our trembling heroine sees a threatening ghost, our flabbergasted hero tries to deal with his late wife, glowing greenly and trailing filmy chiffon. Is this the way it really is? Well, not exactly.
Only one-eighth of the contact-with-the-dead experiences I collected involved sight at all. Some of these did indeed involve seeing a departed loved one, wholly or in part, clearly or hazily. But many other sight experiences involved seeing lights turn on or off or flicker at a particularly meaningful time, for no perceptible physical reason. (See Chapter 9 for more about these.) Still others involved the movement of an object, usually very small, associated with the lost persona ribbon or a photo or a cherished tiny figurine. (Chapter 11 tells more about these.)
Three other senseshearing, touch and smellwere mentioned about as frequently as sight but the most common vehicle for a contact experience was a vivid dream. Those who had ADCs in dreams reported that these dreams felt substantially different from the garden variety; many years later, they might remember them in loving detail. Sometimes their vivid dreams conveyed information they hadn’t known before. More often the loved ones they perceived in dreams seemed to be visiting to reassure the dreamer that they were all right or to urge the dreamer to stop mourning and get on with his or her life. (Chapter 15 tells more about vivid, paranormal dreams.)
Almost as frequently, people perceived contact with the dead via telepathic communication, symbolic events, or that subtle awareness called “sense of presence.” Telepathic communication, also called extra-sensory perception or ESP, is probably the best known of these three. (Though it generally involves communication between living persons it also occurs frequently between the dead and the living.) Many of the symbolic events reported to me involved extraordinary behavior by an animal or bird. Chapter 12 tells stories of a hummingbird and a fox, an owl, several beloved dogs and a wildly running horse, all of which conveyed information or comfort through their actions.
Clearly some people have many more ADCs than others. I myself was never aware of having any until I was in my forties; then I started having lots of them. Being widowed makes it a lot more likely that you’ll have contact experiences. But a number of the people I interviewed, over two-thirds of whom had never been widowed, had had five or more ADCs; often they started having them early in life. It’s fair to call these people “sensitives.” In many another culture, given their ability to receive messages from the spirit world, they might be groomed as shamans or mediums. What gave them their special powers? In Chapter 16, I offer evidence from a number of scholarly studies that certain kinds of childhood experiences tend to create sensitives.
Only too many people in our society believe that all talk of contact with spirits is just so much wish fulfillment and woowoo fantasy. I, too, was brought up to think this way. In the university settings where I earned three degrees, denial of anything that implied that there might be spiritual forces afoot in the world seemed to be an article of faith. Yes, an article of faith. Like Madonna, we were all supposed to be materialand materialisticgirls and boys focused on making our mark in the one short life we had.
Now skepticism may well be a healthy stance from which to view many intellectual issuesbut only if the skeptic is open-minded enough to take in all the evidence and move on accordingly. Unfortunately, only too often we run into close-minded, compulsive disbelievers determined not to acknowledge the conclusions argued by the facts. For them, denial of anything resembling an afterlife seems to be a kneejerk reaction. Such readers probably abandoned this book several pages ago. But for those whose minds are open, I offer the next two chapters. Both of them, I think, offer irrefutable evidence for the survival of the human spirit after death.
Excerpted from When Spirits Come Calling by Sylvia Hart Wright. ©2002, Blue Dolphin Publishing. Used by permission.
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October 20, 2006 at 7:26 am
lovesamerica:
4 POUNDS! keep up the good work!
You can add something to the water if you like. Just be careful not to add anything with alot of sugar. Be careful with the green tea mix. It is loaded with sugar. Use the Crystal light instead.
Make sure you snack and eat the right things. Don’t go hungry. It defeats the purpose and you will end up binging.
Way to go ,Amy!
October 20, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Jake, I don’t know about this stuff. Truthfully, it makes me feel uncomfortable. Maybe it’s because I don’t understand it. I don’t give a crap if my grandfather sees anythng I do, but I DO give a crap if Caroline does. That not only makes me feel uncomfortable, but it makes me feel bad. For one thing, she had a jealous streak. I’ve been with some women since she’s been gone. I don’t think she’d handle that very well. I wouldn’t be able to handle seeing her with another man if I was the one that was gone. The girl I told you I almost married after she died was an old flame that I had off an on for years before Caroline and I got together. I was seeing her when I met Caroline. Caroline was only 19 when we met and I was 22. I dumped the old flame after the first date with Caroline. I was hooked, bad. I fell hard. I was probably hooked before the date because I wanted her from the first time I saw her. Those two women hated each other. The old flame came around after Caroline died. I can’t tell you how many times she would see me out, I’d be drunk, and she’d drive me home and stay and take care of me. I told you I was a mess then. Plus, I knew this girl always loved me and I knew Josh needed someone to mother him, so I figured she was a good bet. I wasn’t thinking straight, I was lonely, she was there. But, thank God, I got some sense and knew it was all wrong and ended it. Like I said, she’s a nice girl, but, I was still in love with my wife. I still am. Caroline really resented this girl. If she ever saw me with her, I don’t know, I think if she saw that, in this life she would’ve killed us both. It makes me feel pretty funny. Actually, I don’t think I’d ever do anything with anybody again if I thought Caroline would see it. You’re freaking me out. I need to get some sleep so when I get up I’ll check back on here and see what you have to say about this.
October 21, 2006 at 3:02 am
Zach:
Let’s get one thing straight. You have always been faithful to Caroline.
you wrote:
…. I had a great marriage and I like what I do. I never cheated on my wife or abused her. Things were tight for awhile when we first got married, but we did okay for ourselves. She didn’t work after Josh was born. Only a couple of days a week at her parents greenhouse. We were happy.
You made your wife very happy. You completed her life. You loved each other during your time together. God had other plans for her. Other tasks for her to accomplish. You still have more to do in this life.
I previously wrote that love never dies . It is just a dream postponed until we meet again.
The one thing that I’ve learned is that this life is a crucible . It melts away the impurities so we can go on to our eternal destination, with God forever in Heaven.
Caroline is pure love – having gone through the crucible of this life and having seen the face of God. That’s a love beyond our understanding. Full acceptance no matter what.
October 21, 2006 at 10:34 am
Okay. I just wouldn’t want her to see me doing things that I know in this life would hurt her. Red Dawn wrote somewhere that I memorialized her in my heart and that she could do no wrong in my eyes. I don’t know if that’s true, maybe it is a little, but Caroline WAS perfect to me, or maybe I should say FOR me. She new how to handle me. She had a mellow personality,and rarely got mad at me for anything. She was easy to be faithful to, #1, because I loved her, and #2, because she made our homelife so comfortable. I loved coming home at night. I couldn’t wait to be with her. She always looked pretty when I came home. She always smelled so good. I always felt like she was waiting for me. When guys at work would complain about their wives, they used to ask me why I didn’t. I always told them I had the deluxe edition. Can’t complain. I don’t want to sound like a wimp, but I hurt inside for her. It’s been over 7 years since she died, and I can’t shake that feeling. It’s been bad the last few days because I’ve been thinking about the accident. I even dreamt about her a couple of nights ago. The counselling the fire dept. set me up with did help me and I’m not unstable anymore. I was suicidal for a while. The counseller described it as “unconsious” suicidal behavior. I’m not like that anymore. I do like being alive. And I enjoy my life with Josh. But I am empty. This afterlife contact stuff…so, you think I can see Caroline now? My wimp side is afraid of that. I’m not sure it would be her that I would see. Maybe some demon pretending to be her. I’ve seen the Omen and the Exorcist so Hollywood has messed with my brain a little bit. A few years ago a vacant building caught on fire and there was some weird things going on in that building. They could never find the origin of the fire and underneath it they found bones of animals and people. They never found out the I.D. of the bodies but they knew they had been dead for hundreds of years. It was weird because while we were all in there, it was like the fire had it’s own personality. We all got creepy feelings and we got freaked because we could hear screaming but no one was in there. I coldn’t wait to get out of there. So I do think there’s some weird things going on around us. If I get the chance I’ll watch Frequency this weekend. Keep in touch with me about this. I hope I don’t say things that irritate you. Sometimes when I type I get on a roll and don’t know when to shut up. I’m not like this in “real” life. I’m really very quiet.
October 21, 2006 at 1:53 pm
Zach:
Little Brother, nothing you say can irritate me.
And you are not a wimp.
My post #292:
By the way, if I was ever in a fight ,I’d be lucky to have someone like you backing me up.
Courage and honor ,Spirit and Guts.
your post #295:
I believe my wife is in heaven, so if I ever want to see her again, I better make sure I get there too. So, I asked Jesus to come in to my heart a few minutes ago, and it’s weird, but I feel so good about it. I’m going to tell my son and the rest of my family. I don’t know much about this or even what I’m doing, but it just feels right.
Jesus will never abandon you. Don’t forget that.
After my father died ,my faith went through a crucible and became much stronger. I meditated ,read, volunteered at a soup kitchen,
and developed my prayer life.
I don’t pray as often now but maybe I do .Let me explain.
I was under a tremendous amount of stress. I wasn’t sleeping. The only thing that gave me any comfort was when I prayed. In a prayerful moment I asked Jesus to help me pray, so I would never be separated from Him . Then it came to me. I had read of a “breath prayer ”
which has something to do with meditation.
Maybe it was my anxiety at the time , I heard my own heart beating . I listened to it.
As it beat I heard “My Lord and my God,my Lord and my God”. I just listened to my heart speak to me and for me.
Zach, try it .You have asked Jesus to come into your heart. Now dedicate your heart to him in prayer.Then as long as you live and breathe,
whether you are aware of it or not ,you are praying.
Regarding Caroline, I believe she is your soulmate. You will meet again in Heaven. But remember your wedding vows. “Till death do us part.” What does this mean?
It means that your earthly marriage is for a limited duration. You have been faithful to your beautiful wife ,gave her tremendous happiness, together brought your beautiful son into the world and together shared a loving and fulfilling relationship. You have completed her life. With all she was to acomplish here fulfilled, Jesus called her home.
You are looking at the situation from a mortal point of view . Caroline is looking at it from an immortal vantage point.
You say that you do things you wouldn’t want Caroline to see. From her vantage point ,I assure you it doesn’t matter. She looks down to you with pure love ,she has been in the presence of God ,the Saints and the Angels in Heaven. There is no jealousy in Heaven, no anger ,no unpleasantness.
Love never dies, it is a dream postponed until we meet again. She is waiting for you, so live your life to the fullest.
I am glad you are going to see Frequency this weekend. I understand why you haven’t listened to me and watched the movies I suggested to you yet. It is too emotional for you. I’ve been there. Please listen to me. If you watch the movies , more of what I am telling you will make sense.
The creative process is based on inspiration, a gift from God. These writers have gone through something that gave them a message to dispense .
I have seen all the movies I am recomending to you. We can discuss them as they pretain to you and your situation.
I also suggest that you let your chaplain view this website so he can counsel you more effectively.
Regarding Caroline, I have previously suggested “Always” with Richard Dreyfus. Add to the list “Ghost” with Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore and What Dreams May Come ” with Robin Williams , Annabella Sciorra and Cuba Gooding Junior.
And Eyes of the Wolf , your grandfather is calling to you. I get these feelings and have gotten them ever since my father died and I became more sensitive to it. Normally I would have ignored it or not paid any attention.
I don’t know if it is your grandfather or my imagination. I can just give you my impression. Regarding the articles (the one by Jim Twofeathers), I do a search and pick one that seems appropriate. The randomness I attribute to inspiration from the other side , You will understand what I am talking about if you see “Always”.
I hope this helps you . We all are here for you.
October 21, 2006 at 10:15 pm
Jake, I stopped at my sister’s this afternoon. I asked her if Mom had ever said anything to her about her (Mom’s) family and our heritage. She said Mom didn’t talk much about it because HER family didn’t want her to marry my father. I guess they tried to prevent it because they didn’t like my father. I like these people already. I guess they kind of disowned my Mom. Then I told Kara, (my sister) that I was thinking about requesting next summer off (leave of absence), taking Josh with me and go look them up. Maybe go to Oklahoma and check in to the Pawnee thing. She got irritated. She told me to leave well enough alone and to get on with my life. She said there’s always something with me and no wonder Dad throws his hands up in the air all the time when my name comes up. I started to tell her to relax and where to stick it, and her husband (Rick) comes in and starts to say something to me, so I gave him the look. (My sister told me a long time ago that Rick told her he would never want to get on my bad side) so he just walked into the other room. He’s a bit of a stuffed shirt but he’s a good guy. Anyway, what’s up with that? Why wouldn’t she want to know? I’m getting in to this heritage stuff, and into the dead people sending me signs thing, too. It’s intriging to me. My spelling is horrible, sorry. My father is going to some convention in Michigan in a couple of weeks. If my Mom doesn’t go with him, I’ll talk to her when he’s not around. By the way, Amy’s history. I told her what DJ advised me, about the heritage, and she blew a gasket. DJ was right. She did offer to come with me. When I told her I didn’t think that was a good idea, she blew a gasket. Boy, she’s a hot head. I can’t handle it. Name caller, mean. She shrieks when she yells and it about kills me. I’ve never been with a woman who’s a screamer. I don’t like it at all. Her husband is probably glad he died.
October 21, 2006 at 11:13 pm
Zach:
Regarding your sister, You said she was daddy’s little girl. Don’t be too hard on her. She is a product of her enviornment. You should explain to her that you are doing some soul searching and the Oklahoma trip is part of the process.
Remind her that you are 38 years old and this is something you have to do as a man.
Tell her that you have to do this because you need to find out about yourself so you can develop a better relationship with your father.
Tell her that it bothers you when your father throws his hands up in the air during your interactions. You want a relationship with him based on mutual love and respect. Tell her that you love him too much to have a relationship that is not based on this, that the relationship you have has so far given you both alot of heartache and now is the time to make it better.
Tell her that you are 38 years old and you want this kind of a relationship now . you don’t want any regrets in the future .
Tell her that you love her and need her love, respect and understanding because she is the only sister you will ever have.
And by the way, tell her that you think your brother-in -law is a good guy.
Regarding Amy, if she is shrill now ,she will become a banshee if you marry her. You are better off without her.
October 22, 2006 at 2:51 am
lovesamerica:
We were in Philly today . University of the Arts had an open house for prospective students.
How ‘s the diet going? Another good snack is unbuttered popcorn. You can pop it yourself in a hot air corn popper or you can buy the low fat micro-wave packs
October 22, 2006 at 4:16 am
Re: Z #586. I wouldn’t bother too much with your sister. A “Daddys girl” will see no wrong in her father, even the abusive ones, at times. It’s apparent which genes are dominant in her. As Big Jake said, tell her you love her, but you have to answer a calling that she may never understand. If she doesn’t accept that, then it’s her problem, not yours. Take the journey, “Eyes of the Wolf.” I predict it will be a major bonding experience in your relationship with your son.
lovesamerica: Congrats on your decision to begin changing your life! You’ll be glad you did. It is soooo easy to slip into unhealthy habits/behavior. I personally decided to cut back on alcohol. I haven’t had a problem with it, I just lost interest in drinking as often as I had. I think my running three times a week is part of it, so you should see some noticable changes in a while since you got your treadmill routine going.
Another year for me; turned 49 today (21 Oct). We went to Mexico (just 45 min from where we live) for a late lunch and just walked the streets looking at trinkets. Wished y’all were there so I could buy ya a beverage of your choice.
Well, I’m gonna sign off for tonight. I think I’ll see if Paula has any other presents for me. ; )
October 22, 2006 at 12:46 pm
DJ, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! I hope you got everything you WANTED for your birthday. We’ll know if you’re tired today that you probably did. You lucky dog.
Jake & DJ, thanks for the advice on talking with my sister. But, I don’t really talk like that to people, you know, deep like that. I only do that on here. Kara and I are close and we squabble and tease each other. She’s been my lifeline to sanity most of my life. My relationship with my parents is dysfunctional so she’s alwasy been the middleman. Keeping peace. When I did that to the guy that hurt her, she didn’t even know it until Caroline told her. She showed up at my house after she found out while I was mowing the lawn. At first, she acted concerned and she told me I shouldn’t have done that. Then she just hugged me and whispered in my ear, but I’m glad you did, I love you. That’s all that was ever said about it. She knows I’d always be there for her. I don’t think my parents even know I did that unless Kara told them. When I tried to tell my Dad that day all he did was flip out and smack me in the face. I just left. I wanted to go at him but I didn’t. As much as I’ve felt like it, I don’t think I would ever hit my father. And I DO like Rick and she knows it. So does he. I’m over there a lot. When my sister & I have our little squabbles about things he usually just stays out of it. They have two kids now. He’s very good to her and he’d do anything for her. He’s a good man. He’s the business professional and talks real smart, you know the type. He drinks cocktails, I drink beer. Although he HAS gone out for beers with me before. It just doesn’t suit him. I don’t care what he does as long as he’s good to my sister, and he is. They have a nice family and I like going over there.
And I never thought much about marrying Amy. I liked her a lot, she has a great body and is nice looking. That was most of it. To be honest, that was probably ALL of it. I was in lust, not love. Evil me. She can be nice, but, she’s not for me. I couldn’t handle her. I’d probably get slapped around a lot if she were my wife. She’s a screamer and a hitter. I told my buddy about that and he told me to get away from her. He said she was the beatable type and I’d end up decking her eventually. He said it jokingly. I don’t think I could ever hit a woman. I’m not like that. I’d just leave her. I have no plans on getting married again. I want a woman around, but I’m not looking for a wife. I wouldn’t shack up with anybody either but I’d like to have a hot and heavy thing going. What can I say, I’m a chauvinist I guess. What women call a jerk. I like things the way they are right now, just me and Josh, but I do like women. And by the way, Jake, I’m 37. I won’t be 38 until 2-21. I hope I’m as lucky on my birthday as DJ.
October 22, 2006 at 9:13 pm
Big Jake: You were in Philly!!! That is so cool. Maybe someday I’ll bump into you there. Wouldn’t that be something? It’s a small world and anything can happen. I hope I don’t disappoint you when I tell you this, but I had two pieces of pizza Sat. night. Couldn’t resist, but I didn’t gain any weight. I got on the treadmill as soon as I got home, even tho it was 2:00am. I walked until I burned 500 calories. A bunch of us went out and we were all hungry at the end of the evening. I know have to be careful about doing that.
DJ: HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU, HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU…I’m singing. Thank the Lord you can’t hear me. My dog is howling. I have to say, you are so funny. I bet you keep your wife in stitches. I’d love to know you.
Zach: Speaking of disappointment, you’ve dropped a peg or two on my pedestal. I know you’re a young, healthy male, but you have such a cavalier attitude toward sex. You say you like us, but you don’t seem to care if a woman falls for you, and then you use her, and when you’re all done or bored, or see someone prettier you move right on. That’s clearly not very nice. People have feelings. I know women look at sex differently than men but still, you shouldn’t use people. You say you’re not looking for a wife, well, it’s pretty clear what you ARE looking for. Someone that will just play with you. You say you don’t like games. It sounds to me like you don’t like games you can’t win. My Dad, as goofy as he is, told me one time to be careful with men. He said women are out to fall in love and he said that men are out for a piece of ass and if they fall in love in the meantime that’s just what happened. But they’re not looking for love. You fit that description to a tee. I think that stinks, because I think you’re better than that. Just remember, these women are someones sister, daughter, mother, whatever. You should change the way you think. If you want regular sex, then get married like you’re supposed to. I don’t care if you get mad at this or not, but I think you use your wife as an excuse not to make a commitment to someone else. You’ve anchored yourself to your past so much you can’t have a NEW life. You need to quit being such a baby. Do you think you’re the only person that ever lost anyone? Pick up the paper. It happens everyday. Get into the present and start living. Why waste your time looking back? Nothing will ever change what happened. Quit looking for ghosts or spirits or any of that other crap. It’s foolishness. You told me once, look around, what you’re looking for could be right in front of you. Well dearie, listen to yourself. You’ve wasted too much time already.
October 22, 2006 at 11:48 pm
lovesamerica:
You had two slices of pizza on a Saturday night out with your friends. You went home and hit the treadmill and burned 500 cal. How can that disappoint me? You are 23 years old and entitled to have a good time once in a while.
If you don’t treat yourself once in a while ,the diet will not be successful. Just make sure that you go back to it the next day and do the treadmill.
It is all a state of mind and self control.
Keep up the good work!
October 22, 2006 at 11:59 pm
(Yawn!) Whazzup, folks? Woo! What a night! Just kidding! I was up by 8:00 AM out doing the lawn and helping out with laundry. Thank you, Yes, I did have a nice birthday and, Yes, I do keep Paula in stitches. We make each other laugh and that’s what makes our relationship special to me.
Z: It appears Amelia took off the kid gloves and said things I might have said if I felt I knew you a tad bit better. I’ve been insinuating that you’re possibly hiding behind your sorrow to avoid entering another serious relationship. If so, OK, but don’t let the experience with Amy jade you. Get up, dust off, and get back on the horse. Don’t lock away your heart because of what was. Amelia was right; live in the here and now. However, I think it’s OK to delve into the spirit world and seek guidance from your tribal elders and/or Caroline. I’m not Native American, but I do feel that there are things that modern day religion just can’t explain (other than being of Satan) that can be helpful to us. Just about anything that is “other than from God” is viewed as evil. Why? Look at the Buddists, Shintos, Aborigines, etc. They have their own deity (or deities), different versions of mysticisms/miracles, and have done a fine job of living for centuries. I see nothing wrong with being open to other possibilites. Just don’t fall into the trap of extremism.
OK, I’ll do something weird, here. How ’bout Pres “Ah-mah-nut-job’s” latest rant about Israel? There are times I don’t know whether or not to give him any credence. Not long after I lapse into a time that I don’t, I listen to a tape of some extremist cleric somewhere in the middle-east and the hackles rise up again. Man! What a balancing act, eh, “Z?” Trying to raise a family in the times we live in and keep half an eye on what’s going on around us. Boy, I picked a fine week to stop sniffing glue!!!
October 23, 2006 at 12:03 am
lovesamerica–
Right on about what you said. I agree with you 100%. Absolutely.
Zach–
I do have to disagree with Big Jake here about trying to contact people who have nmoved on. They have moved on and will not contact you; these “contacts” are demons trying to get a foothold in your life and will use every opportunity or human weakness that they can. I know for a PERSONAL fact. I will not comment further on that. When people move on, whether to be with God or hell, they are beyond your reach. If they are with God, they understand much of what He does, are completely happy, and simply know and trust all things work to God’s agenda. Caroline does not need to contact you, and because time is not relative there in Heaven, could potentially feel like minutes to her whereas 50 years may pass here for you.
It is time to live, my friend. In the present and for the future. The past is just that; the past.
DJ–
Happy birthday, good fellow! I wish I could walk the streets of Mexico right now as it is getting colder here than what I like. Just give me a week without the kids in a warm, tropical environment and I would be in euphoria! I am glad you and your wife had such a fantastic time. Many years to you, man.
October 23, 2006 at 12:14 am
DJ – A bit belated, but Happy Birthday! Hope you had an awesome day!
Red Dawn, thanks, I’ll get on the other site soon. I’m swamped right now but I will need some companionship. My friend has not passed away yet, and each night I find myself awake at 2:30am praying through tears that there will be a miracle. It’s hard for my husband to talk to me about it because it could easily be us in their shoes. I think it’s hard for guys to talk about. I am older than you … by a decade but that’s okay.
Lovesamerica – GREAT JOB!!! Keep it up and I’m pulling for you. People will start to notice soon and their feedback will provide more motivation for you!
Zach, I am so torn for you. I don’t think Amy is the woman for you. I have a temper but a long fuse and I can easily get jealous over women who openly flirt with my guy (and they do!). However, I usually regret when that fuse ends and the temper blows, but somehow it doesn’t stop it from happening the next time. I continually try to work on this although to little avail. I have a religious friend. I’m a pretty conserveative woman, but socially, I’ve always been of the opinion that what people do in their lives is their business (unless using or peddling drugs and then I’m a total hardXXX.) My friend was treated terribly by this stranger and she said, “I’ll pray for him.” I told her, “I’ll pray for him, but it will be for a good butt-kicking!” She got so mad at me for that. I think it has to be a military/social service attitude thing. Too many of us know that bullies are not brought down through prayer and the way I look at it is that those of us in these roles we serve in life (like you and your fire/police brethern) are put here on Earth to be the reality check/gate check for humanity. BJ recommended what sounds like a fine book. If I could recommend “Hello From Heaven” as well. It really helped me deal with my anger in losing my brother. It’s an easy read. Caroline loves you. It’s so apparent. If she could have worked a miracle that day, she would have. I’ve not walked in your shoes. I do think you need to let her guide you. I believe she will. I say this because my sister-in-law almost punched out someone who said “when you remarry” after my brother died. They were soul mates. Out of the clear blue and probably not under the most chaste of circumstances, in walks this awesome guy and she doesn’t see it. He is my brother! I can see it so clearly but she can’t. They’re married and she’s still so upset about my brother. I told her, “Gail, you have got to stop this. Don’t you see that Randy brought this man to you? He is a carbon copy in so many ways! Wake up and love this man!” I’m not sure the message is sinking in. Just keep your eyes open, Zach. You have good common sense and that will help. I’ve got lots of relatives (good people) in Lawton/Duncan, Oklahoma. If you need a place to stay to do your searching, get on the other site. I can set something up for you. My Native American heritage is Cherokee, two generations removed but I think I’ve been served well by it. There’s a sense of danger that I’ve listened to several times in my life and I can point to twice when I was saved by it. I believe wholeheartedly in angels. I’ve decided I want to be one. I’m not at the point where I can share why I feel this way on open forum, but I say Believe – they are with us!
October 23, 2006 at 4:57 am
red dawn
Let me clear something up:
I did not advocate trying to contact people who have moved on. Nor did I advocate an attempt
to contact them through the use of a medium or through divination or through witchcraft. The Bible speaks very plainly that this is forbidden.
What I did advocate is the belief that our beloved dead advocate for us, pray for us ,
encourage us, and rejoice when we do God’s will on earth.
The Communion of Saints
There Are Saints and There Are Saints
The teaching of the Catholic Church is that our departed brothers and sisters in Christ reign in heaven with God, who is a God of the living (cf. Matthew 22:32), and therefore enjoy an especially close relationship with him. This does not deny that Christians still combating their way through the trials of this world are saints (from the Latin for holy, sanctus), because we are children of God even now. But in the new life, we will be like God:
Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3)
In heaven, we will reach the fullness of the image of God.
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. (1 Cor 13)
The saints are to God like stained glass is to sunlight. Light from the sun is white, but when passed through a prism or colored glass, it’s constitution becomes evident: the many colors that combine to form its radiance dance varied hues and textures to reveal the hidden perfections of the original light beam. So it is with the saints. Their lives and their faith show the perfections of God’s holiness shining through our human weakness. By contemplating and honoring their goodness, we come better to know and revere the overawing holiness of God.
1 Samuel
Chapter 28
1
In those days the Philistines mustered their military forces to fight against Israel. So Achish said to David, “You realize, of course, that you and your men must go out on campaign with me to Jezreel.”
2
David answered Achish, “Good! Now you shall learn what your servant can do.” Then Achish said to David, “I shall appoint you my permanent bodyguard.”
3
Now Samuel had died and, after being mourned by all Israel, was buried in his city, Ramah. Meanwhile Saul had driven mediums and fortune-tellers out of the land.
4
The Philistine levies advanced to Shunem and encamped. Saul, too, mustered all Israel; they camped on Gilboa.
5
When Saul saw the camp of the Philistines, he was dismayed and lost heart completely.
6
He therefore consulted the LORD; but the LORD gave no answer, whether in dreams or by the Urim or through prophets.
7
Then Saul said to his servants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, to whom I can go to seek counsel through her.” His servants answered him, “There is a woman in Endor who is a medium.”
8
So he disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and set out with two companions. They came to the woman by night, and Saul said to her, “Tell my fortune through a ghost; conjure up for me the one I ask you to.”
9
But the woman answered him, “You are surely aware of what Saul has done, in driving the mediums and fortune-tellers out of the land. Why, then, are you laying snares for my life, to have me killed?”
10
But Saul swore to her by the LORD, “As the LORD lives, you shall incur no blame for this.”
11
Then the woman asked him, “Whom do you want me to conjure up?” and he answered, “Samuel.”
12
1 When the woman saw Samuel, she shrieked at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
13
But the king said to her, “Have no fear. What do you see?” The woman answered Saul, “I see a preternatural being rising from the earth.”
14
“What does he look like?” asked Saul. And she replied, “It is an old man who is rising, clothed in a mantle.” Saul knew that it was Samuel, and so he bowed face to the ground in homage.
15
Samuel then said to Saul, “Why do you disturb me by conjuring me up?” Saul replied: “I am in great straits, for the Philistines are waging war against me and God has abandoned me. Since he no longer answers me through prophets or in dreams, I have called you to tell me what I should do.”
16
To this Samuel said: “But why do you ask me, if the LORD has abandoned you and is with your neighbor?
17
The LORD has done to you what he foretold through me: he has torn the kingdom from your grasp and has given it to your neighbor David.
18
“Because you disobeyed the LORD’S directive and would not carry out his fierce anger against Amalek, the LORD has done this to you today.
19
Moreover, the LORD will deliver Israel, and you as well, into the clutches of the Philistines. By tomorrow you and your sons will be with me, and the LORD will have delivered the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”
20
Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, for he was badly shaken by Samuel’s message. Moreover, he had no bodily strength left, since he had eaten nothing all that day and night.
21
Then the woman came to Saul, and seeing that he was quite terror-stricken, said to him: “Remember, your maidservant obeyed you: I took my life in my hands and fulfilled the request you made of me.
22
Now you, in turn, please listen to your maidservant. Let me set something before you to eat, so that you may have strength when you go on your way.”
23
But he refused, saying, “I will not eat.” However, when his servants joined the woman in urging him, he listened to their entreaties, got up from the ground, and sat on a couch.
24
The woman had a stall-fed calf in the house, which she now quickly slaughtered. Then taking flour, she kneaded it and baked unleavened bread.
25
She set the meal before Saul and his servants, and they ate. Then they stood up and left the same night.
Footnotes
1 Human beings cannot communicate at will with the souls of the dead. God may, however, permit a departed soul to appear to the living and even to disclose things unknown to them. Saul’s own prohibition of necromancy and divination (1 Sam 28:3) was in keeping with the consistent teaching of the Old Testament. If we are to credit the reality of the apparition to Saul, it was due, not to the summons of the witch, but to God’s will; the woman merely furnished the occasion.
New American Bible Copyright © 1991, 1986, 1970 Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, Inc., Washington, DC. All rights reserved. Neither this work nor any part of it may be reproduced, distributed, performed or displayed in any medium, including electronic or digital, without permission in writing from the copyright owner.
What is the spiritual perspective on contacting my departed relatives through a medium or an Ouija board?
The following are the reasons why it is detrimental:
Most mediums do not have the high level sixth sense ability (ESP) nor the spiritual level to discern the true identity of the spirit they are speaking to. In almost all cases, instead of our ancestors or our loved ones coming through, it is a ghost who tries to communicate with us. These ghosts can have our departed ancestors under their control, sometimes extracting personal information from them to fool us into thinking that we are indeed talking to our ancestors. This happens even if the ancestors do not want to give information to the ghosts. Ghosts also have the ability to invade the mind of the ancestor and extract information from it. Sometimes the ghosts purposely let the ancestors come through but force them to give wrong information to their descendents thus leading the surviving relatives astray.
In almost all cases, mediums who are at lower spiritual levels are possessed by ghosts without having the slightest inkling. Also most mediums do this for money and/or fame. Ghosts use this desire in the medium to enhance their control over them. To exert a wider and deeper influence, they sometimes enhance the ability of the medium. The medium interprets this improved ability as a sign of their personal progress, but this is far from the truth. Finally the ghost misleads people through the medium.
On the other hand mediums who have a higher spiritual strength generally have a few ghosts under their control. They use these ghosts to get information about the people coming to them and who are in need of contacting their departed loved ones.
Sometimes we hear about ghost whisperers helping our ancestors to cross over. A ghost whisperer is another word for a medium who can communicate with the spirits of the dead. Unless a ghost whisperer is above the 70% spiritual level, i.e. at Sainthood level, it is near impossible to help any subtle body cross over to the higher positive regions from an Earthbound existence.
Trying to contact departed relatives only increases their feeling of attachment for us and vice versa. The departed ancestors can perceive the pain and mourning of their surviving relatives and are drawn back to the earthly plane. This creates obstacles in the subtle body’s ability to move on and progress in the afterlife.
Only a person, who is a Saint (i.e. above the spiritual level of 70%), can actually decipher information accurately from the spiritual realm about ones departed ancestors. They are able to discern whether contact is being made with the concerned ancestor or if a ghost is masquerading as an ancestor. At present, there are less than 10,000 of these evolved people living on Earth and they generally never indulge in helping people talk to their dead relatives.
In the case of an Ouija board there is only a 10% chance of getting in touch with one’s departed ancestors. However the flip side is that there is also a 90% chance of getting a ghost coming through masquerading as an ancestor. What is more damaging is that the ghost can use the medium of the Ouija board itself to possess the person involved.
Losing a loved one can be a traumatic experience and one may have the desire to contact them to see if they are okay. However the best service we can be off for our departed relatives is to make every effort to let them go. This is so that they can continue with their onward journey in the afterlife. The best way to honour them and show our love for them is to let them go. Communicating with the dead has absolutely no spiritual value and will only create a loss to both the ancestor and to the descendent. Channel the sorrow of losing a loved one in doing spiritual practice and chanting the spiritual protection chant of Sree Gurudev Datta. This will help alleviate pain that you feel and also really help them in the afterlife.
DREAMING WITH THE DEPARTED
By Robert Moss
Many of us yearn for contact with departed loved ones. We miss them; we ache for forgiveness or closure; we yearn for confirmation that there is life beyond physical death. This is one of the main reasons why people go to psychic readers.
Here’s an open secret: we don’t need a go-between to talk to the departed. We can have direct communication with our departed, in timely and helpful ways, if we are willing to pay attention to our dreams.
We meet our departed loved ones in our dreams. Sometimes they come to offer us guidance or assurance of life beyond death; sometimes they need help from us because they are lost or confused, or need forgiveness and closure. Dreams of the departed help us gain first-hand knowledge of what happens after physical death.
One of the cruelest things that mainstream Western culture has done is to suggest that communication with the departed is either impossible or unnatural. There is nothing spooky or “supernatural” involved, though these experiences take us into realms beyond physical reality.
The intimate connection between dreams and the departed is embedded in our language. The English word “dream” and the German word “Traum” are both related to the Old Germanic word draugr, which means a visitation from the departed.
The easiest way for the departed to communicate with the living is through dreams -though sometimes the departed, as well as the living, fail to realize this. For once, Hollywood got this right. In the movie The Sixth Sense a psychically gifted young boy can see and speak with the departed. He plays counselor to a man who has died, is initially confused about his situation, and then dismayed that he cannot talk to his wife. The boy instructs the dead man, “Speak to her in her dreams, only then will she hear you”.
In most dreams, the departed appear to be living, and very often the dreamer is unaware that the person he or she encounters is “dead” until after waking. The reason is that the departed are indeed alive, though no longer in the physical realm.
The departed may appear as the dreamer remembers them from their last days of physical life, especially in the first dream encounters. But over time, it is quite common for the departed to alter their appearance, to shrug off signs of age and bodily ailments, and to present themselves as healthy and attractive. People who died in later years frequently reappear looking around 30 years old.
After my father’s death in 1987, he appeared repeatedly in my dreams to offer counsel to the family, bringing specific and practical information to which I did not have access in waking life. For example, he gave me the name of the realtor on the other side of the Pacific – someone otherwise unknown to me – who moved with great speed and humanity (once we contacted him because of the dream) to help my mother sell her home and resettle in a community where she spent some of the happiest years of her life. My father also made a happy dream visit to one of my daughters, who bitterly regretted never having known him in physical life; he showed himself as a handsome horseman, about 30 years old, and took her riding. Through many dream encounters with my father, I was vividly reminded that a departed loved one can truly play “family angel”.
After his death, my favorite professor from my undergraduate days in Australia began to appear in my dreams as a different kind of history teacher, instructing me that each of us belongs to a family of personalities in different times and dimensions whose dramas are being played out now.
. I have been dreaming of departed people all my life, and have worked with thousands of dreams of the departed shared with me by others. While the departed person in some of these dreams may be an aspect of the dreamer’s own personality or genetic inheritance – or a mask for a messenger from the deeper Self – the great majority of these dreams appear to involve transpersonal encounters.
I have observed that there are three main ways in which the departed interact with us in dreams:
We discover that the departed are still around.
“The dimension that separates the living from the dead is exactly as wide as the edge of a maple leaf,” said Handsome Lake, the Seneca Indian prophet.
Quite frequently dreams reveal that the departed are present because, quite simply, they never left. A California woman dreamed she entered her living room and found her departed boyfriend on the sofa watching, TV. Surprised, she asked what he was doing there. He responded, “I’m just watching TV”. He did not seem to be aware that he had died.
The departed may linger because they have unfinished business, or wish to act as guide and protector to the family, or are attached to people and places they loved in waking life, and this may be a perfectly happy situation for a year or two.
But there comes a time when our departed need to move on, for their own growth, and so they do not become a psychic burden to the living.
Because our society does a poor job in preparing people for the afterlife, many people who have passed on do not know they are dead, and hover in a limbo close to familiar people and places on this Earth. After death, we continue to be driven by our ruling interests, appetites and addictions. Some of those who have died but not truly “passed on” continue to try to feed their cravings via the living. You don’t need to be especially psychic to notice that in a certain kind of bar, “dead” barflies outnumber the living ones.
When the departed remain earthbound, the effects are unhealthy both for those who have died and those among the living to whom they are connected. When the dead are enmeshed with the living, the result is mutual confusion, loss of energy, and the transfer of addictions, obsessions and even physical ailments from the departed to the person whose energy field he or she is sharing.
Helping the departed may involve a loving dialogue, a simple ritual of honoring and farewell, and invoking spiritual helpers. As we become active dreamers, familiar with the geography of the afterlife, we may find we are called on to provide personal escort services and help to instruct some of our departed on their options on the other side. William Butler Yeats noted quite accurately that “the living can assist the imaginations of the dead”.
2. The departed pay us a visit
Most people who remember dreams can recall one in which someone on the other side made a phone call, sent a letter, or simply turned up at the door or the bedside. Our departed return to us in dreams for all the reasons they might have called on us in physical life – including the simple desire to tell us how they are doing and see how we are coping – and for larger reasons: to bring emotional healing, to bring us helpful information, to instruct us on life beyond death and the reality of worlds beyond the physical.
Our departed may come visiting to offer or receive forgiveness. They may come to show us how they are doing on the other side.
Our departed can be excellent psychic advisers when they achieve clarity on the other side and are aware that they are not confined to the rules of space and time.
Our departed may come as health advisors and family counselors. My friend Wanda Burch had received many dreams containing possible health advisories, but was finally driven to seek medical attention when her deceased father turned up in her dreams in a doctor’s white coat and yelled at her, “You have breast cancer!” Her father’s dream intervention helped put her on the path of healing and recovery beautifully described in her book She Who Dreams.
Our departed may visit us in dreams to help us prepare for our own deaths and reassure us that we have friends on the other side.
3. In dreams, we travel to realms of the departed
In our dreams, we are released from the laws of physical reality, and travel into other dimensions, including environments where the departed may be living. Through dreams of this kind, we can begin to develop a personal geography of the afterlife, which will be vastly enriched when we learn the art of conscious dream travel, which is at the heart of my own teaching and practice.
In my workshops, I often invite participants to focus on a dream or memory of a departed person and make it their intention to journey – with the help of shamanic drumming – to seek timely and helpful communication with that person and to learn about the environment where that person is now living. From these journeys, we have collected multifarious and fascinating details of reception centers, transition zones, places of recovery and further education and communications arrangements on the other side. We have learned that more than one vehicle of soul survives physical death, and each has a different destiny. We have explored many afterlife locales shaped by human imaginations and collective belief systems.
There is a long pedigree for experiences of visionary travel of this kind. Across ages and cultures, most human societies have prized informed knowledge about the afterlife, and the travel maps that have come down to us in scripture and literature are most often the product of dreams and visionary experience.
I don’t think it is possible to overstate the importance of developing first-hand knowledge of the afterlife. If we know, as a matter of direct experience, that there is life beyond death, we are likely to approach the choices and challenges of our regular lives.
with greater clarity and courage. If we are aware of the conditions of the afterlife, we are less likely to become stuck or confused when we leave our bodies behind.
If we are going on a journey, it is useful to have a map. In preparing for death, many cultures have attributed huge importance to receiving accurate maps for the soul’s journey, with directions on how to deal with gatekeepers and challenges along the way. The trouble with old maps is that they may be hopelessly out of date or – worse – may deliver you into a stale collective situation where you do not really want to be. So where do we get an up-to-date map? Through dreaming, and conscious dream travel.
The Lakota say that the path of the soul in dreams is the same as the path of souls after death. I believe this is exactly right. Our dreams will show us, and our departed loved ones, the way.
Further reading: Robert Moss, Conscious Dreaming, chapter 7; Dreamgates Part III.; The Way of the Dreamer (video) tape 5, “Dreaming with the Departed”.
[12/30/03]
Of Special Interest
The Dreamer’s Book of the Dead
by Robert Moss
© 2003 Robert Moss. All rights reserved
October 23, 2006 at 5:01 am
DJ-
A big belated Happy Birthday to you!
October 24, 2006 at 1:01 am
lovesamerica- Hmmmm. I don’t really know how to respond to you other than to say I’m really not that much of a dirtbag. I’m not on the prowl everynight and I don’t bring home strangers. I do get lonely, and I enjoy female companionship. I am leary about making a commitment and it isn’t just because of Caroline. I work with a lot of men that have gone through divorces and remarried. They not only took a financial beating when they divorced, but the kids from the first marriage are rarely accepted by the new wife. Some have gotten lucky the second time, but most haven’t. The new wife resents having to pay support to the former wife, and she also resents including the time the former kids spend with them. I’ve seen a lot and heard a lot. Granted, I don’t have an ex wife so to speak, but I do have a son. I also have a nice home and I could take real good care of a wife. She wouldn’t have to work if she didn’t want to. My sister has always referred to me as the town’s most sought after man. I’ve got a lot to risk. I don’t want to lose everything I have. My son will always be my first priority until he’s old enough to take care of himself. I wouldn’t want to make the wrong choice in a woman, and then have him suffer through it. I would never tolerate anyone mistreating him. I have my son with me where ever I go most of the time. We’re buds. He was small when I built my fireplace, but there’s a couple of stones in there that he put in, and he thinks he helped build it. He was right beside me when I built the deck also. He would hand me nails, hand me boards, and I let him nail several down so we could say we built it together. Josh is usually in bed by 9:00-9:30 everynight, and there I sit in my living room all by myself watching TV or getting on the computer or reading. Sure, I would love to have a loving wife to give me a backrub or share the time with me even if we weren’t talking. It gets very lonely sometimes. But, I deal with it. Amy and I started having problems right after the first weekend I wanted to be with just my son. She resented it. I hadn’t been alone with Josh, just him and me in weeks, and I missed it. I didn’t want him to think he wasn’t as important any more. We needed that time. Amy is needy. She wanted me there all the time. She just wasn’t right for me. So, Amelia, or Amy, or whatever you want to be called, don’t be so hard on me and judge me. I’m not asking for sympathy, but it has been rough. I’m content with the way things are right now. I’m not as happy as I could be but I am content. When the time is right, I hope I will find the right person. Also, please don’t attack Jake and I for talking about things no matter how weird they may seem to you. I connected with Jake almost immediately when I first got on here and he’s helped me a lot. You may not agree with some of things that are talked about, and that’s fine, but don’t put us down just because he’s open and willing to share what he’s learned with me. He understands me better than most of my friends. And for some reason, I DO think he and I were put into this mix for a reason. The last thing he posted about the dreams, that was comforting for me to read that. I think you were hard on Red Dawn, too. So she knows she’s hot. So she’s not afraid to say so. So what?? Why do you care? I know I’m hot, too. I really am. (hahaha) Don’t worry about stuff like that. That’s what’s foolishness. So, green eyes, keep up the good work on your diet. I ‘ve never been on a pedestal before, so I’d like to climb back up on it if I can.
October 24, 2006 at 2:26 am
Yeah, Zach. Being on a pedestal is fine until Rozanne Rozannadanna comes by, looks up, and says, “Hey! You got a really gross big green thingie in your nose! Do sumtin about it, will ya? Ah’m about to toss mah cookies!”
Your “Plan A” to raise Josh, then look for a companion is an OK idea. Just remember that how he sees you relate to women is how he will when he gets older. I agree that the track record of your friends and associates speaks volumes. Like the gals say about men, “They’re like parking spaces. The good ones are taken and the rest are waaaaay out there or handicapped.” I believe you’ve got the patience and intelligence to know who’s the right one. The gals might have to kiss a lot of frogs to find their prince, but we’ve got to slay a lot of dragons, climb many towers, and outsmart many sphinxes before we can hang up the armor. “Twas brillig in the frothy toves…”
October 24, 2006 at 1:37 pm
Zach, LOL!
lovesamerica– I guess he has a point. I wouldn’t want to sit at home by myself all the time, either. And I would certainly feel the same way about my girls! If I found myself single with two girls, I would be quite leery about dating because of all the reasons Zach mentioned. Especially with having two little girls. I would also worry that if I met a person with children and (we really liked each other) how he would treat my children in relation to his own. I’ve seen how difficult this can be with some of my divorced friends. I also grew up in a home like this and it was quite dysfunctional. Though I can understand the reasons why, my mother remarried a man for “security”; but he could not relate to children to save his life. He had a short fuse and was a believer in “children should be seen and not heard”. He was also an overly strict diciplinarian He’s mellowed out since then and I truly do love him now, but I really hated him growing up.
Americanwoman–
Anytime you want to talk, I’m available. And I’m sorry, I wasn’t telling you my age to find out yours! You had mentioned horses in an earlier post and also mentioned living in GA and for some reason I thought you and I might have ridden or shown in the same circles at the same time. I brained out there; too many glasses of wine that night, maybe?
Big Jake– I just do not believe in contact with, in any form or fashion, anyone who has passed on. I do not believe they can contact you. I do not believe in ghosts. As for the ghost phenomenon (sp?), (good Halloween theme!), I believe ghosts are either demons impersonating departed people and/or “bleed through” images from past/future. All dimensions operate simultaneously and this theory makes sense.
Americanwoman– Angels are real and do help us. There is an angelic hierarchy with Michael at the top. I believe he is the “restrainer” mentioned in the Bible that is preventing the Anti-Christ from emerging on the scene until it is time. Angels, however, are not human. They are completely different creatures and were created to serve God. Man was created to KNOW God in an intimate way. You cannot become an angel when you die; you do become “superhuman” with a body that cannot be destroyed (if a believer)in Jesus Christ, you become a saint. All believers in Christ are saints, including those of us still living on earth.
DJ–
You have the soul of a poet! I hope you share this gift with your wife when you are showering her with praises for her most “beauteous self.” 🙂
October 24, 2006 at 1:51 pm
Big Jake–Yes, God can allow departed spirits to speak to the living, but we’re specifically forbidden to try and contact them. Saul was allowed to contact Samuel, but he was still committing a sin by doing it.
The reason we are forbidden is because we do not know what we are truly contacting; we also open a “doorway” for demons to have direct access to us. If you are doing the “opening”, anything can come through and attach itself to you.
October 24, 2006 at 4:12 pm
Zach, I’m sorry if I sounded off in such a cold way. I don’t know what it is about you, but there is definitely something about you that’s appealing to me even tho I don’t even know you and I just don’t want you to be a whoremonger “dirtbag”. You probably think I have a teeny bopper mentality. I can’t change that if you do. You’re so sweet and nice, with such a seductive vulnerable side. How could I not put you back on the pedestal? (Oh yeah, and thanks DJ…I really wanted to picture him with a boogar hanging out of his nose.) It would be dangerous for me to meet you because from your description and just the way you talk on here I’d probably crumble at your feet. And I’m not a pig. May look like one, but I’m not one. JUST KIDDING. I was acutally asked by the company I work for if I would consider letting them take my picture (face only) and use it in an advertisement. I thought that was pretty flattering. Anyway, you’re still a cool guy by me. Lets kiss and make up!!!!
Big Jake an DJ, you two are so special to me and I love you both. BJ-I had one of those red potatoes last night. You said you don’t need butter…I beg to differ…I MISSED the butter.
Red Dawn, sorry if I was a little hard on you. I don’t like people that praise themselves and maybe I read more into your posts than I should’ve. I suppose when I lose the weight I want and get my confidence back I’ll think I’m pretty sharp too. Some of the girls are suggesting to me that I cut my hair and something tells me that they just want me to do it because it’s too pretty. The men around here are always telling me they like my hair. They like to touch it. What is it with men and long hair anyway? I can actually sit on my hair. It’s really long and really thick. I have been thinking about cutting it and giving it to the cancer society to make wigs for kids. That’s the only reason I’ll cut it.
I’m afraid of ghosts and demons. I have my own apartment and sometimes I get scared at night. It’s a security building but I still don’t like being alone. I don’t want to think my grandfather or grandmother might show up and sit on my bed or something. I loved them dearly, but I’ll wait til I get to heaven to see them. I don’t have anything to say them that I didn’t already say when they were alive, and I don’t want them giving me any messages. I would rather live my life as it comes. I don’t like that stuff.
Love you all.
October 24, 2006 at 4:34 pm
Red Dawn :
I agree with you. That is what I said in my post #596. If you re-read the second and third part of the post ,you will see that any random contact initiated through a ouija board or a medium is dangerous and can open a doorway for demons. I again do not advocate an attempt
to contact them through the use of a medium or through divination or through witchcraft. The Bible speaks very plainly that this is forbidden.
I do believe that there is alot of evidence to suggest that not all departures from this life are by the express train to the “Pearly Gates”.
When the loved ones of the deceased are having a hard time accepting the death or if the death was traumatic and unexpected by the deceased as in the case of an accident, the deceased may not be ready for the transition to the next level.
I believe that God in His mercy and love allows intercession and contact by our beloved deceased as part of the soul’s transition.
In other words, God allows the soul of the deceased a chance to clear up any unfinished business .
If God is allowing the contact ,either through dreams, Angelic intercession ,there is no path to Demons.
By the way, that is also why I believe that Baptism is so important. Baptism marks the soul and claims it fpr Christ. If we are temples of thr Holy Spirit ,Demons can not dwell in us .
October 27, 2006 at 1:48 am Immortality or Resurection? Chapter IV THE BIBLICAL VIEW OF DEATH Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Andrews University Throughout human history, people have refused to accept the finality that death brings to life. Death brings an unacceptable, sudden interruption to one’s work, plans, and relationships. Though the inscription on many tomb stones often reads “Rest in Peace,” the truth of the matter is that most people do not welcome the peaceful rest of the grave. They would rather be alive and productive. Thus, it is not surprising that the subject of death and afterlife always has been a matter of intense concern and speculation. After all, the death rate is still one per person. Each of us at the appointed time will face the grim reality of death. Today we live in a death-denying culture. People live as if death did not exist. Doctors and hospital personnel generally think that death is something that should not happen. Regardless of how miserable people may feel, they usually respond to “How are you?” with an artificial smile, saying: “Just fine.” When we can no longer maintain the facade, we begin to wonder, “What is going to happen to me now?” Even at the end of life, we tend to deny the reality of death by embalming the dead and using cosmetics to restore the corpse to a natural, healthy look. We dress the dead in suits and gowns as if they were going to a party instead of returning to dust. A special mourning color that has been prevalent in most countries, such as white or black, is gradually disappearing, because people do not want to believe that death is an intrusion that terminates their life. In recent years, courses on death and dying have been introduced in many colleges and high schools. Some colleges and universities also offer courses on the occult and other phenomena such as near-death experiences which allegedly offer scientific evidence for life beyond death. All of these trends suggest there is a renewed interest today to unravel the mystery of death and to gain reassurance about some form of life after death. Objectives of This Chapter. This chapter pursues two major objectives. First, we briefly review the history of the belief in the survival of the soul, focusing especially on recent developments that have revived the notion of conscious existence after death. We shall see that spiritualism, the study of near-death experiences, and the channeling (promoted by the New Age Movement, especially through the influence of actress Shirley Maclaine) have all contributed to promoting the view that death is not the cessation of life, but a transition to a different form of existence. Second, we examine the Biblical understanding of the nature of death. Does the Bible teach that death is the separation of the immortal soul from the mortal body? Or, does the Bible teach that death is the termination of life for the whole person, body and soul? In other words, is death according to the Bible the cessation of life for the whole person or the transition to a new form of life for the immortal component of our being? To find answers to these questions, we will search the Scriptures examining all the pertinent passages. We have followed this procedure in the previous chapters when studying the Biblical view of human nature. Scripture must always be allowed to interpret the Scripture. Passages which pose some problems must be interpreted in the light of those that are clear. By following this principle known as the analogy of faith, we can resolve the apparent contradictions we find in the Bible. PART 1: A HISTORICAL GLIMPSE OF THE BELIEF IN THE SURVIVAL OF THE SOUL “You Will Not Die.” To set the stage for the study of the Biblical view of death in this chapter and of the state of the dead in the following chapter, it may be helpful to look briefly at the history of the belief in the survival of the soul after death. The serpent’s lie, “You will not die” (Gen 3:4) has lived on throughout human history to our time. The belief in some form of life after death has been held in practically every society. The need for reassurance and certainty in the light of the challenge that death poses to human life has led people in every culture to formulate beliefs in some form of afterlife. In the history of Christianity, death has been defined generally as the separation of the immortal soul from the mortal body. This belief in the survival of the soul at the death of the body has been expressed in various ways and given rise to such corollary doctrines as prayer for the dead, indulgences, purgatory, intercession of the saints, the eternal torment of hell, etc. Since the time of Augustine (A. D. 354-430), Christians have been taught that between death and resurrection—a period known as “the intermediate state”—the souls of the dead either enjoy the beatitude of Paradise or suffer the affliction of Purgatory or Hell. The disembodied condition of the soul is supposed to continue until the resurrection of the body which will bring completion to the salvation of the saints and to the damnation of the wicked. During the Middle Ages, the fear of death and speculation about what happens to the soul after death gripped the imagination of people and inspired literary and theological works. Dante’s Divina Commedia is only a small fragment of the immense literary and artistic works which graphically depict the torments of the sinners’ soul in Purgatory or Hell, and the blessedness of the saints’ soul in Paradise. The belief in the survival of the soul contributed to the development of the doctrine of Purgatory, a place where the souls of the dead are purified by suffering the temporal punishment of their sins before ascending to Paradise. This widely believed doctrine burdened the living with emotional and financial stress. As Ray Anderson puts it, “Not only did one have to earn enough to live, but also to pay off the ‘spiritual mortgage’ for the dead as well.”1 Reformers’ Rejection of Purgatory. The Protestant Reformation started largely as a reaction against the medieval superstitious beliefs about the afterlife in Purgatory. The Reformers rejected as unbiblical and unreasonable the practice of buying and selling indulgences to reduce the stay of the souls of departed relatives in Purgatory. However, they continued to believe in the conscious existence of souls either in Paradise or Hell during the intermediate state. Calvin expressed this belief far more aggressively than Luther.2 In his treatise Psychopannychia,3 which he wrote against the Anabaptists who taught that souls simply sleep between death and resurrection, Calvin argues that during the intermediate state the souls of the believers enjoy the bliss of heaven; those of the unbelievers suffer the torments of hell. At the resurrection, the body is reunited with the soul, thus intensifying the pleasure of paradise or the pain of hell. Since that time, this doctrine of the intermediate state has been accepted by most Protestant churches and is reflected in various Confessions.4 The Westminster Confession (1646), regarded as the definitive statement of Presbyterian beliefs in the English-speaking world, states: “The body of men after death return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls (which neither die nor sleep) having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received unto the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies: and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day.”5 The confession continues declaring as unbiblical the belief in purgatory. By rejecting as unbiblical the popular superstitions regarding the suffering of souls in purgatory, the Reformers paved the way for a reexamination of human nature by the rationalistic philosophers of the Enlightment. These philosophers did not immediately abandon the notion of the immortality of the soul. The first significant attack on the belief in the survival of life after death came from David Hume (A. D. 1711-1776), an English philosopher and historian. He questioned the immortality of the soul, because he believed that all knowledge comes from the sensory perceptions of the body.6 Since the death of the body marks the end of all sensory perception, it is impossible for the soul to have conscious existence after the death of the body. The decline in the belief in an afterlife reached its climax by the mid-eighteenth century as atheism, skepticism, and rationalism spread in France, England, and America. The publication of Darwin’s Origin of Species (1859) inflicted another blow on supernaturalism and especially on the immortality of the soul. If human life is the product of spontaneous generation, then human beings have no divine spirit or immortal soul in them. Darwin’s theories challenged people to seek “scientific” evidence for supernatural phenomena, such as the survival of the soul. Spiritualism and the Revival of Interest in the Soul. Public interest in the life of the soul after death was soon revived with the publication of The Coming Race (1860) by Bulmer-Lytton. This book influenced a host of writers who contributed to making occult practices fashionable in British society. In America, the public interest in communicating with the souls of the dead was ignited by the séances held by the Fox sisters who lived in Hydesdale, New York. On March 31, 1848, they conducted a séance in which the alleged spirit of a murdered man, who called himself William Duesler, informed them that if they dug in the basement, they would find his corpse. This proved to be true; a body was found. Since the spirits of the dead at the Fox house communicated by a rapping sound on the table, “table rapping” séances became fashionable all across America and England as a way of communicating with the spirit of the dead. This phenomenon attracted the attention of numerous learned persons, who in 1882 organized the Society for Psychical Research (SPR). Henry Sedgwich, a noted philosopher at Cambridge, became instrumental in gathering into the society some of the most influential people of the day, including William Gladstone (former British prime minister) and Arthur Balfour (future prime minister). An important outcome of the SPR movement is represented by the work of Joseph Banks Rhine, who in 1930 began researching conscious life after death. Rhine was trained as a biologist at the University of Chicago and later became involved with the SPR while teaching at Harvard University. He redefined and relabeled the subjects that the SPR had researched for years by coining such terms as “extrasensory perception” (ESP), “para-normal psychology,” or “parapsychology.” This was designed to give scientific credibility to the study of the afterlife. Later Rhine, together with William McDougal who served as president for both the British and American SPR groups, set up a Department for Psychic Studies at Duke University. The Russians conducted their own psychic experiments. Their findings were published in a popularized form in Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain by Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder (1970). In the late 1960s, the late Episcopal bishop James A. Pike gave new and widespread attention to the idea of communicating with the spirits of the dead by communicating on a regular basis with his deceased son. Today our society is flooded with mediums and psychics who advertise their services nationwide through TV, magazines, radio, and newspapers. In their book At the Hour of Death, K. Osis and E. Haraldson write: “Spontaneous experiences of contact with the dead are surprisingly widespread. In a national opinion poll . . . 27 per cent of the American population said they had encounters with dead relatives, . . . widows and widowers . . . reported encounters with their dead spouses twice as often–51 per cent.”7 Communication with the spirits of the dead is not just an American phenomenon. Surveys conducted in other countries reveal a similar high percentage of people who engage the services of mediums to communicate with the spirit of their deceased loved ones.8 In their book Immortality or Extinction? Paul and Linda Badham, both professors at St. David University in Wales, devote a chapter to “The Evidence from Psychical Research” to support their belief in conscious life after death. They wrote: “Some people believe that direct contact with the dead can be achieved through mediums who allegedly have the ability, while in a state of trance, to transmit messages between the dead and the living. Belief in the reality of such communications is the lifeblood of the Spiritualist Churches, and mourners who consult mediums are often impressed by the convincing descriptions of departed loved-ones which the mediums give. On occasion a medium may also show knowledge of the deceased’s former life.”9 The Badhams acknowledge that in many cases mediums are charlatans who base their communications on “acute observation and intelligent guesswork.”10 Yet, they believe that there is “genuine evidence for the human personality’s survival of bodily death.”11 They support their belief by reporting the cases of several members of the Society for Psychical Research (SPR), who after their death began sending messages to living members of the SPR to prove that they had survived death.12 It is not our intent to dispute the ability of some mediums to receive and transmit messages from spirits. The question is whether such messages are from the spirits of the dead or from the spirits of Satan. We address this question later in this chapter, in conjunction with our study of King Saul’s consultation of the medium of Endor (1 Sam 28:7-25). At this juncture, it suffices to note that spiritualism still plays a major role today in fostering the belief in the survival of the soul after death. People who through mediums have been able to communicate with the alleged spirits of their deceased loved ones have reason to believe in the immortality of the soul. Near-Death Experiences. Another significant development of our time, which has contributed to promote belief in the survival of the soul, is the study of “near-death experiences.” Such studies are based on reports from people who have been resuscitated from a close encounter with death, and from doctors and nurses who have recorded the deathbed experiences of some of their patients. The experiences reported by persons who have had a close encounter with death often parallel what many believe to be the life of the soul in Paradise. Though no two reports are the same, some of the common characteristics are: the impression of peacefulness, the sensation of being pulled very rapidly through a dark space of some kind, floating in a weightless, spiritual body, the awareness of being in the presence of a spiritual being, an encounter with a bright light, often identified with Jesus Christ or an angel, and a vision of a city of light.13 Such experiences are interpreted as proof that at death the soul leaves the body and lives in a disembodied condition. Reports of near-death experiences are not new. They can be found in Classical literature, such as the History of the English Church and People by the Venerable Bede, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, Primitive Culture by Sir Edward Burnett Tylor, and the Republic by Plato.14 In the Republic, Plato gives a remarkable account of a near-death experience, which he uses to substantiate the belief in the immortality of the soul. He wrote: “Er, the son of Armenius, by race a Pamphylian. He once upon a time was slain in battle, and when the corpses were taken up on the tenth day already decayed, was found intact, and having been brought home, at the moment of his funeral, on the twelth day as he lay upon the pyre, revived, and after coming to life related what, he said, he had seen in the world beyond. He said that when his soul went forth from his body he journeyed with a great company and that they came to a mysterious region where there were two openings side by side in the earth, and above and over against them in the heaven two others, and that judges were sitting between these, and that after every judgment they bade the righteous journey to the right and upward through the heaven with tokens attached to them in front of the judgment passed upon them, and the unjust to take the road to the left and downward, they too wearing behind signs of all that had befalled them, and that when he himself drew near they told him that he must be the messenger to mankind to tell them of that other world, and they charged him to give ear and to observe everything in the place. . . . Yet how and in what way he returned to the body he said he did not know, but suddenly recovering his sight he saw himself at dawn lying on the funeral pyre.”15 Plato concludes his story with this revealing comment: “So the tale was saved. . . . And it will save us if we believe it . . . that the soul is immortal and capable of enduring all the extremes of good and evil.”16 One wonders what kind of salvation the belief in the immortality of the soul can offer to a person. Survival as a disembodied soul or spirit in an ethereal world hardly compares with the Biblical hope of the resurrection of the whole person to a real life on this planet earth renewed to its original perfection. To this question we return in the final chapter which examines the Biblical vision of the world to come. Studies of Near-Death Experiences. In our time, the study of near-death experiences was largely pioneered by American psychiatrist Raymond A. Moody. His two seminal books, Life after Life (1975) and Reflections on Life after Life (1977) have generated a multitude of books, articles, and debates that address out-of-body experiences.17 “More recently, a bibliography of books and articles relevant to near-death experiences has been published, listing two and a half thousand titles.”18 Moody studied 150 persons who had near-death experiences and, in some cases, who clinically were dead. The question is how the data should be interpreted. Moody’s publisher asserts that the reports are “actual case histories that reveal there is life after death.”19 Moody himself, however, is far more cautious. He explicitly denies that he tried “to construct a proof of survival of bodily death,” even though he regards the data as “highly significant” for such a belief.20 He leaves open the possibility of conceiving of near-death experiences as intimations of immortality or merely as the result of terminal physiological events. It is not our intent to examine the alleged probative value of near-death experiences for the belief in the survival of the soul. Our normative authority for defining human nature is not the subjective near-death experiences of people, but the objective revelation God has provided us in His Word (2 Pet 1:19). Thus, only three basic observations about near-death experiences are considered here. First, there is the problem of defining death. The Editor of Lancet, a journal dedicated to medical research, points out that “only a deliberate use of obsolete definitions of death can enable one to claim that anybody has, under clinical conditions, returned to tell us what lies beyond death, for by working definition, periodically updated, death is just beyond the point from which anybody can return to tell us anything.”21 Similarly, Professor Paul Kurts comments, “We have no hard evidence that the subjects had in fact died. Such a proof is not impossible to obtain: rigor mortis is one sign and brain death is another. What the accounts actually describe is ‘dying process or near-death experience, not death itself.’”22 Second, we need to remember, as Paul and Linda Badham observe, that “any person hovering between life and death must be suffering profound physical and psychological stress. A brain starved of oxygen, drugged by hallucinatory painkillers, or excited by fever is hardly likely to function properly and who knows what visions could be accounted for by its disturbed conditions?”23 Some research has shown the similarity that exists between near-death experiences and the effects caused by psychedelic drugs. “Modern consciousness-research has shown that these similarities can be reproduced by drugs in psychedelic sessions. These experiences, thus, tend to belong to the continuum of psychic experiences, which have proved, not life after death, but that the relation between the conscious self and the embodied self is more complex than previously thought.”24 Lastly, how can it be established that near-death experiences are “real experiences,” rather than the product of the patients’ own mind? And why is it that nearly all the reports of near-death experiences concern happiness and heavenly fulfillment, but no glimpses of the fiery torments of hell? It is evident that when people are dying they prefer to dream about the bliss of heaven rather than the suffering of hell. But even the vision of heaven depends largely upon one’s religious background. Karlis Osis and Erlendur Haraldsson evaluated the reports of more than 1,000 deathbed experiences in the USA and India. They found that the vision of the Hindu patients was typically Indian, while that of the American was Western and Christian. For example, one college-educated Hindu woman had the experience of being brought to heaven on a cow, while an American patient who had prayed to St. Joseph encountered her patron saint in the experience.25 Such reports about afterlife experiences reflect the personal beliefs of the patients. What they experienced in the process of dying was most likely conditioned by their personal beliefs. We should always remember that deathbed or near-death experiences are experiences of people who are still alive or whose mind have regained consciousness. Whatever they experience under such circumstances is still part of their present life and not of life after death. The Bible does report the cases of seven of people who were raised from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-24; 2 Kings 4:25-37; Luke 7:11-15; 8:41-56; Acts 9:36-41; 20:9-11), but none of them had an afterlife experience to share. Lazarus was brought back to life after being clinically dead for four days did not report any exciting out-of-the-body experiences. The reason is simple. Death according to the Bible is the cessation of life of the whole person, body and soul. There is no form of conscious existence between death and resurrection. The dead rest unconsciously in their tombs until Christ will call them forth on the glorious day of His coming. New Age Movement. The belief in conscious life after death is popularized today especially by the New Age Movement.26 Defining this popular movement is not easy, because it represents a network of organizations and individuals who share common values and a common vision. These values are derived from Eastern/occult mysticism and a pantheistic world view according to which all share in the One who is God. They envision a coming “new age” of peace and mass enlightment, known as the “Age of Aquarius.” New Agers may differ on when and how the New Age begins, but they all agree that they can hasten the new order by becoming involved in the political, economic, social, and spiritual life. According to some social analysts, the New Age Movement has become a major cultural trend of our time. Elliot Miller defines it as “a third major social force vying with traditional Judeo-Christian religion and secular humanism for cultural dominance.”27 For the New Agers, the ultimate reality is a pantheistic God manifested as an impersonal, infinite consciousness, and force. Human beings are part of the divine consciousness and are separated from God only in their own consciousness. By means of specific techniques, like meditation, chanting, ecstatic dancing, and sensory deprivations, New Agers seek to experience oneness with God. Thus, salvation for the New Ager is equated with self-realization through special spiritual techniques. The Channeling Craze. An important aspect of the New Age Movement is the alleged communication with departed human and extra-human intelligences. This phenomenon is known as “channeling,” but it has been rightly called “Spiritism New Age Style.”28 Miller rightly notes that “spiritism has played a part historically in virtually all forms of paganism. Those who have allowed spirits to use their bodies in this way have been called a variety of names, including ‘shaman,’ ‘witch doctor,’ ‘medicine man,’ ‘oracle,’ ‘fortune-teller,’ and ‘seer.’ In our culture, the common term has been ‘medium,’ but in recent years is has been largely abandoned in favor of ‘channel’ or ‘channeler,’ reflecting, in part, a desire to break free from negative stereotypes that have come to be associated with mediums over the years.”29 A “channeler” is essentially a person who claims to be the recipient of teachings and wisdom from the great spirits of the past. The channeling business is booming in all the major American cities. According to the Los Angeles Times, in a decade the number of known professional channelers in Los Angeles has increased from two to over one thousand in a decade.30 This is compelling channelers to employ Madison Avenue psychology to sell their services. An advertisement by Taryn Krive, a popular channeler, gives a good idea of the services they provide: “Through Taryn, a number of Spirit Guides bring forth their teachings and messages. They will answer your questions regarding this life and other lives. They will help you identify your life lessons and unblock your highest potential for living and loving. . . . Meet your Spirit Guides. Learn to recall your past lives and release their influences from the present. Develop your channeling abilities (conscious channeling, automatic writing, trance channeling).”31 The person who has played a leading role in promoting the New Age Movement, especially channeling, is the famous actress Shirley Maclaine. Her books have sold over five million copies. The Out on a Limb mini-series sparked an unprecedented interest in channeling. MacLaine takes seriously her role as the chief evangelist of the New Age. Following her TV mini-series, she held two-day, nationwide seminars called “Connecting with the Higher Self.” Later she used the proceeds from the seminars to establish a 300 acre spiritual center near Pueblo, Colorado. The purpose of the center is to provide a trusted place where people can communicate with higher Spirits.32 An important factor which has contributed to the success of the New Age is its claim to connect people not only with their deceased loved ones, but also with the Great Spirits of the past. As parapsychologist and channel Alan Vaughan points out: “The thrill, the immediacy of that contact with another consciousness, may be the driving force behind the phenomenal growth of the practice of channeling.”33 Death as Transition to Higher Existence. Communicating with the spirits of the dead is based on the belief that death is not the end of life, but merely a transition to a higher plane of existence which makes it possible in time to reincarnate either on earth or elsewhere. Virginia Essene, who claims to be speaking as a channel for “Jesus,” states: “Death is an automatic and nearly immediate entrance into a greater sphere of learning, growth, and service to which you are well-accustomed already. You simply live at that higher level of purpose, joy and understanding.”34 In many ways, the New Age’s view of death as the immediate entrance into a higher sphere of living reflects the traditional Christian belief in the conscious survival of the soul at death. Both beliefs can be traced back to the first lie uttered by the serpent in the Garden of Eden: “You will not die” (Gen 3:4). This lie has lived on through the centuries with devastating effects on both Christian and non-Christian religions. In his penetrating analysis of the New Age Movement, Elliot Miller keenly observes: “It has been rightly noted by many Christian observers that the core New Age/channeling doctrines, ‘You can be as God,’ and ‘You shall not die,’ were first uttered by the serpent in the Garden of Eden (Gen 3:4-5). Embraced then, this ‘gospel’ produced all of the world’s misery. Embraced now, it will make all that God has done in Christ to remedy the situation of no avail to the individual in question.”35 Miller is right in noting that the belief in innate immortality promoted by the New Age today makes of no avail Christ’s provision of salvation, since people think they already have the resources to enter into a higher level of existence after death. Unfortunately, Miller fails to realize that the success of the New Age in promoting such a belief is largely due to the traditional Christian dualistic view of human nature. Christians who believe that the body is mortal and the soul immortal have no major difficulty in accepting the New Age view of death as the transition into a higher sphere of living. After all, the latter largely corresponds to the belief in the conscious existence of the saints’ souls in the bliss of Paradise. Conclusion. The preceding survey shows how Satan’s lie, “You shall not die” (Gen 3:4) has lived on in different forms throughout human history until our time. While during the Middle Ages, belief in the afterlife was promoted through literary and artistic, superstitious representations of the bliss of the saints and the torments of the sinners, today such a belief is propagated in a more sophisticated way through mediums, psychics, “scientific” research into near-death experiences, and New Age channeling with the spirits of the past. Satan’s methods have changed, but his objective is still the same: make people believe the lie that no matter what they do they will not die but become like gods by living for ever. Our only protection against such a deception is through a clear understanding of what the Bible teaches about the nature of death and the state of the dead. To these questions we now turn our attention. PART II: THE NATURE OF DEATH The Death of Socrates and of Christ. To illustrate the Biblical view of death, Oscar Cullmann contrasts the death of Socrates with that of Jesus.36 In his book Phaedo, Plato offers an impressive description of the death of Socrates. On the day of his death, Socrates taught his disciples the doctrine of the immortality of the soul and showed them how to live out such a belief in dying. He explained to his disciples how to liberate the soul from the prison of the body by occupying oneself with the eternal truths of philosophy. Since death completes the process of liberating of the soul, Plato tells us that Socrates went to his death by drinking the hemlock in complete peace and composure. For Socrates, death was the soul’s greatest friend because it sets the soul free from the shackles of the body. How different was Jesus’ attitude toward death! On the eve of His death in Gethsemane, Jesus was “greatly distressed and troubled” (Mark 14:33) and said to His disciples, “My soul is very sorrowful, even unto death” (Mark 14:34). For Jesus, death was not a great friend but a dreadful enemy, because it would separate Him from His Father. He did not face death with the composure of Socrates who met death peacefully as a friend. When confronted with the reality of death, Jesus cried to God saying: “Father, all things are possible to thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what thou wilt” (Mark 14:36). Jesus knew that to die meanstto be separated from God. Thus, He cried to God because He did not want to be forsaken by the Father or even by His disciples. What a contrast between Socrates and Jesus in their understanding and experience of death! Cullmann notes that “The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews . . . writes that Jesus ‘with loud cries and tears offered up prayers and supplications to him who was able to save him’ (Heb 5: 7). Thus, according to the Epistle of Hebrews, Jesus wept and cried in the face of death. There is Socrates, calmly and composedly speaking of the immortality of the soul; here Jesus, weeping and crying.”37 The contrast is evident, especially in the death-scene. Socrates drank the hemlock with sublime calm. Jesus cried: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34). This is not “death as a friend,” but as an enemy. Paul rightly calls it “the last enemy” (1 Cor 15:26), which at the end will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14). If death released the soul from the body and thus made it possible for the soul to enjoy communion with God, then Christ would have welcomed death for offering Him the opportunity to be reunited with His Father. But Jesus saw death as separation from God, who is life and the Creator of all life. He sensed this separation more than any other human being, because He was and still is closely connected to God. He experienced death in all its horror, not only in the body but also in His soul. This is why He cried: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matt 27:46). The contrast between the death of Socrates and the death of Jesus helps us to appreciate the Biblical view of death. In Greek thought, the death of the body was not in any sense the destruction of the true life. In Biblical thought, death is the destruction of all life created by God. “Therefore it is death and not the body which must be conquered by the resurrection.”38 This is why the resurrection of Jesus is so fundamental to the Christian faith. It provides the needed reassurance that death has been conquered for those who accept Christ’s provision of salvation. Cullmann points out that “belief in the immortality of the soul is not belief in a revolutionary event. Immortality, in fact, is only a negative assertion: the soul does not die, but simply lives on. Resurrection is a positive assertion: the whole man, who has really died, is recalled to life by a new act of creation of God. Something has happened—a miracle of creation! For something has also happened previously, something fearful: life formed by God has been destroyed.”39 Sin and Death. To understand the Biblical view of death, we need to go back to the account of creation where death is presented, not as a natural process willed by God, but as something unnatural opposed to God. The Genesis narrative teaches us that death came into the world as a result of sin. God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and added the warning: “In the day that you eat of it you shall die” (Gen 2:17). The fact that Adam and Eve did not die on the day of their transgression has led some to conclude that human beings do not actually die because they have a conscious soul that survives the death of the body. This figurative interpretation can hardly be supported by the text, which, literally translated, reads: “dying you shall die.” What God simply meant is that on the day they disobeyed, the dying process would begin. From a state in which it was possible for them not to die (conditional immortality), they passed into a state in which it was impossible for them not to die (unconditional mortality). Prior to the Fall the assurance of immortality was vouchsafed by the tree of life. After the Fall, Adam and Eve no longer had access to the tree of life (Gen 3:22-23) and, consequently, began experiencing the reality of the dying process. In the prophetic vision of the New Earth, the tree of life is found on both sides of the river as a symbol of the gift of eternal life bestowed upon the redeemed (Rev 21:2). The divine pronouncement found in Genesis 2:17 places a clear connection between human death and the transgression of God’s commandment. Thus, life and death in the Bible have religious and ethical significance because they are dependent upon human obedience or disobedience to God. This is a fundamental teaching of the Bible, namely, that death came into this world as a result of human disobedience (Rom 5:12; 1 Cor 15:21). This does not diminish the responsibility of the individual for his participation in sin (Ez 18:4, 20). The Bible, however, makes a distinction between the first death, which every human being experiences as a result of Adam’s sin (Rom 5:12; 1 Cor 15:21), and the second death experienced after the resurrection (Rev 20:6) as the wages for sins personally commited (Rom 6:23). Death as the Separation of the Soul from the Body. A major question we need to address at this point is the Biblical view of the nature of death. To be specific: Is death the separation of the immortal soul from the mortal body, so that when the body dies the soul lives on? Or, is death the cessation of existence of the whole person, body and soul? Historically, Christians have been taught that death is the separation of the immortal soul from the mortal body, so that the soul survives the body in a disembodied state. For example, the new Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “By death the soul is separated from the body, but in the resurrection God will give incorruptible life to our body, transformed by reunion with our soul.”40 Augustus Strong defines death in similar terms in his well-known Systematic Theology: “Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. We distinguish it from spiritual death, or the separation of the soul from God.”41 In his Lectures in Systematic Theology (widely used as a textbook), Calvinistic theologian Henry Clarence Thiessen expresses himself in a similar way: “Physical death relates to the physical body; the soul is immortal and as such does not die.”42 In his Christian Dogmatics, Francis Pieper, a conservative Lutheran theologian, states most clearly the historic view of death: “Temporal death is nothing other than a tearing asunder of men, the separation of the soul from the body, the unnatural disruption of the union of soul and body which has been created by God to be one.”43 Statements like these could be multiplied, since they are found in most systematic theology textbooks and in all major confessional documents. The above historical view of the nature of death as the separation of the soul from the body has come under a massive attack by many modern scholars. A few examples suffice to illustrate this point. Lutheran theologian Paul Althaus writes: “Death is more than a departure of the soul from the body. The person, body and soul, is involved in death. . . . The Christian faith knows nothing about an immortality of the personality. . . . It knows only an awakening from real death through the power of God. There is existence after death only by an awakening of the resurrection of the whole person.”44 Althaus argues that the doctrine of the immortality of the soul does not do justice to the seriousness of death, since the soul passes through death unscathed.45 Moreover, the notion that a person can be totally happy and blessed without the body denies the significance of the body and empties the resurrection of its meaning.46 If believers are already blessed in heaven and the wicked are already tormented in hell, why is the final judgment still necessary?47 Althaus concludes that the doctrine of the immortality of the soul rips apart what belongs together: the body and the soul, the destiny of the individual and that of the world.48 In his book The Body, John A. T. Robinson states: “The soul does not survive a man—it simply goes out, draining away with the blood.”49 In his monograph Life after Death, Taito Kantonen makes this pointed statement: “The Christian view of death is in full accord with the view of natural science as far as the latter goes. When we die we are really dead. Our hopes and desires cannot change this fact. Man does not differ from the rest of creation by having a soul that cannot die.”50 Even the liberal Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, in its article on death explicitly states: “The ‘departure’ of the nephesh [soul] must be viewed as a figure of speech, for it does not continue to exist independently of the body, but dies with it (Num 31:19; Jud 16:30; Ez 13:19). No Biblical text authorizes the statement that the ‘soul’ is separated from the body at the moment of death. The ruach ‘spirit’ which makes man a living being (cf. Gen 2:7), and which he loses at death, is not, properly speaking, an anthropological reality, but a gift of God which returns to him at the time of death (Eccl 12:7).”51 The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia acknowledges that “we are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea, that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament. The whole man dies, when in death the spirit (Ps 146:4; Eccl 12:7), or soul (Gen 35:18; 2 Sam 1:9; 1 Kings 17:21; Jonah 4:3), goes out of a man. Not only his body, but his soul also returns to a state of death and belongs to the nether-world; therefore the Old Testament can speak of a death of one’s soul (Gen 37:21; Num 23:10; Deut 22:21; Jud 16:30; Job 36:14; Ps 78:50).”52 This challenge of modern scholarship to the traditional view of death as the separation of the soul from the body has been long overdue. It is hard to believe that for most of its history, Christianity by and large has held to a view of human death and destiny which has been largely influenced by Greek thought, rather than by the teachings of Scripture. What is even more surprising is that no amount of Biblical scholarship will change the traditional belief held by most churches on the intermediate state. The reason is simple. While individual scholars can and will change their doctrinal views without suffering devastating consequences, the same is not true for well-established churches. A church that introduces radical changes in its historical doctrinal beliefs undermines the faith of its members and thus the stability of the institution. A case in point is the Worldwide Church of God which lost over half of its members when doctrinal changes were introduced by its leaders early in 1995. The high cost of rectifying denominational religious beliefs should not deter Bible-believing Christians who are committed, not to preserve traditional beliefs for tradition’s sake, but to constantly seek for a fuller understanding of the teachings of Word of God on issues relevant to their lives. Death as Cessation of Life. When we search the Bible for a description of the nature of death, we find many clear statements that need little or no interpretation. In the first place, Scripture describes death as a return to the elements from which man originally was made. In pronouncing sentence upon Adam after his disobedience, God said: “In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for . . . you are dust and to dust you shall return” (Gen 3:19). This graphic statement tells us that death is not the separation of the soul from the body, but the termination of one’s life, which results in the decay and decomposition of the body. “Since man is created of perishable matter, his natural condition is mortality (Gen 3:19).”53 A study of the words “to die,” “death,” and “dead” in Hebrew and Greek reveals that death is perceived in the Bible as the deprivation or cessation of life. The ordinary Hebrew word meaning “to die” is muth, which occurs in the Old Testament over 800 times. In the vast majority of cases, muth is used in the simple sense of the death of men and animals. There is no hint in its usage of any distinction between the two. A clear example is found in Ecclesiastes 3:19, which says: “For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other.” The Hebrew muth “to die” is sometimes used, as in English, in a figurative way to denote the destruction or elimination of a nation (Is 65:15; Hos 2:3; Am 2:2), a tribe (Deut 33:6; Hos 13:1), or a city (2 Sam 20:19). None of these figurative uses supports the idea of individual survival. On the contrary, we find that the word muth [“to die”] is used in Deuteronomy 2:16 in parallel with tamam, which means “to be consumed” or “to be finished.” The parallelism suggests that death is seen as the end of life. The corresponding, ordinary Greek word meaning “to die” is apothanein which is used 77 times in the New Testament. With few exceptions, the verb denotes the cessation of life. The exceptions are mostly figurative uses which depend upon the literal meaning. For example, Paul says: “We are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died” (2 Cor 5:14). It is evident that this is not referring to physical death but to the effects of Christ’s death on the believer’s position before God. We could translate “therefore all have died” as “therefore all are counted to have died.” None of the literal or figurative uses of the Hebrew muth or of the Greek apothanein suggests that the “soul” or “spirit” survives the death of an individual. Old Testament Descriptions of Death. We have just noted that the Hebrew and Greek verbs used in Scripture for “to die” do not really explain the meaning and nature of death, except to tell us that the death of men and animals is identical. More revealing is the use of the Hebrew noun maveth which is used about 150 times and is generally translated “death.” From the use of maveth in the Old Testament, we learn three important things about the nature of death. First, there is no remembrance of the Lord in death: “For in death [maveth] there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give thee praise” (Ps 6:5). The reason for no remembrance in death is simply because the thinking process stops when the body with its brain dies. “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that day his thoughts perish” (Ps 146:4). Since at death the “thoughts perish,” it is evident there is no conscious soul that survives the death of the body. If the thinking process, which is generally associated with the soul, survived the death of the body, then the thoughts of the saints would not perish. They would be able to remember God. But the fact is that “the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing” (Eccl 9:5). Second, no praise of God is possible in death or in the grave. “What profit is there in my death [maveth], if I go down to the Pit? Will the dust praise thee? Will it tell of thy faithfulness?” (Ps 30:9). By comparing death with dust, the Psalmist clearly shows that there is no consciousness in death because dust cannot think. The same thought is expressed in Psalm 115:17: “The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any that go down into silence.” Here the Psalmist describes death as a state of “silence.” What a contrast with the “noisy” popular vision of the afterlife where the saints praise God in Heaven and the wicked cry in agony in Hell! Third, death is described as a “sleep.” “Consider and answer me, O Lord my God; lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death” (Ps 13:3). This characterization of death as “sleep” occurs frequently in the Old and New Testaments because it fittingly represents the state of unconsciousness in death. Shortly we examine the significance of the “sleep” metaphor for understanding the nature of death. Some argue that the intent of the passages we have just quoted and which describe death as an unconscious state “is not to teach that the soul of man is unconscious when he dies,” but rather that “in the state of death man can no longer take part in the activities of the present world.”54 In other words, a dead person is unconscious as far as this world is concerned, but his soul is conscious as far as the world of the spirits is concerned. The problem with this interpretation is that it is based on the gratuitous assumption that the soul survives the death of the body, an assumption which is clearly negated in the Old Testament. We have found that in the Old Testament the death of the body, is the death of the soul because the body is the outer form of the soul. In several places, maveth [death] is used with reference to the second death. “As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live” (Ez 33:11; cf. 18:23, 32). Here “the death of the wicked” is evidently not the natural death that every person experiences, but the death inflicted by God at the End on unpenitent sinners. None of the literal descriptions or figurative references to death in the Old Testament suggests the conscious survival of the soul or spirit apart from the body. Death is the cessation of life for the total person. New Testament References to Death. The New Testament references to “death,” a term rendered by the Greek thanatos, are not as informative regarding the nature of death as those found in the Old Testament. The reason is partly due to the fact that in the Old Testament many of the references to death are found in the poetic or wisdom books like Psalms, Job, and Ecclesiastes. This kind of literature is absent in the New Testament. More important is the fact that death is seen in the New Testament from the perspective of Christ’s victory over death. This is a dominant theme in the New Testament which conditions the Christian view of death. Through His victory over death, Christ has neutralized the sting of death (1Cor 15:55); He has abolished death (2 Tim 1:10); He has overcome the devil who had power over death (Heb 2:14); He has in His hand the keys of the kingdom of death (Rev 1:18); He is the head of a new humanity as the first-born from the dead (Col 1:18); He causes believers to be born anew to a living hope through His resurrection from the dead (1 Pet 1:3). Christ’s victory over death affects the believer’s understanding of physical, spiritual, and eternal death. The believer can face physical death with the confidence that Christ has swallowed up death in victory and will awaken the sleeping saints at His coming (1 Cor 15:51-56). Believers who were spiritually “dead through trespasses and sins” (Eph 2:1; cf. 4:17-19; Matt 8:22) have been regenerated into a new life in Christ (Eph 4:24). Unbelievers who remain spiritually dead throughout their lives and do not accept Christ’s provision for their salvation (John 8:21, 24), on the Day of Judgment will experience the second death (Rev 20:6; 21:8). This is the final, eternal death from which there is no return. The figurative meanings of the word thanatos–death depend entirely on the literal meaning as cessation of life. To argue for the conscious existence of the soul on the basis of figurative meaning of death is to attribute to the word a meaning which is foreign to it. This runs contrary to literary and grammatical rules and destroys the connections among physical, spiritual, and eternal death. Death as Sleep in the Old Testament. In both the Old and New Testaments, death is often described as “sleep.” Before attempting to explain the reason for the Biblical use of the metaphor of “sleep” for death, let us look at a few examples. In the Old Testament, three Hebrew words meaning “sleep” are used to describe death. The most common word, shachav, is used in the frequently occuring expression so-and-so “slept with his fathers” (Gen 28:11; Deut 31:16; 2 Sam 7:12; 1 Kings 2:10). Beginning with its initial application to Moses (“Behold, you are about to sleep with your fathers” – Deut 31:16), and then to David (“Thou shall sleep with thy fathers” – 2 Sam 7:12, KJV), and Job (“Now I shall sleep in the dust” – Job 7:21, KJV), we find this beautiful euphemism for death running like an unbroken thread all through the Old and New Testaments, ending with Peter’s statement that “the fathers fell asleep” (2 Pet 3:4). Commenting on these references, Basil Atkinsom aptly observes: “Thus the kings and others who died are said to sleep with their fathers. If their spirits were alive in another world, could this possibly be regularly said without a hint that the real person was not sleeping at all?”55 Another Hebrew word for “sleep” is yashen. This word occurs both as a verb, “to sleep” (Jer 51:39, 57; Ps 13:3) and as a noun, “sleep.” The latter is found in the well-known verse of Daniel 12:2: “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Notice that in this passage both the godly and ungodly are sleeping in the dust of the earth and both will be resurrected at the End. A third Hebrew word used for the sleep of death is shenah. Job asks this rhetorical question: “But man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he?” (Job 14:10). His answer is: “As waters fail from a lake, and a river wastes away and dries up, so man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake, or be roused out of his sleep [shenah]” (Job 14:11-12; cf. Ps 76:5; 90:5). Here is a graphic description of death. When a person takes the last breath, “where is he?” that is, “what is left of him?” Nothing. He does not exist any more. He becomes like a lake or river whose water has dried up. He sleeps in the grave and “will not awake” till the end of the world. One wonders, would Job have given us such a negative description of death if he believed that his soul would survive death? If death introduced Job’s soul into the immediate presence of God in heaven, why does he speak of waiting “till the heavens are no more” (John 14:11) and “till my release should come” (Job 14:14)? It is evident that neither Job nor any other Old Testament believer knew of a conscious existence after death. Death as a Sleep in the New Testament. Death is described as sleep in the New Testament more frequently than in the Old. The reason may be that the hope of the resurrection, which is clarified and strengthened by Christ’s resurrection, gives new meaning to the sleep of death from which believers will awaken at Christ’s coming. As Christ slept in the tomb prior to His resurrection, so believers sleep in the grave while awaiting their resurrection. There are two Greek words meaning “sleep” which are used in the New Testament. The first is koimao which is used fourteen times for the sleep of death. A derivative of this Greek noun is koimeeteerion , from which comes our word cemetery. Incidentally, the root of this word is also the root of the word “home–oikos.” So the home and the cemetery are connected because both are a sleeping-place. The second Greek word is katheudein, which is generally used for ordinary sleep. In the New Testament it is used four times for the sleep of death (Matt 9:24; Mark 5:39; Luke 8:52; Eph 5:14; 1 Thess 4:14). At the time of Christ’s crucifixion, “many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep [kekoimemenon] were raised” (Matt 27:52). In the original, the text reads: “Many bodies of the sleeping saints were raised.” It is evident that what was resurrected was the whole person and not just the bodies. There is no reference to their souls being reunited with their bodies, obviously because this concept is foreign to the Bible. Speaking figuratively of Lazarus’ death, Jesus said: “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep [kekoimetai], but I go to awake him out of sleep” (John 11:11). When Jesus perceived that He was misunderstood, He “told them plainly, ‘Lazarus is dead” (John 11:14). Then Jesus hastened to reassure Martha: “Your brother will rise again” (John 11:23). This episode is significant, first of all, because Jesus plainly describes death as “sleep” from which the dead will awaken at the sound of His voice. Lazarus’ condition in death was similar to a sleep from which one awakens. Christ said: ” I go to awake him out of sleep” (John 11:11). The Lord carried out His promise by going to the tomb to awaken Lazarus by calling: “‘Lazarus, come out.’ And the dead man came out’” (John 11:43-44). The awakening of Lazarus out of the sleep of death by the sound of Christ’s voice parallels the awakening of the sleeping saints on the day of His glorious coming. They, too, shall hear the voice of Christ and come forth to life again. “The hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth” (John 5:28; cf. John 5:25). “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, . . . And the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thess 4:16). There is harmony and symmetry in the expressions “sleeping” and “awakening” as used in the Bible for going into and coming out of a death state. The two expressions corroborate the notion that death is an unconscious state like sleeping, from which believers will awake on the day of Christ’s coming. Lazarus Had No Afterlife Experience. Lazarus’ experience is also significant because he spent four days in the grave. This was not a near-death experience, but a real death experience. If, as popularly believed, the soul at death leaves the body and goes to heaven, then Lazarus would have had an amazing experience to share about the four days he would have spent in paradise. The religious leaders and the people would have done all in their power to elicit from Lazarus as much information as possible about the unseen world. As Robertson Nichol puts it, “Had he [Lazarus] learned anything of the spirit world, it must have oozed out.”56 Such information would have provided valuable answers to the question of life after death which was so hotly debated among the Sadducees and Pharisees (Matt 22:23, 28; Mark 12:18, 23; Luke 20:27, 33). But Lazarus had nothing to share about life after death, because during the four days he spent in the tomb he slept the unconscious sleep of death. What is true of Lazarus is also true of six other persons who were raised from the dead: The widow’s son (1 Kings 17:17-24); the Shunammite’s son (2 Kings 4:18-37); the widow’s son at Nain (Luke 7:11-15); the daughter of Jairus (Luke 8:41, 42, 49-56); Tabitha (Acts 9:36-41); and Eutychus (Acts 20:9-12). Each of these persons came out of death as if it were out of a profound sleep, with the same feeling and individuality, but with no afterlife experience to share. There are no indications that the soul of Lazarus, or of the other six persons raised from the dead, had gone to heaven. None of them had a “heavenly experience” to share. The reason being that none of them had ascended to heaven. This is confirmed by Peter’s reference to David in his speech on the day of Pentecost: “Brethren, I may say to you confidently of the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is still with us to this day” (Acts 2:29). Some could argue that what was in the grave was David’s body, not his soul which had gone to heaven. But this interpretation is negated by Peter’s explicit words: “For David did not ascend into the heavens” (Acts 2:34). The Knox translation renders it, “David never went up to heaven.” The Cambridge Bible has the following note: “For David is not ascended. Better ascended not. He went down to the grave and ‘slept with his fathers.’” What sleeps in the grave, according to the Bible, is not merely the body but the whole person who awaits the resurrection awakening. Paul and the Sleeping Saints. In the two great chapters on the resurrection in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15, Paul repeatedly speaks of those who have fallen “asleep” in Christ (1 Thess 4:13, 14, 15; 1 Cor 15:6, 18, 20). A look at some of Paul’s statements sheds light on what Paul meant by characterizing death as sleep. In writing to the Thessalonians, who were grieving over their loved ones who had fallen asleep before experiencing the coming of Christ, Paul reassures them that as God raised Jesus from the dead, so He will through Christ “bring with him those who have fallen asleep” (1 Thess 4:14). Some maintain that Paul is here speaking of disembodied souls, which allegedly ascended to heaven at death and which will return with Christ when He descends to this earth at His return. This interpretation ignores three major things. First, our study has shown that the Bible nowhere teaches that the soul at death ascends to heaven. Second, in the context, Paul is not speaking of immortal souls but of “those who are asleep” (1 Thess 4:13; cf. v. 14) and of “the dead in Christ” (1 Thess 4:16). “The dead in Christ will rise first” from their graves (1 Thess 4:16) and will not descend from heaven. There is no hint that the bodies rise from the graves and the souls descend from heaven to be reunited with the bodies. Such a dualistic notion is foreign to the Bible. Leon Morris’ comments that “Paul says will bring, not ‘will raise’”58 is inaccurate, because Paul says both: Christ will raise the dead and bring them with Him. Thus, the context suggests that Christ brings with Him the dead which are raised first, that is, prior to the translation of the living believers. Third, if Paul really believed that “the dead in Christ” were not really dead in the grave but alive in heaven as disembodied souls, he would have capitalized on their blissful condition in heaven to explain to the Thessalonians that their grieving was senseless. Why should they grieve for their loved ones if they were already enjoying the bliss of heaven? The reason Paul did not give such an encouragement is obviously because he knew that sleeping saints were not in heaven but in their graves. This conclusion is supported by the assurance Paul gave to his readers that living Christians would not meet Christ at His coming before those who had fallen asleep. “We who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep” (1 Thess 4:15). The reason is that “the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess 4:16-17). The fact that the living saints will meet with Christ at the same time as the sleeping saints indicates that the latter have not yet been united with Christ in heaven. If the souls of the sleeping saints were already enjoying fellowship with Christ in heaven and were to descend with Christ to earth at His second Advent, then obviously they would have an unmistakable priority over the living saints. But the truth is that both sleeping and living believers are awaiting their longed-for union with the Savior; a union which both will experience at the same time on the day of Christ’s coming. Paul’s discussion of the sleeping saints in 1 Corinthians 15 confirms much of what we have already found in 1 Thessalonians 4. After affirming the fundamental importance of Christ’s resurrection for the Christian faith and hope, Paul explains that “if Christ had not been raised . . . Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished” (1 Cor 15:18-19). Paul could hardly have said that the sleeping saints would have perished without the guarantee of Christ’s resurrection, if he believed that their souls were immortal and were already enjoying the bliss of Paradise. If Paul believed the latter, he probably would have said that without Christ’s resurrection the soul of the sleeping saints would remain disembodied for all eternity. But Paul makes no allusion to such a possibility, because he believed that the whole person, body and soul, would have “perished” without the guarantee of Christ’s resurrection. It is significant that in the whole chapter which is devoted to the importance and dynamics of the resurrection, Paul never hints at the alleged reunification of the body with the soul at the resurrection. If Paul had held such a belief, he hardly could have avoided making some allusions to the reattachment of the body to the soul, especially in his discussions of the transformation of the believers from a mortal to an immortal state at Christ’s coming. But the only “mystery” that Paul reveals is that “we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed” (1 Cor 15:51). This change from a perishable to an imperishable nature occurs for all, living and dead, at the same time, namely, at the sounding of “the last trumpet” (1 Cor 15:52). The change has nothing to do with disembodied souls regaining possession of their resurrected bodies. Rather, it is a change from mortal to immortal life for both the living and the dead in Christ: “The mortal puts on immortality” (1 Cor 15:54). The Significance of the “Sleep” Metaphor. The popular use of the “sleep” metaphor to describe the state of the dead in Christ raises the question of its implications for the nature of death.
October 27, 2006 at 2:25 am
In contradiction to post #604
…and now the story of Dismas, the Good Thief
The Thief on the Cross
Probably more than any others, these verses in Luke are used to uphold the belief that those who die go to heaven immediately fully aware and fully conscious. This is the LITV version:
Luk 23:42 And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when You come in Your kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.
This dialog between Jesus and the thief on the cross is only recorded in the gospel of Luke so we have no other account with which to compare it.
As Greek has no punctuation some who claim the spirits of the departed are resting or sleeping would move the comma, placing it after the word “today” so it reads “…verily I say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise.”
I reject this as contrived and artificial. Not only that, it make the word “today” superfluous. You could then remove that word and the statement by Christ would read the same. The word “today” is essential in the statement or Christ would not have spoken it. It must be considered. I have checked over two dozen translations from the Geneva Bible to the New King James. There is only one translation that moves the comma, The Scriptures.
Murdock’s New Testament gives, “Jesus said to him: Verily I say to you, That this day thou shalt be with me in paradise and James Moffatt’s translation also changes it slightly. “I tell you truly,” said Jesus, “you will be in Paradise with me this very day.” The word “today” is a key ingredient to our understanding of Luke 23:42-43.
Another argument is that, although in Paradise with Christ, both are sleeping. This too I reject for the account gives no indication that they are sleeping or resting. If they are in Paradise or in God’s Kingdom they wouldn’t be continually sleeping.
Christ died on the cross the very day He made that statement. Further, He committed His spirit to God (in verse 46) just before He breathed His last.
These verses are not only a problem for those of us that believe the spirit that returns to God on death is in a state of rest awaiting the resurrection on Christ’s return, but they are somewhat of a mystery to all Christians for how could the thief be with Christ in Paradise, or in His kingdom, on the very day that Christ was laid in the tomb and remained there for three days. Also when Christ arose He walked the earth for 40 days before He ascended into heaven and even said that He not yet ascended to His Father, John 20:17.
Indeed, many unusual beliefs of Christians have their origination in these two verses of Luke. Some think Paradise is a temporary holding place of the righteous dead. Some equate Paradise with Heaven, others with Hell and some with Purgatory. Some even equate Paradise with a prison based on 1 Peter 3:18-20.
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An Analysis
There are three important things to consider in verses 42 and 43 of Luke before we can arrive at a solution:
First. The thief’s statement and request, “remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
Second, the promise of Paradise.
Third, the use of the word “today” by Christ.
First, the thief’s request:
The thief had acknowledged his guilt, confessed his sin and admitted he was receiving a just punishment. He had recognized and believed in the divinity of Christ and called Him Lord. And finally he asked to be remembered when Christ entered His Kingdom. The thief looked for Jesus to rule as King. (Have we done as much?) There is no mystery about the thief’s request. It is straight forward. It is simple, to the point and easy to fathom, and it is extremely important to our understating of these two verses.
Second, the promise of Paradise:
“Paradise” appears only three times in the New Testament. This statement by Christ in Luke is one of them. The second is in II Corinthians 12:2-4 where Paul tells of his being called up to the third heaven which he calls Paradise. This was the time of his conversion as related by Luke in Acts 9. The last is in Revelation 2:7 “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”
First we will consider what Paul wrote of Paradise:
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Reading through commentaries on these verses one comes up with a plethora of interpretations on the event and the word “Paradise”. Some think two events or raptures, some only one. There is discussion on 7 heavens as some Jews believed or only 3. Some think heaven and Paradise are the same, others not. If I posted what one commentator thought it could be countered by what another thought.
“Paradise” appears only three times in Scripture but, interestingly, it occurs often in the Septuagint as the translation of the word garden; Gen. 2:8-10, Gen. 2:15-16; Gen. 3:1-3, Gen. 3:8,Gen. 3:16, Gen. 3:23-24; Gen. 13:10; Num. 24:6; Isa. 51:3; Eze. 28:13; Eze. 31:8-9; Joe. 2:3. And also Isa. 1:30; Jer. 29:5; and of the word פּרדס pardēc in Neh. 2:8; Ecc. 2:5; Son. 2:13.
So, the word means a beautiful garden. The Septuagint equates it to the Garden in Eden. Christ promised it to the thief who asked to be in His Kingdom. Paul says he was taken there. The only biblical verse that describes it at all is Rev. 2:7 “…To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”
I believe Paul was taken to heaven and shown Paradise just as John was taken up and shown the culmination of this present age. We lost Paradise when Adam & Eve were driven from the garden. We will regain it when Christ comes again.
This reference in Revelation, going back to the Garden in Eden of Genesis, coincides precisely to the description given of “Paradise” in the Complete Word Study Dictionary:
“This is an oriental word which the Greeks borrowed from the Persians, among whom it meant a garden, park, or enclosure full of all the vegetable products of the earth… gardens or enclosures full of every beautiful and good thing the earth could produce. Sanskrit, paradésha and paradisha meant a land elevated and cultivated. In Armenian, pardes means a garden around the house planted with grass, herbs, and trees for food and ornament. The Septuagint uses it to refer to the Garden of Eden (Gen 2:8).”
In Revelation chapters 2 and 3 Christ makes promises to those that “overcome.” The first of these, in Rev. 2:7 is the promise of Paradise. The other six are; they shall not be hurt by the second death, hidden manna and a new name, power to rule over the nations and the morning star, clothed in white raiment and have his name confessed before The Father, and become a pillar in the temple of God, in New Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven. Obviously these are speaking of the same event. The establishment of Christ’s Kingdom on earth. This is what the thief asked for. This is what Christ promised him.
So then, Christ promised the thief that he would be with Christ in His kingdom which would be similar to an Eden-like garden. So what is the Kingdom of God?
It is the kingdom spoken of by Daniel in chapter 2.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
And again in Daniel 7
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Or in the Revelation
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
It is the kingdom foretold to Mary and looked for by the Jews.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Is it correct to equate the Paradise promised the thief to the Kingdom foretold to Mary? I have no doubt that it is. It is a restoration of the Garden in Eden.
Isa 35:1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.
Isa 35:1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.
Isa 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Isa 35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
Isa 35:7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
Isa 35:10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Jer 31:12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit for the kingdom of heaven is theirs!
Mat 5:4 Blessed are the mourners: for they shall be comforted!
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth!
So, if the coming Kingdom is the same as Paradise why did Christ just not say to the thief, “You will be with me in My Kingdom”? But if He had, then how could He have inserted the word “today” as He certainly didn’t enter His Kingdom on the day of His crucifixion? The word “today” is the enigma and the key to understanding these verses.
Third, the word “today”:
Christ said this would happen “today.” Surely He was mistaken? Or could it be that we don’t quite understand what He meant by “today?”
The word in Greek is sémeron it is an adverb. It appears 63 times in KJV New Testament. 39 times as “day” and 23 times as “this day” and once as “this day’s.” It means this very day. It has the meaning of immediacy. It is comparable to “right now” or “this present day.” For Christ to have used this particular word rather than the Greek hēméra which could mean “on that day” or “on the occasion of” or “in that day” is another problem.
One possible explanation is that Christ meant that on the day He enters His Kingdom the thief would be there with him. However, as mentioned above, if this is what He meant, it is the wrong Greek word. Hēméra would have been more correct.
A possible solution:
Christ spoke directly to the thief, “…Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.” The thief then died. The NT would say, as it said of Stephen, “…he fell asleep.”
When the thief awakes, when Christ returns, raises the dead and enters His Kingdom it will appear to the thief as though it is the same day.
Isa 26:19 Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
Still not convinced?
The thief and Christ would be together. …you will be with Me…
Look at what Paul tells the Corinthians:
2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
Paul expects to be presented to Christ at the resurrection of the dead, when Christ returns. That is when Paul, the Corinthian saints and the thief will be with Christ.
Rather than disproving that the dead do not rest or sleep Christ’s conversation with the thief proves it.
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
Still not convinced?
There is still another aspect that must be considered. It is the absolute answer to the problem.
In the Gospel of Luke Jesus speaks to Zacchaeus in chapter 19, verses 9-10. “And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
The words “…This day..” in verse 9 is the same Greek word sémeron used by Christ in speaking to the thief on the cross.
As mentioned above, the thief had admitted his guilt, confessed his sin, acknowledged Jesus as the Savior and looked forward to being with Jesus in His kingdom. Because of what the thief said; that very day – today – sémeron, he was assured of being with Christ in Paradise.
“And Jesus said unto him, sémeron is salvation come to this house.”
“And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, sémeron you will be with Me in Paradise. ”
Paul quotes Isaiah 49:8 in 2 Corinthians 6:2, “(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)”
Because of the thief’s statement and request on that day, on that very day (sémeron) the thief was assured of his salvation.
He would be with Christ in Paradise, in Christ’s Kingdom, when Christ returns.
October 27, 2006 at 2:47 am
Angel,Red Dawn,lovesamerica: Comments?
zealot, DJ, Americanwoman:What do you think?
October 27, 2006 at 3:45 am
I’m sorry Big Jake; I’ve got a meltdown in paradise happening right now and can’t otherwise respond.
I still only believe in what I said.
No more, no less.
October 28, 2006 at 9:41 am
Big Jake- Thank you for asking me to join in on any comments. I read this forum from time to time and I know there are some close bonds between most of you. I am touched by the friendships you all share.
I lost my Mother this past Tuesday, Oct. 24th. She had suffered a lengthy illness and died from brain cancer. I had taken July and August off from work and took care of her along with hospice until it was too difficult to do on my own. My Mom was 85 and she was a devout christian. I have three brothers and we’re all christians.
At the funeral home, I had the opportunity to talk with our Pastor about the topic of communicating with the afterlife. He did agree that there is a short period of time of transition before entering into the Kingdom of God, but he was opposed to communicating with “spirits” and he didn’t believe that once they made the transition that they walk among us freely. He said that was clearly against scripture. He also pointed out, that satan is very crafty and loves to immatate the things of God and will do anything to keep our eyes off the Truth. If he can cast any doubt on anything that scripture says, he can lead us down a path of unbelief in other things. Rest in Peace means just that. REST in PEACE.
After the funeral today, several friends and family gathered at my brother’s home. Eventually the conversation got around to the afterlife and several people spoke of seeing their loved ones and different experiences they had. Most of the time I thought to myself, what was the point? I’m also very leary of the spirit world because as mortals we are so limited and can’t really ever know for sure just “who” this apparition is. We want to believe it’s our loved one because “it” can talk and look like the person we love, but do we really know it’s them? I believe satan has been observing us for thousands of years and he knows exactly how to “play” us. I think we have to be on guard at all on times, and weigh everything that happens to us against the Word of God.
During my Mom’s illness we shared so many beautiful conversations and we told each other daily how much we loved each other. I will never forget the time I spent with her. There is no reason for her to return to any of us on Earth.
I know she’s with Jesus Christ right now, and she’s with her family and my father and all the loved ones that went on before her. And I will see her again when my time to make this transition comes.
Along with the others on this forum, I enjoy reading your posts and I would enjoy knowing you in person. I get the “feeling” you’re still searching for something. I hope you find all the answers you’re looking for.
God Bless.
October 28, 2006 at 11:28 am
Angel:
I am so sorry for your loss. I know that your dear mother is in Heaven with all of her loved ones who predeceased her. Her transition from this earth to her home in Heaven was a beautiful journey . You assisted her with love during her last days on earth. You expressed your love for each other . May she rest in peace.
Angel ,you are very much a part of this forum .
I have always felt a close bond towards you . We are a family here and you are very much a part of it .
You are right. I am still searching for something. Like tribune Marcellus Gallio in The Robe, I have been searching for an answer .That answer is Jesus Christ and what he means to me. My quest now is to share the love of my Lord with all who I meet on this earth.
Again ,my deepest condolences.
October 28, 2006 at 1:32 pm
Big Jake: You are a dear, sweet man and thank you for your condolences. I am so grateful that the majority of people on this forum are believers. You are definitely a leader for Christ, and your posts always touch our hearts.
A friend of the family just dropped by the house and brought me a beautiful, single red rose in a vase. The card read, “Earth has a lost a rose, but Heaven has gained one.” It brings tears to my eyes. I miss my Mom. She was a beautiful lady. It’s comforting to know this is only a temporary separation.
May God pour His blessings on you. Your love and dedication to Him moves me to do more on His behalf.
Thanks, Lou.
October 28, 2006 at 3:17 pm
America the Beautiful,
or so you used to be.
Land of the Pilgrims’ pride;
I’m glad they’ll never see.
Babies piled in dumpsters,
Abortion on demand,
Oh, sweet land of liberty;
your house is on the sand.
Our children wander aimlessly
poisoned by cocaine
choosing to indulge their lusts,
when God has said abstain
From sea to shining sea,
our Nation turns away
From the teaching of God’s love
and a need to always pray.
We’ve kept God in our temples,
how callous we have grown.
When earth is but His footstool,
and Heaven is His throne.
We’ve voted in a government
that’s rotting at the core,
Appointing Godless Judges;
who throw reason out the door,
Too soft to place a killer
in a well deserved tomb,
But brave enough to kill a baby
before he leaves the womb.
You think that God’s not angry,
that our land’s a moral slum?
How much longer will He wait
before His judgment comes?
How are we to face our God,
from Whom we cannot hide?
What then is left for us to do,
but stem this evil tide?
If we who are His children,
will humbly turn and pray;
Seek His holy face
and mend our evil way:
Then God will hear from Heaven;
and forgive us of our sins,
He’ll heal our sickly land
and those who live within.
But, America the Beautiful,
if you don’t – then you will see,
A sad but Holy God
withdraw His hand from Thee.
~~Judge Roy Moore~~
October 28, 2006 at 4:58 pm
Big Jake,
Once again, an excellent post. Comments: I’m not one to debate such matters with someone who has obviously spent a lot of time studying the scriptures. My belief system is a lot like the gunslinger character in the Rick O’Shay cartoon. The character, Hipshot Percussion, would be riding through town on a Sunday morning and would pass the preacher meeting the congregation as they entered the church. He’d call out and invite Hipshot to attend. Hipshot would reply he already had a service he was on his way to attend. Last frame of the cartoon Hipshot was looking out over a beautiful valley into the sunrise, hat over his heart, head bowed in prayer. I am a lot like that. I know that we are supposed to give glory to God, but I feel a lot of congregations/faiths have taken it too far. I have problems with groups spend thousands of dollars on a new sanctuary when that money could go to an outreach program. Sorry, a bit off subject, but that’s why I feel I get most of what I need directly from God. He guides me, He sustains me, and He provides me with what He thinks I need to accomplish His task He has given me. If I need to know more I’ll have a dream/vision, He’ll speak to me, or set a bush on fire to get my attention.
I feel that life is complicated enough without concerning ourselves with matters of the afterlife. I do my best to follow the Ten Commandments, consider WWJD?, and generally attempt to be a good example for my family and those around me.
I have experienced things that I cannot explain, seen stuff that I cannot attribute to “things of this earth,” and feel that I am being watched over. We are all placed here to serve a part in God’s grand design. What my part is I don’t know. I have no idea if what I say or do around other people will make a difference in their lives, thus influencing the future. Or if I try to be a positive influence to others off-sets a potential evil from another source.
As I said in a previous post, I acknowledge other belief systems. Astrology is one. I don’t rely on it’s predictions, but I notice that some of the astrological traits for my birth date seem to fit me. I was born on 21 Oct, that makes me a Libra on the cusp of Scorpio. I tend to order, fairness, and balance, but at times I exhibit the passionate, hot-headed, and headstrong nature of the Scorpio.
My Dad formed his way of living by watching the serial western movies as a kid. He basically lived “the code of the west.” He treated other folks fairly, respected women, treated the world around him with respect, and did OK if I say so myself. He was a geologist. Religion and, let’s say things supernatural, were an uncomfortable subject for him. We kids were given the opportunities to go to church and form our own beliefs. Mine didn’t gel until I was in my late 20’s.
Is God a part of my life? YES! Do I worry about what I cannot see/touch/feel/control? It depends. Do I believe that Satan is doing what he can to trip us up? YES! Do I worry that he’ll win? NO! It’s already been decided; he will lose. Is there someone watching over us? I’d like to think so. I know someone is watching over me. I first became aware of it when walking to school with three friends one morning. Like an idiot, I decided to dart out from between two parked cars mid-block to cross the street. The next thing I know, I’ve got my hands on the right-side fender of the car looking through the windshield at the face of a woman with an astonished expression. My friends said when I was about to clear the parked cars and be hit by that woman’s car, I went straight up in the air, spun around 360 degrees, came back down, and landed on my feet as described above. What happened? I have no explaination other than God said, “It’s not your time.” Was an Angel or a departed relative acting on God’s directive there that day? Again, I cannot answer.
There have been other incidents in my life where I should be pushing up daisies instead of recounting these instances in my life right now. Again, I give credit where credit is due (God’s love/grace/etc) and thank Him as often as I can think of (I’m human, I get busy with life’s details and forget) for all He has provided me and my family.
Bottom line, I’m complex in some ways, very simple in others. My belief system is simple: God is the Boss, I’m not. I do my best to listen to my heart to do His will. There will be times when I am blessed with an experience that cannot rationally be explained. He’s all-knowing, I’m not.
Don’t let life’s complexities distract you too much. As they say, “Sometimes it’s hard to remember your initial task is to drain the swamp when you’re up to your hip-pockets in alligators.” Stay focused, God will help.
October 29, 2006 at 5:03 am
DJ:
You wrote:
“I know someone is watching over me. I first became aware of it when walking to school with three friends one morning. Like an idiot, I decided to dart out from between two parked cars mid-block to cross the street. The next thing I know, I’ve got my hands on the right-side fender of the car looking through the windshield at the face of a woman with an astonished expression. My friends said when I was about to clear the parked cars and be hit by that woman’s car, I went straight up in the air, spun around 360 degrees, came back down, and landed on my feet as described above. What happened? I have no explaination other than God said, “It’s not your time.” Was an Angel or a departed relative acting on God’s directive there that day? Again, I cannot answer.”
Amazing-Did you discuss this with your friends who witnessed the event? Did you tell anyone or were you concerned about their reaction?
I am going to relate a similar story. As you are aware ,in post #482 I told you that my dad was to be my youngest son’s Godfather.
“When little Louie was born my wife Carmen suggested that my parents should be his Godparents. We had them over for dinner 15 years ago in February. They were so proud ,especially my Dad. I will always remember the look on his face as he held the baby that night.
A week later he wasn’t feeling well and was admitted to the hospital. He had pains in his legs .The doctors began treating him for phlebitis. It turned out to be pancreatic cancer. He never made it out of the hospital to baptize the baby. A liver biopsy went terribly wrong and he went into shock.
I made it to the hospital on the night he died”.
When Louie was a toddler,Carmen took him with her to visit her sister. They have a big inground swimming pool. My wife was having a conversation with her sister on the patio while Louie was playing with his toys a few feet away. My wife looked to see what Louie was doing and lo and behold he wasn’t there. She got up to look for him and saw that he was at the far end of the pool,the deep end, standing on the edge. She didn’t call , as she was afraid she would startle him . She started to make her way toward him.
As he began to wobble and lose his balance,
Carmen felt a “push”,a strong pressure on her back and she made up the distance between where she was and where the baby was in no time at all. She was able to catch him just as he lost his balance and was about to tumble into the deep end of the pool.
What was the “push” she felt? How did she cover so much ground so quickly(50-60 feet)? Was it my son’s Guardian angel, was it his Godfather (my father) watching over him? All I know is it defies logic how he didn’t tumble into the pool and drown that day 13 years ago.
October 29, 2006 at 5:15 am
lovesamerica:
How are you doing with the diet? I am down 2 lbs. My wife made meatloaf last night and I fell off the wagon a little . Back on it now.
Gym 3x per wk .
New machine for the abs. works great. I am concentrating on it . I want to surprise Carmen with a flat stomach and well defined abs”6 pack”.
Not bad for an old man like me if I can pull it off.
October 29, 2006 at 5:30 am
God Bless
the U.S.A.
If tomorrow all the things were gone I’d worked for all my life,
And I had to start again with just my children and my wife.
I’d thank my lucky stars to be living here today,
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom and they can’t take that away.
And I’m proud to be an American where at least I know I’m free.
And I won’t forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.
And I’d gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land God bless the U.S.A.
From the lakes of Minnesota, to the hills of Tennessee,
across the plains of Texas, from sea to shining sea,
From Detroit down to Houston and New York to LA,
Well, there’s pride in every American heart,
and it’s time to stand and say:
I’m proud to be an American where at least I know I’m free.
And I won’t forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.
And I’d gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land God bless the U.S.A.
God Bless The U.S.A. Words and Music by Lee Greenwood
© Copyright 1984 by MUSIC CORPORATION OF AMERICA, INC. & SONGS OF POLYGRAM INTERNATIONAL, INC.
All Rights Controlled and Administered by MUSIC CORPORATION OF AMERICA, INC.
International Copyright Secured All Rights Reserved
October 29, 2006 at 1:03 pm
Big Jake, the diet is coming along fine. I fall off the wagon a little bit here and there because in the back of my mind I know I can come home and run on the treadmill and burn off the extra calories. I don’t know if that’s good or not. I had a sizzling apple pie for dessert at Applebees the other night after I had ordered a weight watchers menu item. Nuts, huh? But, I’ve lost 7 lbs. My jeans go on easier. I can feel it in my clothes. I’m motivated to lose weight so even tho I cheat once in awhile, it’s on my mind to win this thing. I owe you bit time. You’re my best friend in the whole world.
I met what I thought was a real nice guy. I was physically attracted to him and we could talk and laugh together easily. He took me to Applebees and I had a wonderful time. Yesterday I found out the jerk is married. I didn’t know it and if I had I NEVER would have gone out with him. WHY do men do that? I hate guys like that. I called him on his cell phone and confronted him and he tried to give me some song and dance about how he’s been unhappy for a long time. I told him to leave me alone and never talk to me again. He has a little baby, too. I was so excited about this man. He’s 27 and cute. Why does this stuff happen to me? I don’t chase men or give them the come get me, I want you look, and he told me he’s been noticing me for a long time. What a line. I’d be so hurt if I was married and my husband did that to me. I feel like calling his wife. I wouldn’t want her to find out I was out with him and think I did it knowing he was married. I would never mess around with a married man. I hope he burns in hell.
Angel, I’m so sorry for you. My sympathy goes out to you. You seem like a beautiful person. So selfless. God will bless you for taking care of your Mom. You’re fortunate to have the time to say all the things you wanted to.
DJ, as always you make me laugh. I love your humor. And you write so well. I don’t know how anyone couldn’t love you.
Zach, where you been?
October 29, 2006 at 9:54 pm
Re: Big Jake # 613. No, my friends and I were 8 or 9 at the time, just kids. If we did talk about what happened I can’t recall what was said other than them telling me what they saw. I do remember that I was rather shaken up by the event and was a lot more careful about crossing the street from then on.
Re: lovesamerica # 616. Thanks, but don’t encourage me too much. I’ve always been a bit of a clown. I like to make others laugh, but know when to be serious, as you can see from my posts. Glad to hear your weight loss is going well and pooh! on the married jerk who thought he could play around on his wife, good relationship or not. It’s twerps like that who give the males a bad reputation. So, keep kissing frogs, one is bound to turn into a prince. And don’t worry about warts. There’s medication for those.
October 30, 2006 at 1:57 am
lovesamerica:
my post #334
I wrote:
” Make sure you wait for the right guy . You deserve the best.”
There are alot of creeps out there. I tell my daughters that all the time. More than half of all marriages end in divorce now-a-days, and that’s just counting the people who actually get married. The live togethers are lacking even the desire to give it a try.
Just don’t give up and don’t give in. Wait for the right guy. You know how I feel about you. I would be proud to have you as my daughter-in-law.
October 30, 2006 at 2:42 am
Big Jake, what you said got me teary. I would love to have someone like you for a father-in-law. I would love to have you for a DAD. I promise you, I AM going to wait for the right guy. My Mom and Grandma raised us to have high morals. I won’t give up and I won’t give in. You’ll probably be very surprised when I tell you this, but I really believe in marriage and I believe intimacy should be saved for marriage. I’m not loose, and like I said before, I’m not ugly and it’s not because guys haven’t tried. I just think I want to be totally and crazy in love with my husband and be exclusivly for him. I want my husband to be the only one ever. One of my friends at work told me guys don’t want girls like that anymore, that they think they’re weird. I told her I’d rather be weird than sleezy. I’m not giving anything away on a maybe. I know I’ve written some stuff on here to Zach that might give you the wrong impression, but I’m really all just talk. He doesn’t know me and he’s really just someone I THINK would be close to what I want, but if I really met him, he’d probably be different than what I imagined so I just kid around. But you, you’re special because I never really had a Dad at home, and if I did, I’d pick you. You’re just loving and neat. You’re wife and kids are lucky.
October 30, 2006 at 6:29 am
lovesamerica:
Your friend is sooooo wrong. A guy who wants to get married and settle down would love to have a girl who saved herself just for him.
Everybody remembers their “first time”. If a guy is lucky enough to have a girl who thought he was so special that she shared her first time with him, well… he is one lucky guy.
They will have one special relationship.
Anniversaries take on a special meaning. Romance becomes a part of everyday life.
If they are careful ,life in general becomes a shared adventure with its ups and downs, troubles and triumphs . It takes on a special meaning. You care about your spouse. You put your spouse before yourself. And if you are lucky and kids come along ,well the love grows exponentially.
But you have to work at it ,guard it as if it were a flame in a windstorm and you were out of matches .
I wish that for you. I wish that for my kids.
My daughter Christina is 25 and is getting married next year. She found her special guy.
My son Joe is 23. My wish for him is that he finds a girl who will help him find the answers .
It’s all so simple yet so complex.
October 30, 2006 at 11:47 am
lovesamerica: Big Jake is right. You are rare and very special. Caroline was only 19 when I met her and she grew up in a home with 3 older brothers and a father that would’ve taken apart anyone that took advantage of her. I remember when I first met her telling them, wow, you’re sister is beautiful. Naturally, because I worked for them I wasn’t going to hit on her, but it wasn’t because I didn’t want to. I was always hoping I would run in to her when they weren’t around so I could just talk to her on my own. I never saw her out in the bars and never ran into her anywhere unless I was at her house with her brothers or she came out to the jobs we were on. They knew I was drooling. It was several weeks before her brothers felt they could trust me with her and told me that Caroline was interested in me, too. But they also told me, don’t ever hurt my sister. I was crazy about her and had no intention of doing that. I can’t describe the respect and adoration I felt for her when she told me she had never been with anyone. I felt like I was the luckiest man on earth. And I was. Don’t let these other girls try to influence you that guys want some experienced sexy hot number. They might for a night, but trust me, guys want their wives to be better than that. Because like Jake said, when it comes to being serious and settling down, YOU are what a man dreams he will find. These other girls have probably been used and hurt and probably a little envious, and deep down, they know that you are rare and special. You probably even make them feel a little guilty. You keep yourself for that lucky man and what the two of you will share will be just yours. I think it’s great to know there are still girls out there that have values. You are a rare breed. Don’t change.
As for where I’ve been, well, I’m dealing with a psycho and obout ready to call the police. I’m serious.
October 31, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Big Jake & Zach: Thanks so much for the encouragment. I get depressed sometimes thinking that saving myself for marriage is all for nothing. I’ve even had girls tell me “what if you never get married, arn’t you ever going to do it?” People treat you like your weird. I know I’m young, but I’m still old for being a virgin. But thanks to both of you. I guess there are some guys out there that would appreciate it. I hope I’m not 60 before I find one. And I hope the one I find isn’t 60, too.
Big Jake, I wasn’t going to ask this but I’ve been thinking about it since you posted. You said your son was 23……I know I sound like I’m chasing all the time and I don’t mean to, but, I can’t help but wonder. Is he anything like you?
Zach, sorry to hear you’re having problems with a nut. I’m assuming it’s Amy. Don’t wait too long to call the police if she’s doing threatening and harassing things. Get it documented. Sorry she turned out to be a gorgeous fruitcake. The wrapping is always nice, but it’s what’s in the package that has the value.
Love you guys.
October 31, 2006 at 8:24 pm
lovesamerica:
You wrote:
Big Jake, I wasn’t going to ask this but I’ve been thinking about it since you posted. You said your son was 23……I know I sound like I’m chasing all the time and I don’t mean to, but, I can’t help but wonder. Is he anything like you?
That’s a tough one. You have to understand I’m a little biased. Joe has a good heart and has overcome alot in his life. He was National Honor Society in High school and played 4 years of club soccer for Jersey FC. He is currently at Seton Hall finishing up his undergraduate degree.
Is he anything like me? Well ,he is alot like me and as he matures it becomes more apparent.
You would have to judge that for yourself.
September 17, 2021 at 5:45 pm
October 31, 2006 at 9:39 pm
Big Jake
Too bad for me…….I’ll never get to know about Joe…..I thought maybe I could snag you for a father-in-law…:)
November 1, 2006 at 12:32 am
lovesamerica :
Well, are you familiar with “My Space”? He is on that site.
November 1, 2006 at 12:02 pm
Big Jake: I have a lot of respect for your views and believe you are very knowledgable in several things. I almost wrote on here last night because I was overwhelmed with grief from the loss of my Mom, even though I know she’s at peace and in Heaven. My husband is loving and wonderful and he’s very tender about this with me. However, he is a Project Manager for a major company and has so many people problems and general stress at work that when he’s home I just want him to relax and not have to deal with a crying wife. I thought of you immediately and then talked myself out of writing. I’m sure it’s just part of the grieving process, but it doesn’t make things easier. Especially when I was just looking into her eyes and holding her hand only a week ago. However, I am torn about some things, and I would appreciate your views/opinions on different teachings. May I infringe on your time just a little bit? How do you feel about organized religion? I’ve felt that you might be Catholic, but I’m not sure. What are your views on tithing? I’m just trying to come to terms with some of organized religions teachings. Can you help me? I’d appreciate it. I value what you think.
DJ: You, too. You’re both so very smart and eloquent.
Thanks so much.
November 1, 2006 at 3:19 pm
Hi Angel,
Please feel free to let us help you through the grieving process. You are going through one of the toughest periods of your life . We are all here for you. It is going to take some time to adjust to the loss of your mother and you will never really get over it.
I know with my father,it took a year, counseling ,a release of anger, prayer, expression of regrets ,ultimate brokenness, searching for God,finding Him,and conversations with Jesus. I was reading the book “The Day Christ Died” and reflecting on the passages when I came to the part that described the day Jesus must have mourned the death of his foster father, St. Joseph. As he was truly God and truly man, he must have experienced all the emotions ,hurt and sense of loss I went through and you are going through right now. Then it struck me Jesus lost his father ,Joseph. I lost my father ,Joseph. I was feeling the same emotions he felt centuries ago. It was like He reached out through the ages ,felt my pain and held me in His embrace.
Our Lord came to this earth to conquer Death and that we may have Life and have it more abundantly. How many did he raise from the dead ?
It is Catholic teaching that He so hated death that He didn’t allow His Mother to suffer it and She was assumed into Heaven .
Although probably not unknown in the early Church, the earliest references to the Assumption of Mary appear around the later 4th century in some apocryphal gospels. Some of the Fathers believed that the Blessed Virgin Mary (BVM) was assumed while still alive, others that she was assumed after she had died. Both views are permitted under the infallible definition of Pius XII. St. John of Damascus relates a tradition where, during the Council of Chalcedon (AD 451), the emperor Marcian and his wife wished to find the body of Mary. He tells how all the apostles had seen her death, but her tomb was empty upon inspection.
Festivals commemorating the death of the Blessed Virgin Mary were common from the 5th century onwards, although the exact dates were never fixed. As the cult of Mary grew in the West, there was more pressure for the Catholic Church to define the exact nature of the Assumption. Pope Pius did this in 1950, in terms that are still rather general, and can be accepted by Western Catholics, Eastern Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox. (Source: Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church).
The Orthodox Church teaches that the Virgin Mary died a fully human death. In the apocryphal accounts, St. Thomas is not around when the event occurs, just as he was absent when Jesus was raised from the dead. He is three days late for Mary’s funeral. He requested to see the body of the Theotokos. When her grave was opened, her body was not found. This is not seen to be a resurrection like her Son is risen, but rather as the first fruits of our own bodily resurrection. In one of the most complicated of Christian Hymns (utilizing all 8 tones) the Orthodox are shown the story of her journeying to heaven as her funeral procession. The apostles act as her pall-bearers. As she arrives at heaven she is the first given the task of all the glorified saints, that of praying for us to her Son and our Lord. The Orthodox Church does not make a dogma of this point. As a part of the interior mysteries of the Church this is not a point of dogma or debate. Even as the faithful bury the Theotokos and see her translated to a life of intercession, we are reminded that it is through her that the Word was made flesh. (many thanks to Steven Clark for this information)
Protestants have rejected the Assumption of Mary (except for some, mostly Anglicans, who hold the opinion privately and devotionally), probably because it is not explicitly biblical. It is, however, an ancient belief certainly fitting the honor of the one chosen to bear the Son of God. It is also solidly within the biblical tradition of holy and unique individuals being taken bodily to heaven (like Elijah and Enoch). She who is “Mother of the Lord,” “full of grace,” and whom “all generations shall call blessed” is certainly worthy of this honor. Many Reformation denominations (like Anglicanism and Lutheranism) have set aside August 15th as a day commemorating the Blessed Virgin Mary, although without the explicit context of the Assumption.
Angel ,what you are going through is our lot in this life. Then comes Resurection and Life with our Lord in Heaven.
Please re-read my post #528
Yes ,I am a Roman Catholic and I go to Church every Sunday. I believe that the greatest tragedy that ever befell Christianity was the infighting between Christians over religion.
DJ mentions in his posts his philosophy of religion . He keeps it real simple (WWJD). It is too bad for all of us that our Christian leaders in the past did not follow this simple ,down to earth philosophy. That doesn’t mean we Christians of today can’t follow it . We have to.
I view organized religion(Christianity) as a language. The Bible is the orthodox Reference Book, the various denominations are the dialects of the same language.
As I stated before, I view all Christians as my brothers and sisters in Christ. I believe that before the end of the world ,there will be one Church with Jesus at its head.
I believe that the Catholic Church is currently under tremendous attack by demonic forces and I would implore all Christians to pray for us Catholics. Many will lose their faith ,many already have.
Regarding tithing , if you are able to tithe and in your heart you feel you want to tithe,
then by all means tithe. My Pastor has requested that we parishioners tithe. I am not able to make that commitment due to college tuition and everyday expenses. We support the Church as best we can , but no, we don’t tithe.
Regarding organized religious teaching, follow your heart, read the Bible ,try to live as Jesus would want you to live. But remember, God gave us the power to reason . Use that power in conjunction with the religious guidelines you were brought up with. Reach out with love to your fellow Christians. And don’t forget God’s chosen people ,the Jews . They have suffered much and are in need of our prayers as we are in need of their prayers.These are the people who are the decendents of our Lord’s earthly relatives and the relatives of the Apostles.
November 1, 2006 at 5:40 pm
Big Jake: Your words are so comforting. Thank you. I’m on my lunch hour now, sitting in my office. I prayed before I clicked on this website hoping you had responded. I’m feeling so sad today. But your words did touch my spirit, and I think God is using you to help me. We have such a wonderful Lord and I know He knows I’m hurting. As I said earlier, I prefer not to burden my husband with my sadness. I know he would be there for me, but he does have a high pressure job and I am concerned for him and his need to relax. It was a week yesterday the my Mom passed. When Mom was first diagnosed with brain cancer in June we were told she would not live much longer than two weeks. I took July and August off to take care of her and be with her during her last days. As time went on, I couldn’t afford to be off work without pay, as we, too, have a son in college and everyday expenses as well. After I returned to work, every night after dinner I would drive to Mom’s and stay with her until 8:30-9:00. This routine went on for months and I cherish every minute I spent with her as hard as it was watching her decline. Especially toward the end. To keep busy last night, I decided to make some apple crisp for the family. While I was peeling apples, I remembered all the times Mom and I would bake together while I was growing up, and all the wonderful pies and cookies we would make. She taught me so many wonderful things. I was all teary eyed and my husband came out to get something to drink. When I looked up he noticed, and just came over and kissed me on the cheek and hugged me. I could’ve fallen apart then, but I wouldn’t do that. That’s when I thought about you and all the love and wisdom you share when dealing with people.
I wasn’t raised a catholic. My husband was, but he wasn’t strict. When we met, I shared the gospel with him and he accepted Christ. We were married shortly after that. My husband had two daughters from a previous marriage, and God blessed us with a son. He’ll soon be 20 and he’s in the Pre-Law program at Pitt University. He was very close to his grandma. My husband and I attend a local church that has a wonderful young preacher. To be honest, I have always been intrigued by the catholic faith. I have heard of the Assumption of Mary, and was told that it was just that, an “assumption”. But the way you described it to me, it sounds so absolutely beautiful that I’m re-thinking things. She certainly was due that honor. As far as tithing goes, my husband and I have done it when we could afford to, but it has usually been difficult. He makes very good money and 10% is quite a bit. Not that God isn’t worth it, but it seems like I feel guilted into it. Sometimes, I feel like God will be mad at me if I don’t. Or if something bad happens, it’s because I’m not tithing. I know it sounds silly, but when you hear that enough, the thought plays with you. I’m just looking for answers. I love God, and I love my Lord Jesus, too. I do want to do service to Him and follow His will. I just get confused sometimes as to what church and what teaching is really accurate. I have read the Bible all my life and I never got the impression from the scriptures that God would be mad, but they teach that it’s something God expects you to do. And if He’s really first in your life, you just do it or it’s robbing Him. God has blessed me with a wonderful family. My husband’s daughters were so small when I married him and they have always loved me and treated me with respect. I couldn’t ask for a better son. I know you can’t out-give God and I want to do everything he wants me to. I just find that there’s so much corruptness in churches. I told Don (my husband) last night, that I’m sick of churches. There was an incident that happened at our church this weekend. There was a youth night out of town. One of our church members drove the kids to the event and they returned late. He took all the kids home, except for one teenage girl. Before he took her home he molested her on the bus. He told her not to say anything to her parents but she told them as soon as she got home and he was charged and realeased on bail. It’s been on the news and naturally our church is under attack. It makes me feel horrible. This man, who we’ve known for a long time, is the last person I would ever think would do that. I know his wife, and she must be devastated. Hearing that on the radio and reading it in the newspapers is a terrible thing. This man has two twin sons in their 20’s, the nicest boys, and I can just imagine what they’re going through. One of the girls I work with is married to a policeman that is involved with this. She told me in confidence this morning that her husband told her this man admitted he did it, too. It just makes me sick and I’m so tired of being involved with churches and there’s always something that makes me want to leave. I know it’s not the church’s fault, but they’re still liable because he was using the church bus. I just find it so upsetting.
Thanks so much for listening to me. My name is Karen. I don’t feel much like an Angel today.
November 1, 2006 at 5:41 pm
Big Jake: Your words are so comforting. Thank you. I’m on my lunch hour now, sitting in my office. I prayed before I clicked on this website hoping you had responded. I’m feeling so sad today. But your words did touch my spirit, and I think God is using you to help me. We have such a wonderful Lord and I know He knows I’m hurting. As I said earlier, I prefer not to burden my husband with my sadness. I know he would be there for me, but he does have a high pressure job and I am concerned for him and his need to relax. It was a week yesterday the my Mom passed. When Mom was first diagnosed with brain cancer in June we were told she would not live much longer than two weeks. I took July and August off to take care of her and be with her during her last days. As time went on, I couldn’t afford to be off work without pay, as we, too, have a son in college and everyday expenses as well. After I returned to work, every night after dinner I would drive to Mom’s and stay with her until 8:30-9:00. This routine went on for months and I cherish every minute I spent with her as hard as it was watching her decline. Especially toward the end. To keep busy last night, I decided to make some apple crisp for the family. While I was peeling apples, I remembered all the times Mom and I would bake together while I was growing up, and all the wonderful pies and cookies we would make. She taught me so many wonderful things. I was all teary eyed and my husband came out to get something to drink. When I looked up he noticed, and just came over and kissed me on the cheek and hugged me. I could’ve fallen apart then, but I wouldn’t do that. That’s when I thought about you and all the love and wisdom you share when dealing with people.
I wasn’t raised a catholic. My husband was, but he wasn’t strict. When we met, I shared the gospel with him and he accepted Christ. We were married shortly after that. My husband had two daughters from a previous marriage, and God blessed us with a son. He’ll soon be 20 and he’s in the Pre-Law program at Pitt University. He was very close to his grandma. My husband and I attend a local church that has a wonderful young preacher. To be honest, I have always been intrigued by the catholic faith. I have heard of the Assumption of Mary, and was told that it was just that, an “assumption”. But the way you described it to me, it sounds so absolutely beautiful that I’m re-thinking things. She certainly was due that honor. As far as tithing goes, my husband and I have done it when we could afford to, but it has usually been difficult. He makes very good money and 10% is quite a bit. Not that God isn’t worth it, but it seems like I feel guilted into it. Sometimes, I feel like God will be mad at me if I don’t. Or if something bad happens, it’s because I’m not tithing. I know it sounds silly, but when you hear that enough, the thought plays with you. I’m just looking for answers. I love God, and I love my Lord Jesus, too. I do want to do service to Him and follow His will. I just get confused sometimes as to what church and what teaching is really accurate. I have read the Bible all my life and I never got the impression from the scriptures that God would be mad, but they teach that it’s something God expects you to do. And if He’s really first in your life, you just do it or it’s robbing Him. God has blessed me with a wonderful family. My husband’s daughters were so small when I married him and they have always loved me and treated me with respect. I couldn’t ask for a better son. I know you can’t out-give God and I want to do everything he wants me to. I just find that there’s so much corruptness in churches. I told Don (my husband) last night, that I’m sick of churches. There was an incident that happened at our church this weekend. There was a youth night out of town. One of our church members drove the kids to the event and they returned late. He took all the kids home, except for one teenage girl. Before he took her home he molested her on the bus. He told her not to say anything to her parents but she told them as soon as she got home and he was charged and realeased on bail. It’s been on the news and naturally our church is under attack. It makes me feel horrible. This man, who we’ve known for a long time, is the last person I would ever think would do that. I know his wife, and she must be devastated. Hearing that on the radio and reading it in the newspapers is a terrible thing. This man has two twin sons in their 20’s, the nicest boys, and I can just imagine what they’re going through. One of the girls I work with is married to a policeman that is involved with this. She told me in confidence this morning that her husband told her this man admitted he did it, too. It just makes me sick and I’m so tired of being involved with churches and there’s always something that makes me want to leave. I know it’s not the church’s fault, but they’re still liable because he was using the church bus. I just find it so upsetting.
Thanks so much for listening to me. My name is Karen. I don’t feel much like an Angel today.
November 1, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Sorry for the double post..I was GOING to write to lovesamerica and put it on the wrong thing.
FORGIVE ME LOVESAMERICA….I’M ALL SCREWED UP TODAY!!
November 1, 2006 at 7:41 pm
Angel:
I know that we have had discussions regarding the afterlife and whether or not the departed are aware of us on earth . The following is from a Catholic point of view. It states that our beloved dead pray for us on earth just as we pray for them.
I remember being at work a month after my father passed . It was 4PM ,I took a break
and went to the lunch room . I started a fresh pot of coffee and started talking to my father . “How about a cup of coffee, Dad?”. The aroma of the coffee brought me back to the last time I sat with my Dad over a cup of coffee. It gave me a feeling of comfort. I turned it into a little ritual every day at 4PM.
It sounds like you had that kind of relationship with your Mom . Take some time each day for your own ritual. Spend that time telling your Mom about your day or ask her advice about something that troubles you.
I don’t know if she can hear you just as I don’t know how many angels fit on the head of a pin. When it comes down to it ,it doesn’t really matter, does it?
Keep Jesus in your heart and in your thoughts. He will never abandon you .He will comfort you. Your Mom is in His care . I am sure that in His mercy and love, her prayers for you are answered to this very moment. And I am sure that through Jesus, our beloved dead are still a part of our lives . They are happy for our triumphs and they pray for us in our times of need. They wouldn’t abandon us in life ,neither do they forget us after they die.
The Mystical Body of Christ
from various sources
Definitions
The Church, the Mystical Body, partly exists on this earth, and is called the Church Militant, because its members struggle against the world, the flesh and the devil.
The Church Suffering means the souls in Purgatory.
The Church Triumphant is the Church in heaven.
The unity and cooperation of the members of the Church on earth, in Purgatory, in Heaven is also called the Communion of Saints.
The Communion of Saints is the spiritual union which unites the faithful upon earth, the souls in Purgatory and the saints in Heaven in the one Mystical Body, the Church, of which Jesus Christ is the Head, and the participation of all in the one supernatural life. The saints by their closeness to God obtain of Him many graces and favors for the faithful on earth and the souls in Purgatory; the faithful on earth by their prayers and good works honor and love the saints, and succor the suffering souls by their prayers, and the holy sacrifice of the Mass. The Gospels on every page speak of the kingdom of God as a divine, spiritual kingdom established by Christ, and united in the bond of charity. It embraces all the elect on earth and in heaven, even the angels.
Pope Leo XIII, in his Encyclical on the Holy Eucharist Mirae caritatis May28, 1902, “For the Communion of Saints is nothing other than a mutual communication of help, expiation, prayers, benefits among the faithful; either (1) those who have already attained the Heavenly fatherland, or (2) are assigned to atoning fire or (3) are still in pilgrimage on earth; coalesced into one city, whose Head is Christ, whose form is charity.”
Mystical Body of the Church
The Church came into being when Christ died on the Cross, but it was formally inaugurated on Pentecost, when He sent the Holy Spirit as He had promised. Saint Paul speaks of all Christians as members of Christ, so that with Him, they form one Mystical Body (Cf. 1Corinthians 12:12-31; Colossians 1:18; 2:18-20; Ephesians 1:22-23; 3:19; 4:13). Saint Paul did not use the word Mystical. The term “mystical” was developed more recently to bring out the fact that this union is unique, there is no parallel to it. It is not the same as the union of a physical body, nor that of a business corporation. “Mystical” was first officially used in Boniface VIlI’s bull, Unam Sanctam, in unfolding the ideas put forth by Saint Paul.
The analogy linking a society to an organism is easily understood. In every society the constituent individuals are united, as are also the members of a body, to effect a common end; while the parts they severally play correspond to the functions of the bodily organs. They form a moral unity. This, of course, is true of the Church, but the Church has also a unity of a higher order; it is not merely a moral but a mystical body. This truth, that the Church is part of the Mystical Body of Christ, all its members being guided and directed by Christ the Head, is set forth by Saint Paul in various passages, more especially in Ephesians 4:4-13 (cf. John 15:5-8). The doctrine may be summarized as follows:
The members of the Church are bound together by a supernatural life communicated to them by Christ through the sacraments. Christ is the center and source of life to Whom all are united, and Who endows each one with gifts fitting him for his position in the body. These graces, through which each is equipped for his work, form it into an organized whole, whose parts are knit together as though by a system of ligaments and joints.
Through them, too, the Church has its growth and increase, growing in extension as it spreads through the world, and intensively as the individual Christian develops in himself the likeness of Christ.
In virtue of this union the Church is the fullness or complement (pleroma) of Christ (Ephesians 1:23). It forms one whole with Him; and the Apostle even speaks of the Church as “Christ” (1Corinthians 12:12).
This union between Head and members is conserved and nourished by the Holy Eucharist. Through this sacrament our incorporation into the Body of Christ is alike outwardly symbolized and inwardly actualized; “We being many are one bread, one body; for we all partake of the one bread” (1Corinthians 10:17).
In this depiction of the Final Judgement, Jesus sits in judgement of the world and is being handed a red-hot sword by the angel at the top-right of the painting.
One of the most thought-provoking passages in the Gospels is that of Our Lord telling about the final judgement. Men will be separated one from another as a shepherd separates sheep from goats. The Lord condemns those who did not give Him food when He was hungry, clothing when He was naked, or a visit when He was sick. He tells the nations “In so far as you did this to one of the least of these brothers, you did it to Me” (Matthew 25:40). Here Christ is identifying Himself with mankind a very real way. He says He is present in His brothers to such a degree that it is He Who is fed, clothed and visited. This is a powerful statement, and it sheds light on our understanding of Christ’s Mystical Body. Somehow Christ dwells in each individual person. This is seen again in the Acts of the Apostles where Saint Paul hears the words of Christ, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” (Acts 9:4-5). Paul had never known Our Lord personally. He was persecuting the Christians. Christ however stated that He Himself was being persecuted. Again, Christ is identifying Himself with men. He is joined to them, a part of them, or rather they are a part of Him.
We, who belong to the Church, are the living parts or members of Christ’s Body. “Christ is the head of the Church and saves the whole body” (Ephesians 5:23). Just as Christ is the vine, He is the Head of His body, giving life to the members and bringing about their salvation. Paul uses the analogy of the human body in showing that all parts must cooperate for the good of the Church: “Not you together are Christ’s body; but each of you is a different part of it” (1Corinthians 12:27). Some members are apostles, some teachers, but they all form one Body united in Christ.
One of the most important Pauline themes connecting with the mystical body is that Adam was a type of Christ. In Adam, the whole human race fell (1Corinthians 15:45). As Adam was the first head of mankind, so Christ became the new Head of the entire human race through His victory over Satan, death and sin. When the Second Divine Person became man, all of humanity was elevated. Christ, being both true God and true man manifested His position as Head of the whole human race. And by founding His Church on the Apostles and the Sacraments, He set up a means to incorporate people into His very life. The Church, then, is the extension of Christ in time, which reaches out to bring the Redemptive grace to all men.
Speaking of full membership in the Church, Pius XII, in his Encyclical on the Mystical Body, said it is the society of those who have been baptized, and who profess the faith of Christ, and who are governed by their bishops under the visible head, the Pope, the Bishop of Rome.
Scriptural Reference to the Mystical Body of Christ
Romans 12:4-5
For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
1 Corinthians 6:15,17
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? … But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 10:16-17
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.
1 Corinthians 12:12-14, 24-27
For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit. For the body does not consist of one member but of many…. But God has so composed the body … that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
Ephesians 1:22-23
[God the Father] has put all things under [Christ’s] feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him Who fills all in all.
Ephesians 2:11-16
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands– remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, Who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end.
Ephesians 4:4,11-13,15-16
There is one body and one Spirit… And His gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ… Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into Him Who is the head, into Christ, from Whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.
Ephesians 5:23,29-32
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, and is Himself its Savior…. For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, because we are members of His body. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church…
Colossians 1:18,24
He is the head of the body, the church… Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body, that is, the church…
Colossians 3:15
And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body.
Acts 9:1-5
But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Now as he journeyed he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed about him. And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus, Whom you are persecuting…”
Teachings of the Doctors of the Church
A study of the Incarnation could not be complete without reflecting on the doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ. The Second Divine Person took flesh at one point in history, as we read in the first chapter of Saint John: “And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14). Without the incarnation, there could be no Mystical Body. The one is the source, or prerequisite, for the other. The Mystical Body exists because the Word has become man, and God has willed that the Mystical Body be the extension, or prolongation, of the Incarnation and the Redemption.
According to Saint Irenaeus, the Body of Christ is what realizes the will of the Father in men and renews them from their old way into the new life of Christ. A Pauline theme which is developed by Irenaeus deals with Christ as the Second Adam. He writes: “We have offended God in the first Adam… but we are reconciled through the obedience even unto death of the Second Adam”. Adam was the head of the human race and caused its fall from grace, but Christ, the new Head, redeemed all mankind and takes His place as the Head of the Mystical Body.
Saint Cyprian also asserts the union of all faithful Christians in Christ, a union which is seen in the Church. He writes that. “The Church is one, with one head and one origin… ” (De Catholicae ecclesiae unitate, 5). This reminds us of Christ’s teaching that He is the vine for the branches, that is, the Head and origin of divine life. The writings of Saint Athanasius bring out a further understanding of the doctrine of the Mystical Body. He says that through the Incarnation and the Redemptive act on Calvary, all men are intimately connected with Christ. The whole human race is elevated and brought into a greater participation in the supernatural life. In his work against the Arians, Athanasius writes: “For just as the Word, having assumed a body, became man, so also, we men have been assumed to the Word through the Flesh, and are made inheritors of eternal life and bearers of God through Him”.
With the coming of Saint Augustine, a great advance was made in theology. Our understanding of the Mystical Body was deepened by his insights and writings. For example, he said that “what the soul is to the body of a man, the Holy Spirit is to Christ’s Body which is the Church.” This reaffirms the teachings of Saint Paul about the Church, but he goes further to state that the Holy Spirit is “the soul” of that Body. Here Augustine is speaking analogically. Both Paul and Augustine recognize that there are many analogous concepts between the human body and the Church. Based on Paul’s teaching, Augustine is able to develop our understanding of the Mystical Body and unfold its deeper implications. He also writes “All men are one man in Christ, and the unity of Christians constitutes but one man” (In Psalms 39, En. 2). Again, Paul’s teaching that many members make up one body is the foundation for this point made by Augustine.
Augustine makes an interesting statement regarding the whole Christ. He writes: “Our Lord Jesus Christ, like a whole and perfect man, is head and body … His body is the Church, not simply the Church that is here in this particular place, but both the Church that is here and the Church which extends over the whole earth; not simply the Church that is living today, but the whole race of saints, from Abel down to all those who will ever be born and believe in Christ until the end of the world, for all belong to one city. This city is the body of Christ… This is the whole Christ: Christ united with the Church.” Augustine uses the term “Church” in the broad sense. He refers to Her as that which extends through the entire world and that which includes all the just who ever lived and will ever live. He describes the Church as one man who reaches unto the end of time. Augustine stresses the reality that all the members of the Church make up one Body in Christ.
A few centuries later, the greatest theologian of the Church, Saint Thomas Aquinas, builds on the teachings of Augustine. His writings on the Mystical Body of Christ and the Church are so extensive that it will be possible to mention only a few here. He writes, “The head and members are as one mystical person, and therefore Christ’s satisfaction belongs to all the faithful and His members”. This question brings up a recurring theme found in the study of the Incarnate Word, that is, “solidarity.” Because of the vital intimacy between Christ and His members, there is a principle of solidarity present in the Mystical Body. This solidarity is a communion between two or more people. Saint Thomas develops the idea of solidarity (unity) between Christ and ourselves: “The members and the head are but one person. Therefore, since Christ is our Head by reason of His divinity and His superabundant fullness of grace, and since we are His members, His merit is not something outside us, but it is communicated to us or flows into us on account of the unity of the Mystical Body”.
[Communion of Saints]
November 1, 2006 at 8:04 pm
Angel:
I forgot to tell you , please have a discusion with your husband ,preferably on Saturday when he doesn’t have to go to work. You shouldn’t have to hold in your feelings around him. That stiff upper lip thing doesn’t work for long and your sorrow will come out in ways you would rather it wouldn’t .
A husband wants to comfort his wife when she is hurting. You have to let it out. Have a good cry .Let him share your feelings . It will bring you closer as husband and wife. That goes for the kids too. They are old enough to handle it and comfort you. They are hurting too. It will be good for them to express their grief with you .
Karen, you are an Angel.
November 1, 2006 at 8:06 pm
Big Jake: I’m still at work and don’t have time to really read all of your information, but I’m going to look at it again this evening when I’m home.
I did catch one thing, and that was Purgatory.
Do you believe in that? I think the catholic church believes in Limbo, for babies, too. Is that still part of their doctrine? If so, how do you feel about that?
My fear of not tithing – do you think God expects us to do it regardless of our financial situation? Every church I have attended has taught that you should do that no matter what.
It makes me feel funny.
Also, I have gone to catholic masses in the past and they rarely read from the Bible. To be honest and please don’t be hurt, the masses were fairly boring. But that was so many years ago. Have the masses changed from what I remember? You seem to quote scripture regularly, and I do think you know what you’re talking about. After I study what you wrote, I’ll respond again.
Thank you so much for your time and help.
November 1, 2006 at 8:56 pm
Angel:
Purgatory
The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). It notes that “this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1031).
The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.
Two Judgments
When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that “it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).
Augustine said, in The City of God, that “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment” (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: “I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59).
Money, Money, Money
One argument anti-Catholics often use to attack purgatory is the idea that the Catholic Church makes money from promulgating the doctrine. Without purgatory, the claim asserts, the Church would go broke. Any number of anti-Catholic books claim the Church owes the majority of its wealth to this doctrine. But the numbers just don’t add up.
When a Catholic requests a memorial Mass for the dead—that is, a Mass said for the benefit of someone in purgatory—it is customary to give the parish priest a stipend, on the principles that the laborer is worth his hire (Luke 10:7) and that those who preside at the altar share the altar’s offerings (1 Cor. 9:13–14). In the United States, a stipend is commonly around five dollars; but the indigent do not have to pay anything. A few people, of course, freely offer more. This money goes to the parish priest, and priests are only allowed to receive one such stipend per day. No one gets rich on five dollars a day, and certainly not the Church, which does not receive the money anyway.
But look at what happens on a Sunday. There are often hundreds of people at Mass. In a crowded parish, there may be thousands. Many families and individuals deposit five dollars or more into the collection basket; others deposit less. A few give much more. A parish might have four or five or six Masses on a Sunday. The total from the Sunday collections far surpasses the paltry amount received from the memorial Masses.
A Catholic “Invention”?
Fundamentalists may be fond of saying the Catholic Church “invented” the doctrine of purgatory to make money, but they have difficulty saying just when. Most professional anti-Catholics—the ones who make their living attacking “Romanism”—seem to place the blame on Pope Gregory the Great, who reigned from A.D. 590–604.
But that hardly accounts for the request of Monica, mother of Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven.
Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it. (See Catholic Answers’ Fathers Know Best tract The Existence of Purgatory for quotations from these and other early Christian sources.)
Why No Protests?
Whenever a date is set for the “invention” of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?
A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine’s truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?
They don’t exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that “true believers” in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.
It is no wonder, then, that those who deny the existence of purgatory tend to touch upon only briefly the history of the belief. They prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell.
Some have speculated that the limbo of the Fathers is the same as purgatory. This may or may not be the case. However, even if the limbo of the Fathers is not purgatory, its existence shows that a temporary, intermediate state is not contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way. If the limbo of the Fathers was purgatory, then this one verse directly teaches the existence of purgatory. If the limbo of the Fathers was a different temporary state, then the Bible at least says such a state can exist. It proves there can be more than just heaven and hell.
“Purgatory Not in Scripture”
Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, “The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture.” This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.
Christ refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.
Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: “In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.
Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.
Why Go To Purgatory?
Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for “nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, “unclean.” Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.
Fundamentalists claim, as an article in Jimmy Swaggart’s magazine, The Evangelist, put it, that “Scripture clearly reveals that all the demands of divine justice on the sinner have been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It also reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. The advocates of a purgatory (and the necessity of prayer for the dead) say, in effect, that the redemption of Christ was incomplete. . . . It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man.”
It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.
No Contradiction
The Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because “[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness” (Heb. 12:11).
Nothing Unclean
Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely “covered,” if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.
Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven.” From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if “covered,” remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or “purged” of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us “to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit.” Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive “for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”
NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004
IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
November 1, 2006 at 8:58 pm
Catholic idea of limbo likely kaput
October 6, 2006
Email this Print this BY PEGGY WALSH-SARNECKI
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER
Pope Benedict XVI could announce as early as today that the Catholic Church is abandoning the ancient concept of limbo, a way station for babies barred from heaven because they were not baptized, according to unconfirmed reports circulating Thursday in Europe and elsewhere.
“It’s an idea whose time has passed,” the Rev. Thomas Reese, a Vatican expert and senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University in Washington, D.C., told the Free Press on Thursday.
According to the reports, a Vatican commission of theologians that has been studying the issue is completing its work, and the pope is expected to formally accept its finding — that unbaptized babies are not excluded from heaven — at a mass at the Vatican.
The concept of limbo, a belief at times widely held by Catholics, was never part of the church’s formal doctrine. Locally, some doubted there would be a formal announcement of a change today.
“I don’t even know if the report of the commission will be made public,” said Bishop Earl Boyea, auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Detroit. “I don’t believe there is any announcement to be made.”
Boyea said limbo can be traced to a 13th-Century attempt to reconcile two different concepts from the Bible and ancient writings: that people must be baptized to be saved and that God wants all people to be saved. The solution was to place the unbaptized in limbo, a place of joy and peace — but not quite heaven.
Lifelong Catholic Rita Nagy of Trenton would approve the change. “I think it’s a more loving way of teaching about God,” Nagy said.
Vatican watchers and theologians are unlikely to be surprised by such a finding by the 30-member international theological commission, led by Archbishop William Levada, an American. Before becoming pope, Benedict had noted that limbo was not part of the church’s doctrine and he’d be in favor of dropping it.
The Rev. Richard McBrien, a University of Notre Dame theologian, called the limbo debate “much ado about nothing.”
“Relatively few Catholics today even know what limbo is,” he said in an e-mail Thursday.
Marilyn Grunow of Grosse Pointe Farms said her two daughters, 1995 and 1997 high school graduates, were not taught the concept of limbo in their 12 years of Catholic schooling.
“People today do not have the same rigid idea of good and evil that we were sometimes taught as children,” Grunow said. “A loving God would not deprive innocent babies of heaven simply because they were not baptized.”
Contact PEGGY WALSH-SARNECKI at 586-469-4681.
November 1, 2006 at 9:08 pm
Must Catholics give ten percent of their income in tithe?
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Some Protestants feel compelled to give 10% of their income. As a Catholic, I have never been taught to do this. The subject came up recently because my daughter is about to start a new job and one of her friends told her she should give 10% of her paycheck to the Church. Incidentally, she will be making a gross of $7.00 per hour and has a 2-year-old daughter to provide for.
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Tithe was a requirement of the ancient Israelites under the Old Law. Catholics are no longer bound to the Old Law because of Jesus death on the cross. The Church, with its authority from Christ, requires Catholics to give to the support of the Church according to their means (and not just monetary means but also means of time and talent). If your daughter gives what she is able to give, she is meeting her obligation to support the Church. And, if she needs to, she could either supplement or substitute monetary offerings with offerings of time and talent instead.
Recommended reading:
Catholic Answers Guide to Family Finances by Philip Lenahan
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Tithes
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(Anglo-Saxon teotha, a tenth).
Generally defined as “the tenth part of the increase arising from the profits of land and stock, allotted to the clergy for their support or devoted to religious or charitable uses”. A more radical definition is “the tenth part of all fruits and profits justly acquired, owed to God in recognition of his supreme dominion over man, and to be paid to the ministers of the church”.
The custom of giving tithes reaches back into unknown antiquity. It is mentioned in Genesis 14, without anything to indicate that it was something newly instituted. Just as Abraham is there represented as offering tithes of the spoils of the enemy to the royal priest, Melchisedech, so in Genesis 28, Jacob is recorded as giving a tithe of all his possessions to the Lord. Under the Mosaic Law the payment of tithes was made obligatory. The Hebrews are commanded to offer to God the tenth part of the produce of the fields, of the fruits of the trees, and the firstborn of oxen and of sheep (Leviticus 27:30; Deuteronomy 14:22). In Deuteronomy there is a mention not only of an annual tithe, but also of a full tithe to be paid once every three years. While it was to God Himself that the tithes had to be paid, yet we read (Numbers 18:21) that He transfers them to His sacred ministers: “I have given to the sons of Levi all the tithes of Israel for a possession, for the ministry wherewith they serve me in the tabernacle of the covenant.” In paying the tithe, the Hebrews divided the annual harvest into ten parts, one of which was given to the Levites after the first-fruits had been subtracted. This was partitioned by them among the priests. The remainder of the harvest was then divided into ten new parts, and a second tithe was carried by the head of the household to the sanctuary to serve as a sacred feast for his family and the Levites.
If the journey to the temple was unusually long, money could be substituted for the offering in kind. At the triennial tithe, a third decimation was made and a tenth part was consumed at home by the householder with his family, the Levites, strangers, and the poor. This triennial year was called the year of tithes (Deuteronomy 26:12). As the tithes were the main support of the priests, it was later ordained that the offerings should be stored in the temple (2 Chronicles 31:11). It is to be noted that the custom of paying sacred tithes was not peculiar to the Israelites, but common to all ancient peoples. In Lydia a tithe of cattle was offered to the gods; the Arabians paid a tithe of incense to the god Sabis; and the Carthaginians brought tithes to Melkarth, the god of Tyre. The explanation of why the tenth part should have been chosen among so many different peoples is said to be (apart from a common primitive revelation) that mystical signification of the number ten, viz., that it signifies totality, for it contains all the numbers that make up the numerical system, and indeed all imaginable series of numbers, and so it represents all kinds of property, which is a gift of God. All species of property were consequently reckoned in decades, and by consecrating one of these parts to God, the proprietor recognized the Source of his goods. However, the payment of tithes was also a civil custom. They were payable to the Hebrew kings and to the rulers of Babylon, and they are mentioned among the Persians, Greeks, Romans, and later the Mohammedans.
In the Christian Church, as those who serve the altar should live by the altar (1 Corinthians 9:13), provision of some kind had necessarily to be made for the sacred ministers. In the beginning this was supplied by the spontaneous offerings of the faithful. In the course of time, however, as the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would insure the proper and permanent support of the clergy. The payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law, and early writers speak of it as a divine ordinance and an obligation of conscience. The earliest positive legislation on the subject seems to be contained in the letter of the bishops assembled at Tours in 567 and the canons of the Council of Maçon in 585. In course of time, we find the payment of tithes made obligatory by ecclesiastical enactments in all the countries of christendom. The Church looked on this payment as “of divine law, since tithes were instituted not by man but by the Lord Himself” (C. 14, X de decim. III, 30). As regards the civil power, the Christian Roman emperors granted the right to churches of retaining a portion of the produce of certain lands, but the earliest instance of the enforcement of the payment of ecclesiastical tithes by civil law is to be found in the capitularies of Charlemagne, at the end of the eighth century. English law very early recognized the tithe, as in the reigns of Athelstan, Edgar, and Canute before the Norman Conquest. In English statute law proper, however, the first mention of tithes is to be found in the Statute of Westminister of 1285. Tithes are of three kinds: predial, or that derived from the annual crops; mixed, or what arises from things nourished by the land, as cattle, milk, cheese, wool; and personal or the result of industry or occupation. Predial tithes were generally called great tithes, and mixed and personal tithes, small tithes. Natural substances having no annual increase are not tithable, nor are wild animals. When property is inherited or donated, it is not subject to the law of tithes, but its natural increase is. There are many exempted from the paying of tithes: spiritual corporations, the owners of uncultivated lands, those who have acquired lawful prescription, or have obtained a legal renunciation, or received a privilege from the pope.
At first, the tithe was payable to the bishop, but later the right passed by common law to parish priests. Abuses soon crept in. The right to receive tithes was granted to princes and nobles, even hereditarily, by ecclesiastics in return for protection or eminent services, and this species of impropriation became so intolerable that the Third Council of Lateran (1179) decreed that no alienation of tithes to laymen was permissible without the consent of the pope. In the time of Gregory VIII, a so-called Saladin tithe was instituted, which was payable by all who did not take part personally in the crusade to recover the Holy Land. At the present time, in most countries where some species of tithes still exist, as in England (for the Established Church), in Austria, and Germany, the payment has been changed into a rent-charge. In English-speaking countries generally, as far as Catholics are concerned, the clergy receive no tithes. As a consequence, other means have had to be adopted to support the clergy and maintain the ecclesiastical institutions (see CHURCH MAINTENANCE), and to substitute other equivalent payments in lieu of tithes. Soglia (Institut, Canon, II, 12) says “The law of tithes can never be abrogated by prescription or custom, if the ministers of the Church have no suitable and sufficient provision from other sources; because then the natural and divine law, which can neither be abrogated not antiquate, commands that the tithe be paid.” In some parts of Canada, the tithe is still recognized by civil law, and the Fourth Council of Quebec (1868) declared that its payment is binding in conscience of the faithful
November 2, 2006 at 12:00 am
Angel:
you wrote:
Also, I have gone to catholic masses in the past and they rarely read from the Bible. To be honest and please don’t be hurt, the masses were fairly boring. But that was so many years ago. Have the masses changed from what I remember? You seem to quote scripture regularly, and I do think you know what you’re talking about.”
Well ,I remember Mass being said in Latin when I was 7 years old. There was something spiritual about the Gregorian chant so much so that the Monks made a compilation of Gregorian chant hymnsin the 1990’s and it was a top selling album with the teen -under 40 market.
I must confess to falling asleep alot as a kid and I even stopped going to church for a while in my mid to late twenties.
As to reading the scriptures, it was not really emphasized as far as I can recall. For me, I felt something was lacking especially watching Billy Grahmn or some of the other ministers on TV.I started reading the Bible but could never get into it. I was determined to read it cover to cover . I would never get past Genesis. I wasn’t ready. When my father passed away , that’s when I began in ernest. I was surprised ,how much of Catholic teaching was scriptural ,but it really is as you can see for yourself.
The Mass changed alot from 1963-on. Folk Masses ,masses in the common language (not Latin)etc. In the late 1980-1990’s Charismatic masses and healing masses were common.
The Mass always consisted of a basic formula which included a reading from the Old Testanment (the Epistle) and a reading from the New Testament (the Gospel) the Priest’s homily (a discussion of the days Gospel and how it applies to our lives.THE OFERATORY and presentation of the gifts,the Eucharist (Holy Communion) and the Blessing.
November 2, 2006 at 3:03 pm
Big Jake: I had a company dinner to attend last evening and I didn’t get home until 7:30, so I didn’t have a lot of time to spend reading all of the information. I plan to study it more deeply over the next couple of days.
I hope you know anything I say is strictly from a questioning standpoint, and I don’t want you to think I’m attacking your religion or your beiefs. I’m just looking for resolve.
I skimmed over some of what you wrote and it seems as if you (not YOU, but a person) would never really know where you stood with the Lord. In Romans 8:1, it says “there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus”. To me, that means because I have accepted Christ as my saviour, HE has paid in full my sin debt. He died in my place. In the Old Testament, Isaiah 1:18 says “Come now, and let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow.” I believe Jesus had to die for us because no matter what we did, or hard we tried, we can never be perfect or “good enough” to enter God’s presence. But since we have received Christ, he looks at us with the covering of Christ. He SEES Christ in us, and that makes us holy before Him. Does that make sense to you? I believe our good works on Earth are a RESULT of our relationship with Jesus Christ. I don’t believe we have to earn our salvation, or work to keep it, because we have that in Christ. I don’t think we, as christians, are judged for our sins on judgement day, but I think we will be judged and rewarded for our service. Basically, what did we do for Christ once we knew spiritually what He did for us personally. I believe God rewards the Heart and Service of His child. The sins were taken care of by Christ. I guess I feel that if there is anything we can do on our own to earn salvation there would have been no reason for Christ to die such a horrible death.
I’m going to study more in depth all of what you wrote and I hope I haven’t spoken too soon. Please, understand, that I am very tired of organized religion and I know God wants us to fellowship with other believers. You are helping me a lot and I do appreciate it.
Thanks.
November 3, 2006 at 2:26 am
Angel,
I didn’t forget about you. I was a bit under the weather the past few days and didn’t quite feel up to sitting at the computer.
First, my deepest sympathy on the passing of your mother. It took me months to get over it when my Mom passed on. Big Jake’s right, do not hold it in. Might I suggest that you be upfront and honest with your husband and say “This has been rough on me and I need a good cry on an understanding shoulder to help me put it aside.” If he’s half the man I think he is, he’ll accommodate. He may not understand, but he’ll be there for you in that capacity.
OK, here’s my two-cents worth on religion. I, too, am, shall we say, disenchanted with organized religion. I haven’t been to church in several years mainly because Paula is picky about the preacher she listens to. I could care less. If the person knows the bible and tranlates it to a message pertinent to the times, then I will pay attention. You learn something from every interaction with people whether you realize it or not.
When we lived in Tyler, TX, there was a HUGE church just a few blocks from our house. We went to another smaller church of a different denomination. The preacher of our church jokingly referred to the big church as “Six Flags Over Jesus.” I don’t like big. It’s too impersonal. I like a small “country church” where everyone knows everybody. Now THAT’S networking!
As I mentioned before, my beliefs didn’t form until my late 20s and I started attending church during my first divorce. At the time I needed the support of a congregation. As I grew stronger I felt I could stand on my own, so to speak, and went to church less. I still pray often and feel God’s greatest cathedral is the great outdoors, very similar to Hipshot Percussion’s views. I feel closer to God while in nature than I do around most of my fellow man.
Church, in my humble opinion, is for folks that aren’t as strong as they would like to be. The church family can act as an extended family with support and guidance. Everyone should find a small group and “move up” to a bigger church if so desired. And to heck with dressing up. If God was concerned with the way we dressed during worship, then I think it would have been stated in the scriptures. Yes, there is a certain standard of dress, but there’s no need to show off. Be respectful, but comfortable. You’re going to a meeting, not a party.
Tithing is good if the church is small and you know where the money is spent. More often than not the tithe monies go into a national “pot” and is doled out as the ministry sees fit. And I agree with Big Jake that it was more of an Old Testament matter. If you can’t support monetarily, do it with you time. Help is always needed in the kitchen, childcare room, home ministry, etc. God knows what you can afford and if you don’t think it’s enough, then perhaps it isn’t. But remember the story of “The Widow’s Mite.” If it’s your intention to do what you can with what you have, God will take it into account.
I try (key word) to do what I think Jesus would do in our modern society. Change, adapt, and overcome, as we say in the military. I don’t consider myself a sheep. I’m more of a ram in the flock. I definitely act as the “Alpha Male” here at home. That is, when Paula lets me. ; ) We both “wear the pants” in this household. We both know what needs to be done to “keep the home fires burning” if either of us are away. And we know that God dwells here and we cherish that knowledge. We may not be “on fire” as Christians should be, but we will “spontaneously combust” when asked about our religious beliefs. I don’t like folks that shove their doctrine(s) down another’s throat. Ask me and I will witness to you, tell stories about my faith and journies, and generally “talk the ears off of a brass bull” if given the chance. Yep, Texan, through and through! We LOVE to talk!
Readers Digest version: Church is good in the amount that YOU need. Don’t try to do too much, do what you can. Give what you can, but know where your gift is going. Find your comfort zone and invite others in to visit; they might like it there, too. Follow your heart. I do and it hasn’t lead me astray because I know that God and His love is in there as a moral compass.
Like I said to Big Jake, WWJD augmented with the KISS rule.
As Mr. Scott said in one of the Star Trek movies, “The fancier th’ plummin’, th’ easier it tis t’ stop it up.” I know. That’s me. I get too serious and I have to throw in some humor. I guess it’s that Libra-balance thingie!
November 3, 2006 at 4:35 am
Sanctification – Biblical Meaning
Sanctification is a biblical doctrine that is emphasized a great deal in Christian teaching. Yet despite its importance, it is often perceived as a religious notion too complex to comprehend. Though sanctification may at first seem to be a foreign concept, it is one of the greatest things that has and is happening to every believer in Jesus Christ. Here we will explore the basic biblical doctrine of sanctification and discuss the key role it plays in a Christian’s spiritual growth.
Sanctification comes from the verb sanctify. Sanctify originates from the Greek word hagiazo, which means to be “separate” or to be “set apart.” In the Bible, sanctification generally relates to a sovereign act of God whereby He “sets apart” a person, place, or thing in order that His purposes may be accomplished. In the book of Exodus, God sanctifies a place of worship. “And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by My glory,” says Exodus 29:43. Even a day can be sanctified as seen in Genesis 2:3 where the seventh day is “set apart” as a holy day of rest. “Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.”
Similarly, when a person is sanctified he or she is being set apart by God for a specific divine purpose. The very moment we are saved in Christ we are also immediately sanctified and begin the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. As God’s children we are “set apart” from that moment to carry out His divine purposes unto eternity. Hebrews 10:14 says, “For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.” Are you set apart for God?
Sanctification – Different Than Salvation
It is important to differentiate between justification and sanctification. Justification is another word for salvation. Jesus gave his life on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. His blood washes away our sins and frees us from an eternity of suffering and condemnation. Believers are saved because of what Christ has already done. We can do nothing to earn salvation, it is the gift given to every child of God regardless of race, age, maturity, or merit. Sanctification occurs as a result of salvation. At the moment of conversion, the Holy Spirit enters our life. We are no longer held hostage by death, but are free to live the life God desires for us. We are thus sanctified simply because of our standing as lost souls saved by grace.
Sanctification – A Continuing Process
Sanctification does not stop with salvation, but rather it is a progressive process that continues in a Christian’s life. Unlike the things and places that are sanctified by God in the Bible, people have the capacity to sin. Even though we have been “set apart” as God’s children, we continue to behave in ways that are contrary. As Christians, we realize shortly after we have been saved that there is a new inner battle being waged within us – a battle between our old sin-lead nature and new Spirit-lead nature. Paul in Galatians best describes this inner struggle in Galatians 5:17: “For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.”
Like Paul, our heart’s desire is to please and obey God, but our flesh is weak making sin difficult to resist. Yet, it is in our continual struggle with sin and obedience to God that sanctification does its work.
But what is the work of sanctification? What does it practically mean to be “set apart”? Sanctification can be described as an inward spiritual process whereby God brings about holiness and change in the life of a Christian by means of the Holy Spirit. The effects of living in a fallen world have harmed everybody differently. We all face different issues, struggle with sin, and past hurts of varying degrees, hindering our ability to live the life God desires for us. Once we accept Jesus Christ into our lives, the Holy Spirit enters our life to start a transformation process (progressive sanctification). He convicts us on areas that need to be changed, helping us to grow in holiness. We begin to view the world, people, and personal difficulties from a more biblical perspective. Our choices begin to be motivated by love and truth and not selfishness. For instance, we may have misplaced our confidence and security on beauty, wealth, and materialism, but God may ordain difficult circumstances to liberate us from these growth-hindering snares. The transformation process may be painful, but it is always motivated by God’s love for us. Further, God promises in His Word to not give us more than we are able to handle (1 Corinthians 10:13).
This is the working process of sanctification is the life of every believer. Though the process is personal for each individual, the end goal is to prevent sin and produce spiritual growth. Note that sanctification has nothing to do with living in sinless perfection. We will never be sinless in this life. In fact, the Bible warns against such false teachings in 1 John 1:8: “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
Sanctification is not about trying to be sinless in order to earn the favor of God. Rather, sanctification is for our own benefit. God commands us to pursue sanctification so that through it we may be blessed
Sanctification – A Christian Responsibility
Sanctification is one of the most challenging aspects of the Christian walk. Our natural tendency is to embrace sin, yet God in His divine wisdom has chosen to give us the responsibility of working out our own sanctification. “Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work,” says 2 Timothy 2:21.
But how do we pursue sanctification? How are we personally responsible? Lovingly, God has sent His Holy Spirit and His written Word, the Bible, to guide us. Though every person’s sanctification is unique and personal, there are common disciplines in the pursuit of sanctification that are unchanging.
Sanctification – Practical Steps
Prayer is of utmost importance. When we are suffering or facing temptation, our mind and body are weak. Satan knows this and tries to take advantage of us. When we pray, we are in spiritual union with God. Not only will prayer comfort us in our hardship, but it will also give us the strength to overcome sin. Through prayer, we are also more sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
God has also given us the written Word – the Bible. The Bible is not merely a history book, but its words have the power to sanctify us. When Satan tempted Jesus in Matthew 4, Jesus used the Word of God to overcome temptation. “But He answered and said, ‘It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God'” (Matthew 4:4).
God’s Word also has the power to transform our mind, convict, and bring to light the darkness that is within our hearts. It is the instrument which God uses to develop in us knowledge, faith, and personal holiness; all of which are essential elements of sanctification. “For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart” (Hebrews 4:12). Whether by studying or listening to teaching, the sanctifying work of God’s Word is enormous to a believer who recognizes its truth and power.
Believers are also sanctified in worship. True fervent worship is what God desires from His people. When our worship is genuine, it transforms our hearts and brings us into close union with God. John 4:23 says, “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.”
Additionally, before Jesus ascended into heaven he tells the disciples to wait in Jerusalem for a gift God will send (Acts 1). This is the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our ultimate helper and sanctifier. When we yield to His leading, He has the power to help us resist sin and make positive change. “I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh” (Galatians 5:16).
When we sin and ignore the Holy Spirit’s leading, we break fellowship with the Him, thereby cutting off the life-changing power. 1 Thessalonians 5:19 commands us: “Do not quench the Spirit.”
Sanctification – Key to Spiritual Growth
Sanctification is both a matter of position and progression. We are sanctified because Jesus Christ has saved us and yet sanctification continues to work within to transform us unto the likeness of Christ. Sanctification is the responsibility of every believer in Christ. When we choose to pursue sanctification in our life, positive growth occurs. The pursuit of it involves the surrender of the body and the will to the leading of the Holy Spirit. It takes time and is a working progress that cannot be hurried. Like a newborn baby that gradually matures unto adulthood, so is the work of sanctification in the life of a new believer. The work of sanctification will ultimately be completed in every believer’s life when Jesus Christ returns. This is the hope of every Christian.
Paul puts it best in his epistle to the Thessalonians: “Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
November 3, 2006 at 9:08 am
Angel :
You wrote:
“I believe our good works on Earth are a RESULT of our relationship with Jesus Christ. I don’t believe we have to earn our salvation, or work to keep it, because we have that in Christ. I don’t think we, as christians, are judged for our sins on judgement day, but I think we will be judged and rewarded for our service. Basically, what did we do for Christ once we knew spiritually what He did for us personally. I believe God rewards the Heart and Service of His child. The sins were taken care of by Christ. I guess I feel that if there is anything we can do on our own to earn salvation there would have been no reason for Christ to die such a horrible death.”
I agree 100% with you. I have searched for the answer regarding the meaning of the concept of purgatory.
I will try to explain what I believe it means .
Jesus, by His death on the cross has paid the price for our salvation . There is nothing more that we need to do except believe in Him.
From the previous post on sanctification-
Sanctification – Different Than Salvation
It is important to differentiate between justification and sanctification. Justification is another word for salvation. Jesus gave his life on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. His blood washes away our sins and frees us from an eternity of suffering and condemnation. Believers are saved because of what Christ has already done. We can do nothing to earn salvation, it is the gift given to every child of God regardless of race, age, maturity, or merit. Sanctification occurs as a result of salvation. At the moment of conversion, the Holy Spirit enters our life. We are no longer held hostage by death, but are free to live the life God desires for us. We are thus sanctified simply because of our standing as lost souls saved by grace.
As stated above sanctification is a process by which the Holy Spirit transforms us unto the likeness of Christ.
Recall the image of Pentecost where the Holy Spirit decends upon the Apostles represented as what? Tongues of Fire. They then “burned with the Spirit” and went out to preach the Gospel.
I see Purgatory as the completion of the process of Sanctification after we are dead. I personally do not see it as a place of suffering except for the fact that it is a pause before we are fully allowed into union with God in Heaven.
To simplify , I lift weights as part of my exercise program . While lifting , I experience fatigue and as the lactic acid builds up in my muscles , I experience a burning pain . This suffering is a necessary part of building muscle. I welcome the “burn” as it means I am getting the proper amount of stress during my workout and I am getting closer to my goal.
The same thing happens in our spiritual life during the process of sanctification as the Holy Spirit works within us. Following Christ is to struggle against the world ,the flesh and the devil. As we do this and are strengthened by the Holy Spirit,we are sanctified. The struggle is painful. Self denial,fasting, physical injury,sickness, mourning the loss of a loved one are all sanctifying events(brokenness)that can bring us closer to our Lord.
November 3, 2006 at 1:51 pm
DJ: Thank you so much for your input. I can’t say alot right now because I’m working, but I wanted to acknowledge both you and Big Jake for the wealth of information and thoughts. I will be studying everything this weekend. DJ, just so you know, my husband is wonderful, and he’s always there for me. If I went to him and wanted to cry he’d stop everything and comfort me. I hold back out of love and concern for him. I did a lot of crying last week with him and he was off of work with me. I just want to spare him grieving with me. As I said previously, I do get in moods where I think a lot about my Mom. I share some of it with him, but I don’t want to dwell on it. That’s why I get on the computer and talk things out. People can answer or respond if they feel like it or not, and it’s the best of both worlds to me right now. I can express myself and get it out, and all the responses are comforting. I appreciate you both so much. You both have qualities similar to my husband. I would like to share the website of our church with you so you could listen to our Pastor, because you and from what you said about what your wife likes in a sermon, I’m 100% positive Mrs. DJ would enjoy it. I don’t know if sharing the website is a smart thing to do since it has the church’s address on it, and this website is open to everyone. People are always warning me about sharing too muuch information about myself on sites like this because it’s not private and that does make me a little nervous, but I would do it if you thought it would be okay. You two have been such a blessing.
Thank You
November 4, 2006 at 1:32 pm
Hello everyone. Thought I’d check in and see what’s happening, if anything. Sorry Angel, you’re going through this. Believe me, I know how hard it is. I’m thinking of you. We all seem to be looking for answers to something on here.
I’ve been busy with Amy. She destroyed some of my property a few weeks ago in a fit of rage. When I came home one day she was there, going crazy. I was going to call the police and press charges, but I managed to calm her down and I eventually talked her into getting some counselling. AGainst my better judgement I did let her stay with me a few days. I’ve been going to couselling with her. I feel really bad for her. She lied to me about a lot of things and now the truth is out. She has promised to pay for the damages. After I realized some of things she’s gone through, I wasn’t going to take her money, but the counsellor told me I should. So, we’ll see. It’s made me do a lot of thinking and it’s opened my eyes to things. I do think now that’s she’s being honest and with me knowing the truth about her, I understand some of things she’s done. I still don’t have any love feelings for her, but I feel compassion and she does need a friend.
Anyway, I’m working with the counsellor and whatever he tells me to do I’ll do.
Hope you’re all doing fine.
November 4, 2006 at 3:08 pm
Zach,
Good to hear from you. Tread carefully. This is the second violent outburst you’ve told us about. It is good Amy is going for counselling.
Was the destructive behavior a ploy to get you to let her stay with you for a few days?
What about her daughter? Did she see this?
Make sure you can make the emotional investment necessary befor you commit yourself .
You are in our prayers .
November 4, 2006 at 5:37 pm
Big Jake, thanks for the advice. The behavior was because I had told her a few weeks ago I was all done with her and it was over for me and I wasn’t interested in seeing her anymore or getting married any time soon. You know, all that kind of stuff. She sent me a long 7 page letter telling me how much she loved me and we could make it work if I’d just give her another chance and she was leaving me the same kind of messages on my telephone every day. I never responded to any of it. I figured if I ignored her she would go away. She started to call the Fire Dept. trying to get a hold of me. She was also in my driveway a few times when I came home from work and was crying and begging and generally making me feel like a jerk. I’d just tell her it was over and to go home and I’d go in the house. She would leave. I just wanted her to go on with her life and leave me alone. When I came home this last time, she was smashing out some of the windows in my garage, she had dinged up one of the garage doors and had busted up some of the planter boxes I had built on the patio. She was working on the garage windows when I pulled down the driveway and I got out of the truck and when she saw me she picked up a large rock, ran over to the truck before I could catch her and smashed it into the side of my truck. Then she came after me and started slapping me in the face and pounding on my chest, but I just held her until she stopped and then she just kind of collapsed and cried and cried and CRIED. Here she is doing this crazy stuff and telling me the whole time how much she loves me. I was so pissed I wanted to bash her but I knew that I’d get in trouble if I did. I carried her into the house and I screamed at her that I was calling the f’n cops and she was going to pay for every f’n thing. (Not much of a gentlemen anymore, huh?) To make a long story short, my son was at my sister’s so I just called her (my sis) and asked her if he could stay there for awhile. Then Amy, crying and begging the whole time and saying she was sorry confessed that there never was a husband and some guy she loved had gotten her pregnant with her daughter and took off and she doesn’t even know where he is. She has no family and one of her best friends she met in college lived here so she just decided to move here to start a new life. There’s a lot more to it, but she did tell me if I sent her away that day that she would kill herself and she said if I’d let her stay she’d do anything I wanted her to. So, I said she needed counselling and she agreed to get it but then begged me to go with her. Her daughter was at her friend’s house. This friend doesn’t offer much information, either. I know I’m probably a sucker and a sap but I didn’t know what to do. She has gone from playing the no sex until marriage game, to if you want me I’m here, I’m ready and I’m more than willing. I HAVEN’T AND I WON’T. DON’T WANT TO. NO DESIRE. SHE DOES NOTHING FOR ME ANYMORE. She is home at her place now. I have several friends on the police force and I have talked to them about it, and she knows that. I don’t want to file a complaint or press charges. If she pays me for the truck damage and leaves me alone, I’ll settle for that. I did take pictures and I can fix any damage around the house myself. The truck estimate was $1200.00. Pisses me off everytime I look at it. I don’t know what to do. I’m just letting the counsellor advise me. She’s a nut, I know that. I learned a big lesson from this. Remember that guy that wrote in one time and said all women aren’t loving sex kittens? It was something like that and I don’t have time to look for it. Well, he definitely knows what he’s talking about. It’s no wonder he ended up decking the bitch he was married to. I sure wanted deck Amy. If that would’ve been a man I would’ve beaten the shit out of him. Women like this provoke you and bring it on themselves. I’ve never had to deal with anything like this. It makes me nervous because she’s a woman. A scarey one. I told you I was afraid of her once and I really am. I’ve always said you’re a smart guy, so let me know how you’d handle it. Be kind.
November 5, 2006 at 1:34 am
Zach,
Still waters run deep,my friend , very deep.
She lied to you from the beginning. That is never a good thing. It is good that you are
going to counselling with her. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt but she is such an inigma, nobody knows what her true story is . Nobody really knows her. She could be playing you with her boyfriend for all you know. Maybe she knows of your dad and she is trying some kind of flim-flam to get money out of you or him.
You have friends on the police force. Would they be willing to do a background check on her?
I don’t like to think ill of someone especially a girl who was done wrong by a former boyfriend.
But you have a young son and a reputation to uphold.
And my friend ,you do have a temper. You can be provoked ,especially by a pro.
I Know wht you said ” I HAVEN’T AND I WON’T. DON’T WANT TO. NO DESIRE. SHE DOES NOTHING FOR ME ANYMORE.” But ask yourself ,”How do I feel?”
I think you still have feelings for this girl. Even though your brain says run ,your heart says stay.
Be careful. Do the background check. Speak with the counsellor. If she checks out ok ,well ,then decide if you can make that emotional investment. Don’t forget that Josh’s happiness is at stake here.
November 5, 2006 at 5:22 am
Zach, you know I’ll follow the KISS rule on this one. Going to counselling with her is a good idea for three reasons. You get to find out a bit more about her (for future reference, if needed), you can have the counsellor help her to understand the relationship is over, and you have the peace of mind of not justing walking away and then hearing that she offed herself.
Refer back to my comments of two whole people in a relationship. Amy needs to deal with her issues before she enters ANY relationship. You should do what is needed to put Amy aside “safely,” but do not invest more emotionally than that. Amy might see it as “another chance.” As we’ve said, your main priority right now is Josh.
Yes, DO accept her payment for the damages. To be forgiven outright will be seen by her as she can do no wrong in your eyes, i.e. “another chance.” Remember, you said she was a tad unbalanced. Help tip her back to level by making her own up to the fact that her actions were wrong and she has to be responsible for her behavior. Consider carefully what you say around her or ask the counsellor for tips as to what to do/say when in the sessions. Give her an inch…
Chew on that. I’ll pop in tomorrow for questions, comments, curses, etc.
November 5, 2006 at 10:47 am
Big Jake and DJ, thanks for the input. I think it’s a good idea about asking for a background check. I’ll do that and let you know what I find out.
The feelings I have for Amy are more guilt than anything else. Amy is very pretty, we had a lot in common and I really pursued her. She wasn’t interested in even going out in the beginning. I was out with her a few times before she even let me kiss her. I feel bad that I kept after her, and I really wanted her, but I didn’t know anything about her other than what she told me about herself. I thought she really was a widow. I never thought she was lieing about her past. I probably would’ve fallen in love with her because I cared about her more than anyone since Caroline. If she would’ve just gone with the flow of things. We had a great summer together. I liked being with her. She was funny, warm, affectionate, and loving, but always hesitated when things would heat up between us. That confused me but I still respected her. She was always bringing up how important is was to wait for marriage like I wouldn’t want her anymore if something happened between us before that. I know it probably sounds contradictory, but I don’t hold it against a girl if she’s had a sexual relationship with someone before me. I don’t want a floosey, but if people feel deeply about each other, sometimes that just happens and I think that’s normal. Especially at our age. I don’t think I have loose morals, but then again, the morals I have for myself are different than the ones I would want my daughter, or sister, or mother to have. Like I said, I don’t think it’s any big deal if things happen between two people that have a strong relationship and believe they love each other. I thought Amy and I were headed that way, but she shut me down time after time and she’d always bring up the marriage thing. I felt pressured by it and I got sick of being around her so much and knowing that I wasn’t ready to make that big of a commitment and she wasn’t ready for anything more than what we had. I’m a passionate guy and when someone is all over me and you’re ready to go and the red light comes on time after time, after a while it gets to you. Maybe I’m a jerk, I don’t know. Now she’s all hung up on me and ready to do anything only out of fear of losing me. Who wants that? I don’t. And I don’t like casual sex, either. And I feel guilty because she’s all messed up from her past and was probably on her way to recovery and then I come along and mess her up again. I love her little girl. I don’t understand how a man could abandon his own kid. She’s only 4 and she is so sweet and so well behaved. She does everything you tell her to. She has a pleasant personality and always tells you she loves you. I wanted more kids. I always wondered what it would be like to have a daughter. I’d take this little girl in a minute. She’s so cute. I don’t want to do anything to hurt her mother or have my actions damage that little girl in any way. I think a lot of what is happening with Amy started because of me. It makes me feel like shit. Because she IS a nice person. She got screwed and hurt and if I had known that in the beginning things probably wouldn’t have gone the way they did. She was only protecting herself. She didn’t want to get pregnant by me and then have me do the same thing. She should’ve known me better than that because I was always decent to her and she saw how I treated my own son and her daughter. I’d never desert a child of mine and if I did get someone pregnant I’d always take care of the baby and the mother. But, she must’ve believed this other guy would stand by her and make things right and when he didn’t she just figured that’s what some men do and was scared to risk it again. She’s a mess and I do feel some responsibilty about it. Like you said Big Jake, my brain does say run, but my heart feels something toward her. I’m not sure what it is but she’s vulnerable and she needs me now. I probably sound as nutty as she is.
November 5, 2006 at 2:10 pm
Zach:
No ,you sound very,very human. If the background check comes back clean, and if you
continue with her in counselling, and you can develop a level of trust …
This sounds so Jerry McGuire…
——————————————————————————–
Jerry: Can I ask you a question totally unrelated to your career?
Rod: Oh, we gonna be friends now?
Jerry: What do you know about dating a single mother?
Rod: Oh I know plenty. I was raised by a single mother.
Jerry: Tell me, because it’s been a month, and she’s about to take another job in San Diego.
Rod: First, single mothers don’t “date.” They have been to the circus, you know what I’m saying? They have been to the puppet show and they have seen the strings. You love her?
Jerry: How do I know?
Rod: You know when you know. It makes you shiver, it eats at your insides. You know?
Jerry: No, I don’t know.
Rod: Then you gotta have The Talk.
Jerry: But I sure don’t like that she’s leaving.
Rod: Well, that ain’t fair to her. A single mother, that’s a sacred thing, man.
Jerry: The kid is amazing.
Rod: No. A real man does not shoplift the “pooty” from a single mom.
Jerry: I didn’t “shoplift the pooty.” We were thrown together and — I mean it’s two mutual people who — Alright, I shoplifted the pooty.
Rod: Shame on you. SHAME on you.
——————————————————————————–
and from her point of view:
Dorothy: Maybe I am taking advantage. Am I a bad person? All I know is that I found someone who was charming and popular and not-so-nice to me — and he died. Okay? So why should I let this guy go, when everything in my body says this one is the one.
Laurel: Easy, hon, I was just looking for fun details —
Dorothy: Oh, well, why didn’t you say so? And oh, I don’t know if you’re interested in this detail, but I was just about to tell you that I love him. I love him, and I don’t care what you think. I love him for the man he wants to be, and I love him for the man he almost is. I love him.
——————————————————————————–
November 6, 2006 at 3:09 pm
Big Jake, sorry I haven’t checked in. The company I work for switched over to a new computer system and I was in seminars all last week. (yawn) The diet was hard to stick to. They had lunches catered in for us and we went out to company dinners twice. They have the coffee and doughnuts thing every morning, too. I watched my portions, but it’s still hard. I was so tired when I got home a couple of nights that I didn’t walk. I don’t know what it is about sitting in those workshops, but they make me more tired than regular work. How are you doing on your diet?
Angel, I hope you’re doing okay. I was thinking of you a few times. It must be terrible to lose a parent. I’m sorry for you. I haven’t been a great church goer and I need to get back to that. Church is important. At least some kind of foundation where you can meet other people with the same beliefs. I think it helps you in life.
Zealot, I’m sorry for what is going on with you. I feel sorry for Amy. Sounds like she’s having a nervous breakdown. You are very nice to put up with her and her antics. I know you said you felt responsible, but you didn’t do anything different than what most guys do anyway, so I don’t understand why you think you have to take care of her and make it up to her. It’s none of my business. I guess I feel like I know you and I just don’t want you to get in over your head. Take care of yourself, your son, and your own future. I don’t think you’re responsible to that girl for anything. If it wouldn’t have been you, it would’ve been someone else she eventually got involved with. Not your fault she’s in the shape she’s in.
November 7, 2006 at 2:37 am
Lovesamerica:
you asked:
How are you doing on your diet?
Just came back from the dietician. Overall down only 3lbs to date. But lost 2 inches on waist .
Slow but steady she says. and No eating after 9PM.
November 7, 2006 at 11:44 am
Big Jake, Amy’s record turned out clean. I’m glad, but it’s all the other stuff I’ve found out that’s blown me away. I am reeling.
I don’t know whether to laugh about it or what. First, she’s not 30, like I thought she turned on her birthday. Wait til you hear this, she’s 22! I can’t believe it. I am shocked and irritated. I’m about 16 years older than her. I don’t like that. It makes me feel uncomfortable. Had I known, I never would’ve gone for her. She knew how old I was that day at the hospital. My birthdate was on my records. So when it got around to me asking how old she was she knew what to say. She played me from the beginning. I’ve always thought most younger girls these days look older, because they didn’t look like they do now when I was in High School, but Amy seemed more mature. She’s no dummy. In the beginning she just seemed to have it all together. I feel like a stupid ass. She is such a liar. And wait til you hear this. She does have a family. Her mother died when she was 7 or 8, I can’t remember which now, but her father remarried and she has two younger sisters. The father is some junior pastor or something at a small church. It’s a nazarene church or an off shoot of that. Whatever. Apparently this church has strict rules. The women arn’t allowed to cut their hair, or wear makeup. They arn’t allowed to wear pants or jeans. They can’t listen to rock music. I think she told the counsellor they never had a TV. Whatever. When she was 17 she got pregnant by some older guy (I guess she’s in to older men, haha) and when her father found out the shit hit the fan. He called her up in front of the congregation and made her confess about what she did and apologize and ask everyone for forgiveness. She was humiliated. She said she begged him not to do that and she never got over it and to this day when she remembers it she gets nauseated. She said some of the ladies in the church shunned her afterward. Some of the other mothers didn’t want her associating with their daughters anymore. When she complained to her father about it, he said that was the price you pay for sin. Her sisters treated her like crap and told her they were embarrassed of her, and she said her father said she disgraced him and the family. He also told her no man would ever want her now. She said he never accepted Cassie, her daughter. He didn’t mistreat her, but referred to the child when he talked to Amy as a bastard child. The older she got, she couldn’t take it anymore so when she got enough money saved up she told them she was leaving and didn’t want him to stop her. Her father told her that was a good idea because she didn’t fit in with them anymore. I guess she still has some contact with them, but for the most part they would prefer to sever the ties with her. What a bunch of shit. She does wear make up, and looks damn good in it. She wears jeans real well, too. She’s got beautiful long blonde hair. She’s quite the looker. I always have music on and she never seemed to be bothered by it. She doesn’t like bars, but she’s had wine with me in the past. I don’t know what to make of this girl. I don’t look at her the same, and I feel funny that she’s so young. I am flipping out about it if you want to know the truth. I could hardly sleep last night. You know, you think you’re so smart and you find out your gullible as hell. I wish she would’ve been what I thought she was. I talked privately with the counsellor and she said that Amy is very insecure and doesn’t think anyone would accept the real her. She also said that she’s so concerned about her daughter and wants to get married and give her a real family. She told the counsellor I was always so nice to her and I was established and that she couldn’t help but fall in love with me and was afraid to tell me the truth and she got sick of lieing to me and the closer we got it was driving her crazy and that’s why she would cry all the time. She does have strong beliefs about God and she knew she made a terrible mistake but she loves her daughter and doesn’t want her to suffer because of her. This whole thing is getting to me. Let me ask you this, Jake, you said you had a daughter about 23. How would you feel if she brought someone like me home? The age and all that? Tell me the truth. Trust me, nothing will shock me. You’ve always told me how you feel about things, so give me your first gut reaction. I need to hear it. I don’t know how I feel about Amy.
November 7, 2006 at 1:54 pm
Zach:
I had a feeling there was something going on.
How much of this came out in counselling ? probably everything but her age.
You know ,from what you are telling me ,it seems that she is 22 going on 37. Life is
funny. This kid really had it rough. Her mind was messed with and it wasn’t her fault. Angel is right to be pissed off by organized religion. At times it is so hypocritical.
Boy, I’ve heard a lot of crap in my life but this takes the cake!
“It’s a nazarene church or an off shoot of that. Whatever. Apparently this church has strict rules. The women arn’t allowed to cut their hair, or wear makeup. They arn’t allowed to wear pants or jeans. They can’t listen to rock music. I think she told the counsellor they never had a TV. Whatever. When she was 17 she got pregnant by some older guy (I guess she’s in to older men, haha) and when her father found out the shit hit the fan. He called her up in front of the congregation and made her confess about what she did and apologize and ask everyone for forgiveness. She was humiliated. She said she begged him not to do that and she never got over it and to this day when she remembers it she gets nauseated. She said some of the ladies in the church shunned her afterward. Some of the other mothers didn’t want her associating with their daughters anymore. When she complained to her father about it, he said that was the price you pay for sin”.
As DJ would say WWJD? Certainly not this!
” Her sisters treated her like crap and told her they were embarrassed of her, and she said her father said she disgraced him and the family. He also told her no man would ever want her now. She said he never accepted Cassie, her daughter. He didn’t mistreat her, but referred to the child when he talked to Amy as a bastard child.”
How cruel can they be?!! It is better that Amy should get away from the whole Coxie Army! What a bunch of hypocrits, they never did anything wrong??!!!! Yeah ,right!
Look Zach, I’m probably more sappy than you are
because I always try to do the right thing,I always put myself last, and I almost always get a kick in the butt for it.But here it is .
Give Amy a second chance.
First have a talk with her regarding all of the above. The lies have to stop or there is no relationship . She has to get everything out in the open so you can get a fresh start . I would assume that she has no problem walking away from her past. Sounds like she escaped from a cult.
Steady as she goes with the relationship. Let things develope as they develope. If things get serious and you should want to marry her , insist on a prenuptual agreement so you protect Zach and Josh just in case things don’t work out.
She has to agree to that or no deal.
Explain to her that everything from the marriage date on is 50/50 but everything prior to the marriage -what’s yours is yours ,what’s her’s is hers.
Does she LOVE you? Do you Love her? That is the question you have to determine.
The age difference … Well when you are 78 she will be 62. That doesn’t seem so bad, does it?
Does your sister know about this? She knows Amy.
Can you confide in her ?
November 7, 2006 at 2:08 pm
Zach:
I almost forgot. Don’t confuse Jake as a father with Jake as a husband. As a father ,if my daughter brought home a guy who is 16 years older ,I wouldn’t like it. That would mean that I did something wrong as a father and she was looking for a father image.
This situation is something totally different.
While Amy knew your age ,you chased her and she resisted. You didn’t know that there was the age difference. If you were immature and were knowingly chasing someone 16 years younger, well that’s a different story,not this story.
As a husband, well, love is love. I think that is where we are going with this.
November 7, 2006 at 3:03 pm
Wow!
Zach, incredible story. I second Big Jake; give this girl another chance. She definitely sounds like an old soul in a younger body. I have to say she sounds a lot like me when I first met my husband (he’s 10 years older than me). I mean, I didn’t go through quite the horrors Amy did and lie to my future husband, but I was definitely screwed up and lost. If my husband hadn’t stuck with me, I just don’t know where I would be now.
This girl loves you and thought you were “the one”. She has a very strong conscience and actually lying is horrible to a person such as this. If you are a truthful person by nature, and a believer, lying to someone you love literally tears you up inside. She shouldn’t have gotten destructive, but man, there has been so much pain in this young woman’s life, so much rejection, that I cannot see how she wouldn’t snap after losing a man she absolutely adored and felt safe with.
You have to understand this girl didn’t have the experience to deal with a man making such strong moves on her. On the one hand, she’d get hot and heavy with you because she wanted to please you and she loved you, on the other hand, it sounds like her one serious experience with a man ended in utter humiliation and rejection for her. She was torn in two. She adores you and wants to give herself to you but she is so desperately afraid of desertion. And then, because you can’t handle being involved any longer with a girl you think is being a “tease”, you end things.
Zach, this is a good, decent girl. A wounded young woman. Attend counseling with her and give the two of you another chance. She may be the one…
November 7, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Big Jake – I have read over the information and I am fascinated. We’ll get back to this topic down the road.
Zach – I feel for Amy. Red Dawn couldn’t have said it any better. This poor girl has been so hurt, brainwashed and rejected. Forgive her, if you can. The age thing, I can understand why you would feel funny, but really, what does it matter? You’re both adults. If we lived in a world where no one knew how old we were, how old would you think she was? It’s a just a number. You could meet someone 35 that has the maturity level of a teenager. Don’t let that discourage you. You’re still young, too.
And what century is her father living in? He needs a major wake up call. Him and his stupid church. To belittle his daughter like that makes me sick. I can’t imagine how she must’ve felt in front of all those people. And they stand in judgement like they’re all so perfect. Big Jake is right again. It’s better that she stays away because they do sound like a bunch of cultists. Another thing Zach, even though you were attracted to her in the beginning because of her beauty, God was in the midst of this whole thing. He knows your heart, and he also knows hers. Turn this over to Him and let him take care of it. You sound like quite a man and I’m sure the real Amy will emerge with love and patience. What do you call it…a prize? I think she probably is one.
November 7, 2006 at 7:47 pm
This is just great.
I am 23 and someone 22…..
Never mind. I am going to go eat a chocolate bar.
To hell with the diet today.
November 7, 2006 at 7:58 pm
lovesamerica:
You are joking ,right?
November 7, 2006 at 11:01 pm
Everybody,
I came across the following and I felt I needed to post it here. Kind of reminds me of you guys. Thanks.
Lessons from the Geese
This Fall,
when you see geese heading south
for the winter flying along in “V” formation,
you might consider what science has discovered
as to why they fly that way.
FACT:
As each bird flaps its wings,
it creates an “uplift” for the bird immediately following.
By flying in a “V” formation,
the whole flock has at least 71% greater flying range
than if each bird flew on it’s own.
LESSON:
People who share a common direction
and sense of community can get where they are going more quickly
and easily because they are traveling
on the thrust of one another.
FACT:
When a goose flies out of formation,
it suddenly feels the drag and resistance of trying to go it alone.
It quickly gets back into formation
to take advantage of the lifting power
of the bird in front of it.
LESSON:
If we have as much common sense as a goose,
we stay in formation with those headed where we want to go.
We are willing to accept their help and give our help to others.
It is harder to do something alone than together.
FACT:
When the lead goose gets tired,
it rotates back into the formation,
and another goose flies to the point position.
LESSON:
It is sensible to take turns
doing the hard and demanding tasks and sharing leadership.
As with geese, people are interdependent of each others skills,
capabilities, and unique arrangements
of gifts, talents, or resources.
FACT:
The geese flying in formation
honk from behind
to encourage those up front to keep up their speed.
LESSON:
We need to make sure our honking is encouraging.
In groups where there is encouragement,
the production is much greater.
The power of encouragement
(to stand by one’s heart or core values and encourage the heart and core of others)
is the quality of honking we seek.
We need to make sure
our honking is encouraging and not discouraging.
FACT:
When a goose gets sick, wounded, or shot down,
two other geese will drop out of formation with that goose
and follow it down to lend help and protection.
They stay with the fallen goose
until it dies or is able to fly again.
Then, they launch out on their own,
or with another formation to catch up with their flock.
LESSON: If we have the sense of a goose,
we will stand by our colleagues
and each other in difficult
times as well as in good!
~ Written by Angeles Arrien ~
November 8, 2006 at 12:22 am
Zach,
OK, sorry, but I feel I need to be the “devil’s advocate,” here. If Amy has lied in the past, is the story about her past with the christian-extremist step-father fictitious as well? Is it a well choreographed attempt at your sympathy? Zach, you are a good man, you are human, but as Big Jake said, slow and steady.
The positive spin: The age difference thing has been going on for centuries. Young girls have been paired off for social reasons as well as consolidating family fortunes with older men for a loooong time, now. Is it creepy? Only if the guy looks like Count Olaf from “Lemony Snickets: A Series of Unfortunate Events.”
If she can see past the age difference, then so can you. Yes, age is a number, maturity is what counts. However, I don’t agree with ancient geezers marrying young trophy wives. THAT’S creepy! It’s OK to drool over your wife if you’re young and she’s hot. It’s not cool to drool because you’re 90 plus years old!
Now, my two-cents worth. Do some serious soul searching for your TRUE feelings about Amy. If you can honestly say that you are willing to put aside all of the crap the two of you just went through and help her get back on an even keel, press on. BUT DO NOT CONTINUE ANY RELATIONSHIP BECAUSE YOU FEEL SORRY FOR THE OTHER PERSON. As recommended above, ask God for guidance, but ultimately you will be required to make a leap of faith, so to speak. Gentlemen! Start your “search-engines!”
November 8, 2006 at 2:42 am
Thanks to all of you for giving me your thoughts on this. I haven’t told anyone because I don’t want to put Amy in a bad light or have her become the topic of any conversation. Especially if I keep seeing her. It’s no one’s business but ours, and it’s nice having all of you to vent to and talk this over with in private.
DJ, believe it or not, I wondered if she was lieing about her past, too, but, with Amy’s permission, the counselor got in touch with her father to consult with him and get some medical information. She told me privately the father was concerned, but not overly worried. He told her they were praying for Amy because she is a lost sheep and is paying the price for sin and bad choices and for not putting God first in her life. Frankly, I don’t know if I could talk to this guy and keep cool. My impression of him is that he has the same DNA as my father. “A” standing for asshole.
Big Jake, my sister does know. I did tell her all about it. She’d never say anything. I trust her. She needed to know anyway because she watches Josh for me. She told me she really likes Amy, but she loves me. She wants me to be careful. She would like us to work it out. She thought we were good together and told me this summer was the happiest she’d seen me in years. She and Amy would go shopping together and out to lunch once in a while. She got mad about the damage she did, but she didn’t think I should hold it against her considering everything. She thought she just snapped because everything she was doing wasn’t working. I didn’t tell her she’s only 22. I don’t want to tell anyone that yet. That bugs me more than anything. Even more than her denting the truck. The counselor knew about her age, and she told me to wait to confront Amy about it. She’s going to try to get Amy to tell me herself. I like this counselor. The first one we talked to was a man, and Amy asked if she could request a woman. She felt she would open up better, and she did. As far as my feelings about Amy, if I love her, truthfully, I still probably could. I don’t know if all this is making me weird, but there’s something appealing about her vulnerablility. I don’t know what it is. Sometimes the way she looks at me just makes me want to take care of her. Am I getting sucked in? The counselor told me she asked Amy what she loved about me. Amy told her the main thing was that she felt safe with me. Red Dawn wrote that, and I wondered how she could sense that. Amy told her if there was ever a crisis or anything major happened, I would be the one she’d want to be with because she knew I’d take care of it. She knows I’d make sure she and Cassie would be okay. What makes women think that way? I just wish I could get passed the age difference. Big Jake, you said you wouldn’t want your daughter to be with someone my age because her interest in him would be a father figure. Shit…I don’t want to be a father figure. Not to her. Not to any woman I’m with. That’s kind of grosses me out. Anyway, the 2nd chance thing, well just being there for her now is like a 2nd chance. I do like being with her. There is an attraction there. I’ll be slow. And smart. I hope.
November 8, 2006 at 3:22 am
Zach:
You have your head on straight regarding the “father figure thing”. We knew that all along. You ,through counselling have to make sure that Amy doesn’t see you as a substitute father figure. This should all come out with the therapy.
It is ok for her to see you as her protector,provider and general go-to guy. That’s what a “husband “is supposed to be in addition to a partner ,a lover,and a father to the children.
You are not nor should you be thought of as a “Daddy substitute”. That detracts from you as a husband.
If you were old ,fat and rich and she was Anna Nicole Smith ,well thats a “daddy substitute”.
I don’t think that is the case here.
November 8, 2006 at 3:58 am
Zach,
It’s genetics. It’s in our pattern of being the head of the household, the breadwinner, the knight in shining armor. We’re gentlemen, we’re chivalrous, we’re caring. We need to feel needed as much as women feel they need to be cared for. It’s a balancing act, though.
What does Amy see in you? Stability, reliability, strength, character, and most of all, someone she feels safe around. Yes, her problem seems to go back to her first intimate encounter with a man, the crap with her step-father, what he and her “family” did to her (What wonderful loving, forgiving, christians!). If you wish to help her through that, polish your armor, saddle up the steed, and holster your lance. We’ll cheer you on from the grandstands.
Now, let’s look at it from her point of view. Just how many males of her age are what could be considered father/husband material? Probably not many. Why wouldn’t she be attracted to you? You have all the traits that her instincts tell her to watch for.
I’m a lot like my father in the sense that he felt driven to protect, provide for, and do all he could for my mother. I picked up on that and have treated my “significant others” as well as I could. But with wife #2, there came a point that all that I did was for naught. She was spiraling downward and I was following. It was like a scene from a WW II movie where a guy in the flight takes what looks like a light hit and wings over toward the ground, all the while his wingman is hollering “Pull up! Pull up!” I pulled up before I cratered.
I get the idea that you have your eyes wide open, now, and are treading steadily, but carefully. Good deal. Let me add that I feel honored that you value my advice. You are not alone in this. Keep us updated with the progress (now there’s a positive note!) and we’ll inundate you with more suggestions and wisdom(?).
November 8, 2006 at 2:51 pm
Big Jake, #658. I wasn’t joking. I did buy a Milky Way but it’s still in my desk. It keeps calling to me but I’m resisting. Don’t know how long I will, though.
I’m irritated about this thing between Zach and Amy. Zach, I know you’re going to read this. I wish I could say what I really want to but I won’t. It just irritates me that girls like Amy always win. All you guys rally around her like she’s some poor, helpless female. The bottom line is, she’ll end up with what she wants. Maybe it’s just jealousy, but I would love to meet someone that’s reliable, and stable and all that other stuff. I don’t have any hangups, baggage or deep issues someone has to work with. It just, to put bluntly, PISSES ME OFF.
November 8, 2006 at 3:53 pm
lovesamerica:
I’m glad you didn’t eat the Milky Way out of anger, or because you feel sorry for yourself ,or because everyone else is gorging on Milky Ways, or because the topic turned to Zach and Amy(not Amy from Philadelphia).
What’s up? Zach is 37 years old and 500 miles away. He is in a relationship that if he had known at the time what the facts were ,maybe he wouldn’t have gotten into. And there are two children involved, Josh and Cassie.
Zach and Amy(not Amy from Philadelphia) are trying to put their somewhat shattered lives back together and we are trying to help as best we can.
If you were my daughter , I would be very upset if you were trying to have a relationship with Zach. Maybe that is the problem ,because I see you as my daughter and I don’t see Zach’s Amy
that way.
Zach’s Amy is “22 going on 37” with a 5 year old daughter.
“First, single mothers don’t “date.” They have been to the circus, you know what I’m saying? They have been to the puppet show and they have seen the strings.”
You are 23 going on 23 with your whole life ahead of you ,no complications to speak of except growing up and enjoying yourself and finding the right guy. Sure your Dad left when you were 8 years old. We know that. You know that. Pick your guy for the right reasons ,not because of a psychological scar caused by someone who was selfish way back then.
This illustrates the point I was trying to make in reference to Zach’s question and Zach’s response.
Zach’s post #661
“I just wish I could get passed the age difference. Big Jake, you said you wouldn’t want your daughter to be with someone my age because her interest in him would be a father figure. Shit…I don’t want to be a father figure. Not to her. Not to any woman I’m with. That’s kind of grosses me out.”
Now, if you want to eat the damned Milky Way ,do it because it tastes so good that you want to eat it as a reward for sticking to the diet and the treadmill. Then get back on the treadmill and burn of the 300 calories you just consumed.
November 8, 2006 at 5:23 pm
n
November 8, 2006 at 5:38 pm
Big Jake, I don’t know what happened because I wrote a pretty lengthy response and it didn’t go. Anyway, I can tell by the tone of your response to me that you’d be pretty stern with me if we were face to face. In my own defense, let me say this. You said you looked at me like a daughter. Why is that???? Is it because maybe we all feel like we know each other on here? The only thing missing from this whole exchange is that we don’t know what each other looks like. I do feel like I know Zach. And lets get something straight right now….I HAVE NEVER THOUGHT OF ZACH AS A FATHER FIGURE. I DON’T FANTASIZE ABOUT MY FATHER. And so he is 500 miles away. Big deal. He won’t be 500 miles away when I move back to Camden. Not to mention, who knows we can’t all meet someday. It’s possible. And so I like him, so what? You might think he’s too old for me, but I don’t. And you bet your ass Amy didn’t think so. She knew what to say when he wanted to know how old she was. Tell me he must not be attractive if she lied to him…tell me she didn’t want him to chase her. Give me a break. If she didn’t want his attention she would’be told him from the get go. And DJ is right. Guys 23, to be blunt, suck. I work with lots of 40 year old men that look awful good. And they know how to treat a woman, too. It wouldn’t bother me a bit to go out with someone 10-15 years older than me. Especially if he was ESTABLISHED, NICE LOOKING, and a GENTLEMEN. Sounds like Zach, doesn’t it. You scold me because I don’t want some dufus young guy that’s full of shit. And don’t think I’m like that sleezebag Anna Nicole Smith. I don’t want some old geezer drooling over me. But 10-15 years older isn’t exactly too old. You need to lighten up. Women know what women want. Smart men do, too. I feel sorry for Zach’s Amy. It’s too bad the things that happened to her. So now with all you guys coaching, she’s right back where she wants to be. And Zach’s falling for her all over again. You can see it in his emails. Let’s all applaud this union. She’s 20 frickin’ 2, and I’m 23. But I’m too young. I don’t think so. And furthermore, I’m not going to eat that stupid candy bar. I’m going to keep getting better an better and I’m going to look for some older guy, because these younger ones just don’t match up.
Big Jake………don’t forget……I still love you to death.
November 8, 2006 at 8:49 pm
lovesamerica;
I still love you to death too! I don’t know . Maybe I’m some kind of a jerk. I was 24 going on 40 when I got married so maybe my point of reference is all screwed up in today’s day and age.
All I meant to say was that Amy has been through the mill already, She’s been burned by life. She has a child to take care of.
You are fresh out of the box. Life is supposed to be great, an adventure, fun. I don’t want you to have to look back 15 years from now and say “What the heck was I thinking?”
Believe me , it goes very very fast. And you can never ,ever get this time of your life back again.
Amy ,I know that it is tough not having met the right guy yet but it will happen ,trust me.
November 8, 2006 at 9:41 pm
Big Jake, so you were 24….let me ask you…truthfully…looking back….would you do the same thing again?
And I want you to know something. If I could only meet one person on here, I’d choose you.
November 9, 2006 at 1:00 am
Re: lovesamerica # 666. Hmmm, look at the number! LOL!
Re: lovesamerica # 667. Don’t fall for the “guy on the internet” like so many women have. Zach could be a axe murderer for all we know. We know women can misrepresent themselves, as we’ve learned on this site. If you and Zach were “meant to be,” it would have happened. And just for the record, please note I’ve been recommending caution and/or cut and run. Please don’t be bitter because Zach is involved, and not with you. Continue to channel your frustration into your goal of self-improvement and be patient. There are plenty of frogs in the pond, young and old.
Re: lovesamerica # 669, I’m crushed! Boo-hoo! Pass ME the Milky Way bar.
; )
November 9, 2006 at 3:23 am
DJ, Thanks a lot. I’m not an axe murderer. And I don’t think anyone is falling for me. lovesamerica has created some image of me in her mind and that’s what she’s fallen for. It’s not me.
DJ & Big Jake, you said I could ask for suggestions/wisdom. Here goes. The counselor suggested to me that it would better if I kept things under control between Amy and me while she was counseling her. She wants me to be supportive, but it’s important to keep things at a low key until Amy resolves some issues and comes to terms with me and what we agree to do about our relationship. I agreed. I don’t want anything to start up right now. Slow and steady, right? I’m not even sure how I feel about her or what the outcome of all this will even be. Well, Amy and Cassie stop by the house tonight. We watch a little TV, talk, Cassie falls asleep on the couch. Amy says she needs to get going and get Cassie to bed. I carry Cassie out to the car for her and put her in the car seat. I turn around to say good-by to Amy, and she plants this kiss on me that would curl your socks. I looked at her for a minute afterward, and then she did it again. Then she gets in the car and leaves. I’m supposed to keep things low key. Yeah, right. How am I supposed to handle this? I’m telling you, this girl gets to me. And this 22 thing, it just isn’t sitting right. I feel like a cradle robber. What should I do? She’s not going to let go. And I feel like she’s going to try to seduce me. And trust me guys, I’m seducable. I’m actually concerned about being alone with her, because I think the restraints have come off with her. And I’m really not sure what I’ll do. Don’t tell me not to be alone with her, because I know at some point, that will just happen. I would’ve thought the counselor would’ve said the same thing to her about taking it slow. Granted, it was only a couple of kisses, but these were not your regular kisses. These were get the juices flowing kisses. I’m no father figure. That’s for sure. She makes me nervous.
Oh, Big Jake, it’s nice lovesamerica would choose you out of all of us. DJ is taking it pretty hard. Just think, if you were 20 years younger, she’d probably go for you. I take that back, maybe 5 years younger. Haha.
November 9, 2006 at 3:39 am
lovesamerica:
AW,shucks,you went and made me blush.
Yes, once upon a time I was 24, and yes I
would do it all again.
Did you ever see The Family Man with Nicholas Cage and Tea Leoni? That is my life story in reverse. I didn’t go to Europe like Nicholas Cage’s character to start that important internship that would have gotten me off on
the right foot toward my first million. I got a job,got married and started a family. I’ll never be rich but I still provide for my family as best as I can. We haven’t had a real vacation since our honeymoon . We do take two day trips to Wildwood,NJ etc. Over the 27 years Carmen and I have been married ,we’ve had our share of crises ,health scares etc. We all go through that stuff. We struggled through it all together and it made us stronger.
I’m pretty much like George Baily to her Mary Bailey in “Its a Wonderful Life.” Yes, when it comes down to it I would do it all over again.
DJ – If you eat the damned Milky Way , you have to go on the treadmill or I tell Mrs.DJ!!!
November 9, 2006 at 4:23 am
ZACH:
Boy-oh-boy are you in trouble now!
Did you know that forced abstinance has an aphrodisiac effect on the abstainers? Combine that with the “forbidden fruit” aspect of the relationship,what you know and what she dosen’t know you know … You are going to be in for some interesting times to say the least.
I’m afraid you have created a monster ,little brother.
Advice and/or Wisdom: Have a sense of humor ,cut down on the aftershave and/or cologne,take more frequent cold showers
YOU WROTE:
She’s not going to let go. And I feel like she’s going to try to seduce me. And trust me guys, I’m seducable. I’m actually concerned about being alone with her, because I think the restraints have come off with her. And I’m really not sure what I’ll do. Don’t tell me not to be alone with her, because I know at some point, that will just happen. I would’ve thought the counselor would’ve said the same thing to her about taking it slow. Granted, it was only a couple of kisses, but these were not your regular kisses. These were get the juices flowing kisses. I’m no father figure. That’s for sure. She makes me nervous.
Kind of reminds me of the Hai Karate tv commercials of the late 60’s early 70’s
Hai Karate! – Back in the 1960s and 1970s, a lot of companies were using sex to sell their products. One of the more memorable came from the Hai Karate after shave people. Like the TAG ads of 2005, the Hai Karate spots warned their customers to be on the look out for wild women who were adversely affected by the product’s seductive lemon-lime scent. Purchasers of Hai Karate received a self defense booklet with tips on how to avoid over-sexed chicks. The fun part of the commercial was seeing dorky guys with dark rimmed glasses karate chopping their way past a throng of lust-filled woman.
Here is a script from one of their ads.
Announcer: [Whispering] You’re at the top secret Hai Karate training school. These trainees are learning how to defend themselves in case they get a Hai Karate! gift set for Christmas.
[Cardboard cutouts of women suddenly pop up as trainees in karate outfits wander through an open field. The men defend themselves with Karate chops.]
Announcer: [Forceful voice] Hai Karate! There’s a cram course on self defense in every package.
[Trainees apply more Hai Karate as three real woman approach from behind. The men turn and defend themselves]
Announcer: Hai Karate! It’s like super mistletoe in a bottle.
[Dorky guy fights off a pack of women. Hai YA!]
November 9, 2006 at 4:48 am
Zach:
Seriously speaking, relax. Speak to the counselor about it. She can bring it up in a joint counseling session to set the ground rules .
If you remember the John Wayne film,”The Quiet Man” –
Michaleen Flynn: “No patty-fingers, if you please. The proprieties at all times. Hold on to your hats.”
September 17, 2021 at 6:13 pm
November 9, 2006 at 11:45 am
DJ, I’m not trying to have a relationship with Zach. If I knew him personally, maybe I’d do the same thing little Miss Amy did. You said women on this site misrepresent themselves. Who are you talking about? Do you mean me? I’m not sure I understand what you meant by that. The only one I can think of is that goofball that was so insulting a while back. But he was a man. And the reason I would pick Jake over everyone else is because he’s always here for everyone and he genuinely cares about people. I don’t think he’s a phoney. I think he’s honest, real, and cuddly. I think he’s who he says he is. You are a lot of fun and I love your perspective on things. You’d be the life of the party. You are very smart. But you come and go. I never know when I read your posts if it’s the last one you’ll ever do. And Zach, he’s like the sexy guy on here. Not that the rest of you arn’t sexy in your own way, but Zach’s young and hot. (I think) And Zach’s right. He’s whoever you want him to be in your head, with a sexy spin to it. When I read his last post, I visualize myself as the girl kissing him and wanting to tear into him. People think in images. You read something and it forms a picture in your head. Zach is a turn on. Red Dawn and American Woman know what I’m talking about. Even though they’re married, they see the same thing I do. They just don’t say it. But I’m not putting my life on hold hoping to meet Zach. Give me more credit.
Big Jake, you are so special. I hope I meet someone just like you and I don’t care if he’s rich monetarily. You are very RICH. You are everything a family wants, and you can’t buy it.
Zach, be careful. You said it yourself. She’s no dummy. She wants you and she’ll do whatever it takes.
November 9, 2006 at 1:12 pm
Re: Big Jake # 672. I ran 2 miles last night (8 Nov) instead of eating the Milky Way bar.
Re: lovesamerica #675. This is the second time I’ve noticed you getting a little miffed when someone makes a general comment on the posts. They say, “If the shoe fits, where it.” I think you are trying on too many shoes. My comment was meant to point out that I felt you were a bit obsessed with Zach, nothing derogatory. My apologies if I offended you.
And “Ouch!” You just nailed the history of my life. “Oh, he’s fun to be with.” “He’s smart and nice.” I “always finished last” when it came to women. I never could be the bad boy that seems to attract women. I had to wait until “the right one” was ready for a “nice guy.” But as I said in a previous post, God had a lot to do with that, too.
I do check the site daily. As I’ve said before, I simply do not comment when you or someone else has said what I would have to a post. If you’d like, I’ll start posting, “DJ says ditto!” on something I agree with.
Well, gotta run. Just popped on before work to see what y’all said last night. “See” y’all this afternoon.
November 9, 2006 at 2:58 pm
DJ, I wasn’t offended. I just didn’t want you thinking I’m some stupid kid falling in love on the internet. And I said that about coming and going because I don’t want you to leave. I don’t want any of you to leave. Eagle, Viber, they were fun. Gone. American Woman, we don’t hear from her anymore. Red Dawn gets on ocassionally when she can tear herself away from the mirror. JUST KIDDING. Couldn’t resist. I do look forward to your comments because you ARE smart, and to be honest, I’m learning a lot about men and life in general. Some times I don’t understand your posts. I’m not up to your level of brains. You talk about your ex-wife and use these analogies like crashing and spiraling down, and I don’t know what you’re talking about. I thought maybe she was a druggie or something. Or maybe you were a druggie or an alcoholic to put up with her. You see, I’m still dumb and naive, so I need things spoken clearly or they fly by. (No, I”m not blonde, but from what I’m learning about Zach’s Amy, I don’t think they’re all that stupid.) I think you’re a cool guy. If I spout off once in awhile, it’s probably just my youth. I’ll improve with time. Hug & make up? I’d say kiss, but you might think I’m after you. 🙂
November 9, 2006 at 3:32 pm
OH, I almost forgot. I’ve been wanting to ask you all and I keep forgetting. Election Day. Did you vote? I’d like to know what party you affiliate yourselves. If you don’t mind.
Big Jake, one time I thought you were from Queens and then you said New Jersey. Which is it? I’m pretty sure you’re a New Yorker. And is Zach from Buffalo? And DJ, we all know you’re a Texan. Near Mexico…maybe El Paso? I was just wondering where you guys stand politically. If you don’t think that’s being too nosey. Thanks.
I’m registered Republican, but I’d vote for who I thought was the best guy. And I’m conservative. My hero is Bill O’Reilly. I read all his books. He’s awesome. I’d love to go out to lunch with him. No, I’m not after him…..he’s definitely too OLD, but I love the way he thinks.
November 9, 2006 at 8:06 pm
These last few days hase been interesting on this site. You all give such good advice and it’s almost like a brainstorming session when we all get going.
lovesamerica, I know it’s none of my business, but I’d like to give you my two cents worth. Your interest in older men can be dangerous. There might be some real good catches out there, (like our friend, Zach) but they’re rare. Consider this. Most of the single men in that age group are divorced, bitter about their divorce and swear they’ll never get married again, or confirmed bachelors very set in their ways. If they’re divorced, there is usually children. Which means, you never get rid of the ex-wife. If he doesn’t have the children (aare you ready to be Mom to someone elses children?) or you will paying child support until they’re at least 18. When there’s problems with the kids, the guy and his wife usually will get together and share the problem. (You are going to have to share him with his former family) It takes very mature people to deal with this. Very unselfish people. People very much in love. Big Jake has a good point. You’re fresh out of the box. Which, by the way, Jake, I thought was very well said. You have an education and you’re young. There’s plenty of young men out there with no strings that are great guys and MEN in the making. Young men are graduating from law schools, med schools, etc. every day. Don’t sell yourself short. There’s a lot to consider. Look around, be careful and ask God to bring that special man into your life. When you do it yourself, you mess up. Don’t be in such a hurry. When the time is right, you’ll be ready, and so will the young man God has for you.
I’m a republican from Pa, conservative, and I just ordered two copies of Culture Warrior off Bill’s website. I love the guy, too.
God Bless.
November 10, 2006 at 12:22 am
Re: lovesamerica # 677. Hugs and kisses to you, too. I’m secure in my little corner of the world, so let the love flow.
You are young, Yes; naive, Perhaps; dumb, No. Merely inexperienced, but getting smarter every day. Sorry about the vague analogies. It’s that darned soul of a poet that comes out ocasionally. Let me clarify.
Second wife was a drug abuser. I was in the Air Force at the time. Tried to help her get treatment. Went through therapy and marital counselling with her. She wasn’t going to be happy unless I lowered myself to her level. Wanted me to get out of the military. I refused, we divorced, I got custody of our daughter, Rebeca. Since we lived close, we talked during her visitations. Seemed like she had realized she made a mistake. Remarried. It lasted two months. Second divorce, same results. Moved to another base 200 miles away from where she stayed. Met third wife (4th marriage), Paula in NE Arkansas. Got out of the Air Force, moved back to Texas. Presently live in Harlingen, down near Brownsville.
Re: 678. Centrist, conservative, Republican. Voted straight ticket. Like Bill also and Glenn Beck, too. Agree with voting for who I think will do the best job.
November 10, 2006 at 3:14 am
Angel, I feel for you. My mom’s incurable lung cancer was cured until she dropped the Thanksgiving Turkey in 2004 as she pulled it out of the oven. Her lung cancer had gotten into her brain. My mom was the type of mom who cleaned house in a dress and high heels. She had homebaked cookies for me and my brothers when we came home from school. I was her only daughter. We only had one fight in our lives and it was when I was 13 and insisted on wearing my hair parted in the middle (she wanted it parted on the side and she was right). My mom didn’t want hospice at the end, so I took care of her. It was so hard to see such a fantastic woman suffer. A test? Big Jake and Red Dawn would say yes. Sometimes I worry that I failed because I had such a hard time when it appeared she turned against me at the end. I was with her for the last two months and then stayed to settle the Will. I told my husband that I want God to take me suddenly when it’s my time. My thoughts and prayers are with you, Angel.
Zach, I just worry for you and your relationship with Amy. She has issues. Do you need to bring these (added to your own with Caroline) into your life and your son’s. I keep coming back to thinking a good woman does not guilt a man into love. Your son is your first priority. I believe a woman of worth will recognize that quality in a man. If something happened to my husband, I would want a potential mate to realize that my children merit my attention and if he loved me, he would encourage this. If you need female companionship, well, you know the ways. I know Red Dawn and BJ will disagree with me, but I am the product of a divorce at 19. You are so right to stick with your son. I have only met a couple of people who fill the role of step parent in a good way. Most are resentful.
Lovesamerica – stick with the health routine. I totally understand your crush on Zach and why you would like to have BJ as a dad and DJ as a big brother. Red Dawn could be an awesome big sister to you. Anyway, you have a level head and it takes a lot of guts to withstand the pressure not to give in. You have my respect.
Angels … guys, I have to tell you they are out there. There are three crystal clear intances in my life that were it not for an angel watching over me and intervening, I would have died a terrible death. You all know the scripture far better than I. I guess I need to thank my guardian angel(s) 10 times over. He/she has saved my life … twice with an intruder intending great harm.
My friends, please take care. I am having a very difficult time with the death of my good friend Lee two weeks ago and the political losses of some good people this past Tuesday. I’m sure our terrorist enemies are cheering in their dens. God help us.
November 10, 2006 at 3:44 am
lovesamerica:
you wrote:
Big Jake, one time I thought you were from Queens and then you said New Jersey. Which is it? I’m pretty sure you’re a New Yorker.
Right on all three. I grew up in Queens Rosedale,NY . Moved to Edison,NJ after we got married. Worked in NYC for most of my working life(still go into city 2-3 days /wk). I therefore still consider myself a New Yorker.
You asked:
Did you vote? I’d like to know what party you affiliate yourselves. If you don’t mind.
Yes, I did vote, straight Republican ticket.
I consider myself a Reagan Democrat. I vote Republican because the leftists have hijacked the Democrat Party.
Don’t get me wrong. I am not too thrilled with the Republicans either. My main beef is the lack of leadership , lack of support for the troops in the field(body armor and failure to up armor the humvees,the Pendelton 8 trial) .
I listen to Michael Savage (The Savage Nation)
and Sean Hannity.
November 10, 2006 at 5:12 am
Americanwoman:
It might help if you were able to share with us some of the happy times you had with your friend Lee.
November 10, 2006 at 3:09 pm
I like the format you guys use when responding so I think I’ll start doing that.
#679 Angel: Thanks for the advice. I’m glad you made me your business. You gave me something to think about. It’s true. Most of the cute older guys here are married. The ones that are single, are divorced. They do seem to know how to treat women better, and I like that. If I go to the coffee machine, and an older guy is there, 9 times out of 10 he’ll buy my coffee for me. The younger ones, well, they don’t. The older guys open doors, too. They just seem nicer. And some of them, really are nice looking. One guy, he’s around 43, he’s been married for over 20 years and he’s a nice guy, loves his wife, has a kid in college. This guy is so hot. When he comes in our office all of us just kind of drool behind his back. We make jokes about doing his wife in. But, you’re probably right, I should just stick in my own age group. I wouldn’t mind ending up with a Dr. or a lawyer. I appreciate you caring enough to share what you think. Thanks.
#680 DJ: Wow. 4 times. Holy crap. You must be an expert on what not to do in a marriage. And you think you’re number last on what women want? Hardly. You had three that wanted to marry you, so you must be doing something right.
#681 American Woman: I’m so very sorry about your friend. That must be awful and my heart goes out to you. I’ve really missed you, so don’t stay away too long. I know I bust on Red Dawn a little bit. I don’t mean it. I know she’s got a big heart. I’m sure she’s very sweet.
I feel dopey when people write that I have a crush on Zach. I know he reads this stuff and I visualize him rolling his eyes. He just sounds like a cool guy, that’s all. I’d just love to know what he looks like. I’d take DJ for a brother any day. And Big Jake, he doesn’t know it yet, but he’s going to adopt me. His whole character reminds me of the father of a friend of mine. I have envied this girl and the relationship she has with her father all my life. Her Dad is the best. He’s tender and always talks to us and gives us good advice. He’d take us out to lunch once in a while and joke around. I would’ve loved to have my father pay that kind of attention to me. I know my father loves me, but I think I’ve always just been an expense to him. And his wife always has acted annoyed when I’m around, so Angel & American Woman are probably right about the step-parent thing. They put up with you more than accept you.
#682 Big Jake: I would love to go to NYC some day. Where were you 9-11? Must’ve been horrible for you being so close. It hurt my heart, I know that. I cried for days and I still do when I see flashed about it on TV. I like Sean Hannity and I watch him a lot. He’s passionate about his beliefs and he’s not as mean as Bill. I like Bill because he’s so confrontational. I used to let people crap on me all the time. I got some guts watching him. If you’re going to get shit on, you might as well learn to throw some back.
November 11, 2006 at 2:32 am
lovesamerica:
9-11 I was working in New Jersey that day. My job includes handling tax audits and I frequently went into NYC to the Trade Center.
I was a tax auditor for NYS after I graduated college and before I became a CPA. I was assigned to the WTC office for a year . The office was on the 66th floor of 2 World Trade Center. I lost some old friends there that day. About 35 people didn’t get out.
November 11, 2006 at 5:49 am
Aha San Antone
I want some black-eyed peas
I want some mustard greens
I want some corn pone on the side
I want my chicken fried
with a golden hide
ahaa San Antone!
When I was a kid I had a locket
and inside was a picture of Davy Crockett
I know a gal named Anne
that lives in Tex-arkan
she loved a boy named ……
November 11, 2006 at 5:57 am
lovesamerica:
you wrote:
“And Big Jake, he doesn’t know it yet, but he’s going to adopt me.”
Amy hon, I already have. yup,I already have.
November 11, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Lyrics to “Happy Trails” by Dale Evans Rogers
Happy trails to you, until we meet again.
Happy trails to you, keep smilin’ until then.
Who cares about the clouds when we’re together?
Just sing a song and bring the sunny weather.
Happy trails to you, ’till we meet again.
Some trails are happy ones,
Others are blue.
It’s the way you ride the trail that counts,
Here’s a happy one for you.
Happy trails to you, until we meet again.
Happy trails to you, keep smilin’ until then.
Who cares about the clouds when we’re together?
Just sing a song and bring the sunny weather.
Happy trails to you, ’till we meet again.
Alternate Religious Verse:
Happy trails to you, it’s great to say “hello”.
And to share with you the trail we’ve come to know.
It started on the day that we met Jesus,
He came into our hearts and then he freed us.
For a life that’s true, a happy trail to you.
Roy Rogers Riders Club Rules:
1. Be neat and clean.
2. Be courteous and polite.
3. Always obey your parents.
4. Protect the weak and help them.
5. Be brave but never take chances.
6. Study hard and learn all you can.
7. Be kind to animals and take care of them.
8. Eat all your food and never waste any.
9. Love God and go to Sunday school regularly.
10. Always respect our flag and our country.
November 11, 2006 at 2:06 pm
Hi Everyone – This is a long post, but worth the read.
From: Subject: Fact or fiction — time will tell!
The following Highly Probably More Fact Than Fiction Scenario was written by Raymond S. Kraft:
December 7, 2008, began inauspiciously.
At 0753 at Pearl Harbor in Hawaii, the attack that had triggered America’s entry into World War II, sixty-seven years before, was ceremoniously commemorated, an honor guard, taps, a 21-gun salute, the bugle’s notes and the rifles’ crack drifting across the bay to the
USS Arizona memorial, where Admiral Arthur Peterson, USN Ret., laid a wreath in memory of the sailors sleeping below –one of whom was his own grandfather.
On the West Coast it was 1053, and in Washington D.C. it was one fifty-three in the afternoon, 1353 military time.
In 2006 America, tired of War in Iraq, had elected Democrats to modest majorities in both houses of Congress. Representative Nancy
Pelosi became Speaker of the House, third in line for the presidency.
In the spring of 2007, on a narrow, party-line vote, Congress, led by Senators John Kerry and Ted Kennedy and Barbara Boxer refused to authorize spending to continue the war in Iraq, and set September 30, 2007, as the deadline for complete withdrawal of American troops.
President Bush spoke to the country, to the American forces in Iraq, to those who had been there, and to the Iraqi people, to apologize for the short-sightedness and irresponsibility of the American congress and the tragedy he believed would follow after leaving task of
nurturing a representative and stable government in Iraq half done, his voice choked, tears running down his stoic face, a betrayal of emotion for which he was resoundingly criticized and denounced in much of America’s media.
The level of violence across Iraq immediately subsided, as the Americans began preparations to redeploy back to the States. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad praised the new Congress for its clear vision and sound judgment.
America’s Democrats rejoiced and congratulated themselves for bringing peace with honor and ending the illegal war based on lies that George Bush had begun only to enrich his friends in the military-industrial complex, and promised to retake the Presidency in 2008.
“The failure of many Americans, including many of the leading Democrats in Congress, and some Republicans, to fully appreciate the persistent, long-term threat posed to America’s liberties and survival, and to the future of Liberal Democracies everywhere, by an Islamic Resistance Movement that envisions a world dominated and defined by an Islamic Caliphate of religious totalitarianism, and which will
fight any war, make any sacrifice, suffer any hardship, and pay any price to achieve it, may prove to be the kind of blunder upon which the
fate of America turns, and falls.”
At 1000 on September 30, 2007, precisely on schedule, the last C-5A Galaxy carrying the last company of American combat troops in
Iraq had roared down the Baghdad runway and lifted into the air. Only a few hundred American technical and military advisers and political liaisons remained in-country.
The Galaxy’s wheels had scarcely retracted when Iraq erupted in the real civil war many had feared and foreseen, and which many
others had predicted would not happen if only the American imperialists left Iraq. Sunni militias, Shia militias, and Al Qaeda militias ravaged and savaged the country, killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis known
or suspected to have collaborated with the Americans, killing Shias for being Shias, Sunnis for being Sunnis, Americans for being Americans, and anyone else who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
By noon, not one of the American advisers and liaisons left behind remained alive. Many had been beheaded as they screamed. Most
of their bodies were dumped in the river and never seen again.
In the next thirty days more than a million Iraqis died. The General Assembly of the United Nations voted to condemn the violence, and recessed for lunch and martinis. In America, there was no political will to redeploy back to Iraq. And after a few months of
rabid bloodletting, the situation in Iraq calmed to a tense simmer of
sporadic violence and political jockeying, punctuated by the occasional
assassination, while several million refugees fled the country.
Only Kurdistan, in the north, which had thrown up a line of its Peshmurga fighters to keep the southern violence away, remained stable and at relative peace.
In the spring of 2008 America began its quadrennial circus of a national election, and in November elected a Democrat, the Junior
Senator from New York, Hillary Rodham Clinton, as the next president, to the surprise of few.
Her running mate, to the surprise of many, was San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom, whose intelligence, charisma, and reputation as an
indefatigable campaigner for gay marriage and the homeless of San Francisco helped solidify Clinton’s support among liberal Democrats who
only grudgingly forgave her for not openly opposing the Iraq war sooner, and the Clinton-Newsom ticket went to the top with a narrow 50.2% lead over Republican John McCain’s 49.8% of the popular vote, despite, or perhaps because of, Clinton’s and Newsom’s lack of foreign policy and military experience.
America, or a slim voting majority of it, felt it had all the war it ever wanted to see, and Hillary had led her party to a glorious (if narrow) victory with the unambiguous slogan: “Clinton & Newsom: No More War.” Crowds at every whistle stop had cheered and chanted, No more war! No more war! No more war!
At victory parties George Bush, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, Donald Rumsfeld and Condoleezza Rice were hung and sometimes burned in effigy, enthusiastic crowds chanted “No more war!” many times more, and local bands cranked up the theme from the first Clinton electoral victory, “Don’t stop thinking about tomorrow…yesterday’s gone, yesterday’s gone…,” and indeed, it was.
President Bush had been a very lame duck since the 2006 election, and with a Democratic Congress could do little but veto most of the bills it sent him.
The Democrats couldn’t override his vetoes, so for nearly two years almost nothing important had been accomplished by anyone on
the Hill or in the White House.
After the 2008 election it was transition time, flocks and herds of thoroughly demoralized Republican staff began leaving Washington in search of greener pastures, Congress adjourned for the Holidays, Democrats came house hunting, and Clinton and Newsom began the briefings they would get from a fully cooperative Bush administration on the state of the nation and the state of the world they would inherit
and have to cope with for the next four years, or eight, and in those last weeks of November both Hillary and Gavin seemed to age rather
quickly. The exhilaration of the campaign was over, and the weight of a tumultuous world began to settle on their shoulders.
Back in early October, 2006, North Korean President (for life) Kim Jong Il had announced the detonation of a nuclear bomb deep in a tunnel in the stony mountains of North Korea. The seismic signature had been small, and American intelligence at first doubted
whether it had been a nuclear explosion at all. Traces of radioactive emissions were detected a few days later, and the intelligence estimate revised to conclude that it had been a failed test that produced perhaps only 10% or less of the expected yield, only 0.5 to 1.5 kilotons, not the 20 kilotons, at least, that Western intelligence had anticipated.
Kim Jong Il gloated. The deception had worked. The Americans were thinking in terms of long range intercontinental ballistic missiles with huge warheads that they could shoot out of the sky with their sophisticated billion-dollar anti-missile defense systems. He was thinking in terms of small warheads carried by small, medium range cruise missiles that could be launched from many places, and infiltrated close enough to slip in under the radar and hit America’s coastal cities.
On the evening of December 6, 2008, a junior analyst in the National Security Agency was going over routine satellite photo production of ship movements in the Atlantic and Pacific within a thousand miles of the US coasts. Late in the shift he thought he saw something through a haze of fatigue and caffeine, and called a supervisor over to talk.
“Look,” he said, photos up on several computer screens, more printed out and spread across his desk, “See? These boats, not big ships, fishing boats, yachts, they’ve been moving in along shipping lanes for several days, across from the South Pacific toward the West coast, up from the South Atlantic toward the east. Nothing very unusual, they’re all small and slow, and scattered up and down the
oceans, it seems, but if you look at the times and curses…” and he pulled out a chart he had plotted, “They’re approaching so they will all
arrive at about the same time, or all be about the same distance off the coast at about the same time…,” he trailed off.
The supervisor looked a bit quizzical. “Coincidence? Probably. You need more sleep. Too much fun in the night, eh? Let me know if you see something we can do something with.” And walked away.
At 0723 Hawaii time on the 67th Anniversary of the Pearl Harbor attack three old fishing trawlers, about 100 miles apart, and each about 300 miles off the east coast, launched six small cruise missiles from launch tubes that could be dismantled and stored in the holds under ice, or fish, and set up in less than an hour. The missiles were launched at precisely one minute intervals.
As soon as each boat had launched its pair, the skeleton crew began to abandon ship into a fast rubber inflatable. The captain was last off, and just before going overboard started the timer on the scuttling charges. Fifteen minutes later and ten miles away, each crew
was going up the nets into a small freighter or tanker of Moroccan or Liberian registry, where each man was issued new identification as
ship’s crew. The rubber inflatables were shot and sunk, and just about then charges in the bilges of each of the three trawlers blew the hulls out, and they sank with no one on board and no distress signals in less than two minutes.
The missiles had been built in a joint operation by North Korea and Iran, and tested in Iran, so they would not have to overfly
any other country. The small nuclear warheads had only been tested deep underground. The GPS guidance and detonating systems had worked
perfectly, after a few corrections. They flew fifty feet above sea level, and 500 feet above ground level on the last leg of the trip,
using computers and terrain data modified from open market technology and flight directors, autopilots, adapted from commercial aviation
units. They would adjust speed to arrive on target at specific times and altitudes, and detonate upon reaching the programmed GPS
coordinates. They were not as adaptable and intelligent as American cruise missiles, but they did not need to be. Not for this mission.
They were small, less than twenty feet long, and only 18 inches in diameter, powered by small, quiet, fuel-efficient, high-bypass
turbofans, and painted in a mottled light blue and light gray ghost camouflage. Cruising at 600 knots, just below the speed of sound, they
were nearly impossible to see or hear. They came in under the radar until they reached the coast. After that they were lost in the ground
clutter. Nobody saw it coming.
At precisely 0753, Hawaii time, 1353 in the District of Columbia, sixty-seven years to the minute after the Pearl Harbor attack began, the first of six missiles to hit the Washington area exploded in a huge white burst of nuclear fire just 500 feet above the White House,
which disappeared in a mist of powdered plaster and stone, concrete and steel. President Bush and President-Elect Clinton had been meeting with Condoleezza Rice and Mrs. Clinton’s national security adviser, reviewing the latest National Security Estimate, when they instantaneously turned into plasma of the atomic elements that had once been human beings. No trace remained.
Alarms immediately began going off all over Washington, and precisely one minute later the second missile exploded just as it struck
the Capital dome, instantly turning thousands of tons of granite that had one moment before been the nation’s center of government into
thousands of tons of granite shrapnel that shredded several square miles of Washington like a leviathan Claymore mine.
At precisely one minute intervals, four more 3 kiloton nuclear weapons exploded at an altitude of 500 feet AGL above the Pentagon, the CIA headquarters, the NSA headquarters, the FBI
headquarters, all of which were fully staffed in the middle of the day. In five minutes, the government of the United States of America was decapitated, and a quarter million of the people who made the place run were dead, or dying, or had simply disappeared.
Also at 1353 Eastern time, a missile had blown off just above the New York Stock Exchange, in New York City, and thousands of years of collective financial knowledge and experience evaporated in the nuclear flame. In one minute intervals, others had hit the financial
centers of Boston and Baltimore, and the Naval base at Norfolk, Virginia.
Simultaneously, within the same 10-minute window of hell, nuclear-tipped cruise missiles devastated the largest intermodel shipping facility on the West coast at San Pedro harbor, exploded just above the Library Tower in central Los Angeles, and short circuited the
computer technology ghetto of Silicon Valley in Santa Clara County, big time. One exploded ten feet away from the top of the Bank of America
Building in San Francisco and set much of the east slope of the city ablaze.
Another giant fireball flared among the phalanx of office towers along the Capitol Mall in Sacramento, instantly obliterating Arnold Schwarzenegger and the state government of California, the largest state economy in the US, the seventh largest economy in the world.
Two ripped open the heart of Portland, Oregon, one shattered the financial district of Seattle, and the last one turned the Microsoft
campus into a pillar of fire and smoke, wiping from the face of history, in a second, the IT giant that had revolutionized global communications.
It was 0803, Hawaii time. Ten minutes.
Three million Americans dead. And not a trace of the assault fleet remained on the surface of any ocean.
Vice-President Elect Gavin Newsom was in his bedroom at home in Pacific Heights, his window overlooking the Golden Gate and the Marin
bluffs. He thought he heard an oddly loud crack of thunder and saw a flash reflected on the hills across the inlet, but it was a clear day
and nothing else seemed out of place. He continued packing for the return trip to Washington, his second since the election, to continue his transition briefings and begin organizing his staff. His nomination as Hillary’s running mate had come as a huge surprise, and he was elated.
Someone rapped on the door, loudly, twice, and without waiting for a reply the senior Secret Service officer on his detail opened it and stepped quickly in.
“Come with me, now,” he said. Gavin was startled. I need to finish packing,” he replied.
“No time, sir. Something has happened. Very big. I fear. No details yet.
We have to get you out of here, NOW! RIGHT NOW! GO! GO! GO!”
He grabbed Newsom’s arm, swung him around, and pushed him out the door, where two other Secret Service agents flanked him down the stairs and out to a running black Suburban waiting in the garage. They pushed him into the back seat, jumped in, and the driver gunned the engine, out the drive, down the street, tires squealing. Nobody spoke until they were headed over the Bridge, northbound at seventy-five miles an hour, weaving through the traffic which wasn’t yet the gridlock it
would soon become.
“What the hell’s going on?” he finally demanded.
“Okay. This is what I know,” the officer said. “The US has apparently sustained multiple nuclear attacks in the last fifteen minutes, including Washington D.C. and San Francisco. Financial district.
We’re not sure how many, at least ten, maybe twenty. Lots of dead. Got the White House, the Capital, the Pentagon. Our job is to get you on an airplane at the nearest functioning airport, that’ll be Novato, and get you to a safe place. Prestissimo.”
“Where?” Newsom asked. Things were moving way too fast now.
“Don’t know yet. We’ll get orders.”
The Air Force Learjet had been airborne for two minutes when a cell phone buzzed, and the Secret Service captain answered it and handed it off to the Vice President Elect. “It’s Mr. Cheney, sir,” he said.
“Gavin?” Dick Cheney asked. “Yes, sir,” Newsom replied, subdued, for the events of the last hour had sobered up his elated mood
considerably.
“Okay, Gavin. I don’t know what you know, so I’ll tell you what I can. There have been approximately 20 nuclear strikes on
government and financial targets in the US, about an hour ago. No real damage estimate yet, except that it’s awful. A hundred times 9/11,
maybe a thousand times. I happened to be at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, and have moved into Cheyenne Mountain to set up a
temporary HQ, until we get things sorted out.
As you know Cheyenne was vacated by NORAD a few years ago, so we have plenty of space. You will be flown here, nonstop.”
“I know you haven’t a lot of national and international experience.” Cheney had thought of saying that Newsom had none, but Newsom would be too painfully aware of that. He didn’t need reminding. “The President is missing and presumed dead. So is Mrs. Clinton. So you may become the next president, in about six weeks. I don’t know. The Constitution says the Vice President succeeds a president who is dead or disabled, but it doesn’t say what happens if the President Elect dies before being inaugurated. I suppose the Court will have to answer that, if we can cobble one together by then. In the meantime, I will assume you will be inaugurated. You’ll have a steep learning curve, a real steep curve. All presidents do, under the best of circumstances, and these are not the best of circumstances.”
The next day a hard winter storm roared down the West Coast from Alaska, pelting rescue workers in bombed out city centers with
hard, cold rain, that did not let up for a week. People alive but injured or trapped in the wreckage died of hypothermia before they were found.
Two days later, a cold front out of Canada brought heavy snow to the Northeast. Millions were already without electricity, and in a week of subzero weather hundreds of thousands more died. More than four million, altogether. More than one of every one hundred Americans.
Al Qaeda had picked December 7 because it was the anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor, and because, just before Christmas, the Infidel holiday, it would destroy the Christmas shopping
season so important to so many retailers, driving another nail into the national economy of the Great Satan.
And it would destroy the festive spirit of the season for millions of Americans, perhaps for all.
The perfect psyop. Psychological warfare.
And the weather forecasters had predicted severe winter storms on both coasts during the week immediately after disaster.
Al Qaeda leaders had calculated, correctly, that by turning up the violence in Iraq during the weeks before the 2006 election it could achieve an anti-war Democratic Congress that would vote to end America’s wars in the Middle East, and then by turning down the violence
in Iraq after the election of an anti-war Democratic Congress, it could lull America into a false sense of safety and security in anticipation of the “peace in our time” that America’s new ruling party had promised
would follow from what Al Qaeda perceived, correctly, as America’s retreat before the unstoppable determination of the Islamic Resistance Movement, the Jihad. America did not call it that, of course.
The Americans thought they were just ending a bad and illegal war ginned up by George W. Bush to depose Saddam Hussein who had proven not to have WMDs after all, the ones the Americans had never found, the ones buried in Syria. Al Qaeda saw more clearly. It was a capitulation, a de facto surrender of the Middle East to the coming
Islamic Caliphate that would someday rule the world. The martyrs of Islam had beaten the Great Satan to its knees. In time they would cut
off its head.
By Christmas, the American economy had imploded. Inflation soared, unemployment soared, businesses closed, cities that had suffered direct hits became ghost towns. Tax revenues evaporated, leaving state
governments without funds to pay unemployment benefits or teachers’ salaries.
With the New York Stock Exchange gone, stock trading ended, and values plummeted.
Retirement assets and pension funds disappeared in a wink. Nobody knew what to expect. Real estate crashed, and major banks filed for bankruptcy. With the collapse of the American economy, the largest on earth, the most productive country on earth, with just 5% of the
global population producing one third of the global economic output, the rest of the global economy fell into chaos. Oil shipments stopped, food shipments stopped, and in that winter millions of people in third world countries starved to death.
The America era was over.
“In the spring of 1941, Nazi Germany was poised to dominate the earth. France, the Low Countries, Norway, Denmark, Austria,
Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Greece, and much of Poland had been overrun by the Germans. All of Europe, save neutral Sweden and Switzerland, was
in the hands of Hitler’s friends and allies: dictators or monarchs who ruled fascist Italy, Vichy France, Franco’s Spain, Portugal, the Balkan countries, Finland, and above all the Soviet Union.”
“A single German division under General Erwin Rommel, sent to rescue beleaguered Italians in Libya, drove Britain’s Middle Eastern armies flying and threatened the Suez lifeline; while in Iraq a coup d’etat by the pro-German Rashid Ali cut the land road to India. In Asia, Germany’s ally, Japan, was coiled to strike, ready to take Southeast Asia and invade India.
No need to involve the United States; by seizing the Indies, Japan could break the American embargo and obtain all the oil needed for the Axis Powers to pursue their war aims.
“Hitler should have sent the bulk of his armies to serve under Rommel, who would have done what Alexander did and Bonaparte failed to do: He would have taken the Middle East and led his armies to India. There he would have linked up with the Japanese. Europe, Asia, and Africa, would have belonged to the coalition of dictators and militarists.”
“The Nazi-Soviet-Japanese alliance commanded armed forces and resources that utterly dwarfed the military resources that the holdouts, Britain (with its empire), and the United States, could field. The English-speaking countries would have been isolated in a hostile
world and would have had no realistic option but to make their peace with the enemy, retaining some autonomy for a time, perhaps, but doomed ultimately to succumb. Nazi Germany, as leader of the coalition, would have ruled the world.”
“Only Hitler’s astonishing blunder in betraying and invading his Soviet ally kept it from happening.” – David Frompkin, Professor of
International Relations and History, Boston University, writing in What If: Eminent Historians Imagine What Might Have Been (Putnam 1999) pp. 308, 309.
History is made, wars are won and lost, cultures and nations and civilizations come and go, rise and fall, as much by blunders as by
victories.
The failure of many Americans, including many of the leading Democrats in Congress, and some Republicans, to fully appreciate the
persistent, long-term threat posed to America’s liberties and survival, and to the future of Liberal Democracies everywhere, by an Islamic
Resistance Movement that envisions a world dominated and defined by an Islamic Caliphate of religious totalitarianism, and which will fight any war, make any sacrifice, suffer any hardship, and pay any price to achieve it, may prove to be the kind of blunder upon which the fate of America turns, and falls.
Raymond S. Kraft is an attorney and writer in northern California.
Can’t happen, you say . . . . . we’ll see.
Return To USAWakeUp.org
November 11, 2006 at 3:13 pm
Americanwman, that was really intense and scary. I know it’s smart to read that stuff, but it makess me scared and upset. I believe in the Bible and I know things are coming to an end, but I want to live my life. I want to get married and have kids someday. I don’t want to end up getting killed or bombed and have our way of life destroyed. I don’t know what to do to stop it, either. I love America (my name) and I voted Repblican. They arn’t that great either, but they’re better than the alternative. We need a new party. Independant. Strong. Fighters. That’s what we need. I’d join that. Thanks for sharing, but it kind of made me sick.
Also, DJ, I thought about my last response to you(#684) all night last night. Re-reading it, it sounds rude and ignorant to me and I want to apologize. I’m sorry. It reads differently than it was meant. I hope I don’t put my foot in my mouth again, but 4 times just sounded like a lot to me when I can’t even get married once. Do you understand? I really sound like an idiot on hear at times.
Big Jake, I’m really sorry you lost so many friends. I know you’re a smart person, but you must really be smart to do what you do. Taxes and audits. Most people want to run when they see you guys coming. I hate taxes. The only thing I like about tax time is my refund. (Thanks for adopting me. I knew you would! 🙂
November 11, 2006 at 5:01 pm
DJ and Big Jake, I need to draw on some of your experience with life in general. Thursday was a joint meeting with the counselor. Confession session. But before I get into too much, I just want to say how women really do have all the power. You know how guilty I’ve felt because I kept pursuing Amy? What a joke that is. You women are something else. It’s like you have your own little plans of attack on how to get us roped in and we think it’s all our own idea. It’s like you’re all born with it. This instinct on how to get us. I even noticed it in lovesamerica’s post where she says, tell me she didn’t want him to chase her, tell me this or that, whatever it was. She spotted the game right away. Yeah, Amy read my chart. She said she thought I was “cute” and she could tell by the way I was talking to her and looking at her I was interested. She said she figured if I knew she was 22 it wouldn’t go any further. She was right. It wouldn’t have. You know how I told you I bumped into her around town after that? That we’d stop and chat? SET UP. She saw me walking into McDonalds so she came in like she was going there, too. Same thing when she saw me coming out of a unii-mart, and WalMart. She used to drive by the Fire Dept. hoping I’d be out so I’d see her and stop and talk to her. I finally get around to asking her if I could call her. She played the hesitate game but gave me her number. When I called her, I had to caox her to go out. She said when I finally asked her she was terrified. That I was big and intimidating and she was afraid she wouldn’t be able to control the situation. Then she said I was so nice to her, and didn’t force anything, always included her daughter in things and that she got scared that if I found out things about her, I’d dump her. She said she knew I was a lot stronger than her emotionally and that scared her, too. When I’d ask her about her past, she lied because she was so ashamed of it. Get this, she said she did the damage at my house because she saw me with another woman and thought I had been cheating on her all long. I said there was no one else I’d been seeing and I asked her where she saw me. She said I was standing with a dark haired woman on the street and she saw me hug and kiss her. I had to rack my brain trying to figure out what she was talking about and then it hit me. I ran into Angela (Caoline’s cousin) and she told me she had just found out she was having another baby. So I congratulated her. That was it. Amy said I never told her that. I said you didn’t ask and I wasn’t aware you even saw it, anyway. I told her before you flipped out you should’ve done some checking. She must spy on me. This was a hard session for her. She hasn’t been crying, but she did all through this one. Then she gave me $500 to go toward fixing the truck. I felt like shit taking it. I don’t need her money. I told the counselor, and she said she understood that, but Amy needs to do this. She’s a single Mom and has a little girl and I’m thinking it was probably her Christmas Club or something. Then, right in front of Amy, the counselor asks me how I feel. I didn’t know what to say. I just told her I was dumbfounded. She asked me if I could forgive her. Yeah, I can forgive her. But I don’t know if I can do anything more than that. Amy just looks at me and says, Please Zach. That’s not who I am. Well honey, that’s who you were to me. I didn’t say that, but that’s what I thought. Part of me wants to forget about it and start over, but another part says don’t be an idiot. Another thing, the counselor asked me what Amy would have to do for me to continue in this relationship. I just said, that this (the counselling) was a beginning. I did say I don’t like being lied to. And I don’t like being manipulated. Amy just sat there and didn’t say anything. Afterward I took her home. We sat outside and she looks at me and says, what now? All I said was I don’t know. She said she loved me again, and she said Cassie did, too. She said she’d do whatever I wanted her to. I’m not seeing the counselor again, but she is. Amy said she’d give me space and just wait until I decided what I wanted to do, and she wouldn’t bother me anymore. I didn’t see her or hear from her at all yesterday. I’ve been thinking about her a lot. If she was older, I’d probably go for it, but that age difference is such a road block for me. I don’t want her money, either. I feel really shitty about that because I know she doesn’t have much. I want to call her. I know a really nice restaurant in Orchard Park. It’s cozy. They have live music. Good food. I want to call her and take her up there. Tell her that I don’t want to talk about any of this anymore and let’s just go out, relax, have fun and be together. See what happens. I don’t know if I will or not. But I’m thinking. Maybe I’ll wait a couple more hours and call her. Let me know what you experts think.
lovesamerica, I don’t roll my eyes when I read what you say. I was panting the other day when you talked about tearing into me. Really, I get more amused than anything.
November 11, 2006 at 5:35 pm
Zach, you need to run the other way, not walk, run. I’m telling you we women are not all like Amy. Yeah, when we see a guy we’re interested in, most of us will do some light pursuing, but this is way over the top. I’m really concerned for you.
November 11, 2006 at 6:24 pm
Americanwoman:
Regarding the election:
There was a failure of leadership ,in my opinion ,which gave the anti-war Liberals an opening which they exploited. Everybody is not playing on the same team in this country. That ,combined with Republican hubris can be the achilles heal for all of us.
We have to stop thinking like Democrats and Republicans ,Liberals and Conservatives .
We have to start thinking like Americans.
How do we get the job done in Iraq?
1-Declare martial law.
2- Offer the Militias a 72 hour cease fire
to decide if they will become part of the Iraqui Army and Police forces.
3- When the 72 hour period is up ,and no response or a negative response is received,
declare the militias outlawed,go after the leaders with extreme prejudice and exterminate the militias .
4- summary execution for snipers and terrorists regarding attacks on American troops
5- uprisings like Falujah should result in a complete devasation of the city as an example to those who propose future uprisings
6- Dutch Uncle talk with our Nato and Arab Allies -either they pony up and help us or we leave and the ball is in their court. The Sunnis are scared to death that we will leave and they will be at the tender mercies of the she’ites and Iran
7- Start financial investigations regarding War profiteers and Graft -both US AND Iraqi Prosecute unmercifully. Our troops should have the best equipment available. These guys are our sons,daughters ,fathers and mothers.
8-Call me a chauvinist but I don’t believe women should be in combat, especially against this enemy . I am sure they are trained and are as good as the men . Just my personal preference and sorry if I offended anybody.
“Lead, follow or get out of the way…”
General George S. Patton, Jr.
George S. Patton
By Brother Mark Dabbs
Nomination of “Old Blood & Guts” to the Order of the Maltese Cross as a Saint may border on blasphemy or be perceived in a context of extreme militancy. Nevertheless, in review of the life and career of General Patton, I can find no man or woman more inspiring in word or deed than him. I’ve regarded him as a hero since the age of five, and only more so now. I find it difficult to nominate any dead person as a saint for much the same reason as the Old General would, “The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other poor bastard die for his.” In our context, magicians and martyrs are two different breeds; magicians get the job done and live to tell about it.
Fate followed him his whole life. Growing up, Patton was dyslexic and received schooling from home to assist with his learning difficulties until the age of 11. Following high school, Patton attended the Virginia Military Institute in preparation for West Point. He went onto Sweden after winning the American Military Olympics. There, he came in first in fencing against an undefeated Frenchman, the first time in American history. He placed second in swimming, and third in cross-country riding. In pistol marksmanship, witnesses claim that he put two bullets through the same hole. The judges, only required to count the number of holes counted the one and the second as a complete miss — placing him 27th with the pistol and fifth overall; had this been considered otherwise, he would have placed first overall.
He volunteered and served as aide to General Pershing during the expedition against Pancho Villa in 1916 and again in France during World War I. Between wars, Patton read. This is an important point, for Patton had been placed in charge of the newly formed American Tank Corps. Here we find peerage among many generals – Heinz Guderian, the first general to apply the principles of blitzkrieg or “combined arms doctrine” important to the rise, and fall, of Germany. But, if Heinz was the Father of Combined Arms, British General JFC Fuller was the Grandfather. This same JFC Fuller being an important colleague of the Golden Dawn and an associate of Crowley, at least for a time.
It would be impossible to assess Patton as having any relevant awareness of Thelema, or Crowley. But when one looks at his career, his words, his actions, and the principles which he served and for which he fought, one would be hard pressed to find any other possessed of such a Will as his.
Undoubtedly, Patton expressed his mind, openly and without reservation, and had a pronounced dislike for politicians and “generals who would be politicians” (upon which there is comment in Liber AL, Chapter III). To look at his military career simply leaves one amazed at the number of times, despite superior performance, he got what can only be termed “the shaft.”
Units under Patton’s direct command expelled the Axis from North Africa following the sound American defeat at Kasserine Pass, after which he was given command. His unit was placed in reserve for the invasion of Sicily. British forces under Montgomery having made only a few miles of gains in two weeks, forced Patton to appeal to the Allied Command to let him attack — and in a few short weeks, had taken two thirds of Sicily, with continued political pressure to let other “Allied Generals” take key cities first. This happened time and time again.
“Third Army came into the scene suddenly and spectacularly as they broke out of Normandy and raced across France. In Brittany, Patton’s VIII corps drove all opposition before them. They swiftly captured the important ports of St. Brieuc, Quimper, Morlaix, and Nantes. The Germans didn’t know who was in command of the Third Army, but they did know that in seven days the Third Army had stolen 10,000 square miles from their “victorious Reich,” a faster advance than any army in history. They must have suspected that it was Patton, because the Germans always held Patton in higher respect than the Americans. After all, the Third Army’s stunning advance was far faster than the German blitzkrieg.”
“Not allowed to take Argentan and end the war, Patton launched the Third Army towards Paris. The Third Army was now over 350 miles long and 120 miles wide. She straddled France while she waged war in four directions at once, attacking everywhere. In the north in Brittany, the Third Army was attacking Brest and several other fortress cities. Along the Loire, from Nantes to Orleans, it was holding 200 miles of open flank for all the northern Allied Armies. And on its 120-mile Seine front, the Third was enveloping Paris, holding a bridgehead and interdicting the river north of the capital, conducting an aggressive war of movement and carving out bridgeheads south of the city. Yet all these audacious, spectacular, and unmatched achievements were accomplished by an army only three weeks in action.”
Third Army was instrumental in sealing the Falaise Pocket, but was again halted by Eisenhower who insisted that Montgomery be allowed to finish the job – and which ultimately led to numerous Axis divisions escaping to fight again later in the Ardennes Offensive in the Battle of the Bulge. Here again, Patton was kept in reserve, and was purposely deprived of ammunition and gasoline for his audacity and outspoken politically incorrect views. The Allies were effectively forced to give Patton the supplies he demanded, and in three days, Patton had shifted the entirety of Third Army some 150 miles, in the middle of winter, to relieve the American 101st Airborne at Bastogne, and ultimately kill or capture the majority of the Axis offensive operation. Every American general considered this impossible.
Patton’s wartime exploits go practically unmatched. Regarded as an eccentric, we can recall the movie in which George C. Scott portrays Patton standing on a hill overlooking a valley reminiscing about a previous life as a Roman soldier. Outspoken especially against the Soviets, he spoke out against Allied Commanders and spoke pragmatically and idealistically against many politically motivated decisions. He predicted the Ardennes Offensive before it happened and no one listened to him. He predicted how the Soviets would handle Eastern Europe, and no one listened. Patton’s Third Army was sent to clear Austria – and it turned out to be empty, and he then went on to liberate Austria and Czechoslovakia, as far and as fast as he could, ultimately to be relieved of command for overstepping orders in conjunction with inflammatory remarks made against the Soviets.
By the time the shooting stopped in Europe, Patton’s army had inflicted more than 1,500,000 casualties against the German enemy. The only time Patton ever slowed down was when his 3rd Army liberated the Nazi Concentration camp at Buchenwald. When he saw what the Germans had done to the Jews and Gypsies of Europe he was so disgusted that he immediately enacted a strict policy forcing all German citizens in neighboring cities and towns to tour the camps to witness the result of their hateful nationalism. Other generals adopted Patton’s policy upon liberating other concentration camps.
Later, in acting as a military governor he spoke of other violations of principle, “Today we received orders . . . in which we were told to give the Jews special accommodations. If for Jews, why not Catholics, Mormons, etc? We are also turning over to the French several hundred thousand prisoners of war to be used as slave labor in France. It is amusing to recall that we fought the Revolution in defense of the rights of man and the Civil War to abolish slavery and have now gone back on both principles.”
He spoke out many times when it was unpopular to do so – against friends and foes, but mostly against politics and injustices – of favoring one group of people over another and against those whom he thought were not doing their job. His units were invariably green, and made into veteran units in a matter of short weeks and did the job of what multiple more experienced armies could not do in months.
His medals and commendations were extensive:
United States:
American Defense Service Ribbon
Distinguished Service Cross with One Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster
Distinguished Service Medal with Two Bronze Oak Leaf Clusters
Distinguished Service Medal (U.S. Navy)
One Silver Star
Three Bronze Stars
Legion of Merit
Mexican Service Badge
Purple Heart
Silver Life Saving Medal
Silver Star with One Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster
Victory medal (WWII)
Victory Medal with Four Bronze Stars (WWI)
Sons of the Revolution Medal
Great Britain:
Most Honourable Order of the Bath
Order of the British Empire
Enteur Pin of Malta
France:
Croix de Guerre of 1939 with Palm
Croix de Guerre with Bronze Star
Medal of the Legion of Honor
Medal of Verdun (WWI)
Metz Medal of Liberation (1944)
Commemorative Medal, City of Nancy
Commerative Medallion, City of Metz (1944)
Commerative Medalion Cities of Fontainebleau and Barbizon
Gourmier Pin of Morocco (French)
Grand Officer of the Legion of Honor
Liberation of Tours “Patton” Medallion
Liberation Medallion, City of d’Epernay
Liberation Medallion, City of Metz (1918)
Medallion of the City of Rheims
Belgium:
Croix de Guerre of 1940 with Palm
Grand Officer of the Order of Leopold with Palm
Civilian Shield
Czechoslovakia:
Military Cross
Order of the White Dragon
Luxembourg:
Croix de Guerre
Order of Adolphe of Nassau, Grand Croix
French Morocco:
Grand Officer of the Order of Leopold with Palm
Russia:
Guard’s Badge
Order of Koutouzov, 1st Grade
Sweden:
Commemorative Medal of the V Olympiad (1912)
Armiens, Under Officers Skola
Kunge Sodermanlands Pansarregemente (Commerative Token)
Kungl. Krigs Skolan (Commemorative Medal)
Kungl. Upplands Regemente (Commorative Token)
Vatican:
Pope Pius XII Medallion
In his letter to Harbord, Patton also revealed his own plans to fight those who were destroying the morale and integrity of the Army and endangering America’s future by not opposing the growing Soviet might: “It is my present thought . . . that when I finish this job, which will be around the first of the year, I shall resign, not retire, because if I retire I will still have a gag in my mouth . . . I should not start a limited counterattack, which would be contrary to my military theories, but should wait until I can start an all-out offensive…”
On December 7th, 1945, Patton was involved in a car accident, his head hit the railing and his spinal column was separated. Shortly afterwards, Patton though barely conscious was heard to say, “That’s a coincidence…” A Lieutenant nearby asked, “What’s a coincidence?” To which the general responded, “I was going home tomorrow.”
On December 21, 1945, General Patton died of a blood clot in his brain. It was not the way Patton wanted to die. He felt that a soldier should die from “the last bullet, of the last day, in the last battle.” The city of Luxembourg served as headquarters for General George S. Patton’s U.S. Third Army. General Patton is buried at the Luxembourg American Cemetery.
I submit that General George S. Patton fully embodied the Spirit of the Warrior Tradition, on the battlefield and off – against the aggressors and against the oppressors, regardless of the uniform they wore. His numerous reprimands were rarely extended for not complying with orders on the battlefield, but for questioning unjust policies based upon political and ulterior motives and for speaking his mind, without reservation.
General JFC Fuller can be considered the leading Grandfather of Combined Arms Theory, important to us by way of his connection to Crowley and his accomplishments as an occultist in his own right. Fuller, like Patton, was frequently regarded as an eccentric by his peers and superiors. His theories gave rise to Guderian, who was a Soldier’s Soldier himself, regardless of the side he fought on. Rommel, too, was of this same school and same breed as Patton — ultimately Rommel was forced to commit suicide for his involvement in the assassination attempt on Hitler. Patton knew warfare and applied it better than anyone of his time. He expressed himself openly, unpopularly, but for the things he believed to be just.
His philosophy is simple, and the following quotes, in my opinion would stand equal to any held in Liber AL —
If everybody is thinking alike,
then somebody isn’t thinking.
Do your damnedest in an ostentatious manner all the time.
The object of war is not to die for your country
but to make the other bastard die for his
A pint of sweat will save a gallon of blood.
I don’t measure a man’s success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom.
Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.
We herd sheep, we drive cattle, we lead people.
Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.
A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow.
Courage is fear holding on a minute longer
Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.
I do not fear failure. I only fear the “slowing up” of the engine inside of me which is pounding, saying, “Keep going, someone must be on top, why not you?”
CONQUER!
November 11, 2006 at 8:53 pm
Americanwoman, are you serious? Do you think she’s crazy? I mean crazy like she’d hurt me crazy? I’m glad I looked on here before I called her. It made me re-think. Maybe I should give it a week or two and see if she does anything weird. The counselor told me she’s been sheltered most of her life and she’s been raised to believe if she wasn’t perfect (untouched) a man would never marry her. Her father looks down on her and she has a difficult time dealing with that. She said she has very low self esteem and is starved for love and acceptance. I feel very sorry for her, and I keep hearing DJ’s advice telling me not to have a relationship because of sympathy. The truth is, I probably sound like a nut myself, but I don’t know if I want to be with her because I feel sorry for her, or because I have other feelings for her. I’m very attracted to her physcially, you all know that. And she is nice. She’s a lot of fun. We’ve had a lot of good times together. I don’t feel about her the way I felt about Caroline. Caoline made me feel like she needed me, but she wasn’t needy. Amy makes me feel like she’ll fall apart if I leave her. She’s very dependant. And she’s turning into a little tiger too, if you know what I mean. She’s letting me know that she’s available for whatever I want. That’s tempting. I’m not going to take advantage of her. I’m not that kind of a jerk. I really am a decent guy and I know she couldn’t handle me doing that and then forgetting about the relationship. I don’t operate that way.
November 12, 2006 at 1:44 am
Zach:
“No patty-fingers, if you please. The proprieties at all times. Hold on to your hats.”
” A real man does not shoplift the “pooty” from a single mom.”
What do you want to do?
1)do you want to marry this girl?
You probably do not know yet.
a- The age difference
Can you adapt yourself to it?
1 Maturity of the parties involved
Amy is 22 and what you told us about her reasons for damaging your property –
I’d expect that from a teenager. She has some growing up to do. SHE SHOULD BE REFLECTING ABOUT IT. I would expect she must feel pretty childish now that you told her Angela was Caroline’s cousin.
Does she have the maturity to go forward with this relationship?
Zach ,now everybody knows the cat is out of the bag regarding Amy’s age. She knows that you know. How does she feel about the age difference?
How do you feel about the age difference?
You said that you wouldn’t have gotten involved if you had known up front.
Ok lets pretend that I have a magic time machine. Knowing what you now know, you can step into the time machine and go back forarmed with the knowlege of how you feel (or don’t feel) about AMY. Step into the time machine and go back to the beginning. Do you ask her out or not? It is that simple.
Look -its all out in the open now. You know she has feelings for you. What do you do?
Do you think that she will lose interest in you as both of you get older? Or can you both deal with it?
What do you want to do?
Ask yourself the tough questions. We have given you alot to think about but in the end it is up to you.
November 12, 2006 at 3:10 am
Zach, she doesn’t sound very balanced to me (although I won’t go so far to say she’d do physical harm to you). But f she’s showing you this side of her this early … can it get worse? It usually does from what I’ve seen with others. I just can’t imagine damaging the property of a guy I like and then expecting him to hang around and continue to date me. I agree with DJ, too, that guilt and feeling sorry for someone are not good reasons to remain with someone. I liked Big Jake’s time machine question. If I had to do it all over again, I’d pick the same man I’m with. It’s a good way to reflect.
Big Jake, good point about Americans getting back to be Americans (rather than Dems/Repubs), I just think that right now, Repubs are the only people out there trying to do anything serious about containing these terrorists and I really do worry in my dark moments that such a scenario could happen.
November 12, 2006 at 8:17 am
Americanwoman:
What about Sen. Joe Lieberman from Connecticut ? He was rejected by his own party and re-elected as an independent. There are alot of alienated Reagan Democrats out there who have to re-assert their position in the Democrat Party.
I agree with you that’s why I voted the straight Republican ticket.
November 12, 2006 at 2:23 pm
Good Morning. I know I’ve been focused on my personal life lately. I don’t share much with people I know other than you. I want to respect Amy’s privacy. Sounding off on here is good therapy for me.
I like the format you use, also, so I’m going to do it this time.
#678 lovesamerica, I am a registered Republican but like Jake, I’m not too thrilled with any of them. Did vote straight ticket this time. Would dump this party if there was an alternative. I’m a fighter. I’d like to see someone come and try to take me, my family, or my stuff away. I’d rather die than be pushed into submission by any crazy government. I think terrorists are gutless. One on one they’d never beat us. I enjoy Bill O’Reilly, but he’s a bully. He’s a big guy and he’s no sissy, but if he were out in a bar popping off like he does, he’d have trouble. He can do all the mouthing off he wants on his TV show because he’s protected. In the real world, well, I know I wouldn’t take any shit from him. I like Sean Hannity better. He’s more respectful and I don’t think he’d back down from anyone, either. Good one to have on your side in fight.
I’m originally from a small town outside of Buffalo. My parents moved us to Orchard Park, NY when my Dad’s practice expanded. He began to focus on cosmetic denistry (bleaching teeth, veneers) and the majority of his business was coming from Buffalo. Orchard Park is pretty affluent. Very nice town. I have lots of friends there. I do like Buffalo and have thought of moving to Hamburg or Tonawanda. I don’t think I’d ever want to live anywhere other than this immediate area. I like the season changes, it’s close to Niagra Falls and Toronto. Like all those places and visit them frequently.
#681 Americanwoman, sorry about your friend, Lee. Life can hurt. You have your memories. I know what it’s like to lose someone you desperately care for. You’re a strong woman. I know that from reading your posts.
#689, the story is an eye opener. Like I said, if I don’t get killed in the beginning of something like that, I’d go down fighting.
#695,696 Big Jake and Americanwoman. I didn’t see Amy last night, but I did end up calling her. We talked for a long time. This time of year is very lonely for me. Holidays coming up. I hate being alone. I asked Amy if she had ever stalked me. She told me the day we met at the hospital, she wasn’t sure if she’d ever see me again. She said never chased me, but when she saw me, like at the Uni-Mart, she pulled in because she did want me to ask her out, and she wasn’t about to call me. She figured if she bumped in to me once in ahile, eventually I’d ask her. Which is exactly what happened. She said the more she started to care for me the more she was tangled up in the lies and just from converssations we’d had, she thought for sure I’d drop her if I knew she’d been lieing. She said there were many times she wanted to tell me the truth, but she’d chicken out and that’s why she would cry so much. She had taken Cassie to the Dr. when she saw me with Angela. She said that she had been going through hell with all the guilt and lieing and when she saw that she thought I’d been playing her for a fool any way. She stopped at my house to confront me about it and tell me the truth. When I wasn’t there, she said she got so frustrated and angry that she just wanted to break something. Lucky me. She said she’s glad I know everything now and that’s she’s finally sleeping and the knot in her stomach is gone. She said if I don’t want to see her anymore, she understands and doesn’t blame me. I asked her about our age difference. She said she couldn’t care less. I said when I’m 70, you’ll only be 55. I asked her if she saw any pictures of old indians. I said they’re pretty nasty looking. Like withered old prunes. She said she liked prunes. I asked her about a pre-nup. She said she’d sign anything and doesn’t blame any man in my position for wanting to do that. She said she’d like to have a couple more kids before Cassie got much older. That kind of excited me. I’d like to have a couple more kids. I asked if she would want to keep working. She said maybe a day or two, but for the most part, she’d prefer to stay home and take care of the kids and me. (I like that, too.) She’s got me thinking. Cassie, what a little sweetheart. Every year in Niagra Falls they have the Fesitval of Lights. It’s spectacular. They light the Falls up in different colored lights. The whole town, Canadian side, too, is lit up and it’s like walking into a Christmas wonderland. I’d like to see the expression on Cassie’s face when she saw it. I want to take them. Big Jake, you said you haven’t been on a vacation since your Honeymoon. If you could do it, you should surprise your wife, and take her to Niagra Falls during the Fesival. I’m telling you, it’s the place to be during the Christmas season. You’d shocked and awed.
This thing with Amy, I’m a little apprehensive, but I’m getting reeled in again. Pray for me.
Thanks guys.
November 12, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Zach:
Hey Goofus,
WAKE UP CALL!!!!
YOU ARE IN LOVE!!!
And so is Amy!! She must feel great not having to live a lie anymore.
I’m happy for both of you.
November 12, 2006 at 7:22 pm
Big Jake, I know.
I’ve been fighting this too long.
I’m going to go see her.
Thanks, buddy.
November 12, 2006 at 11:39 pm
All,
I’ve got some agency training to attend next week and I’ll be off the radar ’til Friday.
Zach: I’ve given you my two-cents worth. The ball is in your court. The only obstacle I see with you and Amy is the age difference. If you can work through it, go for it, but I still urge caution with her, if not cut and run. I don’t know all of the things discussed in session, I don’t know Amy’s progress, and can only guess at what you might do in the situation. Either way, I will pray for you to be shown the direction that you should go. Just remember that the path isn’t always completely clear. It’s that leap of faith thingie.
Lovesamerica: Your comment to me last post was not harsh or mean spirited. I consider the “experience” of having four marriages the same as battle scars. They simply aren’t visible, but hurt none the less. If recounting my pain can help someone else make a choice for a life partner, I’ll gladly do it. At this point in my life they are only memories that I have learned to deal with.
Y’all take care and may God bless.
November 13, 2006 at 1:48 am
DJ, Thanks for understanding. I’ll miss you next week.
Zach, I don’t know what to say. Good luck. I can’t believe you’re in love her. I really can’t. I don’t understand how someone can lie to you, slap you in the face and pound on you, damage your property, and yet you love them in spite of it. I guess the next time I want someone to be interested in me I should paste them in the mouth first. Then run my nail file down the side of their car. They’d be smitten for life wouldn’t they?
November 13, 2006 at 10:03 am
lovesamerica, You don’t know what to say? I recall asking Big Jake and DJ for their advice, based on their LIFE EXPERIENCE, but, I don’t recall ever asking YOU anything. Like it or not, how I feel is how I feel, and I don’t give a rip what you think about it. There are many factors involved here which you’re not capable of understanding. You’re always complaining about finding a guy, and the ones you want don’t seem want you. Here’s a thought. Maybe, it’s your MOUTH. Think about that.
November 13, 2006 at 2:57 pm
Zach, that was mean and it hurt my feelings. I think you over reacted to what I said. But as long as we’re on the subject, it irritates me that anyone on here can say anything to you but the only one you listen to is Big Jake. Americanwoman tells you to use caution and so does DJ, and you know what? If Big Jake would’ve told you to keep your distance, you would have. It’s your life, do what you want with it. I don’t give a rip, either. But don’t give a cheap shot to me because I’m not jumping up and down for you. I’m a year older than her. And this she’s 22 going on 37 is B.S. to me. What they’re contributing to her maturity is nothing more than deception. It just shows you what a skillful liar she is. In my opinion, whether you ask for it or not, is you’ve been reeled in alright. You only think I have a big mouth because I’m not kissing your butt telling you what you want to hear. Big Jake tells you you love her, and off you go like some horny schoolboy. I’m not the only one that needs to grow up. Think about that! And don’t come back yelling at me. I really like you a lot and I’m just telling you to be careful because I care about what happens to you.
November 13, 2006 at 5:50 pm
lovesamerica:
you wrote:
“it irritates me that anyone on here can say anything to you but the only one you listen to is Big Jake. Americanwoman tells you to use caution and so does DJ, and you know what? If Big Jake would’ve told you to keep your distance, you would have”.
please reread my post 538 , 653,695 and Zach’s reply in #698. Remember that Zach and Amy have an actual relationship. We were only commenting as to its viability. Any dcisions on whether to continue it or end it are the responsibility of Zach and Amy only.
You wrote:
“Big Jake tells you you love her, and off you go like some horny schoolboy”.
Again -reread Zach’s reply #698 He is telling me that he loves her, I just restated the obvious . I have also suggested abstinence from sexual activity.
“No patty-fingers, if you please. The proprieties at all times. Hold on to your hats.”
” A real man does not shoplift the “pooty” from a single mom.”
By the way , We all have urged Zach to proceed with caution and he has.
My key concerns were :
1)that Amy go to counseling – and she has
2)discuss the age issue -and they have
3)end the lies -through counseling ,everything (we assume) is out in the open
4)discuss the childish act of violence- again counseling provided the forum
5)proceed with the relationship (if you want)
with caution -I believe Zach is doing just that.
I’m a year older than her. And this she’s 22 going on 37 is B.S. to me. What they’re contributing to her maturity is nothing more than deception.
No one here ,I especially, have not attributed any of Amy’s actions to her maturity . We have all emphasized her immaturity. You confuse life experiences with maturity. That is not always the case. Hopefully, maturity is gained from life experiences . Through the counseling ,Amy should be able to recognize how immature she has acted and true permanent positive change
will then be possible.
“If everybody is thinking alike,
then somebody isn’t thinking.”
George S.Patton
November 13, 2006 at 8:07 pm
Big Jake, I reread the reply and no where in there does he say he loves her. No where. Unless you’re reading something into the conversation he had with her. I’ve talked to lots of guys about getting married and wanting kids and if I’d sign a pre-nup. Zach and Amy were just talking. Do you think my #702 reply should’ve set him off? And why did he go see her? What was that all about? You think he loves her. I guess I can’t figure out what he loves about her. He’s very vague and very touchy.
November 13, 2006 at 8:09 pm
Big Jake, something else. I don’t think she deserves him.
November 13, 2006 at 10:36 pm
lovesamerica:
One thing you have to learn is that just as women have their quirks so do men.
While Zach didn’t come right out and say he loves Amy,everything he writes says it for him.
Men arn’t tortured souls like women are unless they are in love or on the road to that particular destination.
Hence the expressions:
1)Love’em and leave’em
2)Slam ,Bam ,Thank you Mam
You would say that Zach is intelligent, logical and that he knows his own mind, wouldn’t you?
Then why is he so tortured about this relationship?
Why is the decision to break up so difficult?
I submit that if he didn’t love Amy or at least if an infatuation that could lead to a true and lasting love relationship didn’t exist ,he would have moved on to the next subject by now.
Add into the mix their particular circumstances . They both have had to deal with heartache. They both apparently find that their mutual needs (loneliness, need for a sense of family, recreation etc)are being met by this relationship.
Now they will embark on the second leg of their journey . Are they right for each other?
How do you know who the right person is?
A. This is a very common question. There are many ways we can tell if someone is the right person for us. It’s certainly not enough to trust our feelings as the average person falls in love about 7 times in their life. How do we know when its ‘real love’? Certain things come straight to mind – trust, commitment, compatibility. Here are a few questions to ask yourself about your relationship with your girlfriend/boyfriend to test and see if it is ‘true love’:
Can you comfortably question and discuss your feelings for each other?
Can you spend long periods of time together without ‘making out’?
Do you respect each other?
Do you rejoice at each other’s success without feeling jealous?
Do you allow each other space to be alone or with others?
Can you trust them to keep your deepest thoughts?
Do you accept each other without changes?
Are you comfortable sometimes giving more to the relationship than you get?
Do you look for ways to make the other person happy?
Can you be concerned about the other person even in the midst of disagreements?
Does he/she bring out the best in you?
Does this relationship enhance your relationship with your family?
You need to be answering yes to most of these questions in order to feel confident you have a healthy relationship.
Only time will tell.
November 14, 2006 at 11:25 am
Big Jake, I don’t why we’re paying a counselor when we have you. You’re as smart, if not smarter, than she is. It’s too bad the friendship is limited to this. I’d like to have a beer with you. I see you as one of my best buds.
lovesamerica, what set me off is the fact that you don’t know Amy and seem to judge her and you try to diminish her to me. Talk about reading between the lines, well, your post 702 is basically telling me she’s mental and I’m a stupid ass. That’s how I took it. I do think you say things too quickly. Without thinking first. Amy’s a great girl. I’m proud to be with her. She’s very classy. She’s made mistakes, but haven’t you? Haven’t we all? She’s not perfect, but who is? There’s a lot of things to love about her. Now that she’s back to normal, she’s everything I want. I think the fact that I care so much about her, for some reason, bothers you. Which stifles me, because there’s nothing between us, and there never would be. Ever. Sure, Amy’s 22, but I’ve been seeing her since June thinking she was 29, almost 30. No one can turn off their feelings like a faucet. Just because I find out she’s 22 now doesn’t erase the last 5 months. You, I’ve known for how ever long, have always been 23. You never would’ve been in the running. Sorry. Jake only confirmed what I was trying to supress. And the crack about horny schoolboy, c’mon, that was cheap. Remember the advice you said your father gave you about men? We’re born horny. Just to satisfy your curiosity, when I went to see Amy, I took Josh with me. I took us all out for Pizza. She looked so beautiful to me, and we had laughs and good conversation. The kids enjoyed it. Yesterday she had us over for dinner. I told you, I’m not going to take advantage of this girl. I want things to be perfect for us. The reasons I’m in this arn’t all selfish. I don’t want to do anything that will hurt her or Cassie. If she ends up being mine, I’ll cherish her and she’ll never have to worry about anything again. And someone will feel about you like that someday.
November 14, 2006 at 2:35 pm
Zach, I’m sorry I made you mad. I guess what it boils down to is that I’m just jealous. What you and Big Jake don’t seem to get, is that you think all guys treat their wives and girlfriends like you two do. They don’t. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a guy say, “I’ll cherish her and she’ll never have to worry again.” I’d love to have someone I knew would take care of me like that. To be that important and mean that much to someone. It’s almost like the days when men and women were caught up in love and romance are all gone. That’s what I read in your posts, Zach. Love and romance. You just seem to know how to treat a woman. That’s what makes me jealous. Guys today are crude, rude, and ignorant. They swear in front of you and expect you to have sex with them right away. If you don’t they think you’re weird, or cold, or gay. It’s no wonder Amy fell for you. Who’d want to lose someone like you? She’s already had one loser. She paid for that. I’m sorry I’ve been snotty about it. I really envy what you have with her. Be happy. You both are lucky.
Big Jake, I would love it if you were my Dad. If you were my Dad, and Zach were my husband, my world would be perfect.
November 15, 2006 at 3:54 am
Zach:
you wrote:
“I’d like to have a beer with you .
I see you as one of my best buds”.
The feeling is mutual.
“This Bud’s for you (and Amy)!”
lovesamerica:
I hope you realize that even though you may feel that both Zach and I are God’s gifts to women ,we are at times very very human with all the faults that go along with it.
My wife Carmen isn’t about to propose me for sainthood just yet. I am very flattered that you feel the way that you do.
You are the true romantic. Please don’t overlook the “work in progress” 23 year old guy who is rough around the edges.
Carmen has done quite a bit of buffing and polishing over the years to get my shining armor all nice and shiny .
November 15, 2006 at 5:59 am
angel:
How are you doing?
I was just thinking about you.
November 15, 2006 at 2:06 pm
Big Jake, you said that I remind you of your wife. Do you think I have a big mouth? How did you meet her?
November 15, 2006 at 2:32 pm
lovesamerica:
Yes, you remind me of my wife. No, I don’t think you have a big mouth. I see an emotional need that you have that I attribute to your life’s experiences so far and your youth.
You exhibit a lack of discretion, again attributable to whatever is eating at you.
You desire a sense of security. Knowing that you have not yet found the love of your life is causing you to try a little too hard to find him. This is entirely understandable.
Keep working on your self improvement program.
You are getting better day by day.
As we have said in the past ,have patience and
that emotional need will be taken care of.
How is the diet comming? Thanks to you I am sticking to my exercise plan .We promised to not let each other down,remember?
I met my wife in a college class we both were taking. Wow, that was 32 years ago!
Enjoy your youth ,Amy . It goes by before you know it.
By the way, you mentioned that you are from Camden.
Do you go to the Cherry Hill Mall ? We pass it on the way to Philadelphia.
November 15, 2006 at 5:20 pm
Big Jake, the diet is coming along. I’m not losing as fast I did in the beginning. I’m cheating more, too. By that, I mean I don’t get on the treadmill everytime I eat something I shouldn’t like I did at first. I lost about 10 pounds total. You said you lost 2 pounds. You go to a dietician? Are you okay? I mean, not to be nosey, do you have health problems? I sure hope not.
I don’t go to Cherry Hill Mall. I have in the past, but I don’t go very often. Malls drive me crazy because there are so many shops I never know where to get the best deal and everything seems so expensive anyway. My Mom could never afford to buy us very much and my Dad would yell if we asked for anything. I learned to look for deals early in life. But, I do like to go and look at all the freaks walking around.
How did you get to be so smart about people? My Dad is older than you, and he’s not like you. I don’t think he’s dumb, but he doesn’t talk like you. And I don’t think he cares about people the way you do. Why DO you care so much about people? You don’t know any of us other than on here, but I think you care about us. You met your wife 32 years ago. Did sparks fly when you first met? Do they still fly? Sometimes I think people stay together out of habit. I don’t mean you and your wife, I just know people that have stayed together for kids, or because they have a lot of things together. I AM a romantic. I want to be swept away and live happily ever after. I’m a dreamer, arn’t I? When I watch old romantic movies, I wish it were still that way. The dating game is so disappointing now. I’m old fashoned at heart, and that’s outdated now. Women ruined it. They really did. Now us nice ones who would like it the way it was, have to pay for it.
I’m glad you don’t think I have a big mouth. I know I say stupid things. I can be rude. My problem is, I type when I’m mad or irritated and it just comes out. Then I feel bad afterward. I should learn to have more self control. I will as I get more life experience. (I hope.)
Luv you.
November 16, 2006 at 12:42 am
Big Jake: Thanks for thinking of me.
I’m doing okay. I still have some moments that are hard to shake. I woke up during the middle of the night a few days ago. I was dis-oriented and confused thinking my Mom’s death was just a dream. For a minute, I believed she was still alive. When I finally came to my senses, I just started crying. I was wimpering more than crying, but it woke up my husband. We talked a little bit and he held me until I fell asleep, but I was so exhausted the next day and I kept getting teary at work. Some of my co-workers noticed it, and they’d put their hand on my shoulder or their arm around me. I appreciate their comforting, but sometimes as soon as they do that, it makes me cry even more. I think with Thanksgiving and Christmas coming it is even more sad. This will be the first holiday without her, and it’s going to be difficult. I find myself thinking I still have to go to my Mom’s, or trying to think of something to prepare to take to her. Then I remember she’s gone. It’s hard.
I was downtown last Saturday and there’s a beautiful Catholic church on one of the side streets. I saw some people come out of it, so I just walked up the steps and went in. I’ve been in it before attending, and being in weddings. It’s so beautiful inside. I just sat down in one of the pews and took in all the beauty of the stained glass and the alter. The candles were all lit and it smelled so good. I knelt and prayed. It felt like such a holy place. I thought of you, too. No one was in there but me. A short time later, a young man, I think it might’ve been a priest but he wasn’t wearing a collar, stopped, and asked if there was anything he could do for me. I told him I was just sitting there enjoying God’s presence. He patted my shoulder and told me to sit as long as wanted. It was comforting. God touches us where ever we are.
I read the forum daily and I pray for all these people and all that they’re going through. I don’t always know what to say so I don’t write anything, but I do care so much for all of you.
Thanks again for your concern. God blessed you with a very compassionate spirit, and we all feel it and are blessed by it.
November 16, 2006 at 2:37 pm
#715 lovesamerica
Yes I do go to a dietician . I had a minor heart attack in Sept. of 2001 . It was a good thing that I had been on my exercise program . I noticed one day that I couldn’t complete my treadmill routine and I had some minor discomfort across my chest. It stopped about 5 minutes after I got off the treadmill. I didn’t think too much about it.
When it happened the next day also , I made an appointment with a cardiologist who put me in the hospital. It was a minor Heart attack and I caught it before any major damage was done.
They put a stent in on Thursday and I was back to work that Monday.
you wrote:
“Did sparks fly when you first met? Do they still fly? Sometimes I think people stay together out of habit. I don’t mean you and your wife, I just know people that have stayed together for kids, or because they have a lot of things together”.
Well , I would say that when I first noticed her in class , I was completely mesmerized and
then when she indicated that she wanted to go out with me ,I was very happy. Sparks didn’t fly until our first kiss. Really , it was a very cold January night and I had walked across a wool rug. When I kissed her – Static Electricity! We both laughed.
November 16, 2006 at 5:39 pm
Big Jake, I’m glad you’re okay. I need you. You’ve been exercising a long time, haven’t you?
It’s sweet how you talk about your wife after all these years. I want to believe in marriage forever and true love. No one ever forgets their first kiss. Especially one like yours!
Are you going to stay on your diet on Thanksgiving? I won’t be going home, but I’m going to be with some good friends. Mashed potatoes and stuffing…my downfall. Why is it that everything bad for you is what tastes the best. It isn’t fair. I have sick-a-salad-itus right now. I’d really like a big plate of spaghetti. I’ll be good. A friend told me to use the 80-20 principal. 80% of the time eat right, and 20% eat want you want but in small portions. Sounds good, but I’m afraid once I start eating the really good stuff, I may not stop when I should. It’s terrible to have the fat gene. But it’s coming off.Thanks for all of your encouragment.
November 16, 2006 at 10:38 pm
Big Jake, more confessions. Amy told me the other night one of the reasons why she never wanted to let me make love to her was because she didn’t want me to see her back because she knew I’d ask questions if I did. She showed me her back. There are so many marks on it it makes me sick. Her father used to beat her with a some kind of a rod. She said when he found out she was pregnant he whipped her so badly that she passed out. I asked her why he wasn’t afraid she’d lose the baby. She said she didn’t know, but that his wife always wanted her out of the house and encouraged him to put me out because she was a bad influence on their other two daughters. Her father was especially angry because she wouldn’t tell him who the father was. She said Cassie’s father was 25. She worked in a gift shop, and this guy was from out of town and used to drop off the inventory. They became friends, and he promised when he had enough money he’d take her away.(Amy was a dumb kid falling for a line.) When she told him she was pregnant, he quit his job and split. She never told anyone who it was, and never put his name on Cassie’s birth certificate. He was probably afraid of being charged with statutory rape. She said her single parent status qualified her for a program through the state for getting an education so she chose radiology school because it was only two years. She said her father and step-mom weren’t that nice to Cassie and her stepmom always wanted her to leave. She met Rhonda, the girl here in town, at school and they became good friends and she always helped her out. Rhonda is the one who brought Amy up to speed with make-up, jeans, breaking her into a social world. I’ve met Rhonda. She’s married and has two kids. Seems nice, but seems very protective over Amy. I don’t care. But I do care that this guy can beat his daughter like that and get away with it. Is there anything she can do about that now? You should see her back. Amy said her father never did that to her other two sisters. Just her. And Amy blames the wife. I blame them both and I’d like to turn them in. Beatings like that are something someone else could do to your daughter, and when you find out you kill them for it. My dad seems like a saint now. I’m really pissed about this. Amy seems to take it in stride. That’s it’s over now so it’s no big deal. She said the counselor knows. I told Amy I wanted to meet her father. I have to meet this guy. I’ll be pissed at her if she doesn’t arrange it. I need to talk to him. Privately.
November 17, 2006 at 3:57 am
Zach:
And what would you do if you met him?
Give him a piece of your mind? or get yourself thrown in jail for assault and battery? If Amy is content to let it go ,then let it go.
You have to think about how this all will affect Amy ,Cassie and Josh. It isn’t just you. RUIN YOUR REPUTATION AND YOU RUIN THREE OTHER LIVES .
You also can file a police report and press charges . That would bring the whole sordid tale out in the open and show him to be the phony that he is. This is one sick individual.
But.. and there is a but with this option also.
You have to consider the traumatic effect it will have on Amy and Cassie. Is it worth it?
I don’t think so.
There is a third option.
Have Amy write a letter to her father. The letter should state chapter and verse all the hurts she has endured . She should include all the slights and mistreatments at the hands of her step-mom and the lack of loyalty shown by her sisters.
She should recommend to her father that he should get counseling because he has a severe anger management problem. He should ask God’s forgiveness for the sins of pride and hypocracy.
He should reflect on his treatment of her ,the beatings and the public humiliation. Is this what Jesus would have done?
Then she should write how she is putting her life back together. How happy she is now .
And finally ,she should forgive him and move on.
Don’t be pissed off at Amy. She has been through enough. She is protecting you.
November 17, 2006 at 6:17 am
Angel:
You wrote:
I still have some moments that are hard to shake. I woke up during the middle of the night a few days ago. I was dis-oriented and confused thinking my Mom’s death was just a dream. For a minute, I believed she was still alive. When I finally came to my senses, I just started crying.
The same thing happened to me. I would see something that I wanted to get for my father and then remember that he was dead. What a cold and lonely feeling.
It is not uncommon. I came across this poem.
At night
after I’ve done it all right
after I did all all I could
for everyone who needs me
after the smiles I was forced to make come off
and the weariness hits, and I’m all alone.
That’s when I miss you the most.
That’s when I stop thinking I can do it anymore.
That’s when hope falters and
sadness fills my heart with such astounding force,
it takes my breath away.
It’s hard to believe the sun will be out in a few hours
And I’ll move like I’m supposed to move
And make it look like I’m showing up for this life
This life that took you too soon
and left me with the nights, the horrible nights,
when I miss you the most.
BrisaTrue©
I get great comfort reading from John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Jhn 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
Jhn 11:28 ¶ And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.
Jhn 11:29 As soon as she heard [that], she arose quickly, and came unto him.
Jhn 11:30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him.
Jhn 11:31 The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there.
Jhn 11:32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
Jhn 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
Jhn 11:34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
Jhn 11:35 Jesus wept.
Jhn 11:36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!
Jhn 11:37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?
Jhn 11:38 ¶ Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
Jhn 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been [dead] four days.
Jhn 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
Jhn 11:41 Then they took away the stone [from the place] where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up [his] eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
Jhn 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said [it], that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Jhn 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
Jhn 11:45 ¶ Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
November 17, 2006 at 11:21 am
Jake, I was just blowing off steam more than anything. I would like to meet him, not necessarily to beat the crap out of him, although he needs it. I’m not going to do anything that will hurt my family or Amy and Cassie. Stuff like this just rattles me. I’m not a sissy, but when I saw her back, it choked me up. I can’t believe someone would do that to their own daughter. Even more so at a time when she needs him the most. I’m not pissed at Amy, I’m just pissed. Guys like her father shit their pants when they’re confronted by guys like me. I’ll meet him eventually. And eventually he’ll know what I think of him. How anyone can mistreat Cassie is another sore spot. They never hurt her physcially, but Amy said they were mean to her. Cassie was only a couple years old when she was with them and Amy just wanted to get away because she couldn’t stay and she didn’t want Cassie growing up in that environment. I would love for you to see that little girl. If I could pick a daughter, she would be it. Amy’s never cut her hair, and it’s long. She’s got big blue eyes and Amy always dresses her up. She wears bows in her hair. Sometimes when she’s telling me something, I pick her up and let her stand on my snackbar so I can look her in the eye. I used to do the same thing with Josh. Then she jumps off of it into my arms and wants me to lift her up so she can touch the ceiling. Then she’ll kiss me on the cheek about 50 times. After I met her and was around Amy a few times, Cassie asked me why my parents named me Sack. It made me laugh. That little girl has my heart big time. So does her Mom. I told Amy no one would ever hurt them again. She said she knows, that why she loves me. Thanks for calming me down.
November 17, 2006 at 2:03 pm
lovesamerica:
First ,congratulations on losing 10 lbs.That is no small accomplishment! As far as Thanksgiving goes, you can enjoy yourself without going nutzo with the food. Eat everything you want but limit your portions. Do not deprive yourself .That’s not what this is all about.
have a serving of mashed potatoes ,a serving of stuffing and the turkey -all the size of your fist. Keep in mind that you are saving room for something else. Before you start dinner have a big glass of water.
We use to have ANTIPASTO ,LASAGNA, THEN THE TURKEY AND THE SIDE DISHES. By the time the turkey came out ,who could eat it?
We don’t do this any more, it was so good ,but who could eat like that?
I am going to eat everything in moderation. That’s the best way.
Oh ,and by the way ,you can have that plate of spaghetti once a week for dinner. Just don’t overfill your plate.
November 17, 2006 at 10:27 pm
Wow! Leave for a week and all heck breaks loose! Zach, lovesamerica, don’t make me come up there! ; )
Lovesamerica: I couldn’t agree more with your analysis of the dating world today. A guy wouldn’t DARE suggest that women did it to themselves. %&*# Feminazis!
Why are Zach and Big Jake different? Look “where” they are. They aren’t glued to the TV 24/7 watching ESPN or sports of some kind on the other networks. They (myself included) realize that our families are the most important thing and that there is a world out there. Spending some time with diversionary entertainment is OK, but you need to keep your feet on the ground and your head on straight.
Suggestion: I know it may not be your cup of tea, but have you considered adding some club memberships to your dance card? Book clubs, nature groups, etc. Expand your social circle to increase the number of frogs, um, I mean, fellows you cross paths with.
Here’s one idea, a dinner club for other dieters. I know, that sounds about as much fun as a hangnail, right? Wait, hear me out. First find at least 16 participants. Make four groups of four singles/couples, start at one house/apartment/box under the overpass and rotate once a month. “Host” serves the main dish, the other three bring sides/dessert. After the first quarter, shuffle the group to form four new groups. Folks can add/drop or fall in with others to see if they like it. Benefits: new recipies, fellowship with like-minded (health conscious) people, you don’t have to cook a lot of icky diet stuff (low cal/low fat versions of favorites), and you never know when someone in one of the groups might know someone that they think would like to meet you. We did this at churches we belonged to in the past and had a blast! The dinner club part, that is. We did have jello wrestling on the last meeting of the quarter. Just kidding!
November 17, 2006 at 11:12 pm
DJ!!!! I MISSED YOU!!! BUTTTTTT, I’m not playing fatso’s night out. Sorrrry. The jello thing sounds like fun. I could be talked in to that. I get the impression you all think I’m some blubbery slob, but I’m not THAT big. I really think I’ll be down to where I want to be by Christmas. I DO have a waist. I’m just not the skin flint you see on all the fashion magazines. The size “large” you see in stores for us young girls…hold it up and look at it if you want a good laugh…it looks like it would fit a 3 year old. The fashion people make us feel like tubs. But, I’m not a tub.
Big Jake, 10 pounds is a beginning. I went out and bought a bunch of new clothes and they’re a size 10, so, that will give you a clue how big I am.
Zach, I’m really sorry Amy has had so much pain in her life. No one deserves that. I hope it all works out for you.
Big Jake
November 18, 2006 at 2:49 am
Re: lovesamerica #725. No, no, no! Not Fatso’s night out! Just because one is on a diet doesn’t neccessarily mean you are fat. There are health and MEDICAL reasons to diet. Mind you I mentioned “health conscious” people, not “tubbies.” Sheesh! Quit “trying on every shoe” that crosses your path. My suggestion was to get you thinking outside the box, so to speak.
Like the deal with Zach and Amy, I only have glimpses into your world from what you say. Don’t take what I “say” literally. Adjust it for what works for you and your lifestyle. And, no, I do not (or did not) think you are a “blubbery slob.” Please read my posts, not read into them.
Alright, once more onto the thin ice. I DO believe you have a slight self esteem problem. Hence my alluding to my twist on the saying, “If the shoe fits, wear it.” Please note that “we” make our comments on (at times)sketchy conclusions we draw from limited information in a post. Personally speaking, if I get something wrong or say something that is interpreted as less than kind, it is not meant to be mean spirited, simply constructive critism and/or advice. I don’t sugar coat my comments, but do try to consider how what I say will be received by the intended recipient. Politically correct? Heck No! I shoot from the hip, think on the run, and, being human, trip and fall. Often.
You yourself said you don’t always think about what you say, that you tend to type comments when riled. Nothing wrong with that. Might I suggest that you type a comment, go get a drink of water, gaze out the window for a few, then go back and read over it before you hit send. I guess a good way to look at it is WWJS?, “What Would Jesus Send?” Uh-oh… what’s that cracking sound?
November 18, 2006 at 12:07 pm
DJ, I meant the fatso thing as a laugh. I love everything you write because most of the time it shows your humor. When I first described myself the description didn’t sound very flattering. Then Red Dawn got on asking me if I’d feel funny meeting her because I’d probably feel inferior to her because she’s so attractive. That set me off, because, I thought, SHEESH LADY, just because YOU think you’re attractive doesn’t mean everybody else will! I’m sure my friends are prettier than her! I’ve gotten dumped a lot in the past, especially in High School and college because I wouldn’t drink and have sex. One guy really put the pressure on me and started playing mind games with me suggesting I could be gay. Now that I’m older, if I guy finds out I’m not experienced, they wonder where I’ve been all my life. Te more I look at myself, I don’t really think I’m fat, fat. I’m just not trim and firm and buff. I probably do have a self esteem problem, but in todays world, it’s hard not to. If you ever get sick of Paula, I’m here. (Just kidding. I do think we’d have a good time together. I like to get crazy, and you sound like you’d be a riot.) Maybe I’m not kidding about Paula. 🙂
November 18, 2006 at 12:38 pm
Me again. Forgot to tell you. Remember me telling you my hair is so long I can sit on it? That’s going to change today. I was getting some bad headaches so I went to the doctor. I had some tests run and nothing is wrong. Thank God. The doctor suggested I cut my hair, because my hair is so thick and heavy. So, today’s the day. I’m getting it cut to my shoulders and donating the rest to Wigs for Kids. I’m nervous. But they need the hair more than I do. You guys are the first ones to know. I haven’t told anyone because I don’t want any comments or opinions, good or bad. It’s Thanksgiving week, I have tons to be thankful for, so I’m just going by myself and getting it done. WWJD? I think he’s going to be proud of me. I hope it looks good afterward.
November 18, 2006 at 3:10 pm
Re: lovesamerica # 728. Good for you. The “Locks of Love” program is the one down here. Chat later…
November 18, 2006 at 9:17 pm
OK, I got back before anyone else. As I was saying, lovesamerica, bravo for you to consider such a wonderful program.
I don’t like anorexic women. I prefer someone with curves. Paula is built like that and refers to herself as “Rubenesque.” That refers to the painter Paul Ruebens who painted a lot of scenes with what you would consider chubby women. Serious obesity is also a turn off for me. Gee, I guess I like someone normal looking. There’s that silly little centrist-balance trait of the Libra.
As for if anything happened to Paula, take a number. Now that all the gals I would drool over in my youth have had their fill with bad boys, NOW I’m a keeper. I wasn’t bad enough for them then, but I’m good enough for them now. What a ceramic storage device filled with manure! ; )
November 18, 2006 at 10:01 pm
DJ, I’ll take a number. But remember, I’m young, fresh, teachable and STACKED. Since I have nothing to compare you to, as far as I’d know, you’d be the MAN. You don’t have to try too hard. Now does that give me better odds? 🙂
I’m all done with my crying jag over my hair. It doesn’t look bad. It just feels funny to me. I can’t wait til my friends pick me up tonight. They’ll flip. I alway vowed I’d never cut my hair. Never say never, huh?
November 19, 2006 at 3:43 am
Re: lovesamerica # 731. Merciful Heavens, girl! I have enough trouble keeping up with Paula’s “demands.” Sounds like I’d be dead in a week if I took up with you!
It reminds me of a friend that said he was going to trade his wife in on two 20 year olds when she turned 40. She told him, “Jerry, you’re not wired for 220.” (Explanation: most house wiring is 120 volts. Electric stoves, central air/heating units, and water heater circuits are 220. If you plug a 120 appliance into 220 it will burn out. Quickly!) That’s me. I’d burn bright for a few hours then trip a breaker. I appreciate the spirit of the offer, but I can honestly say the age thing is a problem for me.
Paula asked me a while back if I’d marry again if she passed on before me. I answered “Most likely wouldn’t; I don’t want to train another one.” I’m too old a dog to learn new tricks, too. You do make me feel good, though.
As for your weight, let me close with a saying Paula’s ex said to her. A lithe, modern, chrome chair looks nice, but after a hard day’s work, a guy wants to settle in to a plush easy chair. Don’t go too far on the weight loss thing. Man! There I go with that extremist thing again!
Disclaimer: The author of this post has had more than his share of adult beverages this evening. Please disregard any previous boorish comments or questionable statements.
Thank you.
The Morality Police
November 19, 2006 at 6:02 am
check this out!
http://patriotfiles.org/civilizationcalls.htm
November 19, 2006 at 6:23 am
You know with all the troubles and tribulations we all have in our daily lives ,we all still have alot to be thankful for living in this great country of ours.
I want to wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving.
http://sagebrushpatriot.com/america.htm
November 19, 2006 at 6:57 am
I came across this shortcut on the Pledge of Allegience by Red Skelton made when we only had 48 states . It is very prophetic. Check it out.
http://patriotfiles.org/Pledge.htm
November 19, 2006 at 7:05 am
correction on post 735
Red Skelton made the recording in 1969 not 1958.
November 19, 2006 at 7:32 am
Audie Murphy, American
http://oldbluejacket.com/AudieMurphy.htm
November 19, 2006 at 7:56 am
Let’s go back to a time when everything was
well… Black and White….
http://objflicks.com/WhenLifewasInBlack&White.htm
January 18, 2022 at 6:02 am
November 19, 2006 at 1:43 pm
Big Jake, DJ, Angel, you guys arn’t going to believe this. I am flipping out!! I went out with some of my friends last night. I met this guy. I was coming out of the ladies restroom and I was yacking with my friend and not paying attention. I ram right into him and almost knock him over. He slams into the guy he was standing with, and that guy loses some of his drink. Anyway, I thought they were going to be mad, but they were very nice about it. I told the guy I would buy him another drink. He said, no, forget about it. No big deal. The other guy, says, let me buy you one. He was soooo cute. I said, sure. I had had a couple before this and I don’t drink much so the few I had gave me a buzz. I was in that “I don’t give a crap what happens here mood”. Anyway, we start talking,dancing, kidding around. He’s Italian, a weight lifter. He’s taking something, creatine, I think, but he says he can’t drink because he’s taking that. So, I was relaxed and I’m so used to nothing ever going anywhere that I just thought I’d have fun. Then, I got in this crazy mood because he was asking me if he could have my number and if he could call me, and I said, “Look, I’m 23, a virgin & that’s not about to change for you. So, if you got any ideas about anything happening after hours, cool down. I don’t want some guy looking for a quick piece. I’d like to get married and have kids. Do you still want my number?” He started laughing and said hell, yes. Get this Angel, he’s a med student, and he goes to Emory Univeristy. He’s 26. So, I give him my number and a couple hours later my friends drop me off. I get a phone call, this morning, 7:00 am, this guy wants to pick me up and take me out to breakfast!!! I am so totally shocked. When I picked up the phone, he says, Hey, remember me? I’m so nervous I think I’m going get the poops. He’s picking me up in about 1/2 an hour. I cannot believe this guy really called me. Maybe I’m being rewarded for cutting my hair and giving it to kids. I’m flying.
November 19, 2006 at 6:28 pm
lovesamerica:
Well ,Well,Well… How do you like that!
“When you least expect it ,your elected,
It’s your lucky day,
Smile … ”
“he’s a med student, and he goes to Emory Univeristy. He’s 26.”
November 20, 2006 at 2:52 am
I guess we might be “seeing” less of lovesamerica for a while! ; )
Re: lovesamerica # 739: I hope you may have found a “keeper.” OK, no one else has asked by now. How was breakfast? Or shall I mind my own business? Either way, I wish you (and him) the best.
November 20, 2006 at 11:05 am
DJ, what do you mean…none of your business?? What’s the matter with you?? I want it to be your business. I’m glad you’re interested. You and Big Jake are like the fathers I’ve never had. So like it or not I’m making it your business so you can help me with the experienced guidance I need from a male point of view.
Breakfast was wonderful. You’d be proud of me, Big Jake. I ordered a cup of mixed fruit, a bagel with cream cheese. and hot tea. We talked a lot, and he’s even cuter than I remembered. His name is Mike. He’s probably 6 feet, but I’m not sure. He’s a lot taller than me, and he’s stocky. He’s got big arms. I like that. Big hands. I like that. Brown hair, brown eyes. He’s really cute. He’s got a nice smile and he likes to crack jokes. But he does have a serious side, and he’s concerned about our country. He doesn’t like liberals. He doesn’t like the progressive movement. He’s very traditional and has concerns about the decline of the family. The affect it has on kids. He’s catholic. He believes in God and Jesus and thinks it’s important to have them in your life. He says he prays everyday. Especially before his tests!! He doesn’t like passive people. He seems like a “take charge” kind of guy. I find that real attractive. It does give you a feeling of safety being with someone like that.
Since you’re both father’s of daughters, I want to ask you both something. What is this pre-occupation men have with sex? Joe eventually got around to asking me if I really was a virgin. When I told him that was the truth, he was fascinated with it. I asked him if he thought I was weird now. He said, no, that he found it refreshing. He also told me not to change. I’m not sure what he meant by that. Like, does he look at me like a sister or something? I WOULD change under the right circumstances…like marriage, a future, you know, that kind of thing. I’m not sure what he meant by that. He also said he noticed last night that I didn’t swear at all. I told him men don’t treat women like lady’s anymore, and he said men will treat a woman like a lady if she acts like one. I asked him if he was going to treat me like a lady, he smiled at me and said, arn’t I? We drove around for awhile and we stopped and walked around the park. I didn’t get home until early afternoon. When he brought me back home, he said he really enjoyed being with me and he’d like to keep seeing me. He kissed me on the cheek. (I was hoping he would kiss me….bummer) But, he didn’t. He called me last night and we talked some more. Actually, I was on the phone for over 2 hours. I’m getting infatuated because he’s really smart, and he likes to laugh and joke around. Plus, he’s so cute and he’s got a great body. (I hope I don’t sound like a sleeze saying that, but he does.) I can’t wait to hug him.
Anyway, he asked me if he could have my work number and my cell number. So, he must be going to keep calling. I’ll be bummed if he doesn’t.
It’s early. I was so “high” about this I kept waking up last night. I finally got on here to see if anything was going on.
Love you guys.
November 20, 2006 at 11:10 am
Sorry, his name is Mike. Joe is his buddy that got the drink spilled on him and we were talking about that, too. I’m all stupid today.
November 20, 2006 at 11:52 am
you wrote:
“He’s very traditional and has concerns about the decline of the family. The affect it has on kids. He’s catholic. He believes in God and Jesus and thinks it’s important to have them in your life. He says he prays everyday. Especially before his tests!! He doesn’t like passive people. He seems like a “take charge” kind of guy. I find that real attractive. It does give you a feeling of safety being with someone like that.
Since you’re both father’s of daughters, I want to ask you both something. What is this pre-occupation men have with sex? Joe eventually got around to asking me if I really was a virgin. When I told him that was the truth, he was fascinated with it. I asked him if he thought I was weird now. He said, no, that he found it refreshing. He also told me not to change. I’m not sure what he meant by that. Like, does he look at me like a sister or something? I WOULD change under the right circumstances…like marriage, a future, you know, that kind of thing. I’m not sure what he meant by that. He also said he noticed last night that I didn’t swear at all. I told him men don’t treat women like lady’s anymore, and he said men will treat a woman like a lady if she acts like one. ”
in post 620 I wrote:
“A guy who wants to get married and settle down would love to have a girl who saved herself just for him.
Everybody remembers their “first time”. If a guy is lucky enough to have a girl who thought he was so special that she shared her first time with him, well… he is one lucky guy.
They will have one special relationship.
Anniversaries take on a special meaning. Romance becomes a part of everyday life.
If they are careful ,life in general becomes a shared adventure with its ups and downs, troubles and triumphs . It takes on a special meaning. You care about your spouse. You put your spouse before yourself. And if you are lucky and kids come along ,well the love grows exponentially.
But you have to work at it ,guard it as if it were a flame in a windstorm and you were out of matches .
I wish that for you…. ”
I think you found him. Time will tell.
November 20, 2006 at 3:04 pm
Big Jake, THANKS. I hope he’s the right one, but we don’t really even know each other yet. He’s a talker. Which is good for me, because I like to talk. He actually listens to what I’m saying. So, you don’t think he thinks of me as a sister or someone naiive? I’m glad. He just seemed a little, I don’t know how to say it, surprised I guess, about the virgin thing. I never know how to take a person’s reaction when I tell them that because they always act shocked. The truth is, I’ve never found anyone I wanted to do that with. Even guys in the past, that I’ve liked, I just never wanted to do that. I’m curious about it, but I’m really scared to death of it, too. I know Mike’s not one. Because when he got done asking about me, I asked him if he was. He laughed. All he said was, “let’s not go there. It would just lead to more questions that don’t matter now.” Hmmmm. Makes me think. I hope I don’t turn into the jealous type.
November 20, 2006 at 3:21 pm
Big Jake, I just thought of something. I hope that’s not the only reason he’s interested in me. Because helooks at me like some kind of a challenge or something. That would really suck if that’s it.
November 20, 2006 at 5:50 pm
lovesamerica:
From what you told me , he fits the catagory of someone who wants to settle down, but just not yet.
Let me explain. You mentioned that he is Italian, goes to church, says his prayers regularly, is family oriented, is a gentleman .
When he is ready ,he will be looking for a nice girl to bring home to the family.
The question in my mind (and yours) is -“Is he ready?
OK -Let’s tackle it. You mention that he is 26,
and a med student. Ok – If he graduated college at 21-22 that would place him in year 3 or 4 of Medical school. Most programs run 4-6 years inclusive of residency. He sounds like he is right on target.
Most med students do not have time for chasing girls. When a prize catch jumps into the boat
you don’t throw it back,you say thank you, God.
Remember your qualities from my post #469?
1)You are honest.
2)You are not stuck up/
3)You are intelligent and can hold someones interest in meaningful engaging conversation
4)You have opinions and are not bashful about expressing them
5)you have a vibrant personality, your personal magnetism draws people to you.
6) you are passionate about everything
7)you care about other people
8)I venture to say that if by your own account ,you are not drop dead ,traffic stopping gorgeous you are most definitely (it is mandatory that you choose one of the following descriptions:
1) “cute”
2)”attractive”
3)pretty
4)a fine lookin’ woman
5)hubba hubba
you chose 1)cute
What’s not to fall in love with?
Be yourself.
you wrote:
“I hope that’s not the only reason he’s interested in me. Because he looks at me like some kind of a challenge or something.”
He does look at you as some kind of challenge.
But he also looks at you as some kind of prize.
Have fun but be on your guard . He will try ,it’s human nature to get caught up in the moment.
Sounds to me that you have to let him know you care for him without compromising your values. He will respect you for it.
If he prays everyday and is a devout Catholic, he believes it is a sin to have premarital intercourse.Down the road, if it gets serious, you have to have the talk about waiting until the wedding night. But then that is your personal business.
November 20, 2006 at 8:01 pm
Big Jake, I really don’t know what I’d do without your input. Everything you say is perfect.
Mike called me at lunchtime. He told me he keeps thinking about me and he asked me what I was doing for Thanksgiving. I told him I had been invited to spend it with a friend and her family. He said, “Oh.” Then I asked him why. He said he was going to invite me to go with him to his Grandmother’s. I didn’t say anything, but I told him we’d talk about that later tonight. Jake….I’d rather do that!!!!! Would it be rude to break my plans with my friend? My friend is kind of touchy about things like that. I don’t want to sound too eager to Mike, either. I don’t know if he’s sweet talking me or what, but he told me he wanted to introduce this beautiful girl he met to his family. Me???? Beautiful???? He told me yesterday I had the prettiest eyes he’s ever seen. I’ve never thought that way about myself. I told him I was trying to cut back on sweets and eat healthier and I did ask him yesterday if he thought I should lose weight. All he said was, “you look fine to me.” So I left it at that because he added that men hate those kinds of questions because no matter what they say it will get them into trouble. He reminded me of DJ because he said he’d take slightly over weight to skinny any day. And I think he must be a devout catholic. He asked me if I would be interested in going to Mass with him. (I would be interested in going ANYWHERE with him.) I told him I would go. He was glad.
Talk to you later….
November 20, 2006 at 10:08 pm
lovesamerica:
I wrote:
“Let me explain. You mentioned that he is Italian, goes to church, says his prayers regularly, is family oriented, is a gentleman .
When he is ready ,he will be looking for a nice girl to bring home to the family”.
You wrote:
“Mike called me at lunchtime. He told me he keeps thinking about me and he asked me what I was doing for Thanksgiving….. Then I asked him why. He said he was going to invite me to go with him to his Grandmother’s”.
Methinks the young doctor-to-be is ready!
(Damn,…..I’m good!)
Thanksgiving weekend is four days last time I checked. I don’t think it is cool to break your friend’s invitation on such short notice.
How far away is Mike’s Grandmother vs your friends house? If it is close maybe Mike can pick you up at night and bring you to Grandma’s for coffee and cake.
If he is going home (out of state) logistically it is impossible.
November 21, 2006 at 12:55 pm
Big Jake, your are definitely good. I’m going to keep the plans with my friend. I told Mike last night that I appreciate the offer and I would love to, but it wouldn’t be right. Dinner at my friend’s is 3:00, dinner at Mike’s grandma’s is 4:00, so after I clear it with my friend, Mike said he could pick me up around 7:00 and I could have dessert with his family. He’s from Georgia so most of his family is right around there and they’ll be at his grandparents house. I’m excited about meeting them. He said they always have fun at Thanksgiving.
I’ll let you know how I make out. (I hope I make out…hahahaha. JUST KIDDING!!!!!)
Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!
November 21, 2006 at 1:20 pm
lovesamerica:
I’m so happy for you.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving!
November 22, 2006 at 12:51 am
Lovesamerica – I am SO happy for you! He sounds like a good guy. Take it a little slow and you’ll know for sure. I’d be proud to have you for a much much younger sister or daughter. See, good things do come to those who wait! Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. I’m heading over to Europe (Germany and Italy for a few days and am very worried about the flight – so Lovesam if your new beau has family in Northern Italy and would like us to check in on them, let me know by tomorrow where they are). Check this site out http://www.cpmsglife.org/tg/2006tdm1.html
November 22, 2006 at 3:50 am
It is so wonderful to read back after some time of what all of you guys are going through.
lovesamerica–
WONDERFUL for you! I hope you have the best Thanksgiving ever with your new beau. Trust me, after all I have read here tonight, I understand where you have been coming from and what you need.
americanwoman–
My heart and soul go out to you. I hope you enjoy your vacation away. I wish I could go with you…
zealot–
I am so happy that you are giving Amy the chance I feel she needs. You are in love with her and she with you. Sometimes things are more obvious to your friends than to youself. Keep the faith.
Big Jake and D.J.–
You both are so full of insight and wisdom. D.J., your humor and self-deprecating styled wit are appreciated from here. Your wife is truly blessed.
Big Jake, your concern and big heart for your fellow man defies description. I wish I could have a number of people in my life like you.
As I have read through all of your individual posts tonight, one thing comes to the forefront of my mind. I have been honest here in my comments and thoughts; I have not shared anything of myself. Many times when I am locked into my own mind day after day, I take forgranted that just what I say and show is understood and comprehended.
You guys have shared so much of yourselves and I feel as if I have presented less than. Sure, thoughts, opinions, an ego. But nothing revealing or personal.
All I have stated throughout is true. But to the core of the truth, I’m so lonely to the depth of my soul.
I do have a good husband in many respects. I have a few good friends. I do not have shallow friendships. Many things have occured in the last two years of my life. Many choices I made for better or worse. I have been shattered by them and am still recovering. I’m sorry, guys. As honest as you have been, as I have always viewed honesty as the greatest of all human attributes aside from unconditional love, I have been less honest than my previous standard would have insisted I be. In other words, I was an open person before, completely so. Now, I am afraid to be.
I say this to you guys because I have been following the dialogue all along and it is a place where one can be anonymous. Souls can touch through the internet, where they can never touch through the facades of reality. Sounds like an oxymoron, right? You guys move me.
November 22, 2006 at 4:05 am
All,
I, too, am heading out for the holiday. None of the kids are coming in for Thanksgiving, I’ve got my AFRES annual tour to do 27 Nov – 8 Dec, so I suggested to Paula that we take a slow trip to my base and fly her home from up there on the weekend. So, Thanksgiving day in San Antonio, tour Sonora Cavern on Friday, Saturday to Lubbock to the airport, and I’ve got 1 1/2 hours more to Cannon AFB, NM. We both get Sunday to catch our breath and get ready for the week.
lovesamerica: No I didn’t forget you. Been busy with pre-travel plans. As the others replied, so happy to hear that Mike is an OK guy. Best of wishes with the relationship.
I’ll try to get on-line once at Cannon to see how y’all are. ‘Bye for now, Happy Thanksgiving, and may God watch over us all.
November 22, 2006 at 12:29 pm
Hi. I haven’t forgotton any of you, and I certainly wouldn’t go in to Thanksgiving without wishing all of you my very best.
Amy and I are doing great. We’ve gotten very close and she has told me so many things about her previous homelife. She really is 22 going on 37. She’s still young, but she was robbed of enjoying her youth.
We’re spending Thanksgiving at my sister’s and then my former in-laws. I wouldn’t miss Thanksgiving with them for anything. Josh is going to stay with them until Monday. Caroline came from a large family and he has lots of cousins and 2nd cousins on that side of the family. He loves going there and is excited about it.
I’m taking Amy to the festival in Niagra Falls this weekend. We’re leaving Friday morning and coming home Monday. The place is awesome this time of year. I can’t wait for her to see everything. We’re going to do some Christmas Shopping and enjoy the sights. She’ll really enjoy it. We’re going to stay on the Canadian side. When they blow off the fireworks over the Falls, on that side it’s almost like they’re going off over your head. We’re going to take the kids up to see everything before Christmas, but first, I want to share it alone with her, without the kids. We need a break from everything. I love her.
Big Jake. I’m very thankful for the friendship that’s grown between us. You know more about me than my friends. It’s helped me a lot being able to express myself on here, say anything I want and still be “anonymous”. You’ve helped me a lot and I feel like you’ve stood by me through come crucial times. I wish I could put a face on your name. Thanks for everything.
DJ. You, too. You have a lot of wisdom and I am thankful for your insight and humor.
Red Dawn, American Woman. Thanks for your “experienced” womanly points of view. It’s helped. The guys are always to the point in a logical way. You two think with emotion. You probably know I’m going to marry Amy. I haven’t asked her yet. Give me some romantic ideas on where and when. I want it to be something very special for her.
lovesamerica. As you would put it, what can I say? Looks like your knight has finally come on the scene. I guess we’re through for good now. Keep him feeling like a knight, and he will cherish you forever.
God Bless you guys. I’ll be back in a few days. Big Jake, there is something else I want to share with you that will give you a chuckle. Amy and I were talking about finding a nice church to attend regularly. We’re going to try several before we make a decision. I suggested trying the catholic church. She said her father always taught her that was the biggest cult in the modern world and it would be a sin to participate in anything with catholics. I gave her a funny look and then we both burst out laughing. Imagine that crazy, child beating, hypocrit having the nerve to say something like that. That guy needs a major wake up call.
Happy Thanksgiving
November 22, 2006 at 1:28 pm
Red Dawn:
I have said this before.
We are a family here. You are a part of it.
We are here for you.
How can we help?
November 22, 2006 at 2:06 pm
Zach,
I’ve got to tell you something ,Bud. I grew up having only one other sibling ,my sister who I love dearly. You ARE the brother I never had.
I am so happy to hear that everything is working out with Amy . You can give her back her “youth”. She is only 22.And now she has someone to experience happy times with and a ready made family,and a loving extended family.
Enjoy the Falls with Amy. You guys need some private time together. We know you love her. It is great to see that you know it too!
Wishing you both a Happy Thanksgiving!
Hug those kids for me.
God Bless,
Jake
November 22, 2006 at 2:23 pm
Angel:
How are you?
I was thinking of you.
It is going to be tough this first Thanksgiving without your Mom. It was tough for me when I lost my Dad.
I don’t know how you feel about the information I posted about the “Communion of Saints” but I
truly believe it. I hope it gave you comfort.
I really do believe that your Mom thinks about you ,prays for you and is still there for you in times of need and in times of joy. Love never dies.
I know you believe in the Resurrection.
Please enjoy your family this Thanksgiving and know that you are in our prayers.
God Bless,
Jake
November 22, 2006 at 8:35 pm
Big Jake: Thank you again. I wasn’t about to not wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving. I was pleased to see you were thinking of me again.
I enjoyed the information you posted. I felt comfort in the scriptures, also. I have been reading the Bible daily for several years. I find great comfort knowing that Christ defeated death, and eventually I will be reunited with my Mom. This Thanksgiving is going to be very different. My Mom was a wonderful cook, and made the best blue ribbon apple pie. She gave me her secret years ago, and I’m making the apple pies for tomorrow’s dinner. I get teary eyed and periods of sadness when I think about tomorrow without her, but in my heart, I believe she’ll be there with us.
lovesamerica: This is truly an exciting Thanksgiving for you. I’m so happy for you. See, I told you, there are Dr.’s & Lawyers graduating from schools all the time. I hope this is all you expect. He sounds nice. Italian people are usually very family oriented, so I’m sure they’ll be making you feel like you’ve belonged there all along. God Bless, honey.
Zach: Good for you. You came to terms with your heart and now you have an exciting future to look forward to. I’m glad you hung in there. It’s probably wonderful for her to have a man treat her with decency, respect, and value. I’m happy for you both. Hug her often, and tell her everyday you love her. When do you plan on asking her to marry you?
American Woman: I’ve missed you and Red Dawn. I’m not a frequent poster either, but I do try to read and keep up on everything everyday. I’ll be praying for safe travel for you. I’m sure you’ll be just fine.
God Bless you All, and have a wonderful Thanksgiving. My husband bought me the movie It’s a wonderful life last year. It’s always been one of my most favorite movies. I’m going to make popcorn, watch the movie and cuddle up on the couch with him later. I thank God for all the blessings in my life.
November 25, 2006 at 3:35 am
Big Jake–
I swore after I typed that last message I wouldn’t come back here again because I was so humiliated by it. Even though I said nothing. I will try to say things over a period of time as I can.
Thank you for telling me that I belong. That means so much to me.
Zach–
WONDERFUL!!! Where to propose? Where is the place that means the most to you guys? I am so completely happy for you two!
Angel–
Sure wish I could have been at your table! I love apple pie! I was supposed to go to my sister’s house in Atlanta but something came up that prevented us from going. First Thanksgiving in my life that I spent at a restaurant. The food was decent but not quite the same.
November 25, 2006 at 4:11 am
Angel–
Try to appreciate the calm, steady, peaceful moments in your life. I know I would be most devastated to lose my mom. She and I are so much alike though we disagree often. But we love one another so much. I am so sorry for your loss. I do not want to even think of losing mine. Know that she loves you.
November 25, 2006 at 6:16 am
Red Dawn:
You wrote:
“I swore after I typed that last message I wouldn’t come back here again because I was so humiliated by it. Even though I said nothing. I will try to say things over a period of time as I can.
Thank you for telling me that I belong. That means so much to me.”
You’ve got to be kidding me! YOU are the reason we are all still posting to this board.
Go back to post 375. YOU saved this forum!
I again say with all sincerity that YOU ARE A PART OF THIS FAMILY!
Happy Thanksgiving!
God Bless.
Jake
November 26, 2006 at 1:04 am
Red Dawn: When I first started posting here, I felt at times that I had intruded because you, BigJake, AmericanWoman, DJ, Zach, and lovesamerica had such a bond. You have all made me feel very welcomed. Especially Big Jake because his personality just reaches out to everone, for which I’m grateful. I feel like I know most of you, because you have shared so much of yourselves. I am private to a degree, but I notice that Zach and lovesamerica “let it all out” and I feel like they really are family, and I find myself thinking about them and praying for the problems they’re going through. The truth is, I could pass them both on the street and wouldn’t even know it. I guess what I’m trying to say, Red Dawn, is that you have nothing to fear here. No one can identify you. They only know what you share. It would probably be very good for you to let us help you. Big Jake helped me immensely with his thoughts, and the scriptures he posted. It was good for me to type out my feelings without constantly breaking down in front of my husband and son. So, it is helpful. I think the others would agree.
I had a conversation with my brother and sister in law. I haven’t told anyone about this forum or that I even participate in it. They told me lots of people get on these things and pose as someone else, or lie about themselves. That hurt me. Because I would really hope that Big Jake, DJ, Zach, lovesamerica, AmericanWoman, and YOU are who you say you are. I have grown to care for all of you and I enjoy reading your posts. My brother in law was just pointing out how several people he works with, and even my own nephew plays with these things. I’m real. I AM who I say I am. Nothing more. Nothing less. And I hope all of you are, also.
Anyway, my Thanksgiving was very nice in spite of not being able to share it with my Mom. My Dad passed away when I was 14. My brother had my Mom’s and Dad’s graduation pictures out and we all paid a special tribute to them. We held hands and prayed for our country, our troops, and that God would open the eyes of those we love who don’t know Him yet. And we all thanked Him for all of His wonderful blessings. We even thanked Him for the things in our lives that are unpleasant. Things we don’t understand. We are at peace, because we know He is in control. There is great comfort knowing that.
Big Jake……did you choose your name from a John Wayne movie????
I hope you all had a wonderful holiday.
November 26, 2006 at 7:51 am
Angel:
You asked:Big Jake……did you choose your name from a John Wayne movie????
Yes,Angel , a John Wayne movie by the same name.
One of my favorites.
Plot Summary for
Big Jake (1971)
The McCandles ranch is run over by a gang of cutthroats led by the evil John Fain. They kidnap little Jacob McCandles and hold him for a million dollar ransom. There is only one man who is brave enough and smart enough to bring him back and that man is Big Jake.
Summary written by Christopher D. Ryan {cryan@direct.ca}
Wish I was half as smart and half as brave.
…..Wouldn’t be bad!
November 26, 2006 at 1:24 pm
Hi! I hope you all had a great Thanksgiving. I DID!!!
Big Jake, I met Mike’s family and they are the nicest people. His grandmother hugged me as soon as I came in. She’s so round and cute. He’s got 2 sisters that are both married with kids, and he’s got 2 younger brothers. One has never been married but he has a 3 year old son, and he has another younger brother. They are very nice. His grandma’s house was small, and a little crowded with everyone there. I was nervous and it got so hot in there that Mike and I went for a walk. When we got back to the house the family decided to move the party to his parents house. Now, that’s a house. It’s big, beautiful, nestled in the woods and you have to cross a beautiful covered bridge to get to it. They have a large basement and the family is very musical. They play guitars, drums, keyboard. Mike plays drums and bass. They have a nice fireplace in the basement and everyone was singing songs. It was nice. His Mom and Dad are really nice. They asked me a lot of questions about myself and my family. They were surprised I took a job so far from home. I felt funny because my parents are divorced and there arn’t any divorces in their family and I got the impression they don’t approve of divorces. I can’t help what parents did. It wasn’t my choice. They’re very strict catholics and I think they would just expect whoever their kids married would become one. They were in the process of putting up Christmas decorations and they had a big ball of mistletoe hanging in a doorway. I wasn’t intentionally standing under it, but his brother came over and kissed me on the cheek. Mike told him (kddingly) to knock it off, that no one was going to kiss me before he does. So he gave me a nice hug and little kiss then. (But he gave me a couple really nice ones later on while we were alone in front of the fireplace!! Boy, was that nice. He’s a good kisser.) I didn’t get home until late Friday morning. I talked to him later Friday, but didn’t see him until Sat. night. He took me to a movie. We saw the Departed. Horrible movie. Mike kept apologizing to me because there was so much awful language and violence in it. I wanted to leave, and I would have if I would’ve been with anyone else, but I suffered through it. I hated it. After that we went out to a cozy little place, talked a lot and had a couple of drinks (non-alcohol) and some snacks and he brought me home. He’s being a perfect gentlemen. Kissed me, but not like he did in front of the fireplace. (DARN) He wouldn’t come in my apartment, either. Said he needed to go. I’m really falling for him so I hope I’m not a game to him. I don’t want to get hurt, and for some reason I’m afraid I’m going to.
He’s picking me up for mass shortly and then we’re going back to his parents to trim the tree and I’m invited to stay for dinner.
Zach, we’re finally through?? You’re not getting off that easy. How could I ever be through with you, honey?? 🙂 (I hope you were a good boy at the Falls)
Big hug for Jake. And the rest of you!
November 26, 2006 at 1:38 pm
lovesamerica:
Sounds like everything we prayed for for you has been delivered!
you wrote:
“I’m really falling for him so I hope I’m not a game to him. I don’t want to get hurt, and for some reason I’m afraid I’m going to”.
Sounds like you don’t think you deserve the good things that are happening to you.
Think again . You are very deserving..
Say a prayer thanking God for answering our prayers .Be Thankful abnd enjoy!
November 26, 2006 at 1:40 pm
I came across this written by Michael H. Brown ,one of my favorite authors. I want to share it with you all.
Spirit Daily
__________________________________________
Once Assigned To Superstitious Dust Bin, ‘Ghosts’ May Be Souls In Need Of Prayer (Three Stories)
By Michael H. Brown
First Story
(What are we to think of spirits of the deceased? Do souls communicate with the living? We will discuss this today and tomorrow, hopefully shedding insight on a controversial, important, and potentially dangerous topic)
The other day there was an item in the news about the state capitol in North Carolina and how, allegedly, it’s haunted. The story, carried by a major news organization, reported that staffers have heard floorboards creak with invisible footsteps, keys jangle, and doors squeak open and shut. There are also strange voices, or music (in this case, Gospel music). This is nothing rare: items about “ghosts” are constantly in the secular news. The most respectable programs — the History Channel, Discovery — now report them on a regular basis. They are no longer relegated to the dust bin of superstition. The week before Halloween there was a rundown of major haunted American hotels on network news and in England have been reports of a group of monks said to haunt a 13th-century abbey at Beaulieu. Their footsteps and chanting are now heard amid the ruins.
As I said, this is nothing new. Years ago, Walter Cronkite hosted a special called “The Stately Ghosts of England.” But the difference now is that a majority of Americans believe that spirits occasionally haunt the living, and such have been reported by even august saints such as Padre Pio. He once saw the apparition of a deceased novitiate cleaning the old church at San Giovanni, and there were countless stories of other spirits visiting his monastery — including a whole group of World War II soldiers asking for prayers. Padre Pio was not the only one to see them. Sometimes they came to thank him for their release. I have heard the same from Venezuelan mystic Maria Esperanza (whose husband described them as souls that are too attached to worldly things and are “stuck”; others say some of them are souls assigned their purgatory on earth).
Years ago, when I was a newspaper reporter, I investigated a number of such reports and will say that there were too many to write them all off (many, yes, but not all) to the imagination. I remember one editor who stayed overnight at a reputedly haunted fort near Niagara Falls. He was no nut. Years later, he won the Pulitzer Prize. He did this as a Halloween joke and ended up hurriedly leaving when he encountered what he insisted were strange footsteps as well as a soldier praying in a part of the fort that had been used as a dungeon.
Perhaps the best question to ask is why people who believe in religion — in the supernatural, and especially in apparitions — would consider the visitation of spirits nutty to begin with. The dust bin of superstition? This may all sound like nonsense, but rare is the person who doesn’t know someone who has reported a strange encounter or who himself hasn’t encountered something that seemed supernatural. We have entire books that relate the manifestation of purgatorial souls, revelations that in some instances are stamped with an official Church imprimatur. At Medjugorje the Blessed Mother — who herself appears in apparition — once said that “there are in purgatory souls who pray ardently to God, but for whom no relative or friend prays on earth. God makes them benefit from the prayers of other people. It happens that God permits them to manifest themselves in various ways, close to their relatives on earth, in order to remind men of the existence of purgatory and to solicit their prayers to come close to God.”
The key here is the word “manifest”: souls of the departed come to us in many ways, especially in dreams. They try to remind us. They seek our help — and later they help us. But we have to be careful. We are not to initiate communication with the deceased. We will speak of this tomorrow. This is strictly forbidden. It is necromancy. Moreover, we have to be careful because demons can mimic the dead in order to gain entry. Many are the “haunted” homes that are actually plagued by evil.
Thus, if we have a manifestation, the first thing we should do is use Holy Water and Blessed Salt, and cast out any potential evil with fervent prayer. We do this not as an exorcism (which should only be handled by a priest), but as a deliverance — and only in the Name of Christ. If that doesn’t work, we should have a Mass said in the home, and especially for any deceased who may be connected with the disturbance. While we do not have the authority to cast out a purgatorial soul (as we do a demon), our praying for them often causes their release. There may indeed be souls who haunt places because they are trying to get prayers and also those who died traumatically or are obsessed with a former residence or some other aspect of material existence.
The month of November is set aside as the month to pray for the dead, and we urge this. We urge it especially for those who have died recently, or those who we have seen in dreams; for those who may have no one else to pray for them. If you do this you’ll find joy and often release in your own life! And if there is a disturbance — if there is such a thing — it will come to a halt.
“Dear children, I call you to pray daily for the souls in purgatory,” said one message from Medjugorje in 1986. “For every soul, prayer and grace is necessary to reach God and the love of God. By doing this, dear children, you obtain new intercessors who will help you in life to realize that all the earthly things are not important for you, that only Heaven is that for which it is necessary to strive.”
Church Forbids Consulting Mediums And Speaking With Dead Because Of ‘Dangers’
Second Story
There it was in Tuesday’s New York Post. “Medium as the message,” said a column by writer Linda Stasi — who then went on to recount a recent “sitting” with John Edward, the famous spirit medium, whom you may have seen on TV. He has a popular show in which he talks with the “dead.”
It was amazing, recounted Stasi: Edward really did have information no one could have known. He even got the correct name a grandpa named “Aloisius.” “I mean, it’s kind of hard to be skeptical when the guy comes up with ‘Aloisius’ and, no, we didn’t discuss it in the audience before the show,” wrote the columnist.
It’s interesting how secular columnists will believe a psychic who sees the “dead” — at the same time that they (and even many Catholics) scoff at the Blessed Mother’s apparitions.
But back to our point: this is serious business — speaking with the deceased — and, yes, it often is supernatural. Information arrives that cannot be explained. As I said yesterday, I investigated such things myself in the 1970s when I was in the news business.
The problem is whence the supernatural information is coming. Too often, it’s the dark side: deceptive spirits gaining a foothold into our lives, into our psyches, by imitating the dead.
It’s a cruel trick but then the devil’s very nature is cruelty and this is exactly why the Bible forbids us to partake. Praying for the intercession of the deceased, or conveying a message through Christ, is one thing. But directly trying to communicate — initiating a conversation — is called “necromancy,” and as it says in Scripture [Leviticus 20:6, 27; Deuternonomy 18:11; 1 Samuel 28:3; Isaiah 8:19], “Do not turn to mediums or spiritists. Do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God. As for the person who turns to mediums and to spiritists, to play the harlot after them, I will also set My face against that person” [Leviticus 19:31].
That’s a strong warning — but, then, the Bible, including the New Testament, considers spiritism, witchcraft, necromancy, and wizardry (are you with us, Harry Potter fans?) to be an “abomination.”
I remember one fellow. He was a school teacher who was known for many psychic abilities, and I have to admit, he was baffling. So inexplicable was some of what he could do that we had him studied by a prominent physicist at Kent State University. In retrospect, I know that even investigating him was wrong, and I regret ever getting anywhere near this stuff. It is pure danger. I didn’t realize that danger because I never heard any warnings about the occult at Sunday Mass or during religious instruction.
Such is rarely preached from the pulpit and the reason seems to be because priests — who are no longer taught mystical theology in the seminaries — think of it all as harmless nonsense (when it is precisely the opposite).
If the average minister or priest or skeptic could have spent one week doing the research I did back in the Seventies, that skeptic or minister or seminarian — or “theologian” — would not only shed his mocking outlook but would likewise preach on the dangers.
This stuff can cause virtually any kind of problem. Many are those who involve themselves with the occult and then find themselves with a proclivity towards alcoholism, drugs, promiscuity, depression, anxiety attacks, “hauntings,” or marital problems. You name it.
When we come close to evil spirits, there is always the chance that something will rub off — that a piece of their darkness, and sometimes more than just a bit, will contaminate. Once we open ourselves to spirits, they are allowed a certain part of our psycho-spiritual territory.
If you study mediums or those who follow psychics close enough long enough, you’ll eventually find emotional, spiritual, or physical disturbances. You’ll find unhappiness. You’ll even find illness.
These spirits are not deceiving for the fun of it; they are deceiving so as to gain entry; they are deceiving to cause actual damage.
Things That Go Bump In The Night: Are Ghosts And Hauntings The Real Thing?
Are there such things as ghosts? Can a person or place really be ‘haunted’?
Third Story
We think of B movies, Casper, and kids scaring themselves silly over a campfire.
According to a Gallup poll in 2001, more than 40 percent of Americans believe that a place can be haunted — up from about 29 percent ten years earlier. Meanwhile, Hollywood is about to produce a major film on long-rumored ghosts in the White House (Abraham Lincoln was a believer in this, and at least once participated in a seance) and many saints believed in visitations from the dead — most notably the recently-canonized Padre Pio of Pietrelcina, who asserted that he saw numerous spirits of deceased souls seeking his intercession.
At the famous apparition site of Medjugorje in Bosnia-Hercegovina, which is still under review by Rome, the Blessed Mother allegedly said that souls in purgatory are sometimes allowed to manifest in order to remind us of the need to pray for them.
That sounds like “ghosts,” and the concept goes right to the top of Western culture. And its government. Lincoln himself is said to return to the White House when the security of the country is at risk, striding up and down the second floor hallway. A bodyguard to President Harrison was kept awake many nights trying to protect the president from mysterious footsteps he heard in the hall. Abigail Adam’s ghost, it is said, was seen drifting through the closed doors of the East Room. A gardener claimed to have spoken to the ghost of Dolly Madison (who reproved him for trying to remove the rose bushes she had planted over a hundred years ago).
Believers there are, and they are now in surprising quarters. Last month, officials at the Royal Navy dockyard in Devonport, UK, reviewed a study by psychic investigators who were looking into haunted reports there, especially in the hangman’s cell. Generations of sailors have claimed to see ghosts of a small girl and a bearded mariner there!
In Shropshire, a man was “well and truly spooked” — say other recent reports — when he saw a ghostly image walking towards him as he photographed a county landmark.
The landmark was an abbey and what he claimed to see was a hooded figure — a monk who appeared and headed toward the door of a sacristy!
Monks were once featured in a documentary of ghosts narrated by none other than Walter Cronkite. They were caught on film — from the knees up. Later it was learned that at one point in history the monastery floor once had been a foot or two lower.
Last season Boston Red Sox relief pitcher Scott Williamson claimed to have seen the ghost of a man at the old Renaissance Vinoy Hotel in St. Petersburg, Florida, ”dressed in a 1920s, 30’s style, staring at me.”
There are books about ghosts in many parts of the United States. They hover especially in older regions such as New England and cities like Savanna. As we reported two weeks ago, many cities even have ghost tours — which we discourage. In Scotland alone, at least 300 castles, palaces and stately homes are said to harbor spirits of the dead.
What are we to make of this?
First, great caution is in order. The Bible forbids us from contacting spirits. It’s known as necromancy. Stay away from spirit mediums (including the currently famous one who appears on television and talks up the Rosary). The same is true of spiritualists and fortunetellers.
This is dangerous business. It can be that a place is not haunted by the departed but rather the forces of darkness. In too many cases evil spirits are at work and the ruckus they cause is mistakenly attributed to the dead. In certain instances a demon may even masquerade as a dead person. Especially, they mimic voices. This is common in the annals of demonology.
But there are also cases in which it appears the dead are bound to a home or other place. Sometimes, spirits hover in homes to which they were overly attached. In other cases, there are “hauntings” at scenes of murder. According to mystics like St. Pio and Maria Esperazna of Betania, Venezuela, there are souls who do their purgatory in our midst. A psychiatrist named Dr. George Ritchie reported a near-death experience in which he saw spirits bound to earth due to sinful or addictive behavior. In other cases, it could be a soul simply asking for prayer, trying to leave a sign, or even coming to assist the living.
But we must always be on guard. Take it from Rick Sims, who encountered a problem when he moved to Boca Raton, Florida.
“The very first night I was in bed, just about asleep and suddenly I felt paralyzed,” he wrote us. “Someone or something landed on top of me pressing me into the mattress. I could not move at all, and was afraid to open my eyes. I tried to say Jesus but again everything was paralyzed. Over and over I tried to say Jesus but my voice was slurred, it sounded like something you see in the movies when a voice is in super slow motion. Finally I was able to say Jesus, and as soon as I did I was free. I opened my eyes and saw a light on in the room; nothing else was there.
“The next day I called my mom and told her the story. She advised me to say a prayer and ask the Blessed Mother to protect me. So of course I asked her to stay with me the next night, and wouldn’t you know, I had one of the best nights sleep I can ever remember. I woke up the next morning feeling refreshed and very thankful to Our Lady for watching over me.
“What happens next knocks my socks off!!! I go to make the bed. The room I slept in that night was very big. In the room was a chair that had arms attached to it. This chair sat across the room against a side wall about five feet away from the foot of the bed. As I pull the bedspread up to cover the pillows, I notice one of the pillows is missing. I look down by my feet no pillow. I crawl across the bed to look on the other side, no pillow. As I scan the rest of the room, I see this oversized pillow sitting perfectly between the seat and arms, hanging off each side of the chair, just as if someone placed it there!! I thought to myself there is absolutely no way I could have kicked or thrown the pillow five feet in the air. If by some crazy chance I did, there is no way it could have landed on the chair, pulled it’s way through the arms rest itself on the seat with each end of the pillow extended out well beyond each arm of that chair. I tossed the pillow myself just to see if it could be done. Each time I did it landed on an angle, one side above one arm and the other resting below on the seat. Or both ends of the pillow on top of the arms laying straight across, never on the seat with each end of the pillow pulled through the arms of the chair (like putting a finger through your wedding ring, a perfect fit). No doubt in my mind the Blessed Mother was there with me that night watching over me.
“Every once in a while I feel the evil presence, however, I’m not afraid anymore. It seems to come around when I get closer to Our Lord through prayer. All I have to do is say Jesus and everything is fine.”
The bottom line is that it is far more frequent than many realize. If something goes bump in your night, first seek to have the home delivered and blessed, in case the spirit is a deceiving one, and if it remains, have Mass said for the departed who may once have lived there.
Once free, the house quiets right down and the soul is eternally grateful.
June 2004
[resources: Aterlife books]
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November 26, 2006 at 5:47 pm
lovesamerica:
you wrote:
He’s being a perfect gentlemen. Kissed me, but not like he did in front of the fireplace. (DARN) He wouldn’t come in my apartment, either. Said he needed to go.
Why do you think he needed to go? Why do you think he didn’t come up to your apartment?
He is very attracted to you.
I think that he sees you as someone very special and he doesn’t want anything to go wrong. If he had bad intentions ,he would have taken advantage of the situation.
He sounds like a good guy, a real gentleman.
November 26, 2006 at 11:33 pm
Angel :
You wrote:
“I had a conversation with my brother and sister in law. I haven’t told anyone about this forum or that I even participate in it. They told me lots of people get on these things and pose as someone else, or lie about themselves. That hurt me. Because I would really hope that Big Jake, DJ, Zach, lovesamerica, AmericanWoman, and YOU are who you say you are. I have grown to care for all of you and I enjoy reading your posts. My brother in law was just pointing out how several people he works with, and even my own nephew plays with these things. I’m real. I AM who I say I am. Nothing more. Nothing less. And I hope all of you are, also.”
Why would any of us ,at this point in time (post #769)say we were something other than what we have presented on this forum? To what purpose would this serve? This is an anonymous board. We have chosen to disclose only what we have chosen to disclose about ourselves.
We have run into people like Curious and we as a group have weathered the storms. It made us closer.
I asked myself why I continue to post to this board. What have I gotten out of it?
Well, some may call it Christian Fellowship or development of my spiritual life and the effect it has on fellow Christians.POSTS 293-296 Where Zach and I asked Jesus to come into our hearts.
The positive changes our interactions have on each other’s lives . Look at Zach and Amy ,Lovesamerica and Mike .
Providing comfort to you Angel ,American woman and to Red Dawn .
I think that Red Dawn hit the nail on the head with her comment about a place where Souls can interact away from the facade of reality. We are developing our souls here. We are exercising our spirituality. That is what we get out of this forum, the expression of our Christianity. We may be too timid to come out in public because it is not in vogue, not politically correct ,whatever, in our society to say the things we say on this board.
As we strengthen our Faith and each other ,we are preparing for the day when that will happen.
November 27, 2006 at 12:51 am
Big Jake: I asked because this is the first forum I have ever participated in. I’m not experienced with the internet and caution was expressed especially by my brother in law. I’ve read the earlier posts, and AmericanWoman also pointed out that people use different identities. I also read the posts from Curious. What a sub-species he must be. I guess part of me just wanted verification that you’re all really who I think you are. You’re right, what would be the whole purpose now. We’ll never really know anyway. Now I’m going to go back and read your post 767. Talk to you soon.
November 27, 2006 at 1:19 am
Big Jake: Just got done reading post 767. WOW. I have always believed in ghosts. I have gotten into several conversations with friends, family, and co-workers about ghosts. Most of them begin with a cavalier attitude about it. Then I ask them if they believe in the Holy Ghost. I’ve been fortunate because everyone I have asked has said yes. So then I ask, then why don’t you believe in an Unholy Ghost? That usually makes them think. Even though Christ defeated satan at the cross, and I KNOW that, and Christ has given us power over the rulers of darkness, these unseen forces scare the crap out of me. I am scared to death of evil spirits and ghosts. I’ve thought about my Mom and I would be afraid if she came back because I wouldn’t believe it was her. Just like your author wrote. So many spirits try to deceive you with the appearance of someone you recognize. This stuff really frightens me. I’ll be snuggling up real close to my husband tonight, because I don’t want anything tapping me on the shoulder!! Thank God he’s home everynight. If he traveled or worked out of town, I’d hear every little noise and be a nervous wreck when the lights went out. You’re probably thinking I’m a big baby. I am. And I’d probably lay in bed with a Bible on my chest, a knife in my hand, and saying prayers non-stop. I’m a chicken.
November 27, 2006 at 3:16 am
Angel:
I didn’t post 767 to startle you. I posted it in reference to our earlier discussions regarding purgatory ,and praying for our beloved dead. I also wanted to illustrate the difference between praying for the dead, asking through Jesus for intercession and necromancy which is forbidden.
“there are in purgatory souls who pray ardently to God, but for whom no relative or friend prays on earth. God makes them benefit from the prayers of other people. It happens that God permits them to manifest themselves in various ways, close to their relatives on earth, in order to remind men of the existence of purgatory and to solicit their prayers to come close to God.”
The key here is the word “manifest”: souls of the departed come to us in many ways, especially in dreams. They try to remind us. They seek our help — and later they help us. But we have to be careful. We are not to initiate communication with the deceased.
In I John 4:1 we are told to test the spirits to determine if they are of God.
(By Pastor Walt Healy)
Beloved, do not believe every spirit,
but test the spirits, whether they are of God;
because many false prophets
have gone out into the world. I John 4:1
Each of us is told we are to test or “proof” the spirits. The obvious first filter for this testing is the scriptures, which will clarify all doctrine and 95% of all of our guidance. It is the other 5% that can raise questions. The general guidance we receive from the written word is not the subject of this writing; my purpose here is to focus on the precise and specific guidance we seek in the situational needs we face. Since there are three sources of “voices”– human, demonic or divine — we must learn to discern so as not to miss the voice of God or follow some other voice.
We begin by separating the spirit of the message from the content, assuming the content lines up with the word of God. We determine if the thoughts were born in meditation, constructed from what we’ve learned and linked to other thoughts as a progressive unfolding or arrival. This is natural or human thought.
Supernatural thought arrives differently, either coming from the air (the prince of the air; the devil) or they bubble up from the inner spirit. These are both spiritual, but God’s thoughts are born in the innermost being, intuited, known without being thought through. They are sensed before they are thought, spontaneous, gentle and full of light, higher than our thoughts and they excite us to faith, peace, awe, etc. God’s thoughts and words carry their own strength to achieve fulfillment.
For with God nothing will be impossible.
Luke 1:37
Demonic thoughts are not so much sensed or thought but come as an air raid or attack. They fail the wisdom test of James 3:15-18.
This wisdom does not descend from above,
but is earthly, sensual, demonic.
For where envy and self-seeking exist,
confusion and every evil thing are there. But
the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
The fruit of God’s thoughts will be righteousness, enduement of power, peace, liberty, humility, and the production of the character and person of Christ. Satan’s thoughts will produce bondage, fear, compulsion, and an ego trip. His thoughts are negative, pushy, destructive, accusative, urgent, divisive, and closed to testing. In other words, though he may claim to be God talking to you, his words will violate the nature of God even if he is quoting scripture. Demonic thoughts will also reject testing while God’s thoughts will submit to the scrutiny of the church authority.
Another major distinctive of the origin of thoughts is given by Jesus in Matthew 7:15-20.
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Satan can appear as an angel of light and can send a disguised message but he cannot hide his character. He comes to rob, kill and destroy, while Jesus comes to give abundant life. Satan will attempt to replace doctrine and have us depart from the faith.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. I Tim. 4:1
The Holy Spirit will cause us to magnify God and reveal the glory of Christ and not ourselves.
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Acts 10:44-46a
The antichrist spirit will deny Jesus Christ (see I John 4:1-6 and 2:22-23). The antichrist spirit will never say, “Jesus is Lord” (see I Cor. 12:2-3). In other words, the truth concerning Jesus must be the root and the fruit of prophetic communication:
And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “”See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev. 19:10
In every “inner dialogue,” ask yourself if Jesus is the focal point as in Romans 10:8-17. Ask yourself if God’s kingdom is being built on Jesus.
For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. Rom. 14:7
Ask yourself if you are finding the Way, the Truth, the Life and entrance to the Father.
Lastly, I point out that the Holy Spirit always teaches of Jesus and the kingdom, not petty things about others. Such ones as believe God talks to them about other people are frequently seduced by another voice not of the Good Shepherd.
I hope and pray this message will help you better attune to and discern the voice of God, freeing you from the confusion of your own thoughts and guarding you from accepting satan’s as valid.
God bless your pursuit of Him.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
November 27, 2006 at 11:15 am
Big Jake: There was a time in my teenage years when I was into reading demonic books like the Excorcist and watching the same types of movies. I was very intrigued by it all. I began noticing things about my behavior and thought patterns that weren’t christian like and I came to realize it was all the garbage I was putting into my head. I felt convicted to stop reading those things because in truth, I was constantly scared at night or whenever I was alone. I have always loved to read, and I remember being in a book store and I saw the satanic bible. I couldn’t even pick it up. It disgusted me and angered me at the same time. I decided right then and there that satan and all his devices to keep us away from reading truth were going to end in my life. He doesn’t care what you believe as long as it’s the wrong thing. And he’ll do anything to keep your mind occupied with anything other than Jesus and reading the gospel. Satan is so busy throwing distractions and obstacles in our way. Anything to keep us away from God and keeping us preoccupied with other things. He’s cunning and subtle. Even in the things we think are innocent. We have to be on guard at all times.
I LOVE your posts. You are very knowlegable. Do you, or have you thought about doing a bible study in your home? It would be fascinating to be part of an adult bible study with you. I hope you are doing one because the discussions would be awesome. I’m almost jealous thinking I can’t be one lead by you. My husband and I have thought about putting a small group together. Maybe four couples, meeting once a week. I think it would be a lot of fun. Wish you could be a part of that.
Spirits and ghost do frighten me. I have always concentrated on praying for the living instead of the dead. Maybe it’s the way I’ve been previously taught. I might’ve told you I was raised in a Baptist church. My husband was catholic when I met him, but not a real strict one. I shared the gospel one night with him while we were on a walk before we got married.
I was in a previous marriage with a terrible man. I suffered in that marriage for 12 years because I was so against divorce. I was married at 19, and stayed married for 12 years to that beast. I never had children with him. Never wanted any because I knew they would be dysfunctional growing up in a relationship like the one I had with him. I became a christian when I was 21. In other words, I had asked Jesus to come into my heart and help me deal with my life. Knowing how he (Jesus) felt about divorce, I hung in there. It was physically and verbally abusive, to the point where at times at actually prayed that God would kill me. I’d read in the paper how someone with a family, or a young person got killed in an accident, and I’d ask God why he didn’t take me. In addition to all the verbal and physical abuse, I finally found out my husband was a regular cheater. I don’t blame him, because our relationship was horrible and in my heart, I “hated” him. I know that’s wrong, but intense dislike doesn’t really define my feelings about him. When I found out he was cheating, I felt that was my out scripturally. And escape I did! My ex wasn’t ready to give me up. Why would he? He had his own whipping post and a personal slave for years. I got flowers, and phone calls, and everything to try to win be back. TOO LATE. I really hated that creep. Still do. And I’ve been married to a wonderful man now for 20 years. He’s everything the first one wasn’t and more. After my divorce, I asked God to bring someone perfect for me into my life. And I also promised him I would never marry anyone again that was not a christian. That’s why I shared the gospel with my present husband on that walk. I told him how I felt about Jesus and my hope of Heaven. Within a week, he accepted Christ and we have prayed together everyday, and read the Bible toether ever since. He’s not perfect, but he’s perfect for me. I’m crazy in love with him and I still get a thrill just seeing him pull down the driveway. People and family members tease us because we still act like newlyweds. That feeling has just never gotten away from us. And I’ll never let it.
I feel like I’ve gone on and on and I’m sorry. I’m just sharing a little about myself.
You’re a very special man, Big Jake, with a lot of gifts. Especially dealing with people. I wish I knew you so I could invite you over for coffee and conversation. Thank you for sharing so much information with us. It is opening more areas to study.
God Bless
November 27, 2006 at 1:31 pm
Big Jake & Angel, I haven’t had time to read all the posts I’ve missed. I did skim over them and I’ll get back to them when I get home from work. I’m taking a few minutes because I’m really upset.
Big Jake, my knight has a chink in his armor. At least that’s how I feel. I was having a wonderful time yesterday. I could move in with his family they’re so nice. After we were done decorating and eating, his brother and his girlfriend, and his sister and her husband and Mike and I decided to play monopoly. We were having the best time. We were in to the game a couple of hours and his Mom comes downstairs and tells Mike he has a phone call. I could tell by the look on her face something was weird. So he leaves. He’s gone about 45 min. The game sort of peters out and when he comes back he acts different. His siblings leave and we’re alone. So then he tells me that he was involved with a girl for about three years. They broke up a few months ago. She was a nursing student. She got pregnant with his baby this past Spring. Mike’s brother Chris has a three year old son and he dropped out of college for a while because of it. He’s back in now. Anyway, Mike, his brother Chris, and his other brother, Sal, are all in college. His parents help, but for the most part they have student loans and do their best to help pay the bills. Anyway, this girl that Mike loved, went behind his back and got an abortion because she didn’t want Mike to drop out of school. She told him they couldn’t afford a baby right now and it wasn’t a good time for a baby. Mike told me he flipped out about the abortion. He told me he never felt the same about her after that. He said every time he looked at her he got the thought that she murdered their baby. He also told me he never wanted to touch her again after that. He said it ruined everything. She was the one who was on the phone. I asked him why he talked to her so long if he didn’t have feelings for her anymore. He said he DID have feelings but they’re not the same. What does that mean??? I asked him if I was a “rebounder”. He said of course not. He said he really liked me. And he wanted to keep seeing me. He said his past is his past and there’s nothing he can do to change that. I said to him, in other words, if she wouldn’t have done that, you’d still be with her, right? And he said YES. That SUCKS. I cried most of the night about this thing. I don’t know what to make of it. He probably still loves her and will dump me when he gets his stupid feelings all sorted out. What a bunch of Bull!!!! I knew it was too good to be true. If he calls me today I’m not even going to answer the phone. Am I wrong? I’m really kind of mad at him. I’d rather end this before he does. What do you think? I don’t like competing this girl. And I feel like that’s what I’ll have to do. She must still love him and want him back if she called him. If it’s over, why doesn’t she just stay away? I don’t even know her and I think she’s a bitch. He’s everything I ever wanted and now he’s got this garbage I have to deal with. I’m not in love with him yet but I think I could so it would be better to end it because I don’t want this girl chasing him while I’m seeing him. I don’t trust that he’s over her.
November 27, 2006 at 1:36 pm
Big Jake, another thing. These strict catholics don’t seem to have much self control!
November 27, 2006 at 7:00 pm
Big Jake, Mike tried calling me twice this morning. I’m letting my voice mail take my calls and I check my messages right after a call comes in. A few minutes ago I just got a beautiful red rose in a vase delivered to my office. All the card says is Trust Me, Mike. He’s good. He’s a pro isn’t he? I don’t know what to think or what to do. I’m scared. I don’t want to get suckered in.
November 27, 2006 at 9:58 pm
Big Jake, it is now 4:55 and I will be leaving work at 5:00. I’ve been checking all day to see if you’ve answered me. You must be gone somewhere. Mike hasn’t called since the two times this morning. I’m going out with some friends after work because I don’t want to go home. I’m not going to answer my cell, either. I don’t know what to say to him. I’m really upset. Maybe it’s stupid to be, but I can’t help how I feel. I haven’t even known him that long but it still bugs me that that girl called him. It bug me his mother didn’t tell her he was busy. How rude when I’m right there. I haven’t told anyone about this. I’m not going to. I’m probably blowing this, but on the other hand, there’s nothing to blow anyhow. I hope you answer this by the time I get home tonight. I don’t have anyone else to talk to. My Mom hates all men so she’s the last one I’d call.
November 27, 2006 at 10:23 pm
Just got back from dropping Amy off. Had a great time. I’ll talk more about it later.
lovesamerica, I’m not Jake, but you have always spouted off your thoughts to me, so here’s back at ya.
What the hell is wrong with you? You sound like a nut. Mike sounds like an okay guy to me. What’s he done? Think about it. What has he done that’s so terrible? You are reading so much into this it’s almost comical. He’s 26 years old. You think he never had a girlfriend? Shit. He obviously likes you or he wouldn’t have sent you that flower. This is still pretty new, so if you want this guy, you better ease up a bit. I’ve never claimed to understand how women think, but, from my point of view, I think you’re being ignorant.
We’re all rooting for you. C’mon. Give the guy a break. He sounds like a nice guy. Don’t be stupid. And alone.
November 28, 2006 at 1:14 am
lovesamerica:
Sorry I couldn’t get back to you sooner. I was away from my computer at a client today. I just got back and read your posts.
Well here goes.
You wrote:
Anyway, Mike, his brother Chris, and his other brother, Sal, are all in college.
Which is it , Mike is in Medical school or in college ? That is a big difference. If he is in college at 26 ,why is that?
I was very happy with the way you described Mike’s family and the way they made you feel like family.
I was a little disconcerted when you indicated that Mike’s brother had a child and wasn’t married. But then these things happen.
Now you indicate that Mike also had a child and his girlfriend had an abortion. Apparently , there is a little responsibility problem here.
The image of this “strict Catholic family ” is a little tarnished.
OK , that said, how does this affect you?
You are now in the tire kicking phase of this relationship. The skeleton is out of the closet and you are a little startled and upset.
Your mission is to determine now at this juncture if there are any other skeletons lurking. Time for Mikey to put all the cards on the table.
1) Does he still have feelings for this girl?
You stated that she had the abortion because he was still in school and she didn’t want him to drop out.Apparently he did not know about the abortion because you indicated tht he flipped out when he found out .
Did he know about the pregnancy?
you indicated that if she had not had the abortion ,he stated that he would still be with her. I assume that could be for one of two reasons, either he loves her or because he felt guilty and out of a sense of responsibility he would stay with her , maybe both .
There is no reason for you to break off with him. He has not done anything to disrespect you.
His past is his past.However,you are entitled to a few answers. If this other girl is still in the picture ,you have every right to know,
NOW.
You might want to have a talk with his mother or one of his sisters.
Basically ,you should state up front that you do not want to step on any toes . If there is a relationship with this former girlfriend , you want to step aside before you complicate matters further.
If you do continue with the relationship, BE ON YOUR GUARD. YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE #3 IN THIS TRILOGY.Have the talk with Mike early and do not compromise your values!
November 28, 2006 at 1:37 am
lovesamerica–
Well, I have to say that Zach was less than tactful! ZACH!
After everything you’ve been through I’d expect a little more sensitivity.
I love you Zach, but try to think before you type.
Uhhum, anyway, lovesamerica, you have to remember that everyone has their past. This guy is obviously moving on from his since such a family associated guy brought you home to his family at such an important holiday. You guys are still new; forgive this “bleep” and see where it takes you. If he wanted to be with her, sounds like he would have every reason to think he could be. You have to remember that a relationship that has been long and has depth takes some time to recover from. Don’t pressure him and give up. He sounds like he really likes you so play it cool and figure out what is going on by simply asking him, and take him at his word. Time will tell if actions and words match. But we ALL take risks when we want to pursue a relationship. If you really like him, play it cool and ALLOW him to have his past. We all do anyway. Honesty is FAR better than a sqeaky clean rendition. Let him feel that he can talk to you about it openly and refuse to be intimidated by it. Otherwise, men are afraid to open up.
Call him back and apologize for overreacting. Tell him that it “through you for a loop” and that you just didn’t expect it. Do this with dignity and warmth. Listen to him when he speaks; really listen.
November 28, 2006 at 1:39 am
Should have said “threw you for a loop”.
Sorry!:)
November 28, 2006 at 1:44 am
Just saw Big Jake posted: I do agree with him that you should have some answers before deciding to go further with this relationship. But do this as a friend. After all, that is all you guys are at this moment, romance aside.
November 28, 2006 at 3:52 am
Big Jake, Mike is in medical school. College, medical school, it’s all college to me. He DOESN’T have any children. Did I say that somewhere? This girl that called him was pregnant by him. He would’ve had a baby if she wouldn’t have had the abortion. He knew she was pregnant and he was going to drop out of medical school so he could get a job and take care of her and the baby. I assume he was going to marry her. She got an abortion behind his back because she didn’t want him to drop out of med school. His brother Chris is the one with the kid. Sal doesn’t have ANY kids. Chris and Sal are in college. Mike’s childless and in med school. Where did I say Mike had a kid??
And Zach, really. Red Dawn is right. Why are you calling me a nut? Just because I’m a little confused because you men are so…into things you shouldn’t be into???? (No pun intended!) I have to meet you someday just so I can shake you. I admit, I’ve been a little outspoken at times with you, but I have an excuse. I’m young and stupid. You’re just stupid. You should be more careful. Hit me on the right day in the right mood and I could tell you where the bear shit in the buckwheat.
I DID talk to Mike. I can’t play games and I it doesn’t take me long to say what I think. I know it’s a fault but it gets things done. I told him I was starting to care for him and I was concerned about his past girlfriend keeping the ties. He told me that things were definitely over as far as he was concerned. I told him that’s not good enough. She’s needs to get it. So, either start being more direct, or hang up on her when she calls. If you’re done, you’re frickin done. I’ll never fight over you. If I find out you’re talking with her or seeing her, you can have her full time. Forget me, because I’ll forget you. Quick. I gave him the same crack about going to mass all the time and the strict catholic family impression and how come if you guys are so holy you and your brother arn’t better at keeping your pants zipped. He laughed. He told me he never met anyone so blunt. He insisted he IS a strict catholic, and hormones just take over sometimes. He told me I embarrassed him by saying that. I told him to cut the crap. If you’re embarrassed it’s because you know I’m telling you the truth. I told him I don’t lie and I don’t expect to be lied to. He said he never lied to me about anything. I told him holding something important back is like lieing. So come clean or die later. He kept smiling and chuckling while I was talking. I know he knows I’m serious but I think I amuse him. I don’t know. I really like him a lot and he’s a lot of fun. I just want the ex-girlfriend to go away and stay away. We talked a lot and he’s so darn cute and charming that he’s hard to resist. Don’ worry, Big Jake. I haven’t waited this long to throw it away on someone who doesn’t deserve it. Don’tYOU ever stay away that long again. Tell your clients you have other priorites that are more important. Like me. You stay away and then some hack steps in to offer some mindless blather.
Red Dawn, thank you. Thank you for scolding Zach, too.
Zach, you will always be my first love. I couldn’t be mad at you for anything. I still love you. Be nice to me.
November 28, 2006 at 11:52 am
lovesamerica, Where the bear shit in the buckwheat? What kind of hillbilly talk is that? I’m assuming that’s equivalent to what we say in my neck of the woods…ripping someone a new …hole? I’m going to have to drop that bear in the buckwheat line at work today just to see the guys reaction. It sounds so hick.
I apologize if I’m insensitive. I was putting myself in Mike’s place and I’d be wondering what I did wrong if a girl was acting like that. I said I don’t understand how you women think. I’m not a philospher like Jake is. Or as mellowed. We need to get as much out of him as we can before he starts charging.
Which brings me to another point. Why would Mike’s catholic religion be tarnished? I’m confused on that. You seemed shocked that he’s 26, had a relationship with a girl for THREE years, and things happened between them. It isn’t like he picked up some whore in a bar and got her pregnant. He sounds like he wasn’t going to desert her. He was going to quit school and get a job to support her and the baby. So what’s the beef? Same way with his brother. These guys don’t sound like they’re not responsible. Maybe I’m wrong. I just think that when you’re in love with someone, things happen. And it’s not because men are a bunch of horny perverts. Sex is just part of being in love. Jake, you said you were 24 when you got married. It’s none of my business and I’m not trying to put you one the spot, but, 24. You were straight until you got married? I think you’re a man of steel if you were. You don’t have to answer that. I just know what I was like at 24. I guess I’m not a very good person by the standards on here.
Red Dawn, your scolding. I really am a sensitive guy. Or try to be. I just thought she sounded a little over the top from my point of view, which 99% of the time wrong. Like this time.
Hope you all have a great day. I’ve got to find me some bears in buckwheat.
November 28, 2006 at 2:06 pm
lovesamerica:
you wrote:
I told him holding something important back is like lieing. So come clean or die later.
Personal question:
Are you sure you ‘re not part Annie Oaklie, part Calamity Jane and part Laura Ingalls Wilder? Sounds like you joined the Texas Rangers(NOT the baseball team).”A Texas Ranger always gets his man.” and “Wanted ,Dead or Alive”!
Good for you! You set him straight from the beginning. And apparently ,you have staked your claim!
My concern regarding “college” had to do with maturity. A 26 year old in medical school indicates more maturity than a 26 year old in college.
You need alot of drive and determination to graduate from a four year college with the kind of grades to be accepted into medical school .
Someone 26 years old in college ,telling a girl that he was going to become a doctor is immature and delusional and a legend in his own mind.
You wrote:
Mike’s childless and in med school. Where did I say Mike had a kid??
As far as I’m concerned, Mike HAD a kid. Having kids to me means everything up to and including giving birth. As far as a man is concerned the physical act of impregnation is having a kid in my book. Men in general need to be more responsible with human life. I hope that lesson
was learned already by Mike.
I’ve got a little confession to make. I was monitoring the board while you posted 774,775,776 and 777. While I was at my client ,I could have replied but I decided not to. I wanted you to do exactly what you did. You worked yourself up into a lather and you set him straight . He needed that. Saves alot of heartache down the line. I never expected that you would walk away or give up without a fight.
I’d say you handled this crisis pretty darn well on your own.
Now Mike is aware of ground rules and the cruise missle you have sitting in the launcher just in case he gets out of line.
November 28, 2006 at 2:18 pm
Zach:
I met my wife to be when I was 19 . She made me promise in Church that we would wait until the wedding night. I promised in Church. I’m not sorry . I guess I am a man of steel. Need I say more?
By the way , I’ve spent my life trying to avoid finding bears in the buckwheat or their business!
November 28, 2006 at 3:02 pm
Big Jake, I’m surprised at you. I really needed you yesterday. I had NO ONE. I guess I can’t count on you afterall. I know you were trying to do something, or teach me something, but that hurts. I wish you wouldn’t have told me.
Zach, I’m glad you like my saying. My Dad used to always say that. He’s a hick. He’s a lot of things. He’s never there, either.
It’s about time I grow up anyway.
November 28, 2006 at 7:12 pm
lovesamerica:
I’m really sorry you feel that way. That wasn’t my intention.
November 28, 2006 at 8:41 pm
Big Jake, your post #786. You’re very honorable. I wish I would’ve lived my life like that.
I’ve spilled my guts on here. I’ve probably told more than I ever should have. You must think I’m a real piece of work.
November 28, 2006 at 9:47 pm
Zach:
re #789
If I hadn’t met my wife when I did ,the story would have turned out differently.
November 29, 2006 at 12:51 am
Jake, #790. Man, you deserve a medal. You met your wife at 19, and finally got married at 24? Five years you’re seeing that woman. And nothing. I’m impressed. Really impressed. I almost think you’re bullshitting me. Because that’s a record. Six months would be a record for me. And I thought I had self-control. I guess I must be some kind of skank. I’m sitting here sipping a beer in amazement. I’m off work tomorrow and I’ve had a few beers already. How the hell did you do that, Jake??? You better be on the level. I know. You met her when she was 19 and didn’t see her again until she was 23-1/2. I wish I could talk to you face to face because I could probably tell for sure then. I know you’re a religous man, but I don’t think you always were. You should’ve been a priest.
By the way, me thinks lovesamerica may be a little peesed at you. She’s usually peesed at me, but not today. Just when you think you know women, huh? Thought you were doing something nice, and wham, right in the ass. I think we need to hook up with DJ and crack open his womanese translator. I love Amy. I really do. But she’s a little miffed at me right now. I don’t what I did. Something. I think she expected me to give her a ring this weekend. Ha. Not yet. I’m gonna make her wait. And if she doesn’t behave, she’ll have to wait that much longer. Because I want to. It’s kind of a power trip. I can just hear all you women mouthing off now. Zach is such a meany. Both sexes have their little power corners. And you women have three corners to our one.
I know you hate me to leave, but, my used to be brother in law Vic is stopping over. I saw him after work, had a few beers. And he’s coming over to have a few more. Josh is fine. He’s got relatives (cousins) here from out of town so he begged me yesterday to let him stay there a few more days. His grandparents take him to school and his one cousin even went to class with him. He doesn’t see them very often so I gave in. Do you know he’s 9 years old and girls are calling him already? That bugs me. He thinks it’s gross. Someday he’ll love it. He’s a good looking kid. I hope he doesn’t do anything stupid. I’ve been stupid. I’ve been smart, but I’ve been stupid, to. Need another o. Too. So Jake, write a book or something so us guys have a manual to follow. I wish I would’ve met you when I was 16. Vic’s here.
November 29, 2006 at 2:59 am
Zach:
I kid you not. When I met my wife, we had an understanding. If I wanted to go out with her,
it would be understood that we would wait. Those were the ground rules. No arm twisting. We were both free to call it quits if we wanted to. We didn’t want to. I had gone out with other girls. I was the first guy she had ever gone out with. I knew she was something special.
I guess we both were throw backs to an earlier time.
And this religious stuff, she was the religious one, I was the heathen.
As Flounder said in “Animal House” ..
“Women ,….can’t live with ‘um ,can’t live without ‘um”.
November 29, 2006 at 11:38 am
Jake, you are the perfect man. I admire you. You’re not throwbacks. You did it the way people should do it. You’re wife reminds me of Caroline. I was her first real boyfriend. I’m not going to lie and say we waited. It was probably more me than her. I’m an animal I guess. But, she was special and definitely the prize of my life and I was never interested in anyone else from the time I met her. She had me wrapped around her finger. This is the thing that scares me about Amy. I love her, but not like I loved Caroline. I don’t think I will ever love anyone like that. I’m just tired of being alone. I liked being married. Guys bitch about it at work, but I liked it. Having Vic over last night probably wasn’t a good thing, either. Again, it reminds me of old times, my old life, how it was. Then Caroline’s memory haunts me. Vic is like a brother. We used to have the best times. His wife and Caroline and I. Why did it have to end?
I’m on vacation this week. I always take a few days this time of year to hunt. But, I don’t really feel like it today. I switched a day and went in for a friend yesterday because he’s got some personal things going on and needed the day. I don’t really feel like hunting for some reason. I must be getting old.
Jake, you’re the man I always wanted to be. You and your wife are great examples for your kids. I hope they do it right like you two did.
November 29, 2006 at 1:57 pm
Zach:
Look, nobody can replace Caroline in your heart or in your life,nobody.
You WROTE:
Having Vic over last night probably wasn’t a good thing, either. Again, it reminds me of old times, my old life, how it was. Then Caroline’s memory haunts me. Vic is like a brother.
You are still a part of Caroline’s family. Josh is a grandchild ,a nephew, a cousin. Your mother-in-law is accepting of Amy and your relationship.
You are feeling guilty because you are falling in love with Amy. Stop it. You are not being disloyal to Caroline. Your love for Amy is a different kind of love. Caroline was your first love.
You wrote:
Jake, you’re the man I always wanted to be. You and your wife are great examples for your kids.
And you’re not? Why not? You had a loving relationship with Caroline ,a loving marriage and a beautiful son. What am I missing here?
Your relationship was right for both of you.
Now strive to make this new one just as good.
November 30, 2006 at 12:25 am
Jake, you’re the type of guy other guys look up to. Smart. Good charactor and honorable. Cool under any circumstances. You always know what to say and how to say it. You think first, act later. You pobably never get mad. And if you do, you probably don’t yell or get physical. I’m the exact opposite of everything I just described. I’m better than I used to be, I think. I try to be a good Dad. I love my son and want him to be a good man. I want him to be a hard worker. I’d like him to have good morals. I don’t want him whoring around or taking advantage of girls. Treating them badly and being selfish. I’ve been a rat a few times to women and I’m not proud of it now. But when I was younger, I didn’t really care. I did have a loving relationship with Caroline. I knew I was lucky to have her and I never wanted to lose her so I was always good to her. She would’ve left me if I wasn’t. I tried to give her everything she wanted. I have to confess, I felt pretty funny with Amy at Caroline’s parents house. Amy brought them a nice plant and she made some bread and brought that. Everyone treated her well. Vic came over to me and gave me the thumbs up. I love those people but it usually takes me days to get over it after I’m around them. After I’m there, I always want my old life back. I love Amy, like I said, but it’s not the same. Like now, I wonder if I even really do. Sometimes I think I’m just losing it.
Went hunting today and didn’t see a thing. The weather’s too nice to hunt. Maybe I’ll try again tomorrow.
November 30, 2006 at 4:01 am
Zach:
you wrote:
“You always know what to say and how to say it. You think first, act later. You pobably never get mad. And if you do, you probably don’t yell or get physical”.
Well , in regard to always knowing what to say,
lovesamerica doesn’t seem to think so.
That said, it is pretty easy to seem that way on this forum. I put alot of time into my responses because they have an affect on someone I’ve grown to care about.
With lovesamerica’s last crisis , I was at a client and monitoring the board when I could. I could have shot out responses without giving much thought to it ,but what would that serve? If I would have spent the time I usually do, it wouldn’t have been fair to my client . If my client would have found me diddling with these responses, they would be looking for a new accountant.
At my age , I don’t get physical. Besides not being cool , people don’t take your arguments seriously and tend to avoid you if you fly off the handle .
I feel I can be the most help by assessing the situation and trying to come up with a solution.
you wrote:
I love those people but it usually takes me days to get over it after I’m around them. After I’m there, I always want my old life back. I love Amy, like I said, but it’s not the same. Like now, I wonder if I even really do. Sometimes I think I’m just losing it.
I’m concerned with your reaction to interactions with Caroline’s family.
I sense that you feel deep down inside that you do not deserve any happiness. Happiness makes you feel guilty.
I sensed it in your response in #791 and #793.
How close are you with your mother-in-law? Why don’t you sit down with her have a heart to heart and bare your soul? I think she sees you as one of her sons.
Zach, you have to make this work out. You have an opportunity to rebuild a family for four very deserving people. Don’t blow it.
November 30, 2006 at 11:32 am
Big Jake, you have got some nerve! Your last reply to Zach about “lovesamerica doesn’t seem to think so” and your re-worded explanation. RE-READ your post 785! Your confession. I’m young. Not stupid. You were monitoring all day you said. You could’ve responded. You wanted me to react to Mike a certain way so you didn’t respond. I don’t believe that one bit. I tell you I cry all night, I’m practically begging you to say SOMETHING, ANYTHING, but you chose to ignore me. And then you want me to think it was for my benefit. I think what you did was CRUEL. All you reminded me of was my father. He never cared how I felt. Any time I ever went to him it was never convenient for him and he always made me feel like my problems were silly. You’re right about one thing. I can handle my own crisis. It’s just nice to have someone to talk to who’s loving, kind, wiser, and more experienced at life. I thought that was you. I’ve always missed not having a father that really acted like a father. But you just sat there while I suffered. Thanks a lot. I even cried about it. I know I’m immature in a lot of things. I fantasized about Zach being “the man” and I fantasized about you being my father. You’re both hurtful men. That’s why I think you two bonded. My Mom may be bitter, but men made her that way and the longer I live, I see what she means. You are all so stupid about women. We cry and all we want from a man is for you to listen, some tenderness and a strong hug, and you walk around with your fingers in your ass wondering what the Hell to do. You’re all so focused on stopping the tears that your brains go on stall. Yet the remedy is so EASY. I thought about it all day at work yesterday. I think you’re sick of all of us cry babies coming to you. Everyone spills their guts on here but you, because you have the perfect life. You even picked on Mike. It wasn’t his fault that stupid killer chose to have an abortion. He wanted that baby. And then you say impregnating a woman in your book is the same as having a baby. Well, I believe life begins at conception, too, and so does Mike. He wanted that baby. Why do you think he lost feelings for that girl? That was his first real girlfriend. He’s not a whoremonger. He got caught up in love. And Zach, you were right. He was with that girl for three years and Jake looks down on him because Mike’s not the man of steel Jake is. Excuse us all for being such imperfect people. You HURT me very badly. More than anyone on here EVER did. Just knowing you were sitting there reading my PAIN and not taking 5 seconds to write and say something like, I’m with a client and can’t respond. I wasn’t worth it. I’m just an impersonal internet nobody to you. I bet a million bucks you wouldn’t have done that to your OWN daughter. Which is what I always wanted to be. Fantasy’s hurt when reality comes.
November 30, 2006 at 3:41 pm
Big Jake, I feel terrible.
I wish I could hug you.
November 30, 2006 at 5:09 pm
Wish could hug you ,too. we’ll talk later.
November 30, 2006 at 5:22 pm
I’m really sorry. I was just so mad and hurt.
Sorry, Zach. Please don’t hate me.
November 30, 2006 at 6:26 pm
lovesamerica, I don’t hate you, but what the hell was that? You wonder why we walk around with our fingers in our asses? Who the hell can figure you guys out? You change moods like night and day. How did I get sucked into your beef with Jake, anyway? You need to tranquilize that bear. Holy shit.
Jake, you can handle this one. I’ll get back to you later.
December 1, 2006 at 4:34 am
lovesamerica:
you wrote:
I’m young. Not stupid. You were monitoring all day you said. You could’ve responded. You wanted me to react to Mike a certain way so you didn’t respond. I don’t believe that one bit. I tell you I cry all night, I’m practically begging you to say SOMETHING, ANYTHING, but you chose to ignore me. And then you want me to think it was for my benefit. I think what you did was CRUEL. All you reminded me of was my father. He never cared how I felt. Any time I ever went to him it was never convenient for him and he always made me feel like my problems were silly. You’re right about one thing. I can handle my own crisis. It’s just nice to have someone to talk to who’s loving, kind, wiser, and more experienced at life. I thought that was you. I’ve always missed not having a father that really acted like a father. But you just sat there while I suffered.
Let me start off by saying that it never was my intention to hurt you by not responding until I got home that night. If I hurt you ,which I apparently have, I sincerely apologize.
Let me ask you a question. Whenever you posted prior to this time, who was always there to answer ? Did that person always ,without exception give you a straight from the heart ,truthful loving response? Why would that person intentionally do anything to cause you heartache?
That said. I do not lie. I take the time to thoughtfully consider the advice I give and I give that advice with a sincere desire to help.
Yes ,I wanted you to react to Mike in a no nonsense way. That way you Both know where you stand right from the beginning. And by the way, all my responses to this board are written on my HOME computer. Well , except for the one line response today. And that one line response left a trace that could compromise me at work . You see the boxes under leave a reply(name and mail)? once you post from a computer ,these boxes are always from then on filled in. It is possible to trace the user to the website,another reason I DO NOT LIKE TO RESPOND ANYWHERE BUT FROM HOME. I did it today because you made me feel like a real jerk . I just hope it doesn’t cost me big time.
I do not abandon the people I care about.
I thought you knew how I felt about you. The advice I give you is the same advice I give to my own daughters.
You have shot me with 2 arrows, one of Cupid’s arrows right in the heart and another right in my Achilles heal.
My Achilles heal? REFERENCE #531 to Zach
you wrote:
I wonder if your kids know how lucky they are to have a father like you. I could tell them. And like lovesamerica, I’d like to give you a hug.
Well , I haven’t always been the best father because I WAS ALWAYS TRYING TO BE THE BEST SON.
In the process, I have alienated my kids just as your father “alien”ated you. I became aware of it 15 years ago. This is my pennance”.
Being aware af a situation allows you to do something about it. My oldest daughter is 23. Very much like lovesamerica. I’m trying to make our relationship better and it is getting there”.
You guys seem to think that I walk on water, I’m the “Man of Steel” What did you write?
“Everyone spills their guts on here but you, because you have the perfect life”.Perfect Life ? What is the perfect life? My life is anything but perfect. I am just trying to do the best I can and take care of the people I care about.
“Perfect Life” huh. How about having a heart attack and losing a job ,being unemployed and having to start over with medical bills and college tuition to pay?You know what else? I have sleep apnea. I go to sleep every night with a machine to help me breath. If I didn’t use it I would have another heart attack. Just because I don’t bring it up ,it doesn’t mean I don’t have my share of problems.
You said I was hard on Mike.
you wrote:
You even picked on Mike. It wasn’t his fault that stupid killer chose to have an abortion. He wanted that baby. And then you say impregnating a woman in your book is the same as having a baby. Well, I believe life begins at conception, too, and so does Mike. He wanted that baby. Why do you think he lost feelings for that girl? That was his first real girlfriend. He’s not a whoremonger. He got caught up in love.
I’m going to say this once ,as I would say it to my own daughter….
My concern if you want it ,now ,only if you want it, is that YOU do not get caught up in love the way she did.
Let’s face it , MEN are irresponsible, they don’t know any better THEY “GET CAUGHT UP IN LOVE”- FRICKEN LA-DE-DA and its off to the next one. My concern is not for Mike ,it is for you.
Forwarned is forearmed.
Why do YOU think he lost feelings for that girl? Maybe because he feels a little bit responsible, a little bit guilty.
Look ,you were the one expressing concern that you were a challenge to him., that you didn’t know his intentions. All I’m saying is be careful. Mike sounds like a good guy,his past is his past. Everybody makes mistakes. We all move on and try to do better.
I’ve got another confession to make. I haven’t been feeling well lately so I went to my cardiologist. He told me that my stress test showed an irregular heart rhythm. I haven’t been sleeping the past couple of nights either over this. I was even considering saying Adios to you guys because ,well ,what good did I do for you?
September 17, 2021 at 8:58 pm
December 1, 2006 at 11:31 am
Big Jake, you did more good than you know. I am so mad at myself, and my heart aches that I mouthed off like I did. You’re the last person in the world I’d ever want to hurt. I really do have tears in my eyes typing this. You are such a sweet man. I feel so terrible. I don’t want you stressing or losing sleep over my hurtful words. I ambushed you. I’m so very, very sorry. You see,I have a secret, too. I won’t say it on here, buy I’m in Atlanta for a reason. The change was recommended to me. I’ve had depression problems all my life. I’m not good at life or relationships. Especially life. Most of the time I hate it. I try to be good at it, but I’m not. I rant on and say things I’m always sorry for. Lack of control, no brains, call it what you want. I was always a straight A student, and I out-perform just about everyone at my job, but inside myself, my head, things arn’t right. I do know this, I honestly care about you. I love the type of person you seem to be on here. If I could change places with any of your kids, I would. You say you have a strained relationship with them. I don’t understand how someone like you, so open, and honest, how your daughter (kids) can’t forgive whatever happened in the past, and just build on what she (they) could have with you now? They don’t know how lucky they are. If dreams could come true, you would be my Dad, and you couldn’t walk in the house without me running to you and giving you a big hug. I’d do all kinds of nice things for you, and I’d enjoy doing it. Maybe adios would be the best thing for us. I am not a very nice person at times, and the most important thing is that you stay well. You don’t need to be the problem solver for everyone. You have your own children, wife, problems, etc.. You just have a strength and wisdom the rest of us don’t seem to have. But, it does get personal, doesn’t it? And then people like me hurt you. I would never want to jeopardize your job, either. Where I work, they allow us personal internet access on our breaks and lunch hours. We get 15 minutes in the morning and afternoon. Some of the employees pay their bills on line during that time, do banking, and shop. The company doesn’t care, but I have always been afraid to do the banking and the bills because the company does monitor internet use and I wouldn’t want them seeing my personal information. I usually get on here in the morning while I’m having a cup of coffee and before I shower, and on my breaks and lunch hour if I’m there. Big Jake, please forgive me for hurting you. I’m a mixed up person. Please believe me when I tell you I love you, because I do love who you are. I’m so sorry. You’re a great man. I hurt myself more than I hurt you when I did that. Everytime I think about it, it will bother me now. I’m sorry. Always remember something. Lovesamerica loved you.
December 1, 2006 at 3:15 pm
lovesamerica:
I’ve said it before.I do not abandon the people I care about.
GO TO MY POST #529 “Footprints in the Sand” by Mary Stevenson. I have always felt a deep “loneliness to the core of my soul” as Red Dawn put it. I have also felt Jesus’s presense in my life . He will never abandon you . Neither will I.
http://www.interviewwithgod.com/psalm23.htm
I really look at you as if you were one of my own daughters. I love all of you.
December 1, 2006 at 5:03 pm
Big Jake, I know you’re the type of person that accepts my apology, and I don’t want to beat it to death, but I have to tell you, I can’t shake this awful feeling I have for doing that. It’s been on my mind all day, and I keep tearing up about it. I’m s ashamed of myself. I don’t wnat you to heart problems and be sick. I’m sorry I accused you of having a perfect life. What I meant, was that you had perfect relationships. Even though you think you let your kids down, you really didn’t. Not in your heart. If my Dad came to me today and said he was sorry for every hurt he ever did to me and wanted to start over, I’d throw my arms around him and say “let’s start over”. He’ll never do that. But I made my mind up a long time ago, if he ever did, it would be okay. Nothing matters in life except your relationships. That’s what gives your life meaning. The rest is just fluff.
I’ve never felt loved by either my Mom or my Dad. My Dad left us and started a new family with someone else. And my Mom was so busy hating him, my Mom didn’t really notice our needs. The two of them always used us a pawns. I’m not trying to get sympathy here, I’m just letting you know that I’ve cried a million tears in my short life. I don’t even know why they had me. I would love to be Daddy’s little girl. I would love to have a real, loving family. The only way that will ever happen, is if I make my own. I’m afraid of getting hurt that way, too. I don’t want to hurt anybody, ever. Especially you. I’m going to go to a catholic church that’s a few block from my apartment bhilding. I hope there’s a priest there. I’m going to tell him I don’t know anything about confession, but I want to confess what I did to you. I’m sorry I disappointed you. It’s killing me inside.
December 1, 2006 at 9:39 pm
Jake, don’t worry me. You take care of yourself. I’m the worst offender asking you to counsel me. You’ve helped me more than anyone ever did. You’re tops in my book, buddy. I love ya.
December 1, 2006 at 11:28 pm
Big Jake: Like Zach, I want you to please, take care of yourself. I feel so badly that you have some health issues, and I will say prayers for you. Believe it or not, this whole episode with you and lovesamerica has upset me. I know she didn’t mean it, and I know she’s hurting, probably more than you. I believe she really cares for you. If she didn’t, she wouldn’t have gotten so angry. I don’t think she would’ve reacted like that to any of us. She loves you the best.
I know you have a great reward in Heaven. I love the way you think, your compassion, your sincerity. I pray God gives you the desires of your heart. I think you’re a wonderful, deserving man. I care a lot about you, too.
God Bless
December 2, 2006 at 3:57 am
“There comes a time..
“…when all the cosmic tumblers
have clicked into place…
“…and the universe
opens itself up for a few seconds…
“…to show you what’s possible.”
The result of this phenomena is
Heaven on Earth.
Did any of you ever wonder how we all were brought together at this place and at this time and for what purpose?
We have interacted now for 5 months .We have grown so very close to each other . We care about each other with true Christian love and concern. We have renewed our faith and strengthened our religious convictions. We have worked together to try and solve each others problems. We have been successful.
——————————————————————————–
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the Vine-dresser. Every branch in Me that bears no fruit He will take away; and every branch that bears fruit He will cleanse, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the Word I have spoken to you. Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remain on the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I AM THE VINE AND YOU ARE THE BRANCHES. He who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; FOR WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING.” John 15:1-5
December 2, 2006 at 4:32 am
Everyone:
I want to tell you all how proud and grateful I am to call each of you my friend, brother or sister. I appreciate your concern for my health and well-being. I am ok . That’s why I go to the doctor,watch my diet ,& go to the Gym.
You all are a very special part of my life. I have come to believe that miracles are a part of everyday life. Only you have to be aware of them, like watching for shooting stars and actually seeing them.
Zach ,you and Amy are a prime example , just like Amelia(lovesamerica) and Mike. You are my brother!
Just to clear the air , Amelia ,I don’t know what language I have to learn to speak to get you to really understand how much I care about you.
I REALLY DO SEE YOU AS ONE OF MY DAUGHTERS!
I only want the very best for you. Mike is the answer to all of our prayers. I said that before. You have to help him stay on the straight and narrow. That is what a relationship is all about. Make sure it starts out on the right foot.
You didn’t disappoint me. There is NOTHING to apologize for. Stop beating yourself up ,you are making me feel bad! I love you!
And Angel, I have to apologize for not getting back to you. Alot has happened. This is my Bible Study Group .We all are part of it. I’m not a “Bible Thumper”, never was. What we all are experiencing is Jesus Christ working through us as a group, developing us as his “Branches”.
I really live for you guys,all of you!
December 2, 2006 at 7:05 am
The life of Jesus Christ. Was he the Son of God? A brief look at the life of Jesus and why it’s not blind faith to believe in him…
By Paul E. Little
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It is impossible for us to know conclusively whether God exists and what He is like unless He takes the initiative and reveals Himself. We must know what He is like and His attitude toward us. Suppose we knew He existed, but that He was like Adolf Hitler–capricious, vicious, prejudiced, and cruel. What a horrible realization that would be!
We must scan the horizon of history to see if there is any clue to God’s revelation. There is one clear clue. In an obscure village in Palestine, almost 2,000 years ago, a Child was born in a stable. Today the entire world is still celebrating the birth of Jesus.
He lived in obscurity until He was thirty, and then began a public ministry that lasted three years. It was destined to change the course of history. He was a kindly person and we’re told that “the common people heard Him gladly.” And, “He taught as One who had authority, and not as their teachers of the Law” (Matthew 7:29).
The Life of Jesus Christ. His Story Begins
It soon became apparent, however, that He was making shocking and startling statements about Himself. He began to identify Himself as far more than a remarkable teacher or prophet. He began to say clearly that He was God. He made His identity the focal point of His teaching. The all-important question He put to those who followed Him was, “Who do you say I am?” When Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:15-16), Jesus was not shocked, nor did He rebuke Peter. On the contrary, He commended him!
He made the claim explicitly, and His hearers got the full impact of His words. We are told, “The Jews tried all the harder to kill Him; not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God” (John 5:18).
On another occasion he said, “I and My Father are One.” Immediately the Jews wanted to stone Him. He asked them for which good work they wanted to kill Him. They replied, “We are not stoning You for any of these but for blasphemy, because You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).
Jesus clearly claimed attributes which only God has. When a paralyzed man was let down through the roof wanting to be healed by Him, He said, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.” This caused a great to-do among the religious leaders, who said in their hearts, “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
At the critical moment when His life was at stake, the high priest put the question to Him directly: “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. “You have heard the blasphemy” (Mark 14:61-64).
So close was His connection with God that He equated a person’s attitude to Himself with the person’s attitude toward God. Thus, to know Him was to know God (John 8:19; 14:7). To see Him was to see God (12:45; 14:9). To believe in Him was to believe in God (12:44; 14:1). To receive Him was to receive God (Mark 9:37). To hate Him was to hate God (John 15:23). And to honor Him was to honor God (5:23).
Jesus Christ – the Son of God?
As we face the claims of Christ, there are only four possibilities. He was either a liar, a lunatic, a legend, or the Truth. If we say He is not the Truth, we are automatically affirming one of the other three alternatives, whether we realize it or not.
(1) One possibility is that Jesus lied when He said He was God–that He knew He was not God, but deliberately deceived His hearers to lend authority to His teaching. Few, if any, seriously hold this position. Even those who deny His deity affirm that He was a great moral teacher. They fail to realize those two statements are a contradiction. Jesus could hardly be a great moral teacher if, on the most crucial point of His teaching–His identity–He was a deliberate liar.
(2) A kinder, though no less shocking possibility, is that He was sincere but self-deceived. We have a name for a person today who thinks he is God. That name is lunatic, and it certainly would apply to Christ if He were deceived on this all-important issue. But as we look at the life of Christ, we see no evidence of the abnormality and imbalance we find in a deranged person. Rather, we find the greatest composure under pressure.
(3) The third alternative is that all of the talk about His claiming to be God is a legend–that what actually happened was that His enthusiastic followers, in the third and fourth centuries, put words into His mouth He would have been shocked to hear. Were He to return, He would immediately repudiate them.
The legend theory has been significantly refuted by many discoveries of modern archeology. These have conclusively shown that the four biographies of Christ were written within the lifetime of contemporaries of Christ. Some time ago Dr. William F. Albright, world-famous archaeologist now retired from Johns Hopkins University, said that there was no reason to believe that any of the Gospels were written later than A.D. 70. For a mere legend about Christ, in the form of the Gospel, to have gained the circulation and to have had the impact it had, without one shred of basis in fact, is incredible.
For this to have happened would be as fantastic as for someone in our own time to write a biography of the late John F. Kennedy and in it say he claimed to be God, to forgive people’s sins, and to have risen from the dead. Such a story is so wild it would never get off the ground because there are still too many people around who knew Kennedy. The legend theory does not hold water in the light of the early date of the Gospel manuscripts.
(4) The only other alternative is that Jesus spoke the truth. From one point of view, however, claims don’t mean much. Talk is cheap. Anyone can make claims. There have been others who have claimed to be God. I could claim to be God, and you could claim to be God, but the question all of us must answer is, “What credentials do we bring to substantiate our claim?” In my case it wouldn’t take you five minutes to disprove my claim. It probably wouldn’t take too much more to dispose of yours. But when it comes to Jesus of Nazareth, it’s not so simple. He had the credentials to back up His claim. He said, “Even though you do not believe Me, believe the evidence of the miracles, that you may learn and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father” (John 10:38).
Evidence from the Life of Jesus
First, His moral character coincided with His claims. Many asylum inmates claim to be celebrities or deities. But their claims are belied by their characters. Not so with Christ. He is unique–as unique as God.
Jesus Christ was sinless. The caliber of His life was such that He was able to challenge His enemies with the question, “Can any of you prove Me guilty of sin?” (John 8:46). He was met by silence, even though He addressed those who would have liked to point out a flaw in His character.
We read of the temptations of Jesus, but we never hear of a confession of sin on His part. He never asked for forgiveness, though He told His followers to do so.
This lack of any sense of moral failure on Jesus’ part is astonishing in view of the fact that it is completely contrary to the experience of the saints and mystics in all ages. The closer men and women draw to God, the more overwhelmed they are with their own failure, corruption, and shortcomings. The closer one is to a shining light, the more he realizes his need of a bath. This is true also, in the moral realm, for ordinary mortals.
It is also striking that John, Paul, and Peter, all of whom were trained from earliest childhood to believe in the universality of sin, all spoke of the sinlessness of Christ: “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in His mouth” (1 Peter 2:22).
Pilate, no friend of Jesus, said, “What evil has He done?” He implicitly recognized Christ’s innocence. And the Roman centurion who witnessed the death of Christ said, “Surely He was the Son of God” (Matthew. 27:54).
Second, Christ demonstrated a power over natural forces which could belong only to God, the Author of these forces.
He stilled a raging storm of wind and waves on the Sea of Galilee. In doing this He provoked from those in the boat the awestruck question, “Who is this? Even the wind and waves obey Him!” (Mark 4:41) He turned water into wine, fed 5,000 people from five loaves and two fish, gave a grieving widow back her only son by raising him from the dead, and brought to life the dead daughter of a shattered father. To an old friend He said, “Lazarus, come forth!” and dramatically raised him from the dead. It is most significant that His enemies did not deny this miracle. Rather, they tried to kill Him. “If we let Him go on like this,” they said, “everyone will believe in Him” (John11:48).
Third, Jesus demonstrated the Creator’s power over sickness and disease. He made the lame to walk, the dumb to speak, and the blind to see. Some of His healings were of congenital problems not susceptible to psychosomatic cure. The most outstanding was that of the blind man whose case is recorded in John 9. Though the man couldn’t answer his speculative questioners, his experience was enough to convince him. “One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!” he declared. He was astounded that his friends didn’t recognize this Healer as the Son of God. “Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind,” he said (John 9:25, 32). To him the evidence was obvious.
Fourth, Jesus’ supreme credential to authenticate His claim to deity was His resurrection from the dead. Five times in the course of His life He predicted He would die. He also predicted how He would die and that three days later He would rise from the dead and appear to His disciples.
Surely this was the great test. It was a claim that was easy to verify. It either happened or it didn’t.
Both friends and enemies of the Christian faith have recognized the resurrection of Christ to be the foundation stone of the faith. Paul, the great apostle, wrote, “If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith” (1 Corinthians 15:14). Paul rested his whole case on the bodily resurrection of Christ. Either He did or He didn’t rise from the dead. If He did, it was the most sensational event in all of history.
If Jesus is the Son of God…
If Christ rose, we know with certainty that God exists, what He is like, and how we may know Him in personal experience. The universe takes on meaning and purpose, and it is possible to experience the living God in contemporary life.
On the other hand, if Christ did not rise from the dead, Christianity is an interesting museum piece–nothing more. It has no objective validity or reality. Though it is a nice wishful thought, it certainly isn’t worth getting steamed up about. The martyrs who went singing to the lions, and contemporary missionaries who have given their lives in Ecuador and Congo while taking this message to others, have been poor deluded fools.
The attack on Christianity by its enemies has most often concentrated on the Resurrection because it has been clearly seen that this event is the crux of the matter. A remarkable attack was the one contemplated in the early ’30s by a young British lawyer. He was convinced that the Resurrection was mere fable and fantasy. Sensing that it was the foundation stone of the Christian faith, he decided to do the world a favor by once and for all exposing this fraud and superstition. As a lawyer, he felt he had the critical faculties to rigidly sift evidence and to admit nothing as evidence which did not meet the stiff criteria for admission into a law court today.
However, while Frank Morrison was doing his research, a remarkable thing happened. The case was not nearly as easy as he had supposed. As a result, the first chapter in his book, Who Moved the Stone? is entitled, “The Book That Refused to Be Written.” In it he described how, as he examined the evidence, he became persuaded against his will, of the fact of the bodily resurrection of Christ.
The Death of Jesus
Jesus’ death was by public execution on a cross. The government said it was for blasphemy. Jesus said it was to pay for our sin. After being severely tortured, Jesus’ wrists and feet were nailed to a cross where He hung, eventually dying of slow suffocation. A sword was thrust into His side to confirm His death.
The body of Jesus was then wrapped in linens covered with approximately 100 pounds of gummy-wet spices. His body was placed in a solid rock tomb A 1 1/2- 2 ton boulder was rolled by levers to secure the entrance. Because Jesus had publicly said He would rise from the dead in three days, a guard of trained Roman soldiers was stationed at the tomb. And an official Roman seal was affixed to the tomb entrance declaring it government property.
In spite of all this, three days later the body was gone. Only the grave linens remained, in the form of the body, but caved in. The boulder formerly sealing the tomb was found up a slope, some distance away from the tomb.
Was Jesus’ Resurrection Just a Story?
The earliest explanation circulated was that the disciples stole the body! In Matthew 28:11-15, we have the record of the reaction of the chief priests and the elders when the guards gave them the infuriating and mysterious news that the body was gone. They gave the soldiers money and told them to explain that the disciples had come at night and stolen the body while they were asleep. That story was so false that Matthew didn’t even bother to refute it! What judge would listen to you if you said that while you were asleep you knew it was your neighbor who came into your house and stole your television set? Who knows what goes on while he’s asleep? Testimony like this would be laughed out of any court.
Furthermore, we are faced with a psychological and ethical impossibility. Stealing the body of Christ is something totally foreign to the character of the disciples and all that we know of them. It would mean that they were perpetrators of a deliberate lie which was responsible for the deception and ultimate death of thousands of people. It is inconceivable that, even if a few of the disciples had conspired and pulled off this theft, they would never have told the others.
Each of the disciples faced the test of torture and martyrdom for his statements and beliefs. Men and women will die for what they believe to be true, though it may actually be false. They do not, however, die for what they know is a lie. If ever a man tells the truth, it is on his deathbed. And if the disciples had taken the body, and Christ was still dead, we would still have the problem of explaining His alleged appearances.
A second hypothesis is that the authorities, Jewish or Roman, moved the body! But why? Having put guards at the tomb, what would be their reason for moving the body? Also, what about the silence of the authorities in the face of the apostles’ bold preaching about the Resurrection in Jerusalem? The ecclesiastical leaders were seething with rage, and did everything possible to prevent the spread of this message that Jesus rose from the dead. They arrested Peter and John and beat and threatened them, in an attempt to close their mouths.
But there was a very simple solution to their problem. If they had Christ’s body, they could have paraded it through the streets of Jerusalem. In one fell swoop they would have successfully smothered Christianity in its cradle. That they did not do this bears eloquent testimony to the fact that they did not have the body.
Another popular theory has been that the women, distraught and overcome by grief, missed their way in the dimness of the morning and went to the wrong tomb. In their distress they imagined Christ had risen because the tomb was empty. This theory, however, falls before the same fact that destroys the previous one. If the women went to the wrong tomb, why did the high priests and other enemies of the faith not go to the right tomb and produce the body? Further, it is inconceivable that Peter and John would succumb to the same mistake, and certainly Joseph of Arimathea, owner of the tomb, would have solved the problem. In addition, it must be remembered that this was a private burial ground, not a public cemetery. There was no other tomb nearby that would have allowed them to make this mistake.
The swoon theory has also been advanced to explain the empty tomb. In this view, Christ did not actually die. He was mistakenly reported to be dead, but had swooned from exhaustion, pain, and loss of blood. When He was laid in the coolness of the tomb, He revived. He came out of the tomb and appeared to His disciples, who mistakenly thought He had risen from the dead.
This is a theory of modern construction. It first appeared at the end of the eighteenth century. It is significant that not a suggestion of this kind has come down from antiquity among all the violent attacks which have been made on Christianity. All of the earliest records are emphatic about Jesus’ death.
But let us assume for a moment that Christ was buried alive and swooned. Is it possible to believe that He would have survived three days in a damp tomb without food or water or attention of any kind? Would He have had the strength to extricate Himself from the graveclothes, push the heavy stone away from the mouth of the grave, overcome the Roman guards, and walk miles on feet that had been pierced with spikes? Such a belief is more fantastic than the simple fact of the Resurrection itself.
Even the German critic David Strauss, who by no means believes in the Resurrection, rejected this idea as incredible. He said:
It is impossible that One who had just come forth from the grave half dead, who crept about weak and ill, who stood in the need of medical treatment, of bandaging, strengthening, and tender care, and who at last succumbed to suffering, could ever have given the disciples the impression that He was a conqueror over death and the grave; that He was the Prince of Life.
Finally, if this theory is correct, Christ Himself was involved in flagrant lies. His disciples believed and preached that He was dead but came alive again. Jesus did nothing to dispel this belief, but rather encouraged it.
The only theory that adequately explains the empty tomb is the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
What the Life of Jesus Christ Means for You
If Jesus Christ rose from the dead, proving He is God, He is alive today. He is willing to be more than worshiped. He is willing to be known and to come into our lives. Jesus said, “Behold, I stand at the door [of your heart] and knock; if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him” (Revelation 3:20).
The late Carl Gustav Jung said, “The central neurosis of our time is emptiness.” All of us have a deep longing for our life to have meaning and depth. Jesus offers us a more meaningful, abundant life, which comes through a relationship with Him. Jesus said, “I came that they might have life, and have it abundantly” (John 10:10).
Because Jesus died on the cross, taking with Him all of humankind’s sin, He now offers us forgiveness, acceptance and a genuine relationship with Him.
Right now you can invite Jesus Christ into your life. You could say to Him something like, “Jesus, thank You for dying on the cross for my sins. I ask You to forgive me and to come into my life right now. Thank You for giving me a relationship with You.”
December 2, 2006 at 8:02 am
What Kind Of Joy
What Kind Of Joy
Acts 5:41; acts 16:22-25; Jn 5:10-11
Anybody in their right mind
Would’ve given up their preaching and headed for home
They’ve been warned a hundred times
But something inside them keeps giving them hope
And just when you think they’d be crying
Instead of the tears, there’s joy in their eyes
What kind of joy is this
That counts it a blessing to suffer
What kind of joy is this
That gives the prisoner his song
What kind of joy could stare death in the face
And see it as sweet victory
This is the joy of a soul that’s forgiven and free
Anybody else with his pain
Would want to shake their fist at heaven
And give up the fight
‘Cause trouble had been Paul’s middle name
Ever since he’d been captured by God’s blinding light
But just when his hope should be dying
If you listen you’ll hear him singing a song
What kind of joy is this
That counts it a blessing to suffer
What kind of joy is this
That gives the prisoner his song
What kind of joy could stare death in the face
And see it as sweet victory
This is the joy of a soul that’s forgiven and free
What kind of joy is this
The Father has promised His children
What kind of joy is this
That Jesus has come to reveal
What kind of joy could give hope in this world
To someone just like you and me
This is the joy of a soul that’s forgiven and free
I’ve found the joy for my souls is forgiven and free
written Steven Curtis Chapman
c1990 Sparrow Song (a div. of The Sparrow Corp.)/Careers Music, Inc. (BMG)/Greg Nelson Music (admin. by Careers Music, Inc.) (BMG) (BMI)
December 2, 2006 at 1:49 pm
Zach, I never got around to apologizing to you directly. I grouped you and Big Jake together because the three of us have interacted the most, and I was mad at both of you and I’m not even sure why I was mad at you, but I was. I’m nuts. You two are special in a different way than the others to me. Neither one of you are perfect on your own, but if I could create the perfect man, it would be the two of you combined into one. I’m glad you didn’t strike back at me. I thought for sure you would and I was scared when I would get on here and see you had posted. You are firey. If I was a man, I’d be afraid to piss you off. No offense, but Big Jake doesn’t fire up the way you do. He’s nicer. You’ll probably get more like him as you get older. But right now, I think you hate the same way you love. With all your heart.
Angel, you seem like the female version of Big Jake. Thank you for sticking up for me. I didn’t deserve it, but I appreciate it. I’m sorry my big mouth upset you. You’ve gone through a lot lately, and I know you get on here to share, find answers, peace and consolation. I’m truly sorry. I learned a lesson. I’ll never do that again.
Now, Big Jake, I’ll probably never stop apologizing to you. I walked to that church last night and a priest was there. He was so nice to me. I cried and he even hugged me. I didn’t tell him you were an internet friend, I just told him that you were someone I knew and that I hurt you. I told him a lot of things about my life, and he told me I could talk to him anytime. I like him a lot. He was old and sweet. He had the nicest eyes and smile. He didn’t even try to make me catholic. He just listened. Jake, there’s a lot of things I haven’t told on here. I really loved (love) my Dad. More than my Mom. He broke my heart when he left. I have never gotten over it. I don’t blame him a bit for leaving because looking back, to be blunt, my Mom was a real bitch to him. He used to read to me when I was little. He took me everywhere with him. He’d play games with me. He used to bring me surprises home from work. When Zach talked about playing with Cassie and letting her stand on his snackbar so he could talk to her, and then letting her jump to him and touch the ceiling, it made me cry because that was me and my Dad. Then he was gone and everything changed. My Mom doesn’t like me because she says I look and act just like my Dad. She loves me because I’m her daughter, but she doesn’t like me as a person. She’s told me that countless times. She hates men. She’s been hurt by other men she saw after my Dad left. Most of them were jerks. One old coot even tried something with me once. I told Mom. She didn’t believe me. He was a jerk. I hit him with a bookend and told him if he ever came back to our house I’d call the police and tell them he molested me. He didn’t, but I told him I would say that and there would be an investigation and he’d be in a world of shit. That scared him. He broke up with my Mom after that and she always blamed me for it. My Mom had me counseling forever. She was the one that needed the counseling, but I was stuck in it and they were always trying to change me. I do miss home and my old friends. But my home life sucked there. My sister gets along fine with my Mom, but she’s just like her. She’s had a few guys hurt her, so she hates men, too. It’s no fun being around them for very long. All they do is bitch, whine , and complain. They drive me crazy.
I read what you said about Jesus. I asked him into my heart a long time ago. I did try to end my life a couple of times. That’s another reason why I was in counseling. It was only when I met a christian girl and she shared the gospel that things changed for me. I love Jesus but I know I disappoint him all the time. I think you’re the angel he sent for me, and I hurt you. I love you, Jake. Honest.
I love all of you. I’ll never mouth off like that again. Please forgive me.
December 2, 2006 at 2:16 pm
lovesamerica:
Good Morning, Amelia
How are you feeling today?
Amelia, you’re breaking my heart
You’re shaking my confidence daily
Oh, Amelia, I’m down on my knees
I’m begging you please to come home
Amelia, you’re breaking my heart
You’re shaking my confidence daily
Oh, Amelia, I’m down on my knees
I’m begging you please to come home
Come on home
Making up in the afternoon with Amelia
trying to break her gloom (making up)
I got up and washed my face
I got on my computer
Thanks to God’s Grace
Amelia, you’re breaking my heart
You’re shaking my confidence daily
Oh, Amelia, I’m down on my knees
I’m begging you please to come home
Come on home
Jubilation, she loves me again,
I fall on the floor and I’m laughing,
Jubilation, she loves me again,
I fall on the floor and I’m laughing
December 2, 2006 at 3:05 pm
lovesamerica:
you wrote:
I really loved (love) my Dad. More than my Mom. He broke my heart when he left. I have never gotten over it. I don’t blame him a bit for leaving because looking back, to be blunt, my Mom was a real bitch to him. He used to read to me when I was little. He took me everywhere with him. He’d play games with me. He used to bring me surprises home from work. When Zach talked about playing with Cassie and letting her stand on his snackbar so he could talk to her, and then letting her jump to him and touch the ceiling, it made me cry because that was me and my Dad.
Do you still have any contact with your Dad?
Can you send him a Christmas card?
Can you tell him what you wrote above?
I’m an old softy ,I know. But ya got me all teary -eyed with that. It doesn’t help that my wife and kids are watching “Its a Wonderful Life ” while I’m on the computer.
By the way ,that movie stopped me from doing myself in when I was a teenager and helped make me the person I am today. You see George Bailey was my role model.
I don’t care how hard hearted a person may be. If he shared that kind of experience with his child so long ago, it is etched into his heart.
Don’t you think your Dad has regrets about not having a relationship with you?
Sounds to me that if you want that,you can get it back. Have a little courage and send out a feeler. A Christmas card would be the thing. Just enough writing space .
Maybe you two can meet at a diner for a cup of coffee? If distance is a problem ,you can talk on the phone.
Amelia, you are a real sweetheart, you are just hurting. I really do wish you were my daughter or my daughter-in -law. I really do love you.
December 2, 2006 at 9:51 pm
loveamerica, your last response to me, I’m not sure, but what you said about me, is that a compliment? And what’s this Jake’s, nicer? He is a nice guy. No doubt about that. But, nicer than me? How can you be sure? And if I’m firey, what are you? I sure the HELL don’t want to be caught in YOUR crosshairs. I think Mike has a tiger by the tail. I didn’t strike back because I try not to fight with women. Any man knows that’s a losing battle. Because if we do win, we still will pay. Somehow, someway, we’ll pay. Because if they win, there’s peace. Peace and piece. If they lose, it’s hell because they usually stay mad for days, and then there’s no peace, and no piece. (I just threw that in because I know you all think I’m a skank.) I’m not skank, but I think like a skank.
I’m sorry if I’ve hurt you in the past. We’re alike, because I say things without thinking most of the time. I do have a temper, but it’s not as bad as it used to be. I don’t kill people anymore. I just leave them maimed. KIDDING!!! I really have mellowed. You are a sweetheart. Fiesty. Life with you wouldn’t be boring. You’ll make Mike, or whoever, a fine wife someday. I’m sure of it.
By the way Jake,I took your advice and talked to Caroline’s Mom. I should’ve done that a long time ago. My homelife wasn’t that great either growing up. Caroline’s family are so genuine. They are giving and loving. I love those people and Lucy (Caroline’s Mom) assured me that I will always be her son. She loved Amy, and gave us her blessing. She wants me to be happy and have more children. And she wants to be included in our family. One thing that hit my heart was when she told me she remembered the first time Caroline met me. Caroline came home and told her she met the man she was going to marry. Lucy asked her how she knew that. Caroline told her it was the way I looked at her. She just knew I was the one. If I could just see her one more time, hold her, kiss her….just one more time.
Talk to you later.
December 3, 2006 at 12:20 am
zach:
I am glad you had that heart to heart with Caroline’s Mom. She also needs to heal a broken heart. you wrote that she wants to be included in your family.
How did I know that? I really am not THAT good.
Look at my posts #808 and 809 . I really feel that the inspiration is coming from above. What do you think?
December 3, 2006 at 1:45 am
BIG JAKE!!!!!!! #813!!!!That song has haunted me all my life!!! What are you doing???? Just so you know, I don’t like my name. It’s so old, it might as well be something like Hilda or Bertha. Do you know ANYONE else besides me that has this name? I don’t know why my parents punished me by sticking me with that stinkin name, but they did. Almost everyone calls me Amy. My name is Amelia Louise. I’m named after somebody but I don’t know who. Probably the same dork that song was written for.
I love George Bailey. That’s one of my favorite movies. I wish you and I could watch it together.
The problem with my Dad and me is his wife. She tolerated us. She’s snotty. We’d go over there and she always acted like she couldn’t wait for us to leave. She has had several good fights with my Mom and took it out on us. I got mouthy with her once when I was a teenager. I got sick of the way she answered me all the time and how she made me feel. There was a movie out that we all wanted to see and my Dad wanted to take me, my sister, and the other 2 to the movies. She acted all pissy and told my Dad to come into the kitchen. I snuck out in the hallway so I could hear, and she was telling him how expensive it was to take ALL of us to the movies and what about HER kids? That they send all their extra money to my Mom and let her take us. I went back in the den, and when my Dad came in he said we weren’t going now. He started giving some lame excuse. I walked out into the kitchen and told her I heard what she said to my father. She started yelling at me, calling me a brat and a sneak. I started crying, my Dad comes out, and guess who’s side he takes? When Sunday came, and Dad was in the car letting it warm up, on my way out, I stopped by her and told her I hated her guts and there wasn’t anything in the world that could happen to her that would be bad enough. I can’t remember what she said to me, but I remember telling her to kiss my ass. Ordinarily, my Mom would’ve punished me for talking to an adult like that, but when I told her she laughed. I told Dad when I got out of the car that I was never going back there again. He never forced us to come and visit because his wife didn’t want us there anyway. He always remembered our birthdays and got us Christmas presents. His life is with her and me and my sister are just something he had to pay for. There’s lots of other episodes where things have been said. I called him a wuss once. Another time I told him I’d have more respect for him if he left Mom for a MAN instead of that amazon he married. I’ve told him I hated him. My mouth. Gets me in more trouble. I can’t stand his wife. I really don’t want anything to happen to her, but if something did, oh well. He called me after I got down here, and he told me to call him if I ever needed anything. One time out of the blue he sent me $300 with a note that said he knew I could use it. He never signs anything “love”, just “Dad”. I have told him I loved him and one time I cried and told him he hurt me when he left. He said it hurt him to leave his kids, but he said if I’m ever in a terrible relationship, I’ll understand. But you know what? I do forgive him. I just want him to be like he was. He changed.
Zach, it was a compliment. I love your flare, your passion, everything about you. No one thinks you’re a skank. You’re a little crude sometimes, but somehow you’re able to get away with it. It’s just you. And we love you.
December 3, 2006 at 3:29 am
lovesamerica;
You’ve got to be kidding me! you have such a pretty name! I did a Google search and there are alot of women with that combination.Women of all ages , but I’ll grant you alot of refined “older ladies”. Sorry, but I really like it.Sounds like the name of a poet or an actress. I’ve got it, a famous female mystery writer. Sounds sophisticated.
The “dork” the song was written for was named Cecelia not Amelia! I personaly changed the lyrics to get a smile out of you!
Hope it worked!
December 3, 2006 at 5:03 am
lovesamerica:
OK Funtime is over ,lets get to work. Somehow I got a different picture of your Dad from post 817 than from the previous posts.
Your parents breakup, you said your Dad walked out . Was it marital infidelity or just incompatability. My gut tells me that it was incompatibility. A loving father doesn’t stray.
His major focus in a failing marriage shifts from the wife to the kids. That’s why alot of “bad ” marriages don’t end but instead continue “for the sake of the kids”.
The kids then suffer because they become the focused cause of the misery of the two incompatable parents.
Sometimes, as painful as it seems, it is better for a failing marriage to end. In the end ,there are no winners ,just survivors.
You are old enough now to understand that your parents just didn’t get along. I see them both as victims of each other. Kids are the ones who suffer the most in divorce. Why ? Because sometimes they blame themselves for the breakup. They feel that if they were just better behaved or less demanding or smarter or prettier ,maybe mommy or daddy wouldn’t have walked out. It’s not their fault ,of course but it is in their eyes.
Think about it. First you said your father was cold and that he abandoned your family for a new wife and a new family. Now you admit that he was warm and concerned enough to send you $300 because he knew you could use it and to call if you ever needed anything. Amy , I think you let your anger get in the way of your reasoning.
Men are not demonstrative in their expression of affection. For example ,you said your father doesn’t sign cards Love ,Dad,just “Dad”.
No excuses here but he didn’t sign it Mr .xxxxx or “The Guy who sends the child support”.
“Dad” conotes love. It is always better to write it out. It is even better to say I love you!!! And give a big hug!!!
Human frailty, or should I say stupidity stops us.
Your father put himself in a tough spot. If he sends you, your mother and sisters money, he takes away from wife#2 and kids. The situation can’t help but breed resentment and skirmishes and ultimatly open warfare.
I venture to say that the situation tears him up inside,too. Look, I only know you from the other side of a computer ,and you have stolen my heart. I can only imagine what he has gone through.
You have to send him a card telling him how you really feel about him. If you miss him ,tell him .If you love him ,tell him. If you want to see him,make it happen. You are a strong young beautiful intelligent independent woman.
YOU KNOW WHAT YOU WANT.DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
DON’T BE AFRAID TO TELL YOUR DAD THAT YOU LOVE HIM,YOU MISS HIM AND YOU WANT TO SEE HIM.
Like I said to Zach,time is fleeting. I will never get another chance to hug my Dad. It isn’t too late for you to hug yours.
December 3, 2006 at 5:15 am
lovesamerica:
I know you told him already,Tell him again and again and again until he gets it!
Tell him that you understand him now that you are older.
Tell him you forgive him for walking out.
I f you are sorry for calling him a Wuss tell him . But also tell him to stop being a wuss because you need him in your life!
December 3, 2006 at 5:39 am
lovesamerica:
How is it going with Mike?
I just got a picture in my head of your father walking you down the aisle and handing you off to Mike.
Plan for it.
MAKE IT HAPPEN!
December 3, 2006 at 1:37 pm
Big Jake, since you’re usually 100% on everything, I’m going to call my Dad today. I hope he’s there, and I hope he will give me the time to talk. I want him back. I really love him and want him in my life. I don’t care what he ever did.
I don’t know all the details about why my parents split up. I remember them fighting all the time. I can remember being at the kitchen table and they got into a shouting match and my sister and I were crying and they blamed each other for that. It was shortly after that that he left. I used to sit on my bed and hear them fight and I would cry and cover my ears. My Dad would come into my room and always tell me he was sorry and that he loved me. My Mom never did that. She always had (has) attitude, and to hear her talk, the names she calls my Dad, I would get my mouth washed out for saying those things.
My Mom is materialistic. She always wants nice things. Jewelry. Clothes. Cars. House. She’s a spender. My Dad makes a lot of money. He’s the controller/comptroller (I’m not sure what that is or even if I’m spelling it right) for an international company. But he’s always broke. Or says he is. He met the wife he has now at work. I don’t know if something was going on while he was married to my Mom or not. She left her husband around the same time my Dad left my Mom, and it seemed like he was with her pretty fast, so there probably was. My Mom says there was, and I remember her telling my Aunt she was going to take him to the cleaners. And she did. My Mom got everything. My Dad left with his clothes and his car. He doesn’t pay for me anymore, but he still pays for my sister because she’s in school. When I graduated from college, his wife made the crack, one down, one to go. Her and her icey stares. I always fantasized about giving her the finger. (And I said Zach was crude). My Mom’s lifestyle changed drastically once my Dad left, and she doesn’t like that. She always told us if we’re ever stupid enough to get married, to marry someone rich, because if there’s not enough money, you’ll end up hating him. So this gives you some insight into why I’m a nut. Love and money go hand in hand with my Mom. When my Dad gave us money, it was always a gift. When my Mom gave us money, we had to pay it back. My Mom used to take the child support and spend it on herself. It didn’t matter if she wanted something expensive. She always shopped the bargains for me and my sister. If I wanted a pair of jeans that were $60, she’d say $29.95 was a reasonable price for jeans, so she’d give me the $30 bucks, and then it was up to me to scome up with the difference if I still wanted those jeans. But she’d spend $250 on a gold necklace for herself and never bat an eye. I resented what she did then, but it actually helped me because now I’m a very conservative spender. I always wait for sales and buy all my clothes at the end of each season so I get them cheap. I buy everything on sale. I’m a saver. I started out saving 10% of my check. Now I’m up to 30%. I have a nice savings account. I have a charge card, but I always pay off the balance by end of the month. So, I do think it’s because my Mom was so cheap with us. I told my Dad once that the money he gave her for us she spent on herself. He said that didn’t surprise him. He said there was nothing he could do about that. He also told me once he’d rather live in a shack with someone that wasn’t a bitch than a nice house with someone who was. I didn’t quite get that, because I don’t think wife number 2 is that great. Maybe she treats him differently than she treated me. I never heard them fight, and they are affectionate with each other. I never ever saw my parents hug or kiss. Never. My Dad used to give my sister and I group hugs, and we wanted Mom to get in on them and she never would. My Dad would get down on the floor with us and wrestle around. We’d have so much fun. He’d pin us and we’d try to get away. He’d let us sit on him and he’d pretend he was a horse. Before too long my Mom would walk in and yell at us and break it up. She’d yell at my Dad and tell him grow up. She’d tell him we weren’t a couple of boys. She never wanted the house messed up. It had to be perfect if someone dropped by. They were not a match. My Dad was playful and fun. My Mom, she’s into herself. I love her, but, I would never want to be like her. Everything is me, me, me with her.
Mike. I want to walk down to that catholic church so I don’t have time to talk about him. I think I might’ve blown it. I’ll tell you later.
Love you. And that Cecelia song. I forgot the it was a different name. I just remember being at a party when I was in High School and someone put that on and people were singing it and laughing. That song’s old isn’t it? It’s kind of a gay song, don’t you think? I like you saying the words to me without the music, tho. Thanks.
December 3, 2006 at 6:28 pm
lovesamerica:
You can’t possibly have blown it with Mike already. That’s just not possible.
December 4, 2006 at 12:07 am
Big Jake, I chickened out calling my Dad. If he’s not there I don’t want to leave a message. He’d probably think something was wrong. If he is there it might be a bad time. I think I’ll write a letter. Then I can edit it or throw it away if I change my mind. I’m nervous about it. My Dad isn’t the same Dad he was when he was with us. He moved on.
Mike. I was very upset Thursday about being so mean to you. Mike called me at work and he could tell something was wrong but all I told him was that I got mad at someone and said some awful things and I felt terrible about it. He doesn’t know about you. I told him this person sent me an email just to make me happy and make things right again, but they sent it from their work computer and if they got caught, they could lose their job. I told him this man is older, like my Dad, and he has kids in college, and a heart problem and if he loses his job it would hurt his whole family and it would be my fault. I told him it was just a sweet guy I knew and I misunderstood something he said and I blew up at him. Thank God he didn’t ask for many details because I can’t fake things very well.
He called again Thursday night. You probably think I’m a big baby, but I was crying over you. I felt so bad. I told him I was a mean person and he would be better off just leaving me alone. He said that was dumb. He said everybody gets mean sometimes and that I was probably making too much out of it. I told him I just wanted to be left alone for a few days. I didn’t want to see him this weekend. He asked me if there was someone else. I said no, I was just down in the dumps and I’ve been on the go a lot lately and I just wanted to stay home and think about things. I told him we’d been seeing a lot of each other in a short time, and we should give it a rest. Then he asked me if he had done something wrong. He thinks I’m upset about the ex-girlfriend and I’m looking for a way out. I told him that wasn’t true that I was just depressed. Then I confessed to him that I had had a depression problem and that I had tried to commit suicide twice when I was in my teens. Then things changed. He got quiet. He asked me if I was on medication and I told him no, I didn’t need it anymore and not to worry that I’m not going to do that. The conversation just kind of hung there, so I told him I wanted to hang up and please just leave me alone for a few days. I haven’t heard from him since. So, he’s gone forever I’m sure. I really liked him a lot and if I think about it too much I’ll cry and I’m sick of crying. It’s okay. No guy wants to get something going with someone with my kind of history. It scares them. I would’ve told him someday so it’s better he finds out before I have too hard of a time forgetting him. It’s probably for the best.
Have a good night and a great day tomorrow. I love you.
December 4, 2006 at 1:48 am
lovesamerica:
What’s the matter with you?!
You don’t think you deserve a shot at happiness?
This is the relationship you have been praying for. Now you have him thinking that he is the reason for you being upset.
And another thing ,you don’t drop that kind of
a bomb on the phone!
When I began dating my wife, she told me that she wanted to tell me something and that if I wanted to stop seeing her after she told me,it would be all right.
She told me that her mother had a breakdown and
suffered from depression all her life. She wanted to tell me to give me the opportunity to leave before the relationship became serious.
My wife has suffered along with her mother up to that time because depression hurts EVERYBODY.
I was in love with my wife even then. There was no way I was going to end the relationship.
If you are aware of it ,you can do something about it. You arn’t on medication. Is that because the doctors determined that you weren’t
clinically depressed?
My older daughter had the same problem you had as a teenager. She was on medication. After puberty , she was able to discontinue the medications . She is getting married this year. She is having a life. How about you?
Give Mike a little credit. He is in the medical field for goodness sakes! He can handle it.
Pick up that phone and call Mike right now!
Come on ,we are all rooting for you!
Maybe you are just scared to commit to a relationship and make the emotional investment
because you think you are going to get hurt.
Pick up that phone and call Mike right now!
December 4, 2006 at 3:41 am
lovesamerica:
I’m sorry , I put your name in the wrong box.
When you call Mike ,tell him that you wanted to tell him everything because you wanted to start the relationship off on the right foot.
If you don’t need medication,it shouldn’t be a problem and you should tell him that.
Love you,
Jake
December 4, 2006 at 11:17 am
Big Jake, I’m not going to call Mike. People can’t make you happy. You can have happy times with them, but you’re responsible for your own happiness. It’s a choice. A state of mind. I’ll know he really cares if he calls me now. I told him to leave me alone for a FEW days. If he thinks otherwise, I guess God has someone else for me, or maybe I’m not supposed to have anyone. There’s lots of single people in the world. I told you before, I’m not good at relationships. They’re work, and they drain me.
I’m not on medication and haven’t been for years. I was on a antidepressant and the doctors felt the medication was part of my problem. They switched me to Prozac. I weened myself off those on my own, without my parents knowing it. I think that turning to Jesus, and reading the Bible healed me on my own. I got better when I got away from my parents. I do like being alone. I don’t want to be forever, but I don’t mind it. It helps me.
I bought a little tree yesterday and decorated my apartment. I like the white lights. I like to sit in the dark, turn on the Christmas lights, drink tea, and listen to Christmas music. I’m happy today. I love Christmas.
Angel was right. I love you the best. Better than anyone.
December 4, 2006 at 2:29 pm
lovesamerica:
you wrote:
I’ll know he really cares if he calls me now. I told him to leave me alone for a FEW days. If he thinks otherwise, I guess God has someone else for me, or maybe I’m not supposed to have anyone. There’s lots of single people in the world. I told you before, I’m not good at relationships. They’re work, and they drain me.
Your intelligence is a perfect match for your beauty and your faith. You are right. You will know if he really cares if he calls you .
But don’t say that “I’m not supposed to have anyone. There’s lots of single people in the world.” Why do you feel that way?
When I was dating my wife, we were at a
McDonalds having lunch. I got in line to order the food while she got a table for us. This was right after she told me her deep dark secret about her mother.
While I was waiting on line, I glanced back at her siting at the table all alone. I imagined her 30 years older sitting by herself ,watching other people’s kids laughing,playing, other couples laughing and talking and my wife all alone. I vowed that day that it wouldn’t happen . I wouldn’t let it happen.
Amy ,you will make a terrific wife and mother. Everything that happens ,happens for a purpose. It is up to us to grab the opportunities that God sends our way and make the most out of them.
You had what , one week and a holiday weekend with Mike? That was just an introduction. If he doesn’t call you ,CALL HIM.
You take the chance that he may feel that YOU do not want to continue with the relationship. Don’t forget ,he has to feel guilty about his past. Especially with his Catholic upbringing. Maybe he feels that HE dosent deserve to have a loving relationship or to be able to raise a family because thats what HE deserves. Now you dumped your hurt on him . He wasn’t responsible for that, but I submit that it is on his mind ,he blames himself for that, too.
I honestly feel you should call him. Why don’t you ask him to go to Mass with you this Sunday if he doesn’t call you today?
Another thing. To settle any question he may have about your explanation as to why you were crying, why don’t you let him view this website? Our whole experience here is extraordinary to say the least. I would say it would be reasonable for Mike to doubt what you told him, why you were so upset. I’m telling you ,he thinks he’s to blame.
Whatever you decide ,I love you and I want you to be happy.You really have stolen my heart.
My wish for you is that you ” sit in the dark, turn on the Christmas lights, drink tea, and listen to Christmas music” with Mike sitting with his arm around you.
December 4, 2006 at 4:13 pm
Why Jake, you’ve never let us see your romantic side before. I am looking forward to sitting in front of my tree with Mike. The whole thought of it makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.
He called. I don’t want to sound too confident, but I just had a feeling he would. He’s taking me out to dinner. He wants to talk. He told me he didn’t want to lose me. (Why does he think he even HAS me?) Can you believe it?
I’m very busy today, but I’ll give you the scoop later on.
You know, my prayers will be answered if Mike turns out to be just half the man you are.
Love ya.
December 4, 2006 at 5:36 pm
Big Jake, you suggested sharing this website with Mike. I could never let Mike view this. It’s too personal. What if he decided to start from the beginning and read everything?? I’m afraid Mike would think I was weird.
I wouldn’t let anyone I personally know read this. Some of the girls in the office played around with me when we were all goo-goo over Zach. I NEVER let them see where this was because I wouldn’t want them knowing any of my true thoughts. Don’t remember all the flirting we did with Zach??? I wouldn’t want Mike to read that.
I’m very happy about seeing him tonight. I got butterflies talking to him today. He was so sweet. He’s got a nice voice. I think things will be okay.
The only thing sad about this website, is that I can never touch you. And someday we will lose contact. When that happens, just know, I’ll never ever forget you. Maybe when we all get to Heaven God will reveal us to each other.
December 5, 2006 at 12:21 am
lovesamerica:
I am so happy you are goung out to dinner with
Mike.
You wrote :
He wants to talk. He told me he didn’t want to lose me. (Why does he think he even HAS me?) Can you believe it?
Yes ,I can believe it. Apparently you have stolen HIS heart too!
Have fun tonight!
Love,
Jake
December 5, 2006 at 12:30 am
Hellooooooooo…….
Where is everybody?!!
DJ,ZACH,ANGEL,AMERICANWOMAN,RED DAWN?
We know where lovesamerica is!!!
December 5, 2006 at 3:14 am
Hellooooo. I’m still here. Christmas always makes me feel warm and fuzzy. I love the white lights as well. And lovesamerica, Jake’s right. Sitting in front of your tree, in the dark, sipping tea (or wine), with Mike’s arm around, just completes the picture. Love gives life meaning.
Take care all of you. Enjoy this beautiful season.
December 5, 2006 at 11:34 am
Good Morning! I was up way past my bedtime. Mike took me to Arby’s. I know he doesn’t have a lot of disposable income, so when he picked me up I told him I loved Arby’s sandwiches and was in the mood for one. Big Jake, you’d be proud of me. I only ate half of that huge sandwich (turkey & swiss on wheat) and I had a diet pop. I’m taking the other half to work today for lunch.
Afte we ate, we walked around a shopping center. Then we stopped at a little place for a cappachino. (Did I spell that right? It doesn’t look right.) We talked in there for over an hour. Then he brought me home. I showed him my apartment. I do have a cute little place. He likes it. He said I have it fixed up nice. He said he could tell no guy lives here. I like the cape cod look, so I have frilly curtains, lots of lace and ruffles all over. Very girly. Definitely not a bachelor pad. He liked my tree. I hesitated turning the lights off because I thought he might get the wrong idea. But then I told him how I felt and he laughed and told me not to worry. But I wanted him to see how pretty everything looked. I have the white lights all over. We sat (in the dark) and talked for a long time. He’s very much a gentlemen. I did tell him about my past and he was so gentle and understanding about it. One incident is very hard for me to talk about and I get emotional when I remember it, so he just put his arm around me and told me it wasn’t necessary to tell him everything right now. So, I didn’t want to ruin what so far was a perfect evening so we talked about other things. He does something I really like. If we’re walking, sitting, or riding in the car, sometimes he reaches down and picks up my hand and kisses the back of it. No one has ever done that before and I really like it. It makes me feel special. It’s sweet. He only kissed me goodnight. He didn’t try to make out with me. I’m glad. I want it to be like it is. I feel comfortable with him because he isn’t rushing me. He’s a honey. I’m falling and I’m little scared about it.
Mike did tell me he can’t see me everyday because he’s got so much studying to do, but he said he DID want to talk to me everyday and we’d always see each other on the weekends if I wanted to. (Duh, like I don’t want to.)
Need to get ready for work. Love you all. A special hug for you, Jake.
December 5, 2006 at 1:10 pm
lovesamerica:
I told you you have stolen his heart! He realizes you are someone special. I think the handkissing is a southern thing. That’s why you have never seen it before. Reminds me of “Gone With the Wind”.
I’m glad you had your talk with Mike. He sees how special you are . He is aware of your feelings . I think he really cares for you.
I am so happy for you!
Did you start the letter to your father? You can incorporate it into a Christmas card.
Have a great day!
Love,
Jake
December 5, 2006 at 3:52 pm
Big Jake, I just got another rose!! This one is white. It’s so beautiful. He wrote on the card, “I will never hurt you” Love, Mike. Is he awesome or what!!!!????
The girls in the office are wondering what’s going on.
You Northern guys should try the hand kissing thing. I love it. I think it’s so romantic. Don’t think I’m weird. I’ve just never been treated this way.
Talk to you later.
December 5, 2006 at 5:11 pm
Hi. I haven’t left the forum yet. I’ve just been busy. Nice to see lovesamerica lovesmike. He sounds like a nice guy and I’m glad for you. These compliments you’re giving me ,lovesamerica, are going to my head. Firey, crude. Don’t quite understand why you and your friends were going goo goo over me with those kinds of qualities. And now it’s over. How can I go on? This handkissing thing. I’m going to try that on Amy and see what her reaction is. We guys need all the help we can get keeping you happy, so telling us things like that is appreciated.
Jake, how’s it going buddy? I’m waiting to see if the response on your post to me is signed Love, Jake. I don’t want to be left out of these warm and fuzzy feelings everyone has. I like warm and fuzzy. I’m loveable, don’t you think?
Not much going on. I’ll check in later.
December 6, 2006 at 3:09 am
ZACH:
I tried the hand kissing thing on my wife tonight when I got home. She thought I was trying to bite her. She then told me “Dinner is on the stove!”
Love,
JAKE
oh Yeah . showdown next week Jets-Bills.
Bills still have a mathamatical chance to finish 9-7 and get a wild card slot if they sweep their remaining games.
Did I make you feel all warm and fuzzy?!!!!
December 6, 2006 at 4:56 am
lovesamerica:
you wrote:
You Northern guys should try the hand kissing thing. I love it. I think it’s so romantic.
And I respond:
Well fiddlydee, you Southern Belles shaw do have your menfolk all attentive like, now don’tcha?
I’m so glad to hear the happiness in your postings. It’s going to be a beautiful Christmas season for you. Enjoy!!
Love,
Jake
December 6, 2006 at 5:10 am
Zach;
How did Amy like the Falls?
December 6, 2006 at 11:55 am
Big Jake, you are tooo funny. You should tell your wife she just tastes good!
Let me clarify the handkiss. Mike doesn’t do it dorky. It’s not like Gone with the wind when the ladies just hold their hands up in the air and the guy takes it and kisses it. Mike and I will be holding hands, and then we’ll be talking or just sitting there and then he just lifts up my hand with his and he kisses it. It’s really very nice the way he does it. Maybe not all women would like that. I just know I do. And I don’t want him to ever stop doing it. He doesn’t do it like you’re thinking he does.
Zach, I don’t think you understand my compliments. I guess they do sound a little half-hearted but they arn’t meant to be. It just comes from months of reading things you post and how I’ve sized you all up. I don’t know who said it on here once, I think maybe it was DJ, but he wrote something like a man wants his woman to be a lady in public and a slut in the bedroom. Woman don’t say stuff that way, but I’ll try to put it in terms you men would understand. The perfect man:
Zach, you would be raw sex. The tear your clothes off type guy. After sex with you we’d think about it for days. We’d know we had sex. It’s the hot, passionate kind we fantasize about.
Jake, you’re gentle, soothing, verbal. Sex would be more lovemaking with you. It’s the kind we dream about and hope we have forever. It’s the best.
DJ, you’re fun, playful, flirtatious. It wouldn’t be too serious, but it would be fun. We would always remember it with a smile. Not a laugh, a smile.
Put all three of you together, and we’ve got the perfect man. So, a smart man knows how to decipher his woman’s moods, and then be what we want at the time. Zach, Big Jake, or DJ. Because each of you is really all three but just more of one than the other.
Does that make sense? I know what I mean and I’ve watched a lot of movies and read a lot of romance novels, so I’m pretty sure I think I know what it’s all about. I could be wrong, because I don’t have any experience in that field. But I don’t think experience makes you good at it. With women, I think sex is more a mind thing than a physical thing. If the mind is right, then the physical will be good. If that’s not true, women wouldn’t be complaining about it all the time and trying to get out of it with their husbands. I hear a lot at work. I heard a lot from my Mom and my Aunt. To me, you have to approach it with the right mindset, attitude, and then everything will be spontanious and fall into place. Men and woman ruin it for each other because they don’t really find out what the other one wants, expects, or needs. It boils down to communication. When I get married, I want us to treat each other with respect and trust. I want to be devoted to my husband, and if he stays a gentlemen and pampers me, and stays “dating” me, I’ll be his “slut”…I really hate that word but that’s how it was described it. So Zach, my half-hearted compliments come from what I’ve gathered from your personna. Every woman wants her man to be a “Zach” at least ONCE in her life. I mean really. The hot love scenes in the movies…those are Zach’s. On the other hand, I may be totally wrong, and you could be a dud. 🙂
I love you all. Have a great day!
December 6, 2006 at 1:40 pm
lovesamerica:
WOW! That has to be the best post anyone has ever posted to this board! You nailed it .
In my college days,one of my courses was Marriage and the Family. You could have been reading out of the text.
You are right . You have described the 3 male proto-types. The perfect “man” is the right combination of all three. Unfortunately ,as it usually turns out ,those are the stages of male sexuality as men grow older.
I was “Zach”when I first got married. I don’t think my wife had any complaints. If I acted that way now,my wife would have me committed or I would have another heart attack! Don’t forget ,we are 27 years older now. Age moderates
or should I say refines raw passion. Add a dose of humor to the mix and you have middle age lovemaking. Oh,I forgot, we have to keep it down because we don’t want the kids to hear us!
That wild Zach behavior with all the tearing off of clothing and loud passionate ..whatever would’t happen. Enjoy it now Zach. Look forward to it Amelia Louise! (I really do like that name!) DJ knows what I mean.
Love you guys,
Jake
December 6, 2006 at 1:48 pm
lovesamerica:
Remember we talked about you being a prize ?
That post illustrates it metter than anything I could ever say. That is why any real man would love to have a woman who saved her first time just for him. I hope you really understand where I am coming from now. That was perfect.
Mike is a very lucky man.
Have a great day!
December 6, 2006 at 3:56 pm
lovesamerica,
I’m speechless.
I also think I’m marrying the wrong Amy.
Jake, I’ll answer #840 after I take a cold shower.
December 6, 2006 at 5:31 pm
Big Jake & Zach, I’m really glad you don’t think bad of me. After I submitted that this morning I got to thinking about it and thought it might be tasteless or out of line. Jake, you’re post afterwards made me feel good. So, you think I have it right? Coming from you, that means something because you’re smart. When I was in High School, and even here at work, peer pressure, some people try to make you feel like something is wrong with you because you’re waiting for marriage. I got/get comments like “if you don’t get some experience your husband will cheat on you”, or “you won’t know how to please a man.” I think that’s total crap. I like to kiss, I like to be held. I’m sure if I was in love that would motivate me to whatever it took to please my husband. Most of these women have “miles” of experience and they don’t seem too fulfilled. Some of their husbands even cheat on them, so that tells me a lot about how valid the “get some experience” comment is. Personally, to be blunt, (you know me) I think I’ll be great at it. Because it will be new, it will be right in God’s eyes, and I will know I’m in love and I think he’s perfect for me or I won’t be doing it.
Jake, you said you and your wife waited. Sounds to me that once you were married no one had to do much coaching to get things moving. (Pardon the pun, hahaha.) I’m in a silly mood today. I guess this would be a DJ day…
I Love ya. (I love you, too, Zach. Just the way you are. We women need you Zach’s to keep us inpsired.)
December 7, 2006 at 4:46 am
lovesamerica:
Why do you think Mike sees you as special?
Why was he concerned that he thought he might have lost you?
Roses? Phone calls? It has only been one week!
It is because you are “fresh out of the box.”
You have an aura of innocence,a certain vulnerability that men find irresistible. A man want to protect “his woman”.That goes back to a time before women’s Lib. It goes back to the days of the cavemen.
You are spunky yet vulnerable, intelligent yet innocent. You have a great personality,are family oriented,you know your own mind. You are very engaging with a passion just below the surface. Wholesome ,religious I could go on and on. Mike knows this. He’s never letting you go!
You wrote:
Jake, you said you and your wife waited. Sounds to me that once you were married no one had to do much coaching to get things moving. (Pardon the pun, hahaha.)
You are right. Did you ever hear the song “Workin’ on the Night Moves”.? That’s one of the fun things newly weds do! You’ll find out.
Love ,
Jake
Your Dad, the letter or Christmas Card?
December 7, 2006 at 4:49 am
zach:
RE #844 GEEEEZE, THAT’S A LONG COLD SHOWER!!!
December 7, 2006 at 11:26 am
Big Jake, the things you say to me make me happy. I hope you’re right about Mike. I haven’t seen him since Monday but he calls me a couple times during the day and everynight. He knows I go to bed between 10:00-11:00 and he always calls again to say goodnight. I like his voice. This might sound dumb, but I think one of the reasons I like the handkissing so much is because he’s got big hands. He’s a weight lifter, too, and he’s meaty. Solid. His hair is soft and thick. I like to touch it. He was shocked when he saw some pictures of me when my hair was so long. He said he never knew anyone with hair that long other than some country singer named Crystal and he always thought that hers was fake. He met me the day I cut it. It’s still long, but it’s nothing like it was. He told me he likes long hair so I’m not going to cut it again. Most men seem to like long hair. Why is that? Come to think of it, I haven’t had a headache since I cut my hair.
I have started a letter to my Dad. Just a draft on the computer. I keep editing it. When it’s right and I’m satisfied with it, I’m going to hand write it. I don’t want to send him a typed letter. I want to hand write it and I don’t care how long it is. Typing it doesn’t seem personal enough to me. I was looking at cards trying to pick one out that fits. I have a picture of Dad and me in a big hug that Mom took when I was about 5. I’ve always loved that picture and I keep it in a little frame on my dresser. I’m going to send it to him. I’m also going to send the letter to his work address. I’m going to call him first to let him know it’s coming. When I read some of the memories and my feelings in the letter, my throat gets very tight. I have to walk away from doing it. It’s a hard letter to write. I want him to remember when he was my Daddy. I haven’t called him that in years, but he’ll always be my Daddy in my heart. He was my hero when I was a little girl. Nobody was like my Daddy. Part of me died inside when he left.
And Zach, you better get out of that shower before you shrivel up into a prune! I guess what I wrote really got you going.
Got to get ready for work. Hugs for everyone. (Big squeeze for Big Jake)
December 7, 2006 at 2:02 pm
lovesamerica:
The country singer with long hair is Crystal Gayle. I like long hair on a pretty woman. My wife had beautiful ,long, full bodied, wavy dark brown hair. As you get older your hair loses some of the luster and body.I think thats why she cut it. My hair was jet black and wavy . Now its graying and thinning. Enjoy it while you can! Funny though, when I look at my wife, I see the 17 year old girl I fell in love with. She really hasn’t changed in my eyes.
I think we are the most critical of ourselves. I still want to surprise her for Christmas with a buff body. I want to go away with her for a weekend and try out my “Zach” impersonation.
Should be good for a couple of laughs! (and a new wardrobe for her!).
On your letter to your Dad-
you wrote:
I want him to remember when he was my Daddy. I haven’t called him that in years, but he’ll always be my Daddy in my heart. He was my hero when I was a little girl. Nobody was like my Daddy. Part of me died inside when he left.
You will always be Daddy’s little girl. Remember what I wrote about Resurection in post 528?
You are giving him a chance at resurection. We all want that chance. A second chance to right a wrong done to someone,a second chance at love, a second chance to be a good father.
Let him know that you still are his little girl. I guarantee you that your letter will be tear stained the next time you see it.
Tell him about Mike .Tell him that when the day arrives ,you want him to walk you down the aisle. You are a heart stealer. He was the first one whose heart you have stolen. Remind him.
And part of you didn’t die. You bit the poisoned apple and that part of you fell into a trance. Mike is the prince who kissed you and broke the spell. Go get your Daddy back little girl.
MAKE IT HAPPEN!
Love,
Jake
December 7, 2006 at 2:14 pm
lovesamerica:
regarding the length of your hair – I think the perfect length is just below the shoulders . If your hair was so long that it gave you headaches ,it was too long.
Have a great day!
December 7, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Oh Jake, you are such a romantic. I just love you. I want my husband to feel that way about me 27 years later. Your wife sure knew how to pick a good man. Take her a way. She’ll be thrilled. And please do the Zach impersonation.
She’ll be dazed and feel like a newlywed all over again. It will make her feel loved and beautiful and desireable….that’s all we really want.
I am going to tell my Dad about Mike. I don’t know if Mike and I will get married. It’s too early. He could dump me down the road. I don’t want to get my hopes up just yet. He sure is nice, tho. And cute. I never thought a guy like that would be interested in me. One of my snotty, thinks she’s great girlfriend’s, jokingly asked me how I ever got him. I told her probably because he got sick of women like you. I said it jokingly, but I meant it. She’s one of those types you have to watch. For some reason, I think she’s jealous. Only because she’s so pretty, men fall over her and she always gets what she wants.
Jake, I hope I don’t get hurt with all this stuff. My Dad and Mike. I don’t want to get hurt. If I do this with my Dad, and he doesn’t respond, it will be awful. I already have some things written that tell him how I saw him as a little girl. I told him I loved him more than anything. I’ve also apologized for everything I’ve said in the past, that I was just hurt and confused then. (I’m still hurt and confused but I want to start over.) I hope he wants to start over. I hope this isn’t a mistake.
Mike said he’d like to see me for a little while tonight. We both like cappachino’s, so we’re going out for one. I can’t wait.
Love ya.
December 7, 2006 at 3:56 pm
lovesamerica:
Trust your heart. Put your faith in Jesus.
Nobody ever said there is no chance you will ever be hurt. That’s life. We have to live it. In the end if we do all that we can do ,miracles can happen. If we don’t take the chance, then we are just empty shells.
Damn, if your Dad doesn’t just melt from that letter , i don’t know what we can do,short of the three of us (Me,Zach&DJ, your “Three Godfathers”) physically paying him a visit.
I think that won’t be necessary.
Enjoy your cappuchino with Mike. By the way,
what part of Italy are his people from?
I thought he had to study. This boy’s got it bad! Reminds me of myself way back when.
HAVE FUN!
Jake
December 7, 2006 at 5:19 pm
Sorry I didn’t get back to you. I kept having to take showers because I’d re-read #840 and things would happen. That was some post. Wow. lovesamerica, I have to tell you, I’m jealous of Mike. He’s getting some little chickadee. I under estimated you because you’re young. You’ve summed us up darn well. I never thought of myself as a sex maniac. I just know, well, I like, what I like. I’ll try not to be so crude. You have to remember, I’m around men all day, and we have a tendency to talk guy talk.
Jake, you said you were a “Zach” when you first got married. Sorry bud, I don’t think so. After waiting all that time you weren’t a “Zach”, you were a Super-Zach. All those years of stored up self-controlled frustration. You must’ve been one huge explosion. Wow.
Amy had a great time at the Falls. We both did. She’s my sweetheart. Very loving. It was a nice time to be alone with her. She’s different than she was. Now that all the truth is out she’s more relaxed and happy.
I did try the handkiss. She liked it. She had to work late shift at the hospital. I brought her up some pizza. Before I left I took her hand and kissed it, and winked at her. She just said, Oh Zach, I love you. So, I guess I’ll be a handkisser from now on. It’s better than being an asskisser. (There’s that crudeness coming out of me again)
Later.
Or should I say,
Love,
Zach
December 8, 2006 at 11:26 am
Big Jake, I miss you. When I have my coffee in the morning I get on here and you have almost always been here. Sleeping late?
Zach, if I had ever known you would’ve given me the time of day I would’ve been on cloud 9. Unfortunately, here we are, just computer friends. You’re in love with someone else and I think I’m going to be. You must be some kind of man because you just ooze with sex appeal. Even on a computer. You even had to add the sexy wink with your handkiss. I wish I could kiss you just once. And I mean a “Zach” kiss.
Jake, Mike and I had our cappachino’s. I only saw him for a couple of hours last night. He said the way I looked reminded him of the girl who played Mel Gibson’s wife in Braveheart. Maybe not everyone would think that, but that might give you an idea of what I look like. My hair is the same color and style and about as long as hers. But, my eyes are green. I can’t remember if hers were or not. I think you sound distinguished looking. I bet you’re a classy guy. Anyway, Mike asked me if he could consider me his girl. I’m so happy. I asked him to define for me what being his girl meant. He said he didn’t want me to see anyone else, and he wanted to know right away if someone started moving in on me. I have a big smile on my face just writing that. He keeps getting cuter and cuter to me. I told him I’d think about it. He gave me a funny look, and then I laughed and said sure, but it goes both ways. So, we have a pact now. We’re offically a couple. Yeah!!! I can’t believe this is happening to me.
I’m mailing my Dad’s letter when I get to work. I worked on it last night. Hand wrote it all out and added the picture I told you about. I put it in a mushy Hallmark “to my Father from your daughter at Christmas” card. I was up passed midnight. I re-read it and cried over it. I sealed it up and prayed over it. I asked God to please heal the relationship and to open my Dad’s heart. To have him remember the way we were. If this doesn’t work, I will never do it again. I’m saving my copy on the computer. I hope you were right and it works. This letter took a lot out of me. I’m scared to send it, but I want to.
Love you guys. Have a great day.
December 8, 2006 at 1:47 pm
lovesamerica:
Good Morning ,Green Eyes. I read your post and yes I guess I overslept a little this morning.
I usually get up around 6am ,go down to the computer ,check the site and answer last nights postings. Then I drive my wife to work and hit the gym for an hour,come home, showerand get ready for work. Ran a little late today,sorry about that.
I checked braveheart on the IMDB site
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0112573/
If you are talking about the girl on the cover with Mel Gibson,Sophie Marceau ,you are in the hubba hubba catagory!
I hope ths works. I have posted a site below with an image of Fernando Valunzuela who I’ve been told could pass for my identical twin .
Hopefully ,just click on it and you will see a jiffy-pop card with his picture on it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110063613888#ebayphotohosting
you wrote:
Mike asked me if he could consider me his girl. I’m so happy. I asked him to define for me what being his girl meant. He said he didn’t want me to see anyone else, and he wanted to know right away if someone started moving in on me. I have a big smile on my face just writing that. He keeps getting cuter and cuter to me. I told him I’d think about it. He gave me a funny look, and then I laughed and said sure, but it goes both ways. So, we have a pact now. We’re offically a couple. Yeah!!! I can’t believe this is happening to me.
Well yeah!! How many times do we have to tell you that YOU ARE A PRIZE!!! Well yeah!
Part of your charm is that while you want something soooooo much, you can be so coy as to
tell him ” I told him I’d think about it.”
Well fiddlydee,Miss Scarlet, you had that Southern boy all twisted out of shape with that response,I declare!
I am so glad to hear the happiness in your posting and I hope you can feel the big hug I am sending you through the computer!
Again ,with your fathers letter, I do believe that you are going to melt him down into a blubbering mass of protoplasm. I hope he has your phone number. If one of my daughter’s had sent a letter like that , I WOULD BE AT HER DOOR WITHIN 24 HOURS. Lucky for me we are all in the same household.
Just to let you know, I have been working on my self improvement project and thanks to you ,I have been more demonstrative with my affection.
For example, it started with adding “Love” when I sign off my posts. No,Zach , I’m not turning into a “girlyman”. It sets a mindset for me that my wife and kids have noticed. I kissed my daughter Christina and told her I was proud of her before I left for work yesterday. She smiled at me. A step at a time.
Talk to you later . Have a great day!
Love,
Jake
December 8, 2006 at 5:27 pm
Big Jake, I’m so glad you’re back. You’re like a lifeline to me.
The picture of Mel and that girl…sorry. That’s not the one. I guess you’d have to watch the movie. The girl I remind Mike of is the one Mel married in the beginning of the movie and then the English killed her. The rats. She’s pretty, but she’s plain. The french girl he had a fling with is definitely hubba hubba. I WISH that would’ve been the one I reminded him of.
I clicked on Fernando. He’s cute, Jake! You italians are all nice looking people. Most italian men are just plain sexy. I forgot to ask Mike what part of Italy he was from. I’ll try to remember to ask him.
My Dad has my home, work and cell phone numbers. The letter is in the mail. I’m nervous. When do you think he’ll get it? I really spilled my heart out to him. I think it’s a very emotional letter, but it’s all my emotions. I loved how my Dad was, what we once had. He was so neat. I love my mother and I’m not going to hold it against her, but I do blame her for the break up. She pushed my father away. She always ruined everything. I remember my Dad giving her beautiful jewelry and gifts. She would tell him straight out she didn’t like them. She’d even get mad at him sometimes for buying what he did. I could see it hurt him. It used to hurt my feelings for him. I think he really tried to please her. She was unpleasable. And she still is!! That’s why she can never find anyone dumb enough to marry her. She’s a bitch. The Bible says to honor your mother and your father. But, I have to tell you, my mother is a bitchy woman. A guy would have to be deaf to put up with her. Or a doormat.
I love the name Christina. I wish I had a name like that. She’s lucky she’s got you 24-7. I’m glad you’re being more demonstrative. I don’t think a woman ever gets sick of hearing I love you. Tell me if I’m wrong, but from what I’ve gathered observing men and women, women yearn to hear “I love you”, and men yearn to hear “I’m proud of you”. Not that men don’t like love, but men seem to gain strength when the woman they love lets them know they’re proud of them. I hope I always make Mike feel that way.
I don’t think Zach would ever think you’re a girlyman. I think he looks up to you.
Love you all. Big hug and kiss for Jake.
December 8, 2006 at 8:02 pm
Hey lovesamerica, throw me a big hug and kiss once in awhile.
Jake, c’mon. Girlyman? I don’t think that.
I have feelings, just like you two.
LOVE,
ZACH
December 8, 2006 at 9:05 pm
Zach:
Just got home. We know you have feelings.
Just didn’t want you to think I was turning mushy.
By the way -Bills VS Jets SUNDAY Should be a good game.
Love ,
Jake
December 8, 2006 at 9:13 pm
lovesamerica:
Office Christmas Party tonight!
Came home to pick up my wife so we will be heading out in a little while.
Your father should get the letter in about 2-3 days. Don’t worry. Everything will work out fine.
I did see Braveheart. Unfortunately ,I didn’t find any shots of the wife. I will look again.
Any good plans for the weekend?
Have fun!
Jake
December 9, 2006 at 6:20 am
Zach:
Another good movie to add to your list
“Three Godfathers” starring John Wayne
Three Godfathers, me ,you ,and DJ. Where is DJ,by the way?
Jake
December 9, 2006 at 11:45 am
Jake, I can be a softy. I’m sensitive. I get the impression that I’ve been sized up as some kind of sex fiend. That that is all I think about. Or that that is the primary goal when I’m with a woman. I told you I got choked up when I saw Amy’s back. I can feel other people’s pain. On my job I’ve seen a lot of things. Especially with accidents. Carry those around in your head and you’ll understand why so many firemen and poice officers get messed up. We see things before they’re cleaned up. I’ve had people (children) die in my arms. You (I) need a woman who’s there for you that will love those pictures out of your head. I’m not all sex, sex, sex. I’m normal. I think.
That said, I’m taking Amy out to breakfast and then shopping in Erie, PA. No tax on clothes. Lower tax on everything than NY. We’re shopping for the kids. We’re just making a day out of it. I like being with the kids, but I really like being alone with Amy. I don’t know what kind of perfume she wears, but it drives me crazy. Good crazy. When I think of her I can smell that perfume. See, I’m sensitive.
Bill & Jets. It will be a good game if the Bills stay awake. I told you, I burnt all their stuff last year. I’ve turned in to a major Sabres fan. Went to a Maple Leafs game a few weeks ago. Paid $350 for the tickets off ebay. Took Josh. Awesome game. Sabres lost, but we had a great time. Josh wants a jersey for Christmas. Can’t find one anywhere. I mean ANYWHERE. I’ll watch the Bills tomorrow, but only after I drink a 12-pack. Not really. I wish they’d come back. I love the city of Buffalo. I’d really like to see them win something big.
Good luck lovesamerica with your Dad. I’m sure he crumble. Cassie’s not my daughter, but I look at her like she is. She’s got me wrapped around her little finger. She can get anything out of me. I’m sure things will be fine.
December 9, 2006 at 12:44 pm
Zach:
I know you are a sensitive guy. Hey Bud, you are and will always be a real hero in my book.You also happen to be a legend on this site thanks to our little Amelia Louise!
Who said you were a sex fiend? Remember that
lovesamerica reads alot of romance novels showing the big handsome strapping guy on the cover with the beautiful woman in his arms.
Sometimes the guy is a pirate,sometimes he is a civil war soldier ,or an Indian brave ora cowboy or a sea captain. I’m sure you have seen them in the supermarket.
Kind of funny that all those guys seem to be named Zach in her book! I doubt very much that any of them are named Louie!
In Viet Nam whenever a soldier or a marine would do anything heroic ,his comrades would say he did a “John Wayne”.
Well ,in our cyber-world here , it’s doing a Zach.
By the way ,you can get the Sabres Jersey on EBAY. they have a whole page of them. todler ,youth teenage and adult sizes.
December 9, 2006 at 2:21 pm
I just got out of bed. Slept in. I live for Saturday mornings.
My dear Zach. I don’t know if you’re thick or what. I really wish you’d listen to Jake. He understands. I would think most men would want women to think about them the way I’ve described you. Of course we know you’re sensitive, you dope. When I think of being swept away, you’re the type that does the sweeping. How dumb are you? When I’m ready, I want Mike to be a Zach. If he’s NOT a Zach, I’m going to be pretty darn disappointed. (Quite frankly, he DOES kiss like a Zach, and I LOVE it!) You’re a legend on here. It’s a COMPLIMENT!! Woman want their men to treat them like they’re so desireable it drives them crazy. Throw love and romance into the mix, and you’ve got PASSION. Geeez. I told you I’d like to kiss you just once. Why do you think that is? I can’t believe you’d think I’d fantasize about some fumbling, unromantic, give me what you got guy. Trust me. You want us to think about you the way I do. I’m sure your little Amy wants you to attack her. It gets us going. Don’t be an idiot.
Okay. Jake, how was your Christmas party? Our office party is next Sat. I got in some trouble with that. Remember that little weezily guy I went out with once? Well, I told him I’d go to the Christmas party with him a month or so ago. He brought that up to me last week and I told him I didn’t think he was serious when he asked me and since then I’ve met someone. Boy, that didn’t go over very well. But, I’m going with my Mike. Don’t think bad of me, but, that guy just doesn’t do ANYTHING for me. Well, he does do something. He makes me go ICK inside. That guy is the turnoff character in the romance novels. I get the creeps just thinking about him touching me. UGH!
I called my Dad last night. I told him I wrote him a letter and sent it to his workplace and he should be getting it in a few days. He asked me if everything was alright and if I needed anything. I said, no, that I just needed to resolve some issues I had with him. He sighed, and said, Oh geez. I told him not to worry, that it wasn’t mean. He laughed and said that was a relief. I think he’s going to be very surprized when he reads it because I told him in the letter how much I idolized him. That he was the first man I ever loved. I told him I still do, too. So, I’m anxious to see what he says because we’ve never talked like that. I hope it does what you think it will do. I have a good feeling about it. God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, I think they’re working with this, because I have a peace about it. I think it was right to write that letter, and I think God used you to influence me. Maybe that’s one of the reasons we came across this board. I know I’m grateful for you. All of you have influenced me in some way. You the most. Your name is Louie? Put an S in there and we have Louise. We have a connection, don’t we? You’re my angel, Louie. I’ll always love you.
December 9, 2006 at 2:27 pm
Forgot to tell you. I’m going to Mike’s parents today. We’re going to hang out there, play some board games, cards, etc. with the rest of the family. Eat there, too.
Hopefully, we’ll get a chance to make out in front of the fireplace.
JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!
December 9, 2006 at 6:58 pm
lovesamerica:
Hey Greeneyes,
My wife used to tease me and call me Louie all the time. When we first met ,she thought I was French. I asked her why French? I didn’t where a beret, didn’t have one of those French cigarettes dangling from the corner of my mouth,and while I had a Moustache, it wasn’t one of those thin pencil line jobs ,it was a big Zapata style one. I looked more like the Frito Bandito than that Frenchie cartoon skunk Pepe LePew.
She said it was because I wore a sweater vest
with my button down shirt. HUH?? Go figure.
In her romantic view ,she needed to feel there was something different and exotic about me.
Sweater vest? French? What ever works for her
is fine with me.
As far as the name “Louie”, I was a “Louie” growing up. I was a “Louie” to my wife when I was younger. I am a little too old to be called “Louie” at 52 especially with a 14 year old “Louie” in the same house. It got too confusing . My wife calls me Louis and my son Louie. My Grandfather was Luigi, and I even had an Aunt Louise! So ,yes ,there is a connection!
Regarding the guy in your office, forget about it! You went out with the guy once a month ago . You do not have a relationship with him and he gave you the creeps. I am sure you told him in a nice way that you were seeing someone.
BRING MIKE TO THE PARTY. It should resolve any problems. Why should anyone “think bad of you?”
My Office party was nice . It was at an Italian restaurant in Manhattan. It was for the firm where I am a part time tax manager. They are like family. It was a little melancholy as the firm’s largest client went bankrupt and the Senior partner spoke about how we will struggle through, hopefully have a sucessful 2007 and be together again at next years party.
Regarding your Dad -I am glad you called him to be on the lookout for the letter.I ALSO HAVE A GOOD FEELING ABOUT IT AND i also feel it is God working through our interactions and making it happen.
Oh ,and by the way, regarding making out with Mike in front of the fireplace, you are just kidding??????? You are a couple now! You have a pact!!! You are his girl!!!! Why can’t you “make out” in front of the fireplace???
Don’t over do it , don’t compromise your virtue and his honor… but live ,love and enjoy each other. You can kiss in front of the fireplace!!!
Have fun!
Jake
December 9, 2006 at 11:21 pm
Zach:
RE #853
You wrote:
Jake, you said you were a “Zach” when you first got married. Sorry bud, I don’t think so. After waiting all that time you weren’t a “Zach”, you were a Super-Zach. All those years of stored up self-controlled frustration. You must’ve been one huge explosion. Wow.
Well , one rainy Saturday right after we came back from our honeymoon… All I can say is
it would have made you proud…
Memorable Quotes from
The Quiet Man (1952)
Michaleen Flynn: [on seeing the broken bed] Impetuous! Homeric!
December 10, 2006 at 2:21 am
Food for thought, food for thought…..
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness—these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles.”
– George Washington
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“God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
–Thomas Jefferson
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“[I]t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure, than they have it now, they may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty.”
– John Adams
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“…The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that ‘except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.’ ”
– Benjamin Franklin
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“Were my soul trembling on the wing of eternity, were this hand freezing to death, were my voice choking with the last struggle, I would still, with the last gasp of that voice, implore you to remember the truth: God has given America to be free.”
– Patrick Henry
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“And whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions, in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon; and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.”
– Abraham Lincoln
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“Let us look forward to the time when we can take the flag of our country and nail it below the Cross, and there let it wave as it waved in the olden times, and let us gather around it and inscribed for our motto: ‘Liberty and Union, one and inseparable, now and forever,’ and exclaim, ‘Christ first, our country next!’ ”
– Andrew Johnson
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“We cannot read the history of our rise and development as a nation, without reckoning with the place the Bible has occupied in shaping the advances of the Republic. Where we have been the truest and most consistent in obeying its precepts, we have attained the greatest measure of contentment and prosperity.”
– Franklin Roosevelt
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“Without God, there is no virtue, because there’s no prompting of the conscience. Without God, we’re mired in the material, that flat world that tells us only what the senses perceive. Without God, there is a coarsening of the society. And without God, democracy will not and cannot long endure. If we ever forget that we’re one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under.”
– Ronald Reagan
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December 10, 2006 at 2:33 am
http://www.interviewwithgod.com/forgiven/index.htm
December 10, 2006 at 12:15 pm
Lovesamerica, #863. Point taken. I get it. I guess I just didn’t want you to think I didn’t have a heart.
By the way, I asked Amy what the perfume was she wore. She said it’s not perfume. It’s lotion. Bath & Body Exotic Coconut. I got that out of her so I can get it for her for Christmas. When I picked her up yesterday, after she got in, I got a big wiff of it. I put the gear in park and just grabbed her and gave her a “Zach”. Actually, I gave her a few Zachs. I told her she was turning me on bad. You should wear that around Mike. If he’s anything like me, you’ll get the same results. That stuff gets me going.
Jake #866. I’m not only proud of you, I admire you. See, we men are all alike. Once we get a taste of it, “we’re screwed”.
December 10, 2006 at 1:40 pm
Big Jake, I had a really nice time at Mike’s. His family are nice. His Mom and sisters were making hard candy, so they invited me in on it. It was a lot of fun. You have to work fast. They gave me a big bag to bring home. I like the cinnamon the best. We made candy cane cookies, too. They’re fun. I need more practice at those. They make dough, and they split it in batches and color one red, one green, and leave the other plain. They roll them in ropes and then twist the different colors together and then shape them like candy canes. There’s looked nice. Mine looked terrible. They were laughing at me, but in a nice way. They still tasted good, they just were ugly. I had so much fun. They let me take my ugly cookies home, too. His Mom told me she was glad Mike met me. She also told she thinks I’m here to stay. I thought that was nice. Their house is nestled in the woods, so Mike and I went for a walk after all the baking. It was cold but nice out. We even raced each other. Walking on that tread mill kept me from getting winded. He’s faster but I kept up. He knows about the letter I sent my Dad. He didn’t say so, but I think he wants to read it because I told him I told my Dad about him. I’m not ready to let him read it yet. Maybe someday. When we got back to the house his Mom had made a big pot of soup and baked bread. It was sooooo good. Then we helped her clean up and went downstairs and played cards. It was a nice day and night. I got home around 11:00. He wouldn’t come in this time. For some reason he hesitates. Maybe he’s afraid of me. He’s picking me up and I’m going to church with him this morning. I’ve been thinking about your wife. Maybe if Mike and I start talking serious…maybe I’ll have him promise me to wait like your wife made you. If he would do that, maybe 27 years later he would always look at me the way you look at your wife now. And maybe we’d have some of those rainy Saturday nights that make Zach proud??!!!
Zach, the Exotic coconut sounds more like EROTIC coconut. I’ll take your word for it. I’m getting some asap.
Love you guys.
P.S. Jake, I had a few nice moments in front of that fireplace. He definitely knows what he’s doing.
December 10, 2006 at 2:58 pm
Hello Everyone! I would ordinarily be going to church this morning but I’m home nursing a cold. I have so much to do preparing for the holidays. All I want to do is sleep.
After reading several of the previous posts, I’d like to make a comment. My husband is 51. I’m 53. We’re not old farts. We’re very active. Lovesamerica, I’m living proof that passion DOES last. My husband was a gift from God. He’s my best friend, my lover. He’s everything I’ve ever wanted. We’ve been married 20 years, and the sparks still fly. He’s a Zach. Maybe not as often, but he still is. He’s the best thing that ever happened to me.
Take Zach’s advice. Get the Exotic coconut. I’m a bath and body person. I probably support that store. One year for Christmas my husband filled a basket with tons of different lotions, shower gels and sprays. It was my favorite gift. The Exotic Coconut just came out a few months ago. Along with Sensual Amber. They’re both very nice, but my husband loves the coconut, and when I wear it to work, that’s the one I always get compliments on.
You’ll be glad you bought it.
God Bless.
December 10, 2006 at 3:08 pm
lovesamerica:
I’m so glad you had such a nice day at Mike’s house. I agree with Mike’s mother ,you are here to stay. You are going through a bonding phase with the women in his life and they are all giving you the thumbs up! You said that Mike was family oriented. He wants to see how you fit in and if you feel comfortable as a part of the family. Apparently you feel right at home
with them as they do with you.
Mike didn’t want to come in because he doesn’t want to take the chance of blowing it this time.
He doesn’t trust himself to be alone with you for apparent reasons.
As the relationship progresses, have that talk with Mike and promise each other that you will wait until your wedding day. It will take the pressure off both of you.
Oh yeah, Easy on the “Erotic coconut” lotion!
Have a great day!
Love ,
Jake
December 10, 2006 at 3:31 pm
Angel:
Sorry to hear you have a cold. Me too.
Guess its that time of year.
I don’t feel very “Zach” today because of it.
Thank you for the great gift idea about the basket of lotions, gels and sprays. I have been at my wits end as to what to get my wife in that department.
Us “older folks” still can get “sparky” so to speak.
Have a great day!
Jake
December 10, 2006 at 3:32 pm
Zach,
Any luck with the Sabres jersey for Josh?
December 11, 2006 at 2:50 am
All,
I’m back from helping keep the world safe for democracy! 😉
Wow! What an interesting two weeks. Re: 841: Ouch! See! That’s been the story of my life! Fun, spontaneous, flirty, but no “happy ending.” I’m a mix of Big Jake and Zach. Being a knight in (dull) armor, one doesn’t always see all of me. I have a saying that no matter how you hold an object, you can never see all of it. That includes standing in front of a mirror. OK, you say our “tryst” would be a “short fling.” Nope. I don’t take test drives. I want sparks that will ignite a flame that will burn long and steady. It takes a while for me to warm up to someone and it consists of lots of dialog. I don’t care how “pretty the staircase” is. If a gal hasn’t got a good head on her shoulders, forget it.
Sorry, I’ll sheath the claws.
Angel: Nice to hear from you. I had the crud while at my duty station last week. Nasty little bugger this year, eh?
Big Jake: Sorry to hear you’ve been stressing over things. I hope you find the balance between work and home life.
Amy: Don’t let Mike’s past interfere with the chance to build a future together.
Zach: Glad to hear things are going fine with you and Amy, BUT… DO NOT play head games with her. If you think it’s time for a ring, go pick one out. If you think it’s not, be honest with her. (Yoda voice) “To the dark side power trips lead you they will.” (Obi-Wan voice) “Zach! Let go! Follow your instincts!” (Paula’s voice) “DJ! Knock it off and come to bed!”
OK, gotta go! I’ll check back tomorrow. Until then, “May the Schwartz be with you!”
Oh, great! Spaceballs! There goes the neighborhood!
December 11, 2006 at 11:37 am
DJ, I thought you left us forever!! I’ve missed you! The ouch, I’m sorry. I love guys like you. I told you before, you’d be a blast to go out with. I’d never forget you. I like to get silly and crack jokes. I could be flirty with you and you’d play with it and we’d have have fun. Flirty with Zach and things could get dangerous. Fliry with Jake, and you get married. I’m like you, too, because I like a good mind. Good converstaion. And when things get serious and dpressing, someone like you lightens everything up and makes us laugh at the world and ourselves. Like I said, all 3 of you have all 3 sides, just one in particular fits your personalities. I could be wrong. But, I’ll say this, I think Paula is lucky. I think Carmen is lucky. On most nights, Amy is proably the luckiest!! Just kidding!! See, that’s my kidding side. I’m probably the female you! I think you’re all fantastic men. I’d be happy with any one of you.
Jake, I didn’t see much of Mike yesterday. After church we went to a little place and ate a small lunch. He brought me home and then he had to go STUDY. I understand. He wants to do well and he told me he’s stressing because he has some major finals and evaluations coming up.
I’ve been talking with that priest down the road from me. I went for a walk and did a little shopping yesterday. I stopped in the church because I like being in there. It’s decorated nice and it smells good. I really like this preist. He’s so loveable and he has the nicest eyes. He’s sincere. I like the way he talks about God. We’re friends now. I told him about my letter and some of the things I put in it. He said that’s the most precious gift my father will get this Christmas. I got all teary and I asked him if I could hug him and he said of course. (When I hugged him, I kinda pretended it was you!) I’m still nervous about that letter. I hope he doesn’t let his wife read it. She’s cold.
Gotta get ready for work.
Love you all.
December 11, 2006 at 11:51 am
lovesamerica:
you got me all teary! I felt that hug. Felt nice!
About time Mike did some serious studying!
I was premed in college before I washed out and became a “numbers cruncher.” Support Mike in his studies. We need good doctors,dedicated doctors.
This has been a magical Christmas season for you so far. Expect a really nice reply from your Dad.
Have a Great Day!
Love you.
Jake
December 11, 2006 at 3:08 pm
DJ, while we were in Canada, Amy & I went into some jewelry stores just looking around. I didn’t act very interested, but she looked at some rings in the cases and I paid attention to the ones she liked. I bought her ring a couple of days ago in Buffalo. I think she’ll be blown away when she sees it. It’s a carat diamond in a gold band. The wedding band that goes with it wraps around it and it has diamonds in it. It’s a sharp ring. I paid a small fortune for it, but I want her to have it. She and Cassie are spending the night with Josh & I Christmas Eve. We wanted to be together Christmas morning with the kids. I don’t want her to be sure she’s getting it, that’s why I’ve been treating her like it’s not on my mind. I’ve bought her other gifts for Christmas that I’ll give her Christmas day. I haven’t decided yet whether to give it to her Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, or New Years Eve. I was thinking about giving it to her Christmas Day in the evening, after she thinks Christmas is over. I don’t know yet. She’s had a crappy life, and I want this to be special for her so I want to do something that will make her always remember it. I want to be a “Jake” with this. He’s the romantic lovemaker. I always thought I was that, but I guess I’m the one always idling in attack mode. Not with this. This has to be awesome for her. I’m anxious to see the look on her face when she sees it.
Jake, great game yesterday, huh?
Oh, before I forget. Guess who I’m meeting next week? Amy’s father. She asked me to take her down there to see her family before Christmas. She’s got gifts for them and she wants them to meet me. Her father and I. This will be interesting. I feel like I have a score to settle with that jerkoff. I’ll behave. For now.
December 11, 2006 at 4:02 pm
Zach,
Thumbs up on the ring. You are a romantic,
you just happen to be a cover boy too!
Be yourself when you meet Amy’s father. By that I mean be Christian gentleman. That’s how I think of you. You are one of the most unselfish people I have ever had the privilege to know. Control yourself for Amy,Cassie and Josh’s sake.
Buffalo’s got a shot . Need 2 more wins.
The jersey,any luck?
Have a great day!
Jake
December 11, 2006 at 11:04 pm
Jake, thanks. I don’t have the class or brains you and DJ have, but since you two, I’ve been trying to improve.
Amy’s father. I’m not going to do anything that will hurt Josh, Amy, or Cassie. Amy has already told me she won’t be wearing any makeup while we’re there and no jeans, just dresses. I think that’s a bunch of crap, but it means something to her so for now I’ll keep my mouth shut. If her father starts popping off, or acting like a jerk, I’ll handle it the way I think it needs handled to nip it. I’ll try to be a good christian. We might butt heads because I think his idea of a good christian and mine are totally different. I will only be pushed so far. If he says anything to downgrade Amy, or humiliate her, his day of reckoning will arrive. I won’t let him hurt her again. Physically or verbally.
You’re a great friend.
December 12, 2006 at 1:12 am
Zach:
Tread carefully. I say that because I recall my reaction to your discription of Amy’s back. If my anger could flare up by that discription, I could only imagine what you must feel being directly involved.
My question to you is ,why does Amy want to make this visit? It seems to me that while she is hurting because of the past, something inside her is calling her to try a reconciliation. It could be also that she is seeking her father’s approval.This could lead to bitter disappointment.
Maybe you should prepare her for adverse consequences . “Prepare for the worst ,hope for the best” kind of a thing.
Should things become unpleasant, just excuse yourselves and say it is time to leave. No confrontations at this juncture especially in front ofAmy and the kids .
I really feel that her father is unstable.
December 12, 2006 at 2:58 am
OK, folks. This is a banzai posting. Our computer is about to die. I’m typing this in a word doc, then doing a cut’n’paste to the site. If I don’t post for a bit, it’s because the PC went “tango uniform,” did the “dead cockroach,” ist kaput. You get the idea.
Zach, what Big Jake said. I recommend you give her the ring on whatever day the big present opening will occur. Allow the kids to see it and share the special moment.
Meeting her dad. Notice I do not refer to him as a father. Yes, he may be unstable, but I do not think so. I feel he is an extremist no better than those idiots in Kansas. He will not see anyone else as decent unless they share his strict interpretation of Christianity. That will extend to you. He will view anyone who takes up with such a sinner as his daughter as unworthy of his “blessing.” And that’s what Amy wants/needs deep down. To have him validate that even though he thinks she sinned, she’s done OK with her life. She most likely will not get what she wants. I hope you have a counseling session before the visit so the counselor can caution her not to let down her guard too much. I predict he will turn his judgemental wrath on both of you. Be forewarned.
Lovesamerica: sorry, y’all aren’t gonna get rid of me that easily! But it is getting harder to download all the previous posts. I wish we could hijack another subject and continue.
December 12, 2006 at 3:55 am
Angel:
Our discussion on the Afterlife and Purgatory
from a Jewish perspective:
Jewish Afterlife Beliefs
——————————————————————————–
Do Jews believe in the hereafter such as life after death?
THE AISH RABBI REPLIES:
The afterlife is a fundamental of Jewish belief.
The creation of man testifies to the eternal life of the soul. The Torah says, “And the Almighty formed the man of dust from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the SOUL of life” (Genesis 2:7). On this verse, the Zohar states that “one who blows, blows from within himself,” indicating that the soul is actually part of God’s essence. Since God’s essence is completely spiritual and non-physical, it is impossible that the soul should die. (The commentator Chizkuni says this why the verse calls it “soul of LIFE.”)
That’s what King Solomon meant when he wrote, “The dust will return to the ground as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes 12:17)
For anyone who believes in a just and caring God, the existence of an afterlife makes logical sense. Could it be this world is just a playground without consequences? Did Hitler get away with killing 6,000,000 Jews? No. There is obviously a place where good people receive reward and bad people get punished. (see Maimonides’ 13 Principles of Faith)
The question of “why do bad things happen to good people” has a lot to do with how we look at existence. The way we usually perceive things is like this: A “good life” means that I make a comfortable living, I enjoy good health, and then I die peacefully at age 80. That’s a good life. Anything else is “bad.”
In a limited sense, that’s true. But if we have a soul and there is such a thing as eternity, then that changes the picture entirely. Eighty years in the face of eternity is not such a big deal.
From Judaism’s perspective, our eternal soul is as real as our thumb. This is the world of doing, and the “world to come” is where we experience the eternal reality of whatever we’ve become. Do you think after being responsible for the torture and deaths of millions of people, that Hitler could really “end it all” by just swallowing some poison? No. Ultimate justice is found in another dimension.
But the concept goes much deeper. From an eternal view, if the ultimate pleasure we’re going after is transcendence – the eternal relationship with the Almighty Himself, then who would be luckier: Someone who lives an easy life with little connection to God, or someone who is born handicapped, and despite the challenges, develops a connection with God. Who would be “luckier” in terms of eternal existence? All I’m trying to point out is that the rules of life start to look different from the point of view of eternity, as opposed to just the 70 or 80 years we have on earth.
So what is the afterlife exactly?
When a person dies and goes to heaven, the judgment is not arbitrary and externally imposed. Rather, the soul is shown two videotapes. The first video is called “This is Your Life!” Every decision and every thought, all the good deeds, and the embarrassing things a person did in private is all replayed without any embellishments. It’s fully bared for all to see. That’s why the next world is called Olam HaEmet – “the World of Truth,” because there we clearly recognize our personal strengths and shortcomings, and the true purpose of life. In short, Hell is not the Devil with a pitchfork stoking the fires.
The second video depicts how a person’s life “could have been…” if the right choices had been made, if the opportunities were seized, if the potential was actualized. This video – the pain of squandered potential – is much more difficult to bear. But at the same time it purifies the soul as well. The pain creates regret which removes the barriers and enables the soul to completely connect to God.
Not all souls merit Gehenom. It is for people who have done good but need to be purified. A handful of people are too evil for Gehenom, and they are punished eternally. Pharaoh is one example.
So what about “heaven?”
Heaven is where the soul experiences the greatest possible pleasure – the feeling of closeness to God. Of course not all souls experience that to the same degree. It’s like going to a symphony concert. Some tickets are front-row center; others are back in the bleachers. Where your seat is located is based on the merit of your good deeds – e.g. giving charity, caring for others, prayer.
A second factor in heaven is your understanding of the environment. Just like at the concert, a person can have great seats but no appreciation of what’s going on. If a person spends their lifetime elevating the soul and becoming sensitive to spiritual realities (through Torah study), then that will translate into unimaginable pleasure in heaven. On the other hand, if life was all about pizza and football, well, that can get pretty boring for eternity.
The existence of the afterlife is not stated explicitly in the Torah itself, because as human beings we have to focus on our task in this world. Though awareness of an eternal reward can also be an effective motivator.
For further study, see Maimonides’ Foundations of the Torah, “The Way of God” by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzatto, and the commentary of Nachmanides to Leviticus 18:29.
May the Almighty grant you blessings, success – and eternal life!
* Zohar, Mishpatim, Exodus 1:1 * AriZal – Sha’ar Hagilgulim
from “Ask The Rabbi” – http://www.aish.com/rabbi/
December 12, 2006 at 11:39 am
lovesamerica:
Good Morning Greeneyes,
I wanted to give you something to start your day while you have your morning cup of coffee.
Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. (NRSV, 1 Corinthians 13:4-8)
LOVE IS ENOUGH
Love is enough: though the world be a-waning,
And the woods have no voice but the voice of complaining,
Though the skies be too dark for dim eyes to discover
The gold-cups and daisies fair blooming thereunder,
Though the hills be held shadows, and the sea a dark wonder,
And this day draw a veil over all deeds passed over,
Yet their hands shall not tremble, their feet shall not falter:
The void shall not weary, the fear shall not alter
These lips and these eyes of the loved and the lover.
William Morris (1834-96)
…And pardon me for musing and jumping ahead
to your Wedding night ,you all dressed up in your beautiful Wedding gown,Mike in his tuxedo
dancing with you to one of my favorite Frank Sinatra songs….
“The Way You Look Tonight”
Some day, when I’m awfully low,
When the world is cold,
I will feel a glow just thinking of you…
And the way you look tonight.
Yes you’re lovely, with your smile so warm
And your cheeks so soft,
There is nothing for me but to love you,
And the way you look tonight.
With each word your tenderness grows,
Tearing my fear apart…
And that laugh that wrinkles your nose,
It touches my foolish heart.
Lovely … never, ever change.
Keep that breathless charm.
Won’t you please arrange it ?
’cause I love you … just the way you look tonight.
Mm, mm, mm, mm,
Just the way you look to-night.
[ http://www.azlyrics.com ]
Have a great day!
Love ,
Jake
December 12, 2006 at 11:53 am
Zach, the ring sounds beautiful!!! ONE CARAT??!!?? ONE LUCKY GIRL!! I disagree with DJ. I suggest showing the kids AFTER you give her the ring privately. You want to make this romantic. Say things to her just between the two of you before you share it with the kids and the rest of the family. That’s how I would want it. Give it to her Christmas night after she thinks Christmas is over. The surprise will add to the romance. Again, this is just me and what I would want. I’d want to be alone with my man and have him tell me how he wants me to be his forever, that he loves me and wants me to be his bride, and then pull the ring out of his pocket and slip it into my hand. I get all goose bumps just thinking about it. I wish I could be a little bug on the wall and watch her eyes light up when she sees that ring. I’m so happy for you.
I think Amy wants to see her family because no matter what happens to someone, you always want to hope things can be fixed. She’s happy now, and hopes her family can be part of it, no matter how weird they are. She’s a better woman than me, because if someone beat me senseless and treated my daughter like dirt, I’d probably hate them forever. To mutilate her back like that and leave scars on her. That guy’s a nut. But the good news is, God has brought her a hero that will save the day! She’s confident going back there that since you’re with her she’s safe. She’s trying. God will bless her efforts. The result may not be what she’s hoping for, but God sees her heart, and his reward is better than anything she will get here on Earth anyway. She just wants to feel loved and forgiven by them. I hope they’re nice to her.
DJ…..what do you mean, hijack another subject. What subject?? Are we boring you or something? Maybe you’re computer is dieing of boredom. We’re all friends sharing our lives. It doesn’t have to be all technical and world problem solving does it? It’s Christmas. It’s magical. Lighten up…be DJ!!! We’ll get back to all the serious stuff later on. Don’t be a sourpuss. What did you buy Paula for Christmas?
Big Jake, good morning! I hope you have a great day and I hope you get everything you want for Christmas!
Hugs to you all! (I’m throwing a special big hug and kiss just for you, Zach)
December 12, 2006 at 3:32 pm
Big Jake, I just read through #884. You are so sweet. I’m squeezing you. Thank you for being the nicest man I’ve ever met.
I love you!!
December 12, 2006 at 5:51 pm
Jake!!! My Dad called me. His voice was all shaky when he was talking. We both were crying on the phone. He asked me if he could get a flight out, if it would be alright if he came down for a few days!! He said we had a lot to talk about. He’s going to call me later tonight. I’m so happy!! My throat is all tight and I can hardly concentrate. Jake, you were right. I can’t believe my Dad is coming here. Just him. I can’t wait. I’ll write more later. Jake, thank you. Thank you, thank you. You did this. Thank you.
December 12, 2006 at 7:16 pm
lovesamerica;
Me again,
Glad you liked #844 When these thoughts pop into my head ,I hope you don’t mind that I share them with you. I call it inspiration.
Regarding your response to DJ in #885 ,I think you misunderstand him. When he said we should hijack another subject ,I think he means another thread. This is post 886 and with a dying computer I am sure he is having difficulties loading the site. He isn’t saying to change the subject! We have too much going on!
Again ,I am getting ahead of myself ,but I see all the pieces of the puzzle coming into focus and coming together. Any news yet regarding your Dad and the letter?
Also , wouldn’t it be nice if the priest you speak with were to perform your Wedding Ceremony?
love ,
Jake
December 12, 2006 at 7:22 pm
lovesamerica:
WOW!! JACKPOT!!! HOMERUN!!!!!TOUCHDOWN!!!!!
WELL HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT!!!!!!!!!!
MERRY CHRISTMAS,EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!
December 12, 2006 at 7:55 pm
OOPS! Sorry DJ. I’m dumb about computers. I thought you meant the things we were talking about should change. Forgive me? Please? You’re too smart for me. I told you before, you talk over my head. Sometimes I have to re-read your posts several times before I get them. I’m not the sharpest tack in the box.
JAKE, I AM SOOOOOOO EXCITED. My Dad was so emotional. I could hear it in his voice and then I started blubbering. He told me he never forgot how we were. He thought I did. Jake, I can’t wait to see my Dad. I’m going to run to him as soon as I see him. I’m anxious to talk to him tonight. We couldn’t talk very long on the phone because we were both working, but he said I love you, honey a lot. I’m so happy. I can’t wait for him to see my apartment and to meet Mike. I’m so happy.
I love my priest friend, Father Paul. I don’t want to think that far ahead with Mike. I told you, he could dump me. It’s too new. If I think that way, I might end up very disappointed. It scares me. He scares me a little.
Thanks Jake. What are we going to do about this thread thing? I don’t want to lose DJ. Or anyone else.
I’m anxious to talk to my Dad tonight.
Love you.
September 17, 2021 at 9:59 pm
December 12, 2006 at 8:18 pm
lovesamerica:
You wrote:
I don’t want to think that far ahead with Mike. I told you, he could dump me. It’s too new. If I think that way, I might end up very disappointed. It scares me. He scares me a little.
Sweetheart,
I don’t know how to tell you this, but you are on a roll. In Las Vegas or Atlantic City you go with the hot hand . YOU HAVE IT . GO WITH IT!
I’m not saying there isn’t a chance you won’t be disappointed. Again,that’s life. Live it or be an empty shell. Plan for the good things in life that you want. Have faith in Jesus. Pray.
Make it work! Keep Mike on the straight and narrow. This is HIS second chance at love.This is his chance to become a doctor.
If he is lucky ,he gets both the degree and a beautiful, loving wife ! Are you going to deny him that?
Finally ,I haven’t been wrong so far . I hear Wedding Bells in the future.
Go for it!
And as far as your father is concerned,us dads and accountants watch out for each other!
I’m so happy for you I could bust!
Love,
Jake
December 13, 2006 at 1:29 am
Jake, DJ, apparently the counselor told Amy she should try to resolve the relationship with her father. She does carry a lot of baggage about it. I know she envies people with family. Amy commented on Caroline’s family, how it would be wonderful to have a family like that. She’s made comments about me and my sister. Amy has no one. She wants her family to love her and she believes she disappointed them. She still thinks it’s her own fault she got beat. The counselor’s working with her on that. Her father IS a beater. All the women in the family do everything he says. They’re scared no to. I’m dieing to meet this guy. I’m anxious to see how he approaches me. He’s an idiot if he doesn’t sense I won’t take his shit. I AM big, and I do have a real mean streak. Stuff like this is fuel for me. I promised Amy I will be nice. And I will be. Unless he does or says something out of line. Because I WILL put that prick up against a wall. I’ve done it to other guys for less of a reason than this. I’d like to anyway. Please don’t lecture me. If it was Paula, Carmen, or one of your daughters, you’d feel different. You’d do the same thing.
I’ve decided to give the ring the way lovesamerica suggested. I asked my sister, and she said I should give it to her privately, too. I asked a good female friend that works in dispatch what she thought, and she said the same thing, to propose to her privately, just between us. So, I’ll do the sweet talking romance thing. By the way, lovesamerica, congratulations on your Dad. I’m glad things worked out for you. Jake’s no dummy about people.
December 13, 2006 at 2:34 am
Hey, folks! Miracles do happen! UPS brought the new PC tonight.
Zach. Good. Follow the gals’ advice. If they think they know what’s romantic, go for it. My two-cents worth was to include the kids. I thought it would start a “family” bond.
lovesamerica. Glad to hear your father is willing to repair the “wrongs” of the past. Enjoy. And, as Big Jake said, I suggested “adopting” another string since it’s getting a bit difficult to download this one. We’d still be able to “see” who’s posted, as the homepage lists the most recent strings’ contributions. The new PC is loading the present string OK. I guess I’m just grousing.
December 13, 2006 at 2:47 am
Zach:
My concern is not only for you losing your temper and giving this guy what he deserves, it is for Amy and the reopening of old scars. It is how she would look at you if you put her father up against the wall. Remember that she has a love /hate thing going with him .
you wrote:
She wants her family to love her and she believes she disappointed them. She still thinks it’s her own fault she got beat. The counselor’s working with her on that. Her father IS a beater.
I speak as a voice of caution because I once also put someone up against the wall. It was in the 8th grade .The class bully had been riding me for three years. He humiliated me one time too many in front of everyone and I snapped that day. I actually saw “red” like I looking through rose colored glasses. I blocked his jab
and grabbed him by the throat. I didn’t know it at the time but I had him in a “Ranger choke hold” . I COULD HAVE FRACTURED HIS LARYNX AND BROKEN HIS WIND PIPE. When I came to my senses , I had him pinned up against the lockers by the throat with him gasping for breath.
The situation scared me , and I vowed that day to never lose control of myself again. By the way, I ran into him again 20 years later. He became a NYC police sargent in Brooklyn. We had a very nice conversation.
No ,I won’t lecture you. I am just telling you how I would react and my reason as described above. I would feel just as you do if it were Carmen.
Take my advice , if the situation turns sour, just say it is time to leave and walk away.
December 13, 2006 at 11:41 am
Jake, I talked with my Dad last night. HE’S FLYING IN THIS SUNDAY, DEC. 17 AND LEAVING ON THE 20TH!! I can’t believe it. I kept wiping tears off my face the whole time we were talking. It sounds weird, but it seems like everything has changed. He’s opened right up. He apologized several times for not being able to make it work with my Mom. I told him I understood because I couldn’t make it work, either. That’s why I’m here. I told him in the letter how I remembered him bringing me home surprises from work. He mentioned that and told me he’s bringing me a surprise this time, too!! When he said that, I said, Oh, Daddy, and he started to choke up. He said he thought my Mom had turned us against him and he knew the relationship between me and his wife was strained. He said we’ll talk more when he gets here. I told him I had always remembered being Daddy’s girl, and he said I have always been Daddy’s girl in his heart. That makes me cry. He’s anxious to meet Mike, and I told Mike he’s coming so he’s going to tell his parents so we can get together with them. Jake, God’s smiling down at me isn’t he? I’m so excited. This is the best Christmas ever.
DJ, thanks for accepting me as the dumb kid I am. I’ll have to look up grousing because I don’t know what that means. I use simpler words when I talk. I told you, you talk over my head. You’re too smart. I’m glad you have a new computer because I’d never want you to leave us.
Zach…you be a GOOD BOY. I don’t understand you. How can someone so sweet, loveable and romantic like you have a mean side? I don’t believe it. Concerning Amy’s father, I know inside you want to “right” the “wrong”, but that won’t happen. The damage is done. Her scars on the outside are healed. Now it’s time to heal the ones inside. Do what Jake says. Leave if her father acts like a jerk. Let God deal with his punishment. It says in the Bible somewhere that if anyone harms a “little one” (child), it would be better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck and be thrown into the deepest part of the ocean. Let God handle this “man”. God brought you into Amy’s life to love her, provide for her and protect her FROM NOW ON. Let God deal with her father and her past. I love you, and I don’t want you to do anything stupid.
I love you all.
December 13, 2006 at 11:49 am
lovesamerica:
Good Morning Greeneyes!
How did the conversation go last night with your Dad?
Just a thought- If your Dad is going to spend a few days with you,why don’t you introduce him to Father Paul?
You wrote:
I really like this preist. He’s so loveable and he has the nicest eyes. He’s sincere. I like the way he talks about God. We’re friends now. I told him about my letter and some of the things I put in it. He said that’s the most precious gift my father will get this Christmas. I got all teary and I asked him if I could hug him and he said of course. (When I hugged him, I kinda pretended it was you!) I’m still nervous about that letter.
He is a part of this special “Christmas story”
and it would make the old guy feel good.
Love,
Jake
December 13, 2006 at 1:42 pm
lovesamerica:
Amy,
This has been a magical Christmas season so far
for you and Mike ,you and your Dad, Zach,Amy,Josh and Cassie.
Random thought-
If I were to cast “The Wizzard of OZ
The Tin Man – Zach
The Scarecrow – DJ
The Cowardly Lion -Big Jake
Dorothy -lovesamerica
Glenda the Good Witch -Red Dawn
Aunty Em -Angel,Americanwoman
Just a thought, maybe it would be a good idea to print off the meaningful posts to this thread and make a scrap book for yourself. Who knows when this will end? If it should end suddenly ,it would be something to remember us by.
Yes , I think God is smiling down upon you!
Have a great day!
Love,
Jake
December 13, 2006 at 1:51 pm
Big Jake, I love DJ, but you’re my Scarecrow.
I’m going to cook a nice dinner Sunday night and have Mike over to meet my Dad. I’m going to invite Father Paul. You’ll be there with us in my heart. (You will always be in my heart.) Are you surprised that I can actually cook? I’ve done a lot of experimenting with different recipes. Do you have any suggestions for dinner? I was thinking maybe ham, or a roast. My apartment is small, but very cozy. I’m going to put candles on the table, dim the lights, have a little wine….it’s a celebration, you know.
I love you, Lou…….forever.
December 13, 2006 at 3:13 pm
Big Jake, thumbs up for taking care of the bully. More kids should be that way. We wouldn’t have the bully problem in school. Bully’s are cowards. They only pick on kids they think they can take. I learned that early. I had a similar altercation in grade school. I was always afraid to fight. Some older kid was pushing me around, slapping me in the head, pulling my hair. I was a lot smaller than he was, and when I tried to get away, he grabbed me and ended up tearing my shirt. That’s when I found out I had a temper. I remember getting pissed fast. I pushed him as hard as I could and ended up beating the crap out of him. I stopped when he started crying. I liked the way I felt afterward and was never afraid after that. I got respect from the other kids. No one ever picked on me again. I always tell Josh, don’t you ever start trouble, but don’t you ever run from it, either. Take care of it. I told him I’d deal with the school if they get involved. I can’t be with him all the time and he’s got to learn to stand up for himself. If he runs, he’ll get picked on forever. He hasn’t had any trouble yet. He’ll be okay. He’s got a temper. I don’t think he’ll ever take much crap. I see it in his personality.
I haven’t had a chance to look on ebay for the jersey. That’s the last place I go because you pay top dollar there. I know some people in Buffalo that are looking around for me. Thanks for telling me, though.
Changed my mind again about the ring. I think I’ll give it to her Christmas Eve after the kids go to bed. I’m going to have the fireplace going, get some wine, play some nice music. Love her up a bit first. I’m going to pull a Jake on her. Then I’ll give her the ring. That way, she’ll have it Christmas morning to show the kids and when we go visiting everyone she can show it off. Girls like that. What do you think about that idea?
I promise I’m going to be a christian gentlemen to Amy’s family. I promise. We’re only going to be there a couple of hours so hopefully this clown will act decent. If he doesn’t we’ll go. I might accidentally run over him when we leave, but I can’t help that.
Kidding.
December 13, 2006 at 5:24 pm
Big Jake: Figures you’d cast me as the frumpy old lady in the bun. Haha. I don’t want you to get the wrong impression, but if you saw me, you’d never guess I was in my 50’s. I’m still thin, I still wear fashionable jeans, wear makeup,wear perfume, and my hair is still long & stylish. I don’t have the fat thighs & butt, thick waist, droopy boobs or short, middle-age hair cuts most women my age have. I’ll be Aunty Em, but a revised version. I don’t work out and watch what I eat for nothing. Deal?
Zach: You’re wise to take Jake’s advice. Be careful. People like this don’t snap. They’re already snapped. Weird and unpredictable.
lovesamerica: Your Christmas is a dream come true for you. You have your own little magical Christmas story. I’m so glad you and your Dad have found each other again. You’re fortunate. I was 14 when my father died. I was the baby with 3 older brothers. My brothers might’ve had seniority, but I had the best postion in the house. The baby and a girl. My Dad was wonderful and I still miss him to this day.
Zach again: You sound very hunky (that’s what we used to call it when I was in High School) and romantic to me. Your idea for Christmas Eve, well, all I can say is Amy will melt in your arms. I’m glad you’ve found happiness again.
DJ: Couldn’t leave without telling you I missed reading your posts. I’m glad you’re back. I’m also glad you have a new computer.
We’re quite a mix on here arn’t we?
God Bless you all.
December 14, 2006 at 2:01 am
“If I only had a brain!” D-uuuh! What’s this button do?
December 14, 2006 at 4:27 am
DJ:
Our roles were switched. That’s my line.
your line :
“If I was King of the forrrrrest….”
December 14, 2006 at 5:47 am
Angel:
Deal. I know you’re not “Frumpy”.But admit it, you are an “Aunty Em” just as I’m an Uncle Henry”.
Besides the only other open female roles were Elmira Gulch and the Wicked Witch of the West,definitely not for you.
Oh, the trials and tribulations of casting!
December 14, 2006 at 6:00 am
lovesamerica:
How about Italian pot roast and vegetables
ITALIAN-STYLE BEEF POT ROAST
SERVES 6
I love a good Pot Roast. This is most definitely one of the best, at least when you are on a tomato kick.
INGREDIENTS
One 2-1/2 pound chuck roast
Salt, pepper and all-purpose flour
Olive oil
2 medium onions, chopped into 1-inch pieces
2 medium carrots, sliced into 3/4-inch pieces
4 medium red potatoes
6 large cloves garlic, peeled and slightly smashed
1-1/2 cups dry red wine
1 tablespoon tomato paste
1 can (8.0 ounces) Tomato Sauce
1 bay leaf
1 teaspoon dried thyme
1 tablespoon dried marjoram leaves
1 tablespoon dried parsley leaves
8 ounces button mushrooms, whole or halved
Water, as needed
Sprinkle roast with salt, pepper and a little flour. Heat enough olive oil to cover the bottom of a large sauté pan over medium-high heat. Add the roast and brown well on both sides. Add the onions patatoes and carrots and sauté until slightly golden. Add the garlic and sauté another minute. Pour in the wine; scrape up all browned bits from bottom of pan. Stir in the tomato paste until well-combined. Add the tomato sauce, bay leaf, thyme, marjoram, parsley and additional salt and pepper. Cover; reduce to medium-low and braise until meat is fork-tender, about 1-1/2 hours. Add the mushrooms after about 30 minutes. Turn the meat and check occasionally in case it needs some water. If there appears to be too much liquid, remove lid until the broth reduces to desired texture. Serve immediately, scooping sauce over meat , and potatoes.
Serve with crusty loaf of Italian Bread
——————————————————————————–
December 14, 2006 at 9:06 am
Bi Jake: Okay, I don’t know wht I’m admitting to, but I’ll be Aunty Em. I don’t want my role to be switched to Elmira Gulch.
Up early. Couldn’t sleep. Woke up thinking aabout Christmas and my Mom. My husband, who is not an animal person, brought me home a little kitten a few days before Thanksgiving. It’s gray and white. Adorable. I call her Nibs, because she’s so nosey. She’s a lap cat. Very loveable. She’s been a Godsend. I came downstairs because I couldn’t sleep and it was nice having that little bundle on my lap purring.
December 14, 2006 at 11:37 am
Big Jake, thank you for the recipe. I printed it off and I’m going to make it. I don’t know when, tho. Plans have changed. My Dad’s plane is scheduled to arrive at 3:28pm, so by the time I pick him up, even if there arn’t any delays, it might be a little late to fix a nice dinner. Soooo, Mike’s parents want us to bring him to their home and Mike’s Mom is fixing dinner for us. She’s making lasagne. Yum. Mike was going to drive me to the airport, but I told him I wanted to pick my Dad up by myself. I told him I would meet him at his parents. He’s fine with it, and I’m glad, because I just want it to be Dad and me when he first gets here. Am I wrong? Even if I am, too bad, because that’s the way I want it. I took Mon-Wed off from work. I almost didn’t get it. When I asked my boss she turned it down at first because there are so many people off now. I thought I was going to burst out crying but I held it in. Then I told her why I wanted it and she stared at me for a minute and then said, okay. I’m glad. She’s very nice. Very understanding. I love working for her. I stopped and told Father Paul about my Dad coming to town. He HUGGED me. I love that priest. I asked him if he would be able to come to dinner maybe Mon or Tues. and he said it’s possible, just to let him know. I’m so excited about all of this.
Angel, my Christmas is going to probably be the best ever, and yours is probably going to be the saddest. I’m so sorry. Your husband is sweet to bring you home a kitten like that. I love cats. I can’t have one where I live, but maybe someday I’ll have my own house and be able to have a pet. Your personality fits Aunty Em. Your description sounds like some of the women I work with. These older women today arn’t like they used to be. Some of them in our office put the younger ones to shame, so I know what you mean. They really take care of themselves. One lady in particular, she’s in her 50’s and I could’ve sworn when I started working there she was late 30’s, that’s how good she looks. I want to be like that. I don’t want to be some frumpy, fat, let yourself go type woman. I don’t think it’s fair to your husband. Especially if he still looks good. It’s no wonder some men cheat. They’re around good looking women all day that smell good, and they left a shabby wife smelling like bacon and eggs in the morning. I have the feeling you’re not like that. Anyway, I’l be praying you get through this Christmas with as much happiness as possible. Give Nibs a kiss for me.
Hi DJ. You never told me what you’re getting your wife for Christmas. I’m like Nibs. I’m nosey.
Zach, you steal my heart everytime. Lucky Amy. Getting a rock like that and you all the same night. I’ve said it a million times. You do something for me. You really do.
Love you all.
December 14, 2006 at 11:58 pm
lovesamerica: I don’t mind sharing the info. I got her three things. She’s always envious of my Air Force logo T-shirts, so I got her one that says “Air Force Wife. Don’t confuse your rank with my authority!” (I’m an E-9/Chief Master Sergeant in the reserves) Next, a powder blue sweat shirt with “Air Force Wife” in a white thread, cursive-script print. And Yes, something expensive; a garnet bracelet. History lesson: a while back Paula said she was going to start a rock collection. I said “OK.” She said the first one was going to be blue topaz. I said, “Ah! Message received.” So, with each stone there are four gifts (birthday, anniversary, Christmas, and Mother’s Day), as I get her a ring, necklace, bracelet, and earrings for each stone. The next year, a different stone. So far she has the blue topaz, citrine, dark-blue sapphires, and the bracelet completes the garnet set. That leaves amethyst (next), rubies, green emeralds, diamonds, etc. I just hope the darned QVC/HSC/Debt-by-cable will stop “discovering” new stones (most are lab created). Every show she sees some “new” stone. Thank Heavens the mounts are ugly as sin! That’s just more grousing… Oh, sorry… complaining about the subject. ; )
And we’re animal lovers, too. I personally love cats… sauted’ with a wine sauce. ; ) Ooooh!!! Did I hit a nerve? Go too far? But seriously, folks. I DO really like cats. Better than dogs. You live with a cat, you care for a dog. We’re on our third cat. (No, the first two didn’t meet their demise in my kitchen!!!) The first was a hit and run, the second we had to put down. And it’s hardest on me because the little furballs always fall in love with me, even though they’re the kids, Paula’s, etc. So when something happens I feel the worst. I told Paula after this last one I don’t want any more. I’m tired of the heartache of seeing them go. I know, Big Jake, that’s what makes us human. Without going into a looooong tirade, let’s just say I feel I deserve to remove my heart from my sleeve when it comes to furry little critters.
Before it’s asked, nope, no kids home for Christmas. Paula’s oldest is, shall we say, a “guest of the state” for some stupidity a while back, her daughter married a chap from Central America and moved down there (this will be her first Christmas away, and I mean really away, from home!), and my daughter has picked up her first serious beau this year. They’re going to his folks for Christmas and we gave them tickets to fly down here for New Years. So, this year it will be a combination of “Meet the Parents,” “Son-in-Law,” “The In-Laws,” and all the other great, older classics that I can’t think of titles of at the moment. I’ve been telling ‘Bec that I’ve got my lie detector calibrated, bright lights set up in my “interrogation room,” and signed off emails as “Tomas de Torquemada.” He was the “nice fellow” that was behind the Spanish Inquisition, for those that the name rings a bell, but you can’t drag the reference out of the cobwebs. Gee, it’s fun picking on the kids!
Well, I’ve got Paula’s school’s Christmas party to attend at 1930 CST, so I’ll sign off for a while and check back later for hate mail and death threats from PETA for my cat joke.
December 15, 2006 at 11:44 am
lovesamerica:
Goodmorning,
Correction on the recipe –
use 8 medium or 6 large potatoes and 4 carrots!
Enjoy!
December 15, 2006 at 3:10 pm
Big Jake, thanks for the correction to the recipe. I think I’m going to make that for my little celebration dinner Monday night. That’s the only night Father Paul can make it, and I want him to meet my Dad.
I missed you yesterday. I never told you before, but I really like it when you call me “green eyes” and “sweetheart”.
DJ, you’re wife is lucky to have someone buy her all the things she likes. All your gifts sound beautiful. I’ve decided to start collecting rocks, too. Only just diamonds. I love diamonds. When I look at the necklaces, bracelets, rings, etc. I just drool. Hey, since you and Paula will be “alone” together, maybe you should make the pot roast, grab a bottle of wine, & listen to soft Christmas music and just enjoy each other that day. I’m also sure your cats warmed up to you because you’re the one that plays with them. I picture you teasing them with strings, and pulling things across the floor to drive them crazy. You’re a nice man.
Zach, (& Angel) I bought some of that Exotic coconut. I bought the shower gel, lotion, & spray. I’m going to try it out on Mike tonight. It does smell fabulous. Thanks. I also bought the Sensual Amber. I liked that the best when I smelled them in the store, but since the coconut is the one that trips your trigger, I’ll do that one first.
Love you all. Big,Big,I missed you hug for Jake.
December 15, 2006 at 7:47 pm
Big Jake, DJ, I’ve been listening to the radio factor all day. Bill O’Reilly is off and another guy is in his place. He’s been talking about Iran. Is anyone as afraid of Ahmadinejad as I am? I wish we’d take him out.
I’m afraid he’s going to rob me of my future. He needs to go. Along with Chavez and N. Korea.
December 15, 2006 at 9:57 pm
Re: lovesamerica # 909. We aren’t sure what we’ll cook this year. We haven’t done a turkey in a while and are considering that. We love putting a roast in a crockpot in the morning before we go to work, so we can come home to a complete, hot meal in the evening. We do that once or twice a month. Since we’re on the coast we may do some kind of seafood. No telling. We just do what catches our fancy at the time.
lovesamerica # 910. “Ahm-ah-nut-job” is not the concern. It’s radical Islam as a whole. If their moderates won’t reign them in, like most extremist Christians eventually were, the radical islamo-fascists will have to be exterminated the same as the Nazis. Thus the choice is theirs, clean up their own backyards or we will sooner or later.
Remember it was noted that the TRUE powers-that-be within the Iranian government have suggested that “The Monkey” may not serve his full term at the request of the Islamic Council (that actually runs the country). They are intelligent enough to know how to wage a media war against us, but yet fear our economic power. They are praying that our western decandence will be our downfall. If we don’t wake up, their prayers may be answered: gay marriage, single-parent related youth problems in out inner cities, the chipping away at our rights to be vocal about Christian, conservative matters, bi-partisan bickering… Need I go on?
No, WW III IS going on right now and it’s a combination guerrilla warfare and economic posturing for world dominance. I know it sounds ugly, but in a way we, too, are attempting to spread our way of life across the globe. Yes, our way is much better than living under communism, islamo-fascism, or any tin-idol, backwater dictator’s rule. BUT… are folks in the world better off because they can wear Levis/Nikes/Tommy Hilfiger, smoke Marlboros, drink Coca-Cola, harden their arteries with McDonalds, and numb their minds playing Nintendo? But that’s where that “freedom of choice” thing applies. Human nature… what an interesting combination of fishbowl and anthill!
Am I in a bad mood? No, not really. Just occasionally someone will post something that will set me off and I’ll download the opinions that have been accumulating in this void where a brain usually resides in most human beings.
December 15, 2006 at 10:24 pm
DJ, I hope I didn’t set you off. I get nervous about the world. I want to have a happy life. Fall in love, get married, buy a house, have kids and watch them grow. This “nutjob” wants to destroy us. On a personal level, he wants to steal my dreams. Iran is causing the majority of problems. I think we need to do something.
I can’t talk because Mike is picking me up in a few minutes. (I’m wearing my coconut stuff..hope he notices!)
Take care…enjoy your weekend.
December 16, 2006 at 12:02 pm
Big Jake, I hope you’re just busy with the season and that’s why you haven’t been on here much the last couple of days. Maybe I’m imagining it, but I think you’re slowly saying good-bye. I always knew this wouldn’t last forever, but, it still makes me feel sad. I feel like I know you and you’re one of my best friends.
Thanks for encouraging me to write that letter. I have my Dad back. Thanks for the advice with Mike. He’s wonderful. I think we probably will end up getting married. He told me last night he thinks he’s fallng in love with me. (Maybe it was the coconut. He noticed it right away and said I smelled terrific. Thanks Zach and Angel. You were right.)
I love all of you and I’ll never forget our friendships. But Big Jake, I love you most of all. You’re my scarecrow. I’ll never be able to watch the Wizard of Oz again without thinking of you. Merry Christmas. It’s a wonderful life.
December 16, 2006 at 2:03 pm
lovesamerica:
Good Morning ‘Coconut”!
Yes , I have been scrambling around with Christmas stuff. Office parties,tax planning
etc.
Hope everything is going well . You have accomplished alot in the five months we have been conversing on this site. You have your Dad back, you have Mike, you feel better about yourself. I am proud of you! Don’t you ever forget it.
When you see your Dad ,hug him and tell him you are never going to let him go. And let Father Paul know that Jesus worked these miracles. Remember He is the vine ,we are the branches.
Father Paul is a part of this.All priests need encouragement. Their faith led them to commit to their vocation. Stories like this are food for the soul.
I told you that I could hear wedding bells, now you hear them too! Mike is a very lucky young man!
I hope the dinner goes well. Dessert? What do you think?
No, I am not saying goodbye. I want to hear how the stories turn out. I GUESS i’m nosey like Nibs,too!
December 16, 2006 at 4:41 pm
lovesamerica:
RE:POST #910 Iran and SYRIA ARE HAPPY THAT WE ARE TIED UP IM IRAQ.
That way ,they have a diversion for their dissident element to focus on. If we are tied up in Iraq, the Iranian dissidents can not expect help from us. We also can not invade those countries either while we are engaged in Iraq.
December 16, 2006 at 9:21 pm
lovesamerica:
“Somewhere Over the Rainbow”
music by Harold Arlen and lyrics by E.Y. Harburg
Somewhere over the rainbow
Way up high,
There’s a land that I heard of
Once in a lullaby.
Somewhere over the rainbow
Skies are blue,
And the dreams that you dare to dream
Really do come true.
Someday I’ll wish upon a star
And wake up where the clouds are far
Behind me.
Where troubles melt like lemon drops
Away above the chimney tops
That’s where you’ll find me.
Somewhere over the rainbow
Bluebirds fly.
Birds fly over the rainbow.
Why then, oh why can’t I?
If happy little bluebirds fly
Beyond the rainbow
Why, oh why can’t I?
Greeneyes,
Maybe you’re in Oz.
Maybe Heaven .
I’ve got it. You’ve found Heaven on earth!
Life is what you make it.
Love,
Jake
December 16, 2006 at 11:26 pm
lovesamerica:
And another Frank Sinatra favorite………..
I’ve Got You Under My Skin
Ive got you under my skin
Ive got you deep in the heart of me
So deep in my heart, that you’re really a part of me
Ive got you under my skin
I’ve tried so not to give in
I’ve said to myself this affair never will go so well
But why should I try to resist, when baby I know so well
That Ive got you under my skin
I’d sacrifice anything come what might
For the sake of having you near
In spite of a warning voice that comes in the night
And repeats, repeats in my ear
Don’t you know little fool, you never can win
Use your mentality, wake up to reality
But each time I do, just the thought of you
Makes me stop before I begin
cause I’ve got you under my skin
December 17, 2006 at 12:46 am
Re: lovesamerica # 910. No, you didn’t set me off. I was (and am) already “off.” You started the thought, I just added my two-cents worth. OK… 43 cents worth. Yep, as we’ve said before, what interesting times we live in.
Speaking of off, I’ve been trying to fix a fan belt on my step-son’s truck. It keeps throwing the rear one. The chap at the parts place said to replace the idler pulley, its bearing is going or bad. OK, give me one, I said. I get home, it’s too small. I go back with the old one, not in stock. Looks like I have to change the bearing in the old one, of course it’s a dealer item, and I have to wait until Monday to see if I can even get one. I swear, horses are looking better every day! Oh, and lovesamerica, just for clarification, that’s bitching, not grousing or complaining. ; )
Time for supper and an adult beverage or two… or three. Cheers!
December 17, 2006 at 11:23 am
Big Jake, DJ, I’m up early today because I got home just a couple of hours ago and can’t sleep!! The company Christmas Party was last night. We had a blast. The food was great, the band was great. I bought a “sexy” black dress with glitter all through it, slit up the side. I wore spike heels. I had a hair appt Sat. afternoon and had my hair put in a french braid and when I got home I sprayed a light touch of glitter in it. I bought some long, gold, threaders (earrings in case you don’t know too.) I had to practice walking in the shoes, and I finally got it. When Mike picked me up the first thing he said was that I looked gorgeous. I felt so good after that. Mike looked so hot. He wore a black suit with a dark maroon shirt and black tie. He’s a hottie. I was so proud to be with him. I had on those 3″ heels, and he was still taller than me. I never wanted the slow dances to end. The party broke up after 2:00am, and then a bunch of us went out to breakfast. We all mainly just sat around drinking coffee and laughing. Mike blends right in. He’s smart and talks intelligent. All my friends think I hit it big. I think so, too. He’s a keeper. I’m in the clouds. I pointed out the little guy I went out with to Mike. He just laughed and asked me what I as smoking when I did that. Sounds mean, but it was funny.
My Dad’s coming in today and that’s another reason I can’t sleep. Can’t wait to see my Daddy. I am never letting anything get between us again. Never ever. I know I’ll cry when I see him. I have my apartment so spic and span Mike could do surgery in here if he wanted to. Haha. I have scented candles burning so everything smells good. My Dad loves butterscotch candy so I bought a bag and have them all in a pretty dish just for him. I can’t wait to see him. Dessert for Monday night will probably be apple pie. That’s another of my Dad’s favorites, but it has to be home made. That’s the only kind he’ll eat because he says the “store-boughts” taste like sh… That’s my Dad. I make a good one, so I’m pretty sure he’ll like it.
DJ, sorry about your son’s car. I hate it when things like that happen. I know nothing about cars or how they work, so a garage could tell me anything and I’d have to believe it and pay whatever they wanted to charge.
Jake, thanks for the songs. Life is wonderful. Even though we go through crappy periods of time, sometimes years of crappy periods of time, we just have to believe things will eventually work out. If we never have any problems, we’d never be any help to anyone when they have them. Problems strengthen you and make you appreciate life when they’re finally resolved.
Jake, I’m glad you’re not gone. I’d really miss you. You’re my sweety. Don’t ever forget you adopted me once. I’ll never forget. Daddy #2.
Love you all.
December 17, 2006 at 12:21 pm
lovesamerica:
Good Morning Green Eyes!
You wrote:
I bought a “sexy” black dress with glitter all through it, slit up the side. I wore spike heels. I had a hair appt Sat. afternoon and had my hair put in a french braid and when I got home I sprayed a light touch of glitter in it. I bought some long, gold, threaders (earrings in case you don’t know too.) I had to practice walking in the shoes, and I finally got it. When Mike picked me up the first thing he said was that I looked gorgeous. I felt so good after that.
WOW!…………..like Cinderella at the Ball with Prince Charming! Like Audrey Hepburn in “Breakfast at Tiffany’s”
You wrote:
Life is wonderful. Even though we go through crappy periods of time, sometimes years of crappy periods of time, we just have to believe things will eventually work out. If we never have any problems, we’d never be any help to anyone when they have them. Problems strengthen you and make you appreciate life when they’re finally resolved.
Beauty AND Brains! What a combination! Mike is Never letting you get away, NEVER.
You are going to make your Dad sooooo proud and happy when he sees you. Enjoy and celebrate. You deserve it!
Love ,
Jake
December 17, 2006 at 3:30 pm
Re: lovesamerica # 919. Sounds like you were “dressed to kill” and succeeded in “mass murder” at the party. I’m glad you had a great time last night and I hope you’ll have an equally wonderful time today. And don’t fret, all will be fine with your reunion with your Dad. My daughter, Rebeca, and I see each other about once a year and it’s like we haven’t been apart every visit. There’s a bond that is established at birth between a Dad and his little girl that is very difficult to break. Yes, you’re always “my/our little girl,” and unfortunately we treat y’all as such some times. It’s not meant to be meddlesome or overbearing, we just still have the programming wired in to our psyche to protect you from harm and to rip out the guts of anyone that does.
Big Jake, I think our little cygnet has turned into a swan. (sniff!) I need a tissue…
December 17, 2006 at 3:44 pm
Big Jake, I dozed off for a little bit and when I woke up, I checked, and there you were! MIke and I went to mass last night before the party. A lot of people must’ve been going to parties last night because so many of them were all dressed up. Mike doesn’t ever like to miss church. I like that, because if we do get married, he will be the leader of our home and I want his leader to be God. There’s something very secure about a man that goes to church. Mike and I have had some long talks about religion, and I told him I could never marry anyone that didn’t have Jesus in their heart. He told me after his “ex-girlfrend” had that abortion, God revealed a lot of truths to him, and he said he realized he’d been practicing his faith, but he didn’t have a relationship with Jesus. A friend of his told him about asking Jesus into your heart to be saved, and he said when he did that, he finally felt forgiven even tho he had gone to cnfession several times. He doesn’t like to drink (he’ll have a glass of wine with me once in awhile) and he doesn’t swear. I think he’s a good man. I think about him all the time, and I can hardly wait to see him and talk to him. I’m falling. I hope I don’t fall on my face. When we would dance last night he’d kiss me on the forehead once in a while, or just look at me and tell me I was beautiful. I hope he means it, because it did make me feel like a princess. I’m being swept away…it’s a great feeling. Scary, but I wouldn’t want to live my life and never have had this happen. Even if I do get hurt, I wouldn’t have wanted to miss this.
Jake, I wish you could meet my Dad and me. I’m going to tell him about you. I’m going to let him read some of the posts I’ve printed off. I think you and my Dad could be good friends.
I think you know you have a very special place in my heart. I don’t know how much I’ll be on here the next few days because I’ll be busy with my Dad. He’s going to take me out to dinner Tuesday night. Just the two of us. He told me to pick the best place in town. This is really Christmas. I’m getting everything I ever wanted…not from Santa, but from the Lord. He DOES know our hearts and our needs, and when the time is right, and we’re ready, things happen. He’s such a personal God. And I love that the most about him.
Have a great day. I’m blowing you a kiss.
December 17, 2006 at 3:46 pm
DJ:
There there now, Johnny-Reb,I thought you Texicans were made out of tougher stuff than that. I thought it was just me gettin teary!
Have a great day!
Jake
December 17, 2006 at 3:59 pm
Re: Big Jake # 923: Aw, shucks, pilgrim! Y’all know us Texans git all teary eyed on occasion: births, deaths, daughter’s marriage, beautiful sunsets, gittin’ kicked by horse…
I’m a very atypical male. I can’t stand watching sports of any kind, love to cook, and am no stranger to house cleaning. Paula and I go through role reversal all the time. She does more “guy” stuff (forgetting our anniversary, my birthday, etc) and I do more “gal” stuff (picky about clothes on the floor, loading the dishwasher, etc) than most fellows. One of my friends commented in the past that I was going to make someone a good wife. I took it as a compliment… sort of. But my past did make me a very good husband. Sorry, ladies. Y’all just didn’t know what you passed up when you opted for the guy with the smooth lines and nice car.
December 17, 2006 at 8:25 pm
Zach:
How are you doing,Bud?
Thought you would like this.
CONSTITUTION of THE PAWNEE NATION of OKLAHOMA
(Revised by Referendum vote on July 4, 1998 and as Amended on January 4, 2003)
TABLE OF CONTENTS
PREAMBLE
ARTICLE I – NAME
ARTICLE II – PURPOSE
ARTICLE III – MEMBERSHIP OF TRIBE
ARTICLE IV -PAWNEE BUSINESS COUNCIL
ARTICLE V -DUTIES OF OFFICERS
ARTICLE VI -VACANCIES
ARTICLE VII -FORFEITURE, RECALL, REMOVAL
ARTICLE VIII -NASHARO COUNCIL
ARTICLE IX -BILL OF RIGHTS
ARTICLE X -AMENDMENTS
ARTICLE XI -PLACE OF MEETINGS
ARTICLE XII -ADOPTION
ARTICLE XIII -SAVINGS CLAUSE
ARTICLE XIV – SEVERABILITY
PREAMBLE
We, the members of the four confederated bands of Indians, namely, Chaui, Kitkehahki, Pitahawirata and Skidi which now constitute the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma, with faith in the purposes of our Supreme Being, with abounding pride in our cultural heritage and the determination to promote through marshaled efforts our social, economical and political advancement, do solemnly ordain and establish this Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma and adopt this constitution pursuant to the Oklahoma Indian Welfare Act of June 26, 1936 (49 Stat. 1967) which shall supersede the constitution approved by the Secretary of the Interior on November 26, 1937, and ratified on January 6, 1938, as amended.
ARTICLE I-NAME
The name of this organization shall be the “Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma.”
ARTICLE II-PURPOSE
Section 1. To secure for the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma and its members rights, powers, privileges, and benefits of a sovereign nation.
Section 2. To establish its Jurisdiction and Powers.
The governmental powers of the Pawnee Business Council, acting for the sovereign Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma shall extend to all persons and to all real and personal property including lands and other natural resources, and to all waters and air space, within the Indian Country over which the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma has jurisdiction. The governmental powers of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma shall also extend outside the exterior boundaries of Indian Country to any persons or properties which are, or may be included within the jurisdiction of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma.
The Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma is empowered to maintain under any laws of the U.S. and/or Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma’s law and order, and judicial systems to protect the peace, safety, health, and welfare of the members of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma, provided the concepts of separation of powers is maintained.
The Constitution is the supreme law of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma and all persons subject to its jurisdiction. The Pawnee Business Council shall exercise its power consistent with the provisions of this Constitution and the Corporate Charter of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma
ARTICLE III-MEMBERSHIP OF TRIBE
Section 1. The current membership of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma shall consist of:
All persons enrolled or entitled to be enrolled on the official annuity (baseroll of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma as of February 19, 1937; and
All children born of a lawful marriage between members of the Tribe since the date of said roll;
All children of one-quarter (1/4) or more Pawnee Indian blood born on or after February 9, 1938, of a lawful marriage of an enrolled member.
Section 2. The future membership of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma, after the adoption of this Constitution, shall include any individual who applies for membership and possesses at least one-eighth (1/8) degree Pawnee Indian Blood, as amended on January 4, 2003 on Amendment Number 1.
Section 3. The Pawnee Business Council shall have power to prescribe rules and regulations covering future membership of the Pawnee Nation, including the approval and loss of membership, provided:
Such rules and regulations shall be subject to the review of the Nasharo Council;
A person shall not eligible for membership, if enrolled as a member of another Indian Tribe.
ARTICLE IV- Pawnee Business Council
Section 1. The supreme governing body of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma shall be the Pawnee Business Council, which shall consist of eight (8) members.
Section 2. Subject to the limitations imposed by this Constitution and applicable Federal law, the Pawnee Business Council shall exercise all the inherent, statutory, and treaty powers of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma by the enactment of legislation, the transaction of business, and by otherwise speaking or acting on behalf of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma on all matters which the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma is empowered to act, including the authority to hire legal counsel to represent the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma.
Section 3. All acts regarding Membership or Claims or Treaty Rights of the Pawnee Business Council shall be subject to review by the Nasharo Council in accordance with this Constitution.
Section 4. The present Pawnee Business Council members shall serve until the next regular election or until their successors are elected and installed provided:
The Pawnee Business Council shall provide an election commission to conduct all elections, provided that regular elections be held on the first Saturday in May of each odd numbered year.
No member of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma, eighteen (18) years of age or older, shall be denied the right to vote by secret ballot, either in person or by absentee ballot, provided that no write-in votes shall be allowed.
Members of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma, twenty-five (25) years of age or older, shall be eligible for election to the Pawnee Business Council. Members of the Pawnee Nation convicted of a felony or dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces of the United States of America are ineligible for candidacy.
At the first regular election after the adoption of this Constitution, the President, Treasurer, and the First and Second Council Members shall be elected to a four year term and the Vice-President, Secretary, and Third and Fourth Council Members shall be elected to a two-year term in order to stagger the terms of office:
Candidates shall declare the position they seeking.
If there are positions which are vacant due to lack of candidates, those positions shall be considered vacant and filled according to Article VI.
Thereafter, all members of the Pawnee Business Council shall be elected to a four-year term of office and shall serve until their successors shall be duly installed in office. In cases when a vacancy is being filled to complete an un-expired term due to death, resignation, forfeiture, or recall of a Pawnee Business Council member, a successor will be appointed pursuant to Article VI of this Constitution.
A Nasharo Council member shall resign his/her position if elected or appointed to the Pawnee Business Council.
A Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma employee shall resign his/her position if elected or appointed to the Pawnee Business Council.
A Pawnee Business Council member shall not be eligible for employment by the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma.
Elected members of the Pawnee Business Council shall be inaugurated and sworn into office fourteen (14) calendar days after the election day.
Pawnee Business Council records and all related documentation for each outgoing Pawnee Business Council member shall be made available to the newly elected Pawnee Business Council members. Failure to comply shall result in ineligibility to file for candidacy for the Pawnee Business Council for ten (10) years or until records and documents are returned.
Section 5. All acts of the Pawnee Business Council shall be determined by a majority vote of the membership present, provided five (5) members of the Council shall constitute a quorum to transact business. In the event of a tie, the chairperson or chairperson pro tem shall cast the deciding vote.
Section 6. Regular quarterly meetings of the Pawnee Business Council shall be held on the first Saturday in February, June, August and November of each year in a place designated by the Pawnee Business Council, provided:
Special meetings may be called by the President.
Special meetings shall be called by the President within two (2) weeks after receiving a written request, by regular mail or by certified and return receipt mail, from a majority of the occupied Pawnee Business Council positions, provided:
If the President fails to call and conduct a special meeting as requested within two (2) weeks, a majority of the occupied members of the Pawnee Business Council shall be authorized to call and conduct a special meeting by affixing thief signatures to a document listing in detail the need for the meeting and citing this Section of the Constitution as their authority to meet.
A minimum of two (2) days notice of all meetings, regular or special, shall be published in a newspaper and posted in public view. Provided, that in an emergency, posting in public view for two (2) days shall be deemed sufficient notice. Notice shall include the agenda.
Section 7. All members of the Pawnee Business Council shall attend tribal constitution orientation classes as prescribed by the Pawnee Business Council.
ARTICLE V-DUTIES OF OFFICERS
Section 1. The President shall preside at all meetings of the Pawnee Business Council, joint meetings of the Pawnee Business Council and the Nasharo Council, and all general meetings and shall vote only in the case of a tie. The President shall have general supervision of the affairs of the Pawnee Business Council and shall perform all duties pertaining to the office of the President. The President shall administer oaths and affirmations when required or permitted. The President shall be bonded.
Section 2. In the absence of the President, the Vice-President shall perform the duties of that office. In the case of vacancy, the Vice-President shall succeed at once to the office of the President. The Vice-President shall be bonded.
Section 3. The Secretary shall, be responsible for the following duties:
Record the proceedings of all meetings of the Pawnee Business Council and Nasharo Council, and all special meetings as assigned by the Pawnee Business Council.
Prepare the agenda for meetings of the Pawnee Business Council.
Maintain all records and files of the Pawnee Business Council. All records and filed of the Pawnee Business Council, except such records as shall be explicitly made exempt by law, shall be public information to any member of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma.
Maintain the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma official membership roll.
Attest to enactments of the Pawnee Business Council.
In absence of the President and Vice-President, call to order regular and special meetings of the Pawnee Business Council until a Chairman pro tem is selected.
Perform the duties of the Treasurer, in the absence of the Treasurer.
The Secretary shall be bonded.
Section 4. The Treasurer shall, be responsible for the following duties:
Receive funds from all sources for which the Pawnee Business Council is held accountable, and maintain financial records which shall reflect actual receipts and disbursements of all funds and which shall reflect the financial position of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma.
Deposit funds from any and all sources for which the Pawnee Business Council is held accountable in an insured bank or other approved financial institution.
Disburse by check, the funds from any and all funds for which the Pawnee Business Council. All checks shall be signed by the Treasurer and countersigned by the President.
An annual independent audit of all funds for which the Pawnee Business Council is held accountable.
Present financial status reports and budget reports as determined by the Pawnee Business Council.
Perform the duties of Secretary, in the absence of Secretary.
The Treasurer shall be bonded.
ARTICLE VI-VACANCIES
Section 1. Vacancies – In the event of Presidential vacancy, the Vice-President shall immediately succeed to the office of the President. All other vacancies shall be filled by the President giving priority to the pool of candidates from the previous election, subject to the approval of the Pawnee Business Council, provided, that such appointment shall be effective unless formally disapproved by the Pawnee Business Council within thirty (30) days after appointment.
ARTICLE VII-FORFEITURE, RECALL, REMOVAL
Section 1. Forfeiture – If a member of the Pawnee Business Council fails or refuses to attend two (2) regular or special meetings per year from the date of oath of office, unless excused by the Pawnee Business Council President for illness or other causes for which the member cannot be held responsible, his/her office shall be declared forfeited by a resolution of the Pawnee Business Council and the vacancy shall be filled.
Section 2. Recall – Upon receipt of a petition signed by fifty per cent (50%) of the number of voters who voted in the last regular election call for the recall of any member of the Pawnee Business Council, it shall be the duty of the election commission to call and conduct within thirty (30) days and election on such recall. Recall shall be effective only if a majority of those voting shall vote in favor of such recall and that at least 50 per cent (50%) + one (1) of the number voting in the previous election vote in the recall election. Once a member has faced a recall attempt, no further recall action shall be brought against that member until at least twelve (12) months have passed. No member of the Pawnee Business Council shall be subject to recall action within the first six (6) months of that member’s term.
Section 3. Removal of Pawnee Business Council Members – The Nasharo Council shall investigate complaints of misconduct in office of members of the Pawnee Business Council and upon proper showing shall call a joint meeting of the Pawnee Business Council and the Nasharo Council to act upon such complaints. Such joint Council shall have the power, by a majority vote, after giving the accused a hearing, to remove the accused from office; provided, a quorum from each of the Councils is present.
ARTICLE VIII- Nasharo Council
Section 1. The Nasharo Council shall consist of eight (8) members with a quorum of five (5) to transact business. Each band shall have two (2) representatives on the Nasharo Council selected by the members of the tribal bands, Chaui, Kitkehahki, Pitahawirata and Skidi. The Nasharo Council shall have the right to review all acts of the Pawnee Business Council regarding the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma membership and Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma claims or rights growing out of treaties between the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma and the United States, provided:
Such acts of the Pawnee Business Council shall be valid and valid unless formally disapproved by the Nasharo Council within thirty (30) days after such acts are referred to the latter Council;
Where such are disapproved by the Nasharo Council, the Pawnee Business Council may submit them to a referendum of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma and they shall be valid and effective if approved by a majority vote of the adult members voting in person or by absentee ballot; provided, that, at least fifty (50) of those qualified to vote shall cast ballots in such election.
Section 2. The Bands of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma shall elect their respective representative under rules and regulations prescribed by the Chiefs of each Band. The representatives selected shall serve until the next regular selection of members of the Nasharo Council.
Section 3. Vacancies in the membership of the Nasharo Council shall be filled under rules and regulations prescribed by the Nasharo Council.
Section 4. The Nasharo Council shall have the power to establish its own offices and to designate its own officers, to fix is own meeting days, and to adopt its own rules of procedure; provided a quorum is present to transact business. Records of the proceedings of this body shall be kept.
Section 5. All members of the Nasharo Council shall attend tribal constitution classes as prescribed by the Pawnee Business Council.
ARTICLE IX-BILL OF RIGHTS
Section 1. All members of the Pawnee Nation shall enjoy without hindrance freedom of worship, conscience, speech, press, assembly, and association.
Section 2. The Constitution shall not in any way alter, abridge or otherwise jeopardize the rights and privileges of the Pawnee Nation as citizens of the State of Oklahoma or of the United States. The Indian Civil Rights Acts of 1968 (ICRA) and rights guaranteed under this Act is applicable to the tribal members and other persons within tribal jurisdiction.
Section 3. The individual property rights of any member of the Pawnee Nation shall not be altered, abridged or otherwise affected by the provisions of this Constitution and By-Laws without the consent of such individual member.
ARTICLE X-AMENDMENTS
Amendments to this Constitution may be proposed by a majority vote of the Pawnee Business Council or by a petition signed by at least fifty (50) of the adult members of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma.
This Constitution may be amended by a majority vote of the qualified voters of the Pawnee Nation voting in an election called for that purpose by the Secretary of Interior and conducted pursuant to the rules and regulations of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma. Provided, that, at least fifty (50) of those qualified to vote shall cast ballots in such election. The amendment shall become effective when approved by the Secretary of Interior, so long as such approval is required by Federal law, and ratified by the adult members of the Nation.
ARTICLE XI-PLACE OF MEETINGS
Unless some other location in the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma jurisdiction is designated in the notice, all meetings of the Pawnee Business Council and of the Nasharo Council shall be held at the Pawnee Nation Reserve at Pawnee, Oklahoma.
ARTICLE XII-ADOPTION
This Constitution when approved by the Secretary of Interior, shall be submitted to referendum vote of the adult members of the Nation, and shall become effective if approved by two-thirds vote of the adult members voting in person, provided that at least fifty votes are cast.
ARTICLE XIII-SAVINGS CLAUSE
All enactments of the Nation adopted before the effective date of this Constitution shall continue in effect to the extent to that they are not inconsistent with this constitution.
ARTICLE XIV-SEVERABILITY
If any part of this Constitution is held by the Federal Court to be invalid or contrary to the U.S. Constitution or Federal law, the remainder shall continue to be in full force and effect.
CERTIFICATE OF APPROVAL
I, NANCY JEMISON, Acting Deputy Commissioner of Indian Affairs, by virtue of the authority granted to the Secretary of the Interior by the Oklahoma Indian Welfare Act of June 26, 1936 (49 Stat. 1967) and delegated to me by Secretarial Order No. 3150 as extended by Secretarial Order No. 3177, as amended, do hereby approve the Constitution of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma. This Constitution is effective on the date ratified by the adult members of the Pawnee Tribe of Oklahoma; PROVIDED, that nothing in this approval shall be construed as authorizing any action under this document that would be contrary to Federal law.
NANCY JEMISON
Acting Deputy Commissioner
Of Indian Affairs
Washington, D.C.
Date: April 27, 1998
©Copyright Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma.
P.O. Box 470 Pawnee,Ok 74058
For problems or questions regarding this web contact [webmaster@pawneenation.org]
December 18, 2006 at 5:53 pm
Big Jake, #925, thanks for the info. I think you know more about me than I know about me. I’ve talked to Amy in the past about going to Nebraska with me when the kids are out of school. She’s game.
Met her family Sat. Her two sisters are cute. They’d probably be knockouts if they had on some makeup to enhance their looks. But, we all know that’s evil because it makes us lust. I just learned that’s why they don’t wear it. Because of us horny, lusty, men. (Like that would stop us!) Amy sure looks different without it, but she’s still pretty. Rebecca is 17, and Rachel is 14. Nice looking girls. They won’t look you in the eye if their father is around. They drop their eyes as soon as you talk to them. They don’t make much conversation, either. I don’t have time to tell you everything, but needless to say, I was in the Twilight Zone for a couple of hours. I have the feeling Rachel will break away when she can. She grabbed my arm when no one was looking and when I looked at her she gave me a big smile and told me I had pretty eyes. I smiled at her just as her Dad came in and she froze up like an ice cube. He looked at me normal, but he gave her the killer stare. She probably got beat after we left. He’s a freak. He’s got to know I think so. We stared at each other eye to eye a few times and I refused to look away. I’m so stubborn, I’d still be staring if he wouldn’t have stopped. I told him Amy was a wonderful girl and he didn’t answer. So I spoke up and said, did you hear me, and he said, yes, I heard you. I’m glad you think so. What a jerk. He’s very slappable.
I have some things to do right now but I wanted to thank you for the Pawnee thing. I’ll check back in and fill you in about the weekend. I don’t think I’ll ever go back there unless I have to. It was odd and uncomfortable. I didn’t know how to act. I felt like I was under a microscope.
lovesamerica, you’re sounding better and better all the time. I think I screwed up. Mike’s lucky. I’m happy for you. You’ll probably have a ring or be getting one next year at this time. I’m glad you patched things up with your Dad. You’re a very sweet girl and I’m glad life is going your way. I like you.
Later,
Zach
December 19, 2006 at 12:47 am
Re: Zach # 926. Yep, Amy’s male parental unit has got it bad. I suspect he’s got male/female issues that go back to his childhood. Or, his father was just as extremist as he is and he’s just a chip off the old block(head). Either way, you did the right thing confronting him the way you did. You let him know that Amy has a decent man who will protect her and stand up for her. BRAVO!!!
December 19, 2006 at 1:50 am
Zach:
You handled the situation perfectly. This guy gives me the creeps. I feel sorry for Amy’s sisters. They seem like they are terrorized by
him.
These girls seem like they are starved for affection. Something is definitely not right there. Ask Amy what is going on. She has the inside scoop. Do her sisters get beaten?
I can’t recall if Amy’s mom is still on the scene. If she is ,do you think she is abused?
Zach, you have to remain cool . Handle him the way you handled him today. But ,eyes open! If you suspect abuse, talk with Amy about it ,gather any evidence you can. Keep notes. Be prepared to go to the child welfare people . I think he is beating those kids.
December 20, 2006 at 1:00 am
Re: Big Jake # 928. I don’t think he’s beating the other girls PHYSICALLY, but MENTALLY he’s doing as much or more damage to those poor girls. I think I’d rather take a beating than to have to sit through some religious tirade about sins of the flesh and weak spirit that I’m almost positive he spews every chance he gets. I predict the youngest will do far worse, in her father’s opinion, than Amy ever did. Such oppression usually results in massive rebellion down the line.
BUT… it’s a fine line we walk between being functioning members of society and pious souls. We are human and are easily swayed by temptation, be it drugs, Big Macs, video games, fancy clothes, etc. I regret that I know too many of my fellow human brethren that have little or no self control. I find it puzzling when my friends “marvel” at my self control. Heavens! Just saying no to your self is a lot easier than folks think.
Nay I fear the damage may be done to Amy’s sisters. There is hope. She can always invite her sisters to visit.
December 20, 2006 at 3:32 am
Big Jake, DJ, sorry I haven’t gotten back sooner. We’ve been called out a few times and I’m still trying to get more things done before Christmas.
The time we spent with Amy’s family didn’t pass fast enough. Amy’s mother died when she was little. I think she might’ve been 4 or 5. Viv, her stepmother is a hag. Literally. She’s got a front tooth missing! Yikes. It was freaky. These people arn’t that much older than me. They both look ancient. I’ll be 38 in Feb, her Dad is only 45. He is the most miserable looking person. He does a lot for christianity. Someone meeting him would run from it. He’s short, maybe 5’6″. Scrawny, and has the “prick” look. Maybe it’s just that I think he’s one that he looks like one, but he’s one of those guys that even if I didn’t know Amy, when I saw him, I wouldn’t like him. Never smiles. When we got there, Amy hardly said hello. She introduced us. Me as someone she was seeing. You guys will probably think I’m a jerk when I tell you this, but, I have never told Amy that I loved her. She knows I care a lot about her, I just haven’t said that. I’m waiting until I give her the ring. I have this big speel I want to say to her, and then I’m going to tell her I love her, ask her to be my wife, and then slip her the ring. That’s why she introduced me the way she did. She doesn’t know anything about this other stuff. Getting back to her father, he looked at me like I was scum. I gave it back. Every time he gave me his sneery stare, I’d do it right back. They wouldn’t even feed us. They told us they were fasting. They offered us something to drink, and I said coffee. They don’t drink coffee, they drink postum. Coffee must be a sin because it has caffeine I guess. He asked me if Josh had a mother, and I jokingly said, yeah, I didn’t do it by myself. He didn’t laugh. Then I told him what happened and he said he was sorry. Cassie didn’t leave my side. She sat on my lap and he tried to get her to come to him. She would lay her head on my chest and just look at him. I told him she was just bashful, but I’m assuming the “prick” flag when up in her head. She did go outside and throw a ball around with Rebecca and Rachel. Josh wouldn’t go. At one point he leaned over to me and asked what’s wrong with these people. I whispered to him if God didn’t make people like this we wouldn’t have anyone to laugh at. Josh and I chuckeled. Probably not a good thing to say, but that’s what came out. The whole thing was so weird. I don’t think he beats the girls. I think DJ is right. It’s a mental thing. He beat Amy because Viv didn’t like her, and Amy admits she was rebellious. I told you before, he beat her senseless when he found out she was pregnant. I’m telling you, if you saw her back you’d cringe. It reminds me of someone falling on a hot furnace. Amy’s a strong girl to have taken that. I tell Rebecca and Rachel that my parents have a real nice swimming pool in their yard and sometime they should come up and go swimming. They look at their father. He looks at me and says they don’t swim if it’s mixed company. I asked him what he meant. He said boys and girls in his church don’t swim together and that the girls wear dark shirts and pants when they swim. Girls swim in one spot, boys in another. He said it’s highly unlikely they’ll ever visit my parents pool, that their summers are busy doing mission work and serving the Lord. Sounds like they have a great summer. Anyway, we were starving, so I said we needed to get the kids something to eat. I asked if there was a Chinese place close by. He didn’t answer, we all said goodbye and left. When we got in the car Amy told me she about fell over when I asked about the chinese. I said why, and she said the chinese give out fortune cookies and her father would never patronize a chinese place. Fortune cookies are evil. We’re driving along, and Cassie blurts out, I love Aunt Rachel. Next thing I know, Amy has her hands covering her face and she’s bawling. She asks me to pull in to the nearest gas station so she can change her clothes. Then while she’s crying she’s telling me how much she hates those clothes and she wishes she never wouldn’ve worn them, and that her father won again, and she’s going on and on. I finally pull in and she jumps out, grabs her bag and goes in the restroom. She’s gone a good 20 min. Comes out all made up and dressed in her jeans, looking like my Amy again. I asked her if she was alright because I could tell she was upset and the kids were wondering what was wrong. She just said she’s fine now. She didn’t speak for a long time. Every now and then she would look at me and say I’m so glad I have you or please don’t ever leave me. I grabbed her hand (even kissed it) and told her not to worry. We’ve talked a few times about it and she said she gets physically sick when she’s around them. She had a long session with the counselor. I tried calling her (the counselor) but she hasn’t been there and hasn’t called me back yet. Amy has a lot of unresolved issues with this. I don’t know how to handle it. I love her, and it hurts me that she is going through this. She really is a nice girl with a good heart. And she’s so loving. She loves to be loved. She’s just so insecure.
Sorry I spent so much time on this. Any help you two can give me would be appreciated.
Thanks, guys.
December 20, 2006 at 5:51 am
Zach,
You have your hands full. You have to build a life with Amy. She needs a deep ,loving relationship. She feels that no one can love her,that she doesn’t deserve to be loved.
You now know the reason why. Her father is a real freakshow. What denomination did you say he was Nazarene? The following is from the Nazarene website. It sounds almost cult like.
===============================================
Doctrine and beliefs
The Church of the Nazarene remains committed to Christian holiness, although a deeper understanding of John Wesley and their own biblical scholarly research has refined their beliefs without much internal opposition. Nazarene beliefs include the following: one eternal self-existent God manifest in a three-fold nature; the divinity of Jesus; baptism by immersion, sprinkling, or pouring; the Lord’s Supper for all believers; entire sanctification; and the return of Jesus Christ to raise the dead.
The Church of the Nazarene stands in the Arminian tradition of free grace for all and human freedom to choose that grace. The Church distinguishes itself from many other Protestant churches because of its belief that God’s Holy Spirit empowers Christians to be constantly obedient to Him. The Church does not believe that a Christian must sin every day. Rather, the Church does teach that sin should be the rare exception in the life of a Christian. The Church also believes in the doctrine of entire sanctification, which states that a person can have a relationship of entire devotion to God in which they are no longer under the influence of original sin. This means that through the power of the Holy Spirit, people can be changed so as to be able to live a holy life for the glory of God. It is worthy of noting that this is interperted on a variety of different levels as, within any denomination, certain believers interperet the theology more rigidly and others less so. Also, the concept of entire sanctification stems from John Wesley’s concept of spiritual perfection. Both doctrines are usually interpreted in less rigid fashion by most church members, viewing spiritual perfection as something to strive toward, being already sanctified and forgiven for their sins under sacrifice of Christ. Hence, thinking in a circular and very Greek fashion, since one would be forgiven, one would be perfect, however, since Christ was completely human, and one is still entirely alive and living in the world – one would still need to continue striving to live the best, or most “perfect” life possible – since Christ was God and man. And so, the dilemma continues in theological interpretation.
In recent days, some in the denomination have understood the movement’s distinctive theological doctrine — entire sanctification — as best understood in terms of love. Love is the core notion of the various understandings of holiness and sanctification found in the Bible. Christians are called to love when in relation to God and others (Oord and Lodahl, 2005).
The Church of the Nazarene has maintained a strong stance supporting total abstinence from alcohol and any other intoxicant, including cigarettes. Although this continues to be debated, the position remains a firm one in the church. While the church does not consider alcohol itself to be the cause of sin for all people, it recognizes that intoxication is a ‘danger’ to many people, both physically and spiritually. Thus a person who is meant to serve an example to others should avoid the use of them, in order to not cause others to stray from their ‘walk with God,’ as that is considered a sin for both parties.
The Church also defines marriage as between one man and one woman. The Board of General Superintendents of the Church of the Nazarene issued a statement on human sexuality sometime between 2004 and 2006:
Human Sexuality:
The Church of the Nazarene believes that every man or woman should be treated with dignity, grace, and holy love, whatever their sexual orientation. However, we continue to firmly hold the position that the homosexual lifestyle is sinful and is contrary to the Scriptures.
We further wish to reemphasize our call to Nazarenes around the globe to recommit themselves to a life of holiness, characterized by holy love and expressed through the most rigorous and consistent lifestyle of sexual purity. We stand firmly on the belief that the biblical concept of marriage, always between one man and one woman in a committed, lifelong relationship, is the only relationship within which the gift of sexual intimacy is properly expressed.[1]
The official creeds of the denomination are in the form of sixteen “Articles of Faith” found in the current edition of The Manual: Church of the Nazarene.
The strictness of the religion combined with the extreme behavior of Amy’s father explain what you have seen during your visit.
MAy sdvice is to join a church other than this denomination . Get outside this guy’s
orbit. Let Amy develop and strengthen her personality so that she can go with you and confront her father by being herself. She has to feel her own self worth ,be able to stand up
next to you and not feel compelled to cower in front of her father. That will happen after you are engaged ,maybe after you are married.
December 20, 2006 at 1:34 pm
re #931
correction ,the source of this information is From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
December 21, 2006 at 1:13 am
And we think the Islamic faith is restrictive? ALL religions have their extremists and there’s a perfect example from our own backyard.
Zach: My advice is simply to stay clear of them completely, if possible. Let Rebecca and Rachel know that they will always be welcome in your home and forgive Amy’s father’s behavior in the Christian way, but NEVER forget to stand tall and firm if ever in his presence. He is exactly what you say, only I call him a piss-ant bully. He’d be the jerk in gym class or the hard-nose cop in another life.
December 21, 2006 at 11:38 am
I’m baaaack! Did you miss me? I missed all of you, but I wouldn’t have traded these past few days for anything.
My Dad arrived safely Sunday afternoon. When we saw each other at the airport I started wallking toward him and then I just bolted. I was so happy to see him. I was crying and he got all misty-eyed. We went back to my place and dropped off his things and had time for a cup of coffee before heading to Mike’s parents. My Dad loved my apartment. He said it was just like he expected. He had a white Christmas Teddy Bear in his suitcase and when he gave that to me I tried not to cry but I did all over again. It looks so cute sitting in my chair. When he met Mike he shook his hand and then pulled him to him and gave him a hug. He blended right in with Mike’s family. Both father’s got along great. They were joking and laughing like they’d known each other for years. Monday we got up and I drove him around Atlanta, showed him where I worked, ate lunch out, and then Mike and Father Paul came to dinner. Jake, the roast was fabulous! Thank you!! I made a tossed salad and bought a loaf of italian bread to go with it. And, of course, I made that apple pie for my Dad, which he loved. I decorated the table all up with poinsettias. Everything looked so festive. Father Paul is the neatest guy. We got into some great conversations and he didn’t leave until 11:00!! He gave me a hug and winked at me before he left. Tuesday Dad and I shopped around some more, ate lunch out, and then he took me to a very, ritzy place for dinner. We order appetizers, drinks, shrimp cocktail, steaks, it was awesome. Guess what, you might think this is weird, but there was a little band playing, and my Dad even slow danced with me. I was trying so hard not to sob all through that. He told me he was so proud of me and how much he loved me. Jake, I don’t know how grateful I am to you for encouraging me to write that letter. My Dad told me it was the best thing he ever got. I get all teary eyed and tight throated thinking about it. We had so many long talks and I told him a lot of things about the way I felt after he left, and he told me a lot of things I never even knew but wouldn’t have understood when I was younger. He’s such a great man. He likes Mike. He told Mike once kiddingly that he better be good to his baby and that he wants him to trust him to watch over for me while he’s so far away. Mike said, “No problem, sir.” It was cute.
Before my Dad left yesterday, he gave me the special gift he told me about. It was a heart shsped gold locket, and he has Daddy’s Girl engrave on the back of it. He sure knows how to make me cry. I’ll wear it forever.
Love you guys….more to tell but I hve to get ready for work.
Zach…I’m sorry Amy is so sad. I’ll pray for her. DJ, Jake….you’re awesome fathers, too.
December 21, 2006 at 1:48 pm
lovesamerica:
In your wildest dreams,5 months ago, did you honestly ever think you would have been able to write #934 ?
I am so happy for you! And I’m glad you enjoyed the roast. By the way ,if you want to spice up the recipe a little you can add 6 ozs af medium salsa!
I think those Wedding bells are getting louder!
Love,
Jake
December 21, 2006 at 8:08 pm
Big Jake, well, my Mom is starting to turn my wonderful Christmas sour. My Dad just called me and told me my Mom called him and gave him the riot act because he flew down here to see me. She’s furious and she asked him how much money he spent on me and that he better make darn sure he spends just as much money on my sister for Chjristmas as he did on me, and that includes what he spent on the airline ticket. She said this whole thing crushed my sister. I haven’t even talked to my Mom OR my sister in weeks. I never told them about the letter. My Dad said my sister called him while he was gone and my Dad’s wife told her he got a beautiful Chrismas card and letter from me and he flew down to spend a few days. My Dad told me to be prepared, that Mom will probably be calling me about it, and she is really angry. He said he hung up on her because she wouldn’t quit and she also told him he had a lot of nerve doing that before he paid my sister’s tuition for next semester. She said if she didn’t have that in full by the end of next week, she’d take him to court. All this because he came down to see me. My Dad not only pays child support to my Mom, but he pays for my sister’s college. I feel bad, because he paid for mine, too. He pays what’s left after grants, scholarships, etc. It’s still a lot.
I’m feeling pretty down right now and I have to get back to work anyway.
Love ya.
December 21, 2006 at 11:26 pm
Isn’t this a hoot! Just about everyone we know has a parent that’s a real pip. Amy: Sorry your mom is TRYING to ruin things for you. Remember, someone can make you mad ONLY if YOU let them. As they say “Down Under,” Tell your mum to piss off!
December 22, 2006 at 2:47 am
OH, I AM SO PISSED OFF!!! I’ve been watching Glenn Beck on CNN and he’s airing a show on the jihadist propaganda that’s PLAGUING the arab world. MERCIFUL HEAVENS!!! We need to annihilate these extremist vermin before we end up in a world intolerant of anything but their 7th century, narrow minded view of what they think the world should be!!!
Note: DJ has once again had more than his share of adult beverages for one night. HOWEVER, this does not mean he is incorrect in his assessment of world events, simply a little less politically correct (i.e. clear headed) in his voicing of such matters.
So, with that said, D@mn the Muslims to H-E-double hockey sticks!!! Conservative Christians unite!!! Tell the secular progressives to burn in Perdition!!!
December 22, 2006 at 3:31 am
lovesamerica:
Why is your father still paying child support? Isn’t your sister over 18? Unless it is a specific requirement in the divorce decree, he is doing so out of the goodness of his heart.
Is he also paying alimony to your mother?
I think your mother is making trouble and using both you and your sister in a tug of war with your father.Don’t let her get away with it.
Your father did what he did out of love for you in response to your letter to him. You need to do a few things.
1)fill your sister in on what is going on with the caveat that she does not disclose information to your mother.
2)Put Phase II into effect.
a) You are going to write a letter to your mother spelling out everything that you love about her and everything that causes you pain.
b)You will also tell her about your letter to your father and his response,the trip he made to see you and how you feel about him.
c)you will tell her about Mike ,how he may be the one for you and how happy you are now.
d)you will tell her how much you love her and need her to be a part of your life.
e)tell her that both she and your father are responsible for you and your sister being here.
Both she and your father have to grow up and stop being selfish over the situation . It is not about them ,it is about you and your sister ,your happiness.
Tell her that some day,you want your father to walk you down the aisle. It would be nice if she would be there too.
You are inviting them to share in your lives. The choice is theirs.
December 22, 2006 at 3:33 am
lovesamerica:
Amy- you are writing the letter because you will not be able to get a word in edgewise if you tried to tell your mother in person or by phone.
December 22, 2006 at 12:06 pm
Big Jake, you’re too late with your advice. My Mom called me last night and the conversation started with her saying how disappointed in me she was that I didn’t call her and tell her my father was coming AND she demanded to know what the letter said that I wrote to him. She also wanted to know how much my father spent on me while he was here, (out to dinners, out to lunches, ridiculous crap like that) and she wantd to know what he bought me for Christmas. She’s so pathetic, she even wanted to know what I bought HIM for Christmas and how much I spent on him and if her gift from me was equal to what I gave him. She already knew about Mike because I had told my sister, and my Mom’s irritated that Dad met him before she did. I ended up telling her the conversation was going nowhere, that she was driving me nuts and it was no wonder Dad left her…things really got heated after that…she called ME a stupid bitch, so I said Merry Christmas and hung up on her. She tried calling about 5 times after that but I just let it ring. Screw her. I’m here in Atlanta BECAUSE of her. I couldn’t stand living with her and after I graduated college I went to a job fair and that’s how I ended up with this job. Letter to my mother??? Not a chance. I have no desire to spill my heart to my Mom because she would pick it apart word for word and probably end up getting mad at me even more, OR, she would want to see the letter I wrote my Dad so she could compare the two. Everything is a contest with my mother, between her and my Dad, her and me, her and her friends. Who is loved the most, who has the best house, who has the best jewelry, who drives the nicest car, etc. It’s all about her and what she has. It’s no wonder my Dad found someone else. Don’t think poorly of my father, but during one of our talks, he confessed that he was seeing Vicki, (his wife) before he left my Mom. He told me things got so unbearable with hmy mother, and her constant spending and belittling him in front of people that she killed everything. He told me he loved Vicki very much, her husband beat her, wouldn’t keep a job, and the two of them started out talking out of lonliness and eventually fell in love. My Dad IS sorry that my sister and I were victims of my Mom and him, but he said he’s still glad he got away from her and that he thanks God for Vicki.
My DAd wouldn’t have to pay child support if my sister wasn’t in college. I don’t know if it’s state law or their divorce decree, but I know he has to pay after we’re 18 if we continue on to college. It stops if we’re 18 and we get a full time job, or get married, or join the service, but if we go on to school he has to pay. What he DOESN’T have to do is pay for college. So my Mom was just shooting her mouth off when she said she’d take him to court. He is doing that out of the goodness of his heart because he wants my sister and I to have educations. My Dad makes a lot of money, (over 6 figures) but I think being married to my Mom, her spending accumulated a lot of debt for him and he ended up getting stuck with it. He has to pay alimony until my Mom gets remarried or finds a job equal to what she’s used to. At least I think he’s still paying alimony. I’m not sure I understand how that works. I just remember my Mom saying it will be a cold day in Hell before he ever stops paying. Then she’d laugh about it. My Mom had me convinced for a long time that my Dad was a low life scoundrel that cheated on her all the time. My Dad told me Vicki was the only one. I choose to believe him. My Mom always used to say that my Dad didn’t love us (me and my sister) as much as he loved other woman. She also told us we were a burden to him and he hated spending money on us. That’s another reason I always felt so bad. My Mom always told me I had the same ugly puss my father does. My sister and I arn’t real close, either. She’s materialistic just like my Mom, but she’s not as bad. She’s not a virgin, she told me that. She also told me I should be a nun. She always made the crack that they call nuns, nuns, because they don’t get “none”. So there’s a little family history for you. I can’t talk much more because I have to go to work. My Mom’s a real treat. I do love her, and she does have some good qualities, you just have to look like Hell to find them. She’ll do anything for you as long as it doesn’t require much sacrifice on her part. I’m not ANYTHING like my mother. Believe me, she drives me crazy most of the time. She’s spoiled rotten.
I’m Daddy’s girl, and I’m staying that way whether she likes it or not. I told my Dad that when I talked to him on the phone. I’d sever ties with my Mom before I ever would with my father. Quite frankly, I don’t give a crap if she comes to my wedding or not. If Mike met her, he’d probably dump me. This thing with me and my Dad, it just gives her something new to bitch about.
I love you, Jake. You too, DJ. I think you’ve had your share of bitches.
December 22, 2006 at 12:35 pm
Before I forget, I never told my Mom OR my sister that Mike was going to be a Dr. All I told my sister was the he was in college and that he doesn’t have a lot of extra money. I did that on purpose, because they’re the types that that’s all they’d see with Mike…Dr…not person. My Mom would love that fact that I was seeing a Dr. Something for her to boast about. She’ll find out eventually, but for now, I want her to think otherwise. She defines everyone by their job, social standing.etc. (She’d shit if she knew how much bonus I made this month….$4500!)
Talk to you soon
December 22, 2006 at 2:09 pm
lovesamerica:
Sorry, Amy I had a feeling she would sneak in. It is good that you kept it short and sweet so to speak. But that doesn’t change anything. She has to grow up if she wants a relationship with you.
IT IS NO LONGER ABOUT HER. IT IS NOT ABOUT HER FEELINGS ,WANTS ,AND DESIRES. IT IS ABOUT YOU!
YOU ARE THE FOCUS (AND YOUR SISTER). YOU HAVE TO CONVEY TO HER THAT IT IS TIME TO GROW UP.
I think the only way to do this is by letter. You can compose it at will. You can express your feelings and your anger. Put it down ,make changes, get it all out there. Then when YOU are ready,you can send it.
You have the advantage now. Take it. If your mother wants a relationship with you,it has to be on your terms. All mothers want a relationship eith their daughters. And don’t let your mother cause a rift between you and your sister.
Think about it. You are in control now. Time to straighten things out!
Love,
Jake
December 23, 2006 at 12:16 am
Big Jake, not about her…that’s real good. Now if you could just convince her of that. In my mother’s world, which is the only world that matters, she’s number one. I’m not writing her a letter. No matter what I wrote, I’d have to write it in such a kiss ass way that it wouldn’t be real. You’d have to know her to understand. She’s the queen of narcissum. Let me ask you, what mother doesn’t usually sacrifice everything for her children? I bet Carmen does. Most mothers always put their children before themselves. She doesn’t. For crying out loud, she even named us after herself. Her name is Louise. I’m Amelia Louise, my sister is Anita Louise. How queer is that? If she’d had a son she’d probably stuck Louis in there. I never got along with her growing up. We tolerate each other. I tried to kill myself twice. Even the counselor tried to get my mother to change some things but my Mom blames everyone else for everything. If she’s not happy, it’s someone elses fault. My Mom is only 44 and she’s pretty. She knows it, too. She puts my Dad’s wife to shame, and she’s a lot younger than my Mom. Lots of times when we would be shopping, people would think we all were sisters. But men can’t stand her after they know her. She’s a pain in the ass. Selfish, demanding. I was so glad to get away from home. It’s nice being here because I can have contact, or not have contact. I don’t need her. I can make it on my own. I know how to survive. If something big happened, I don’t need a man, or a parent. I will always find a way. I’ve kissed my Mom’s ass for years. If she wants a relationship with me, she can kiss my ass now. Because, quite frankly, I don’t give a shit one way or the other.
December 23, 2006 at 2:14 am
lovesamerica:
Amy- we are saying the same thing. SHE has to come around if SHE wants a relationship with YOU!
YOU have your Dad back and that’s gawing her.
Whn I suggested a letter ,the tone of that letter changed from 939 to 943. YOU are in control -she isn’t anymore.
You are going to have to cool down so you can think rationally and not act emotionally.
That’s what I do in these situations.
Your mother lost half of her power with your father because you wrote that letter and he responded.
Build your life with Mike. Enjoy your Dad. In time your mother will have to respect your feelings as an independent woman. She is the one missing out.
December 23, 2006 at 3:14 am
Big Jake, I’m sorry I get so irritated. I know you mean well and you’re just trying to help me. I don’t know what I’d do without your friendship. You’re right, I do have my Dad back. I have an 800 number at work and so does he, so we made a pact to call each other every day. He told me that I could always count on him no matter what and that he always wanted to be there for me, but he just thought my heart had grown cold toward him. My Mom did a lot of this. She’s very bitter. She wanted us to hate Dad. My Dad said it really deflated her ego when he met someone else and left her. It embarrassed her in front of her friends because she always thought she was “it” and that every man wanted her. I think that’s why I got so mad at Red Dawn a while ago…that “I’m so hot” side of her reminds me of my Mom, although I don’t think Red Dawn is as bad as my Mom. I don’t know, Jake. My Mom’s number has shown up on my caller ID and I haven’t answered it. I don’t need her shit. She and Anita can live together and play their “who can they hose now” games and use men and be all prissy, self-absorbed and bitchy. They’re really just misderable. I’ll stick with my Dad. He’s a cutie and I love the twinkle in his eye. He likes to kid around and joke. He doesn’t put on “airs”. Is that how you spell it…you know what I mean. His job takes him to Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, several times a year. He invited me to with him to Japan in March. He didn’t pay for his ticket to Atlanta. He has over 30,000 frequent flyer miles. My Mom’s an idiot. And I did spend a lot more on him than my Mom…I don’t have enough money to ever please her anyway. Hey, I bought Mike a really sharp leather coat…do you think that’s too much right now? I bought him some other stuff, cologne, a wallet, and I also made up a stocking for him with all kinds of little things in it…
I’m wrapping now. I told Mike I was really tired and just wanted to stay home and relax tonight. I invited him over, but he declined..said he could use the time to brush up on some notes…I really think he’s afraid to be alone with me. I’ve suggested renting a movie and ordering a pizza and that hasn’t happened yet, always an excuse. What’s wrong? Do you know? Or am I just stupid?
Love ya, Jake…I wish I could give you a Christmas present. I’d buy you something really nice…like I did my Dad. I got him a long business coat. It’s really sharp and he looks handsome in it. I let him pick it out while he was here. He’s a nice looking guy…he’s 45 and he goes to the gym and stays fit. He’s cute.
Gotta go…Daddy 2, I love you.
December 23, 2006 at 4:01 am
lovesamerica: Gotta put in my two cents worth. If you’re concerned with what to say and how to say it in a letter to your mom, do a rough draft in a Word doc, cut’n’paste it here, and let Big Jake and I give you constructive advice. Be brutally honest and upfront with what you really want to say, don’t compose something that is influenced by how she made you feel all these years. Tell her the cat’s out of the bag, the wool has been pulled off your eyes, and you see her for what she is. A pitiful, shallow, materialistic child. Now that I think about it, remember Zach’s description of his father? I wonder if they are kin somewhere down the road or just “cut from the same cloth.” Scary thought, huh?
December 23, 2006 at 4:34 am
lovesamerica:
you wrote:
Hey, I bought Mike a really sharp leather coat…do you think that’s too much right now? I bought him some other stuff, cologne, a wallet, and I also made up a stocking for him with all kinds of little things in it…
If he is your guy(and he is!)and you are his girl(and you are!) then it’s OK!
You also wrote:
I told Mike I was really tired and just wanted to stay home and relax tonight. I invited him over, but he declined..said he could use the time to brush up on some notes…I really think he’s afraid to be alone with me. I’ve suggested renting a movie and ordering a pizza and that hasn’t happened yet, always an excuse. What’s wrong? Do you know? Or am I just stupid?
I told you before, Mike doesn’t trust himself alone with you! That is why he begs off each time you invite him over. He sees you as someone really,really special.
Remember his history. He views you as the second chance he (in his own mind )doesn’t deserve. The promise he made to your father to watch over you is a sacred vow to him.
Remember the promise to wait that we talked about?
That will take alot of the pressure off.
You also wrote:
Love ya, Jake…I wish I could give you a Christmas present. I’d buy you something really nice…like I did my Dad.
You already did. You made me very happy in allowing me to help you get your Dad back,
by taking my advice and building up your self confidence . That let you meet and fall in love with Mike. You let me watch your development into a self confident beautiful young lady.
That was my Christmas present from you.,one that I will always cherish.
Love ,
Jake
December 24, 2006 at 2:53 pm
Big Jake, Thank you for being there for me all these months. I did manage to drop about 15 pounds. I’m happy with the way I look now. I wear a size 8/10 now. Not the 4/6 sizes that most of my friends wear. I think I always felt huge because all my friends are so small. When I’m by myself and look in the full length mirror, I don’t think I look that big. Let me stand next to one of them and I feel like an elephant. I’m definitely healthy looking, and I do like to eat. My Dad told me I looked great and he was shocked I cut my hair, but he did say he liked it better. And Mike has told me before that he doesn’t like skinny girls. He prefers a little meat on the bones. He also told he it always irritated him when he took a girl out to dinner and she only ate two or three bites of everything. Like one pea. He does not have that problem with me. Bring it on…rolls, butter, dessert. I love it all.
I talked to my Mom yesterday. She started to say some dirt about my Dad, and I told her to stop it or I’ll hang up. Then she accused me of taking his side. I told her there is NO side. That this war is between you and him and Anita and I are casualties. She reminded me that Dad cheated and ruined the family. I reminded her that in my opinion happy men don’t cheat and their marriage was probably over long before he ever did that. I told her to get over it and get on with her life like the rest of us had. I told her this was a dead horse and I don’t care what happened between her and Dad. I love you both. I told her if she can’t handle me loving my father, enjoying his company, and having a relationship with him, then it’s ALL HER PROBLEM, because it isn’t going to end. Deal with it. She got pretty huffy with me, but since it’s Christmas I don’t think she wanted the call to end on a bad note. She told me we’d pick this up again after the first of the year. I said, NO MOM, WE WON’T. Then I thanked for the gifts she sent me, wished her a Merry Christmas, and hung up. She badgered me about wanting to know what Dad gave me. I only told her about the locket (not the engraving because she’d be pissed if he didn’t do the same thing for Anita and I know he didn’t) and the Christmas Teddy Bear, but he also gave me $500. I didn’t tell her that. She’d probably go hang herself if I told her that so I didn’t. My poor Dad. I think being married to her 10 years must’ve been a real work project for him. She’s tough. Unrelenting. Please don’t get the wrong impression of my father, but he always has said my Mom was the bitch’s bitch. That when she was born, she slapped the Dr. Haha. I hope I don’t have any of than in me.
I’m going to a Christmas Eve party at Mike’s uncle’s house tonight. The whole family gathers there every year. I’ll meet the rest of his family. I bought a new outfit for it. I hope they like me. I’m bringing a crockpot full of red-skinned parsley potatoes. They’re having ham and they asked everyone to bring a dish to pass because there’s so many people there so I told them I’d do that. I’m also making asparagus appetizers. I got the recipe from the cooking channel. Paula Dean. You take asparagus, spray them with butter and wrap them in phylo dough. Bake them, sprinkle with parmesan cheese…they’re awesome.
I’m excited about Christmas. My Dad called me this morning and I talked to him for about 45 min. It’s different now, talking to him. He’s so great. He’s a cool Dad. He sent Mike’s parents a wine basket wishing them a Merry Christmas and a thank you not for having him over for dinner. I thought that was really nice of him. I really love my Dad.
Well, gotta go. I’m excited to see what Mike bought me. He told me he bought me a few things but one he was nervous about giving me. Afraid I won’t like it. I told him IMPOSSIBLE. I love everything.
Zach, Dj, LOVE YOU BOTH.
Angel, I hope you find happiness this Christmas. You’re Mom is spending it with Jesus. You’ll see her again. That’s the wonder of Christmas. Jesus came, Jesus died, conquered death, and we can spend eternity with him. Life doesn’t end, it just changes.
MAY YOU ALL HAVE A WONDERFUL, AND BLESSED CHIRSTMAS.
December 24, 2006 at 4:03 pm
lovesamerica:
Amy- I want to stand up and cheer! You are an awsome woman. You handled your mother’s phone call with maturity,no nonsense common sense and love. Perfect! Never let your father get away from you again. Help your mother to grow up before she becomes a lonly miserable old woman.
Life is what we make it ,isn’t it? You and Mike are going to have a good one. God bless you both.
lovesamerica,Zach,DJ, Angel, Americanwoman-
I want to wish you all a Blessed Christmas!
All my best regards ,
Jake
December 25, 2006 at 12:18 am
All,
A Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to you and yours. May the coming year bless us all with good health, peace, and love.
To you of other faiths, may your holidays be joyful and spent with your families and friends.
To our brothers and sisters in arms that are in harm’s way, please know that our prayers and thoughts are of you. May God watch over you and keep you safe until you can return to your families and loved ones.
December 26, 2006 at 3:23 am
Hello? Anyone in “the lounge?”
(crickets)
December 27, 2006 at 3:01 am
Hey everyone, I hope you all had a nice Christmas. It’s been one of my best. Well, I did it. I’m engaged. I gave Amy her ring Christmas Eve around midnight. She cried. I cried. She was so excited. She hugged me and jumped around. She kept holding her hand up and looking at it. She even called Rhonda that late just to tell her. We had a wonderful night and I haven’t been this happy in years. It makes me feel good to see how happy she is. We were the “item” Christmas day every where we went. Josh and Cassie were happy. Get this, my Dad actually hugged me and he had tears in his eyes. Big Jake, there might be hope for us yet. I don’t know when we’ll be getting married. Probably soon. I like her being here with me. I don’t want her to leave.
Anyway, Happy New Year everyone. 2007 looks good.
December 27, 2006 at 3:18 am
Zach & Amy,
Congratulations and lots of luck!
Best wishes,
Jake
December 27, 2006 at 12:09 pm
Zach:
You wrote:
Get this, my Dad actually hugged me and he had tears in his eyes. Big Jake, there might be hope for us yet.
Sounds like this is your opportunity to get closer to your dad. Refer back to our earlier posts on the subject.
Jake
December 27, 2006 at 1:07 pm
Zach, congratulations!! I’m happy for you and Amy. I’d love to see that ring. It’s too bad you’re not a woman because we’d get more details on the proposal. None of my business, but you had told us you were waiting to tell her you loved her. Just wondering how she handled hearing that and getting a huge diamond all at the same time. I’m nosey. I”m the human version of Nibs.
My Christmas was awesome. Mike got me some great perfume. It’s called Bayberry and it smells wonderful. He also bought me a pretty, black sweater/coat and the gift he was nervous about giving me was a ring. It’s not a diamond engagement ring, but it IS a diamond. Actually it’s several small diamonds on 6 slim bands that are all together. It’s really pretty. The diamonds are scattered at different places on the rings. It reminds me of stars in the sky. It’s very different and I love it. Glittery. I’m like a little kid when I open presents and I threw my arms around him when I opened it. It’s the nicest present any man (other than my father) ever gave me. He’s a neat guy. I think I’ll keep him.
How was everyone else’s Christmas?? I’m looking forward to New Years Eve. We’re going out to dinner with a bunch of friends and Mikes’ brothers and girlfriends. Mike made reservations a few weeks ago at some swanky place that is having a band. We get hats, and noisemakers, champagne. I found a pretty dress last night. It’s silver and slinky. The dress came with a pretty shawl so I bought some body glitter to put on my shoulders. This dress is short so I bought some black and silver spike heels to wear with it. I can’t believe I’m wearing this stuff, but I like to dress up. It should be fun.
God Bless you all…and by the way Big Jake, my Mom called and started again. I told her I wouldn’t talk about it, so she started screaming at me…I said, call back when you calm down and I hung up. Man, she’s a baby. She just doesn’t stop. I’m glad I live here.
December 27, 2006 at 1:51 pm
lovesamerica:
I am glad you had such a nice Christmas. Don’t let your mother spoil it. You handled the situation perfectly. She has to start treating you like the sdult you are.SHE has to grow up,
the sooner ,the better.
Don’t worry ,she will get the message. Just be sure to keep the lines of communication open on your end. It could become very aggrivating.
Love,
Jake
December 28, 2006 at 4:34 am
All,
Our Christmas was nice and quiet. Paula loved the sweatshirt and T-shirt and of course the garnet and diamond bracelet was well received! I have simple tastes and all I wanted was the DVD collection of Alton Brown’s “Good Eats” shows. I got seasons 1 through 6. That’ll keep me busy for a while.
Zach: THRILLED to hear things went well with the presentation. Congratulations! Hope, too, that things will patch up between you and your dad.
Amy: Also thrilled that you and Mike are hitting it off so well. As Big Jake said, stay the course and don’t play ball on your mom’s turf. She’ll either come around eventually or cut off all contact. I’ll be praying for the former option.
And of course, you, Big Jake. I pray that your medical condition is being managed and you’ll continue to be with us all for years to come.
An early wish of a Happy New Year to all. I’ll be busy grilling… uh, I mean visiting… with my daughter and her new beau this weekend, but will try to check in when I can.
December 28, 2006 at 12:13 pm
DJ, I’m so glad you checked in. I saw that Mrs. DJ posted on another category and I almost wrote her a little note letting her know how lucky she is to have such a nice husband. But I’m sure she already knows it.
I’m taking yours and Big Jake’s advice on handling my mother. I’m understanding more and more why my Dad couldn’t stay in the marriage. I’m surprised he lasted the 10 years. She is punishing. Do you think she’s disturbed? I don’t mean that in a joking way, I really wonder if she’s got mental illness. Why does she still hate my Dad so much? They’ve been apart for so long I don’t understand why she hangs on to the anger. She must’ve loved him once. They had two kids. When my Dad and I talked while he was here, I asked him if he was head over heels in love with her when he married her. He said their relationship was always one that he needed to work at. He said when he first met her he thought she was the most beautiful girl he’d ever seen. He said he would’ve done anything for her, and he tried very hard to make her happy, but nothing he did ever seemed to acomplish that. She got caught up in materialism and wanting more and more things all the time. After they got married he said it got so out of hand and when he tried to stop her spending she ended up hating him. He said he took over handling the money and he gave her a credit card with a $2500 limit on it so she could buy whatever she wanted when she was out with her friends and she maxed it out within two months. Then he tried putting her on an allowance and he said that infuriated her and they were constanly fighting about that. He couldn’t take coming home to the constant battling. Then they would go to company parties and she would tell his boss how cheap he was and that he (the boss) wasn’t paying my Dad enough money. He said she was humiliating him and belittling him all the time in front of people. Important people. Business contacts. He got sick of it. He also told me he thought about leaving her several times before he actually did, and he wasn’t sleeping well nights, and he would get up and open the door to our bedrooms and watch us kids sleeping. He said it would kill him inside because he didn’t want to leave us. He said he couldn’t understand how he could have such a good job, healthy kids, a beautiful home and wife, and have it all crumble. He suggested counseling to my Mom and when they went to the first session it ended up in a shouting match between the counselor and my Mom because she felt the counselor was siding with my father. Then she walked out and refused to ever go again. Dad said his life was so miserable with her that everytime a business trip was needed, istead of sending people underneith him, he would go himself just to get away. Then Vicki got hired as an office clerk. He said she had a nice sense of humor and was knowledgable on a lot of subjects and they would have some great conversations. Sometimes they would have lunch in his office and he said he found himself looking forward to seeing her everyday. She was so pleasant and her life was terrible, yet she always put on a smile and was nice to everyone. He didn’t say much more than that, just that Vicki was everything he wanted my Mom to be. He apologized to me over and over again, but he said he was sick of being miserable, lonely, and hated. I know he love me and Anita. I think he really did try. And I do forgive him. I love my Dad so much, and I wish Mom and him could’ve made it work, but I don’t blame him for wanting to have a happy life. That’s what we all want.
I’ve been going on and on. Sorry guys.
Love you
December 28, 2006 at 2:21 pm
lovesamerica:
It’s pretty sad that your mother is this way. Someone who had everything at her fingertips because of material things ,threw it all away. There is something lacking ,something from her past that is haunting her. Something that she is running away from. Add to this the fact that she refused to get the help that could have saved her marriage.
I think she didn’t love your father enough,bottom line. To mouth off to his employer about not paying him enough would have been enough in many companies to put him on the trash heap. Didn’t she think that she could get him fired? Didn’t she care? I don’t think so because that would have given her more ammo to snipe at him.
Did she have a privledged life before she met your dad? I know she was very pretty,but that only goes so far. What was the attraction for him? Leopards do not change their spots.
If it was mental illness ,it would take time to develop.
The one good thing that came out of the marriage that we know of was you. If your sister is anything like you then there were two!
Love ,
Jake
December 29, 2006 at 1:05 pm
Jake, no, my Mom didn’t have a privledged life. She and her sister were spoiled. My grandmother did everything for them. My grandmother was raised having to take care of the house, do all the cooking, and take care of her brothers and sisters. She said she would never make her kids do that, so she did everything they should’ve done. All she did was create a couple of monsters. Both my Mom and my Aunt are divorced. Both of them expect everyone around them to do everything. To this day, my Mom still has a housekeeper. She pays someone to mow the lawn and do the gardening. I think it’s pathetic and a waste of money. We always ate out a lot because she never wanted to cook dinner. I remember my Dad doing a lot of cooking. When we were old enough, my sister and I had to do the dishes and keep the house clean. Mom got a job after my Dad left and she was always “exhausted” when she came home. I think she THOUGHT
December 29, 2006 at 1:33 pm
Jake, don’t know what happened there. I must’ve hit the submit button by accident. Anyway, as I was saying, my Mom was always tired when it came to doing anything. She hired people to come in and do Spring housecleaning, too. It used to irritate me because when I was a teenager I wanted to have some nice clothes, and I always thought she should save that money and spend it on us. Anita and I even told her we would clean for clothes, but, we didn’t do it good enough to suit her. My Mom has a fortune in jewelry. Like I said earlier, she was real cheap with Anita and I and we both got part time jobs when we were old enough so we could buy what we wanted. My Dad was paying her BIG bucks in support and alimony, too. And it all went on her back and vacations with her friends. She’s really selfish. She doesn’t think so. She thinks she’s wonderful. She’s delusional. Anita is sort of like her. She likes money and she won’t marry anyone that can’t give her everything she wants. I asked her one time, “what about love?”, and she said she would love someone with money. She’s been around my Mom and Aunt too long. They think I’m weird. My Mom and I used to fight because she would always try to push me around and when I got older, that just wouldn’t fly. I had saved up a lot of money once, and she was snooping in my bedroom and found my passbook. She accused me of selling drugs. She even had me checked for it. Then she thought my Dad was giving me money that she didn’t know about. She couldn’t believe I could save that much money on a part time job. I told her I don’t buy everything I see, and that’s why I have money and you don’t. There was a real bitch session after that. She told me if I was able to save that much money, then I should start paying room and board. I told her I’d call my own lawyer or go live with my Dad and see who ended up paying whom. When I went to that job fair I was interviewed by different companies and this one, here in Atlanta, didn’t pay the most, but I liked the benefits, and the promotion opportunities. I was scared to leave home, and my Mom told me she would like me to leave because I got on her nerves being there and that the two of us might get along better if I was gone. She said the house was much happier and more peaceful when I was away at college and she would dread it when I would come home for breaks and summers. That really hurt me when she said that, but then I got mad, and said “the Hell with you” to myself. I thought, piss on you, lady, I’ll go and you can kiss my ass. We’ll see who ends up in the best shape. And, so far, it looks like I am. She’s miserable,lives from payday to payday, no savings, is mad because no matter what she does to my Dad he still stays happy, she can’t keep a boyfriend and currently, as far as I know, she doesn’t have any prospects. So, miss beauty queen is going to end up wrinkled and all alone, and her shiney jewlery will end up around someone elses neck. I did ask my Dad what attracted him to her and of course he said her looks in the beginning. He said he knew she was spoiled, but he wanted to spoil her, too. He said they had a lot of fun in the beginning. She liked it when he got the job he has because he made so much money. She thought she could buy anything and she wanted him to buy her what she wanted. He told me his boss and he were good friends, and my Dad is constantly being chased by other companies. I guess he really knows finance and business, and how to save a company money. I don’t know exactly what he does, but he and Vicki have a real nice home. She doesn’t work, and he still pays my Mom and college for my sister and I, so he must be doing good. He gave Anita $500 for Christmas, too. That was another issue with my Mom. She asked me why I didn’t tell her that he gave me that money. I told her I don’t have to tell her anything I don’t want to anymore. It started another fight so I hung up. She’s a piece of work, Jake. I do love her, and I know she loves me, but it’s not the same way my Dad loves. It just isn’t.
I’ve got more to tell you, but I’ve been typing forever and I don’t want to bore you to death.
Love ya.
December 29, 2006 at 1:41 pm
lovesamerica:
Amy:
It’s sad. Your grandmother did her best to be a loving mother. The problem is if you give too much to your kids they become spoiled, too much food-they become fat ,do to much for them-they become lazy. Learn this lesson for your own kids.
Now look what your mother did for you . You are self sufficient, keep a beautiful house, you are an excellent cook,you are a beautiful young lady who will be a loving wife and mother.
Take away all the positives from this situation that you can and be the best that you can be. Being aware of a situation will allow you to avoid the traps your mother fell into.
Keep the door open to your mother but don’t let her infringe on your life.
Love,
Jake
December 29, 2006 at 3:25 pm
Jake, I won’t let her infringe. I talk terrible about her and it makes me feel ashamed. She can be nice. She just has to be in control. I think my Mom has an attitude toward me because I look and act like my Dad. She always used to say that. She slapped me in the face once because during an argument we were having I looked at her a way she said reminded her of my father. She always called Anita the pretty one. And that’s true. Anita is much prettier than me. My Mom and Aunt always used to show Anita’s school pictures to everyone, but they’d never show mine. Mom would talk to people on the phone and she would say nice things about my grades, and then she’d say, “but, you should see Anita, I’m so proud of her.” I’m not saying that so you feel sorry for me, it’s just the truth. And then she always wondered why I was depressed. My Dad was gone. She told us he didn’t love us enough to stay and that Vicki and her kids were his life now, and that he will always love her kids and do more for her kids than us. Vicki treated us like crap. (My Dad said Vicki really isn’t like that, that that was in my imagination, but I REMEMBER how she treated me, and it wasn’t loving. I never felt like she wanted us there.) And my Mom was difficult to live with. I really hated my life back then. And I really don’t know what Mike sees in me, and I’m not counting on it lasting. If it does, I’ll be shocked. He can have anybody, so why would any guy want me? It’s the virgin thing. He’s fascinated with it. If I had sex with him, after he got his fill of it, I’d be history.
You and my Dad are really the only two men I really trust.
December 29, 2006 at 6:01 pm
lovesamerica:
Amy:
You are a wonderful,beautiful,intelligent, loving young lady. Don’t let the hurts of the past trouble you today.
You have your dad back. You have Mike. You have your whole future ahead of you.
you wrote:
And I really don’t know what Mike sees in me, and I’m not counting on it lasting. If it does, I’ll be shocked. He can have anybody, so why would any guy want me? It’s the virgin thing. He’s fascinated with it. If I had sex with him, after he got his fill of it, I’d be history.
Mike is falling in love with you. Who wouldn’t!
He is never going to let you go.
The nicest thing about this forum is that you can go back and re-read the posts. why don’t you do that. You will see your development over the past five months.
Please be kind to yourself. You can talk to your dad about it. He has been hurting for so long. Let him be a dad. He needs that.
And Father Paul is right there. Talk to him.
I will always be here for you as long as it lasts, so will the rest of us.
Love ,
Jake
December 29, 2006 at 7:26 pm
lovesamerica: Good advice from Big Jake. You are a decent person. That is what has attracted Mike to you. Just as after a while some guys get tired of “bad girls,” some don’t really like them to begin with. Mike, for what I can tell from what you’ve shared about his history that he shared with you, is one of those guys that has always been looking for a “good” woman. Tag! You’re it!
I think I recall saying in a previous post to Zach that you have to love yourself before others can love you. From your awesome transformation from an “ugly duckling” to the swan that we “see” now, you are definitely on the right track. Take a deep breath, accept that there might be someone who actually loves/likes you for the person that you are, “warts and all,” and love/like him back! And of course pray often and talk to Father Paul as much as you need. Sounds like he’s an excellent choice for a pre-relationship, as well as pre-nuptual, counsellor. If need be, keep telling yourself you have earned this, you’re worthy of it, and ask God to continue to guide you in the relationship.
You’ve been bitten by love a few times. Who hasn’t? It’s like the adage in the west about “gettin’ back on that horse when it throws ya.” Perhaps the things your mom did (or didn’t do for/to you) formed some things “back in the cobwebs of your pysche” that have carried forth today. “Old tapes” as one of my marital counsellor’s called them. Stop playing/listening to them and listen to your heart instead. AND look at the times your insecurities play on you. Is it late at night before you fall asleep? Downtime at home alone after a round with you mom? You can only be insecure if you let yourself be. Read the Bible, clean the kitchen, fold laundry… do something! Idle hands, and minds, are the devil’s playthings. From the “snapshots” of the growing relationship between you and Mike that you share with us, in my humble opinion, you’re doing just fine. You and Mike have careers to attend to and it seems the balancing act of the relationship and your lives in good shape. Leave it to an “unbalanced” Libra to use the balance analogy!
Just got a call from Rebeca. She got delayed in Houston by weather. She and her beau will be here in an hour. I’ll sign off now and check in a little later. ‘Bye for now…
December 30, 2006 at 12:31 pm
Dj, you’re one of the men I trust, too. I apologize to all of you for my last post. I was really down in the dumps. I still am. You’re right, I need to keep myself busy. Most of my friends are either away with their families or their boyfriends and Mike has been busy preparing for some important clinicals coming up in January, so I’ve been moping around my apartment. I packed away all my Christmas decorations and went out yesterday and decided to buy new curtains to change things a little bit. I bought myself a new bedroom comforter set. I have a big bathroom in my bedroom so I bought all new things for that, too. It looks so pretty. I bought matching candles and it smells wonderful in here. The whole apartment is scented. When I talked to Mike last night I told him I was depressed. He was going to come over, but I told him to keep studying that I was just being a baby, so he told me he’d take me out to breakfast this morning. I said, no, why don’t you come over and I’ll cook you breakfast. So, I got up early and I made some blueberry and banana mffins, sliced up oranges and bananas in a couple of fruit cups, made a big pitcher of OJ, and he’s a big fan of oatmeal, so I’m going to make him that when he gets here. We’re going for a walk afterward and gets some fresh air. I feel happy just knowing he’s coming over. He said we’d spend the day together if I wanted to, but I know he’s got a lot to do and it’s on his mind, so maybe this afternoon I’ll just go shopping again. There’s some great sales going on.
I’m going to see if I can talk to Father Paul, too. Just when I think I have things all together I get these really bad feelings about myself. I think it’s my Mom. She has the ability to make me feel like I’m nothing. My Dad told Anita when he saw her over Christmas that Mike was a pre-med student. I wish I wouldve told him not to say anything about that, but I didn’t. So now my Mom keeps telling me she can’t believe I’m involved with a Dr. and if I blow it she’ll know I’m an idiot. She even had the nerve to ask me how he became interested in me?!! So now, if he ever dumps me, I’ll never hear the end of it. Mike could be a total jerk, beat me, and I could dump him, but because he’s a “Dr.” my Mom would blame me. That’s why I didn’t want her to know. Not to mention, she even asked me if he was good looking and if there weren’t pretty girls in college with him. Like I’m too shot to ever attract him. She makes me feel like shit.
Anyway, I don’t want to talk about it anymore and Mike will be here soon. He does tell me HE thinks I’m beautiful. My Mom must think I’m ugly.
Talk to you soon. Love you all…Big Jake, you’re my sweety. I love you, DJ and Zach, too.
December 30, 2006 at 3:07 pm
lovesamerica:
AMY:
NOW I AM ANGRY!
Is your mother really your mother??? How dare she ask you those questions?!!! She is the reason for your depression. She is the reason for your father leaving.Who does she think she is? I get the impression that she is very disturbed.
Has she ever had a psychological evaluation? I think that it is long overdue.
We have been building you up for the past five months and she goes and fills your head with this crap with a couple of phone calls?
I think you have to have a long talk with your dad to counterbalance this ,and fast! Let him know what you told us she said to you.
Send her a picture of you and Mike all dressed up for New Years Eve. Tell her YOU are having the time of your life ,that Mike thinks you are gorgeous and he keeps telling you so. Tell her that you do not need to hear her approval any more, when you needed it ,all she was concerned with was herself.
Don’t let her screw you out of a happy life with Mike!!!!
We all care so much about you!
Love,
Jake
September 16, 2022 at 2:33 am
December 30, 2006 at 3:55 pm
Re: Big Jake # 968: DITTO!!!
She needs to realize SHE’S part of the problem, not a solution of any type or even a reputable source for advice in a relationship.
Yes, encourage her to seek help, but if what you said your Dad recounted about the shouting match with the marital counsellor, I feel it would be moot. Nothing is her fault and everyone else is wrong. Until she accepts that, she will never change. Kinda like the joke: “How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb?” Answer: “Only one, but the lightbulb has to want to change.”
You may really love your mom, but face the fact that you may have to cut off all contact with her to maintain your self esteem and peace of mind to be with Mike. I know that’s a possibility because that’s the relationship I have with my brother. He thinks I’m an idiot. I could care less. I have my life, he has his. I wish him success and good health and I’ll live my life fine without him. That’s life, sometimes, unfortunately. Live and let live, agree to disagree, and if you can’t move on. You have to choose your battles. If you know you can’t win, don’t enter the fight. Basic self preservasion.
OK, ’nuff said, there. Hope your breakfast with Mike was nice.
December 30, 2006 at 11:20 pm
lovesamerica:
Amy,
You really do have things all together. Parents are our first introduction to society. Good parents ,mentally healthy parents raise and nurture great kids.
Somebody did something right raising you. I have to believe that your mother did show you some love. Unfortunately ,those instances have to compete with the times she causes you pain.
Please stick in there. You are strong. You have Mike. I have seen the tiger in you on several ocasions. Isn’t Mike worth fighting for? He is your guy,right? He thinks you are his girl,we all do.
Talk to your Dad and Father Paul.
We all love you. Please don’t give up.
Love,
Jake
December 31, 2006 at 12:15 am
Big Jake, DJ, you are wonderful friends. My Mom was an okay Mom. I have never felt very loved by her, or until recently, my Dad. Maybe it’s just me. Maybe I misinterpret things. But, I have to tell you, I feel terrific now. After Mike and I had breakfast, we went for a walk. He knew I was feeling down and he wanted me to talk about it. So, I opened up to him. I told him the things my Mom said to me. He said he thought my Dad was a great guy. He said his parents really liked him AND me. He said he couldn’t understand how such a nice guy (my Dad) got stuck with such a “bitch”. He told me he was sorry for saying that, but that’s how he sees her from what I’ve told him. Then, he took my face in his hands, and he looked me right in the eyes and he told me he thought I was beautiful. He said he noticed me long before I bumped into his friend at the club that night. He said both he and his friend commented on the girls at our table, and he said he pointed me out to his friend. (I don’t know if he’s telling me the truth or not, but I’m going to believe him because I need to.) He said I have a good heart, and then, guess what he said?? He told me HE LOVED ME!!! He said he hasn’t stopped thinking about me since that night, and the more he knows me, THE MORE HE FINDS TO LOVE ABOUT ME!!! I started to cry and he just hugged me and told me not to listen to any of the nonsense my mother says. He said she only sees value in material things, and that’s her problem. He also told me that HIS mother told him I was a jewel, and HE better not blow it!! He said WE WILL LAST FOREVER UNLESS I CHOOSE TO DUMP HIM!!! I’m getting all teary eyed just telling you this. Jake, you have told me this all along. How do you know this stuff? How do you know people so well?? I think you and DJ are the smartest guys I know. I told Mike I loved him, too, but I was afraid. He just hugged me and told me I don’t have to be afraid of anything. He’s here to STAY!!! I’m very happy. I also called my Dad after I got home and told him about this. I told him about Mom, and he said he never wanted to talk my Mom down to us kids, but he said she was “a real pain in the ass.” He also told me, that when he talked to Anita, that he told her he never saw me looking so good. He told her I had lost weight, cut my hair, and that I looked beautiful. He said, I bet your mother didn’t tell you that, tho, did she? He told me NOT to let my mother talk down to me like that. He said I’ve earned everything I’m getting and that he couldn’t be more proud. He also asked me if I would mind if HE talked to my Mom and told her to ease up, but I told him no because it would just cause a lot of trouble and we both know she’s a nut anyway. He also, said he would be honored to have Mike for a son-in-law! So, like you said way back when, Jake, my DAD WILL be walking me down the aisle!! He also kiddingly said maybe we should just send my mother pictures of the wedding!! We laughed about that, because she’d hang herself for sure. (Which may not be a bad thing) Just kidding! You know, she’s always said rotten things to me in a sly way. Always getting some dirty dig in there. You’re probably right, she’s disturbed. Well, I’m so happy right now that I don’t care what she says or thinks. I’m going to limit my conversations with her. When she starts saying things to make me feel bad, I’m going to find a reason to hang up. I want to be a happy, positive person. I really do love people and I want to be nice to them. I don’t want to be mean and bitter. I stopped at the church to talk to Father Paul but he wasn’t there. So, I’m going to try again. I’m going to ask him to marry Mike and I someday. AND, I’m also going to ask him if I can do volunteer work for the church a couple of nights a week. I know they have a soup kitchen and I know they do operate a shelter. If they can use my help, that will get me out of the house while Mike is studying and I’ll be doing some good, too. I think Jesus put that on my heart. I’m also going to ask Mike to make the same vow that Carmen asked you to. I want God to bless us, and I think it’s right. I”ve waited this long, and I do think Mike will do it. He told me today I was very special and he feels God brought me to him. You know what I think?? I think he’s a mini-Jake….and I couldn’t be happier!!
Love you
December 31, 2006 at 2:25 am
lovesamerica:
Amy ….just for you…
“What A Difference A Day Makes”
What a difference a day makes
Twenty-four little hours
Brought the sun and the flowers
Where there used to be rain
My yesterday was blue, dear
Today I’m a part of you, dear
My lonely nights are through, dear
Since you said you were mine
What a difference a day makes
There’s a rainbow before me
Skies above can’t be stormy
Since that moment of bliss, that thrilling kiss
It’s heaven when you find romance on your menu
What a difference a day made
And the difference is you
What a difference a day makes
There’s a rainbow before me
Skies above can’t be stormy
Since that moment of bliss, that thrilling kiss
It’s heaven when you find romance on your menu
What a difference a day made
And the difference is you
[ http://www.azlyrics.com ]
You are really beautiful. Really!
Love ,
Jake
Oh by the way, you asked how I know these things?
I’m your guardian angel!
December 31, 2006 at 1:45 pm
Jake, I believe you ARE my guardian angel. You have been such a great friend and wonderful help to me over these past months. I’m indebted to you, and it seems like I’ve done nothing for you. But I will tell you this, I’ll never forget you and I’ll always pray for you every day for as long as I live. You will live in infamy in my heart, and if I ever have a son, I’ve decided to name him after you. I like Jake Louis. You will never be far from a thought or a prayer. I feel very close to you….I always will remember you.
I love the song, and it’s true. One day you can be sad, and the next day the sun shines. Life is funny. But like the movie, it’s a wonderful life. We may not know each other physically, but our spirits know each other. Thank you for being the man and the person you are. You’ve inspired me in so many ways. I’m glad you were born.
I truly love you.
December 31, 2006 at 1:55 pm
Sorry Jake, I meant you will live in infinity in my heart…NOT infamy. I’m in a hurry so I messed up my typing. I’m getting ready for church. Mike is picking me up and then we’re going out afterward with his parents for brunch.
Not to change the subject, but isn’t it great that Suddam got hanged!!! I’m so glad. He was such an evil, evil man, and such a coward. He did horrible things to people. I wonder what he was thinking when they tied that rope around his neck. They were too nice, they should’ve stuck him head first into a wood chipper like he did to so many people. I’m sure he’s getting his just reward right now….HE’S the one that will live in infamy!!!!
December 31, 2006 at 10:25 pm
Hi Green Eyes,
How was brunch? We just got back from shopping for my daughter’s good china set.This china pattern stuff is definitely not my bag!
I’m so glad that you are feeling better about yourself and that Mike is there for you .
December 31, 2006 at 10:56 pm
Hi Green Eyes,
How was brunch? We just got back from shopping for my daughter’s good china set.This china pattern stuff is definitely not my bag!
I’m so glad that you are feeling better about yourself and that Mike is there for you . That’s really what it’s all about, isn’t it?
He really loves you .Now you really know it!
You wrote that you are going to volunteer at the Church;s soup kitchen. I did that at St. Agnes R.C.Church in Manhattan in conjunction with volunteer work I was doing with the Coalition for the Homeless. You will find it to be some of the most rewarding volunteer work you will ever do. You get more out of it ,in my opinion when you see the faces of the people you are helping . It is truly a soul enriching experience.
Father Paul will be so happy to have you working with him.
Your Dad really had a great Christmas thanks to you. He has every right to be proud!
As for me ,I am honored that you want to name your son after me when the time comes. I am truly touched but don’t you think that that you should discuss it first with Mike? Usually ,it is customary to name the first born son after your husband’s father in Italian American families. That’s why there are so many Franks,Josephs ,Vincents and Anthonys . In my Uncle Frank’s family there are 4 Franks My Uncle,his son Frank Jr., and 2 grandsons. It can get kind of crazy .
Anyway ,I wanted to wish you and Mike a very Happy New Year! Enjoy your New Years Eve Party and remember -Careful on the road!
Love,
Jake
December 31, 2006 at 11:02 pm
DJ,Zach,Angel,Red Dawn & American Woman,
I want to wish you all a happy and healthy
New Year!
God Bless all of you!
Best Wishes,
Jake
January 2, 2007 at 5:12 pm
I check out the recent posts when I get on the site. Have y’all read Francis Eddie’s post on the jihadist movement? Nice post!
January 4, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Its been kind of quiet here the past couple of days. I guess some of us have moved on .
I’ll be checking in from time to time but in the event that this is “Happy Trails” I wish you all my best.
Big Jake
“Happy Trails” by Dale Evans Rogers
Happy trails to you, until we meet again.
Happy trails to you, keep smilin’ until then.
Who cares about the clouds when we’re together?
Just sing a song and bring the sunny weather.
Happy trails to you, ’till we meet again.
Some trails are happy ones,
Others are blue.
It’s the way you ride the trail that counts,
Here’s a happy one for you.
Happy trails to you, until we meet again.
Happy trails to you, keep smilin’ until then.
Who cares about the clouds when we’re together?
Just sing a song and bring the sunny weather.
Happy trails to you, ’till we meet again.
January 4, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Big Jake, one of my New Years resolutions was to try to handle things more on my own. I was getting very dependent on you, and I feel I need to let go, because someday I’ll try to get on here, and won’t be able to.
You are very dear to me. I’m so grateful for all the advice you’ve given me, and for being a wonderful friend. You’ve helped me a lot.
I’m studying my Bible, and I want to be a godly woman. I want to help our world, and raise children that honor God. When I die, I want to believe I’ve made a difference in some way in this world.
I’ve chosen to forgive everyone that’s ever hurt me. My Mom, my Dad, friends, everyone. I’m starting fresh. I want people to see Jesus in me. He’s given me so much and I’m so very grateful.
This isn’t goodbye. I’ll be checking in from time to time too.
I really hope in my heart that your wife and children know what a JEWEL they have in you.
I’ve said if before, and I mean it from the bottom of my heart……I’LL NEVER FORGET YOU.
Love, Amy
January 4, 2007 at 8:59 pm
Big Jake, I’m a big fan of the CSI’s on TV. I love CSI Miami, but I really like the Thursday Las Vegas episodes. Anyway, before I forget, I wanted to tell you that whenever I see Grisham, on CSI Vegas….that’s how I’ve always pictured you. I see Grisham, I think of you.
Just wanted to share that with you…
I’ll be watching it tonight…thinking of you.
Love ya.
January 4, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Hi everyone. Happy New Year. I’ve been very busy and haven’t been able to find the time to write, but Jake, the Happy Trails, I ain’t leaving yet, pardner!
Amy and I met with my lawyer and she will be signing our pre-nup tomorrow. She is awesome about this. Agrees to everything. We also talked to the lawyer about me adopting Cassie. Her father has to be contacted before we can go ahead with that, but the lawyer doesn’t seem to think there will be a problem. They can trace him because Amy remembers the company he worked for so he’s going to contact them for work records, social security number, etc. He said that usually guys like him will sign off paternity, because if they don’t, they have to pay back child support, and then start monthly payments and this guy has never paid a dime. I hope he doesn’t give us any grief. As far as I’m concerned, she already my daughter.
We’re getting married Feb 17. Valentine’s week. Just a small ceremony. Amy doesn’t want a big wedding, but we’re renting a hall and will be having a reception.
Her father wants nothing to do with us. He told Amy she should keep Cassie away from me because he thought it was weird the way she kept hanging on me. He thinks something is going on. That CREEP. I’d like to drive down there and do what my Pawnee ancestors would do. If I only had the chance.
Hope you all had a nice New Year. We did. I’m excited about this year. Getting married. Amy’s fixing the house all up “her” way. It’s looking really good. It’s amazing what a woman can do to a house. I told her to buy whatever she wants and fix it anyway she wants. She’s changing curtains, painting rooms. We’re shopping for furniture now, too. She’s like a little kid. So happy. I enjoy wathcing her. She’s alot like lovesamerica. She’s a neat freak and she’s got candles burning constantly. I like it.
Later,
Zach
January 5, 2007 at 3:16 am
What Zach said. I’ll be checking in. As I said above, I look for recent posts in the other subjects, too, and then pop in here. If I see a familiar name commenting (here or on another subject) I check that out. So, I’ll be in the “neighborhood.” I’ll be the one pushing the rusty shopping cart full of junk talking to himself.
January 5, 2007 at 11:32 am
Zach :
GREAT NEWS! CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU AND AMY!
As for your father-in-law to be, creep is too kind a discription. This guy is a real sicko.
lovesamerica:
Glad you are still checking in! I know you want to be self reliant , just remember that we all are here if you need us.
We all love you!
DJ
Give me back my shopping cart! I need something to push when I am mumbling to myself!
January 5, 2007 at 10:08 pm
Hi all,
Happy New Year! I’ve been checking in a couple times, but holidays are very, very busy. Zach, I am very happy for you and Amy. I don’t know what to say about her father … other than it explains a lot and I think I’d keep my distance from them. Sometimes we can love a family member out of respect and hope for them, but we can’t change them and keeping them involved in our day-to-day invites is like drinking slow poison.
Europe was great but I missed my kids. I love America!
January 6, 2007 at 2:24 am
Americanwoman, glad to see you haven’t forgotten us. There’s no place like America.
Big Jake, Amy’s father is a case study. I’m starting to stew about his implications toward me about Cassie. Like I’m some kind of freak. He’s got a daughter that looks like Amy and he thinks I’d go after a 4 year old. He’s a frickin child beater and he implies my relationship with Cassie could be something perverted. I have trouble handling crap like this. I’ve been thinking about it all day and it’s eating at me. I know Amy misses not having a normal family, but I don’t think it’s possible with this guy. She thinks she can change things with them. I think she’s naiive. Under the right circumstances, I could pop her father and it wouldn’t bother me a bit. I can only be understanding for so long. If I ever see him again I don’t think I could last very long without confronting him about what he meant by that. It really pisses me off.
Anyway, the pre-nup is signed. Amy’s working tonight and I’m watching the Sabres with my son. I told Amy she could quit working after we got married if she wanted to. She might. She said she’d maybe just work a couple days a week because she likes it and she enjoys people. Whatever she wants is fine with me, but I have to admit that I am selfish. I like having my woman home.
Zach
January 6, 2007 at 3:54 am
Zach:
There is more to this story than what we see at the moment. The more I hear about this phony ,the more creeped out I get.
Please be careful!
What was Amy’s reaction to her father’s comments? We know that he beat Amy. She is an adult. What does she think about him? Does he mistreat Amy’s sisters? What does the therapist say about it? Did she show the therapist her back?
You have committed to Amy. Do you know all there is to know?
How does she feel about her father’s rejection of the relationship? Deep down ,how does she feel? You are her choice for life. Can she walk away from her relationship with her father? For her own sanity(and yours)she will have to.
Discuss this matter with the therapist in a joint session.
You wrote:
I know Amy misses not having a normal family, but I don’t think it’s possible with this guy. She thinks she can change things with them. I think she’s naiive. Under the right circumstances, I could pop her father and it wouldn’t bother me a bit. I can only be understanding for so long. If I ever see him again I don’t think I could last very long without confronting him about what he meant by that. It really pisses me off.
If you pop him, you play into his hands. He becomes the victim. He gets I told you so bragging rights with Amy. He will destroy your relationship ,gleefully.
This guy is sick and Amy has to realize it.
Beating him up is not the answer. Threatening to disclose his child abuse to the media,to his congregation, to the police,taking legal action if he slanders you,informing child welfare authorities about him- that’s the way to go. It would be great if HE took a swing at you in front of witnesses and YOU had him arrested for assault. That’s the way to handle him.
Keep cool! Don’t let him get to you. Work with the therapist!
January 6, 2007 at 10:20 am
Jake, I’m not going to beat him up. I’d like to, but I’m not a kid anymore. i still have a temper, but I’ve mellowed. Comments like that are so sick that when it’s directed toward you, it just gives you a rise. I’m not saying I couldn’t get physical, but that would be my last resort. I’d protect Amy from him and Cassie if needed. He’ll never lay a hand on either one of them as long as I’m around. That guy’s got to know I’d kick his ass. I’m twice his size. He’s a real idiot if he thinks I wouldn’t.
Amy has told the therapist about her father beating her. I don’t think she’s shown her her back. I’m not sure if she would. She’s very self consious about it. It’s very scarred. I don’t think she’d ever press charges, either, just from things she’s said. When you start talking about it, she gets teary, clams up and acts funny. It’s very painful for her. I think she likes putting it out of her mind. She knows I would never do anything to hurt Cassie OR her. She said her father sees evil in everything except himself. She personally doesn’t believe he beats her sisters. She doesn’t think her step-mother would let him even if he wanted to. She got beat because there was no one there to protect her. Her mom was dead, and her step-mother resented her. She said her mom was real nice to her and she thinks things would’ve been different had she lived. Her step-mom is scary. She’s fat and I told you one of her front teeth is missing. Did you ever try talking to someone like that? You try not to look at it, but you can’t help it. The one that’s left is pointed and rotten. I always refer to her when I’m talking to Amy as fang-woman. Amy laughs. She should get that fixed because it looks real bad. I guess because my Dad is a dentist and he’s always taken good care of our teeth that I notice stuff like that. My sister and I have great looking teeth. My Dad made sure of that. They’re perfect. I’ve had mine bleached a couple of times. I’m lucky because I get all the dental work for free. Too bad my Dad couldn’t help her. Not really. These people would really freak him out. They live like it’s a sin to have anything and enjoy life. They have a TV but no cable. They just use the TV to watch tapes. I have music on all the time at my house, they don’t believe in that either. Especially rock and country. Amy said she defended me when he said that. She said Cassie loves me like a father and I’d never do anything to hurt her. He just said he was cautioning her because he noticed Cassie following me around and would always sit on my lap instead of hers. I think Cassie likes me to pick her up because I’m tall and I don’t get tired of carrying her. Amy only weighs 97 pounds and Cassie is hard for her to hold for a long period of time. Cassie is also a very affectionate child. Amy is very affectionate with her, and Cassie is used to hugging and telling people she loves them. She’s a sweet little girl. When I first met Amy and saw her with Cassie, she was always telling Cassie she loved her and was always hugging her and holding her hand. Amy fusses over her, braids her hair,puts ribbons in it and keeps her clean and dressed real cute. She’s taught her manners. Cassie always says please and thank you and isn’t spoiled at all. Amy’s a good mom. The child is just used to affection. I’m not going to push her away when she wants to hug me or when she wants me to pick her up. If that guy thinks that’s weird, it’s because HE’S weird. He’s probably just jealous because Cassie wouldn’t come to him. She kissed him good-bye only when I was holding her. She wouldn’t go to him on her own. She can probably sense he’s the enemy.
I am going to take your advice and talk to the therapist with Amy. Amy is doing remarkable now. She’s so happy and so positive. She doesn’t cry anymore. She is so loveable. She wants to be next to me all the time. I hope that never changes. I know women like romance so I’m going to try to always make her feel special. I really love her. More than I thought. We’re going to start looking for a church. Not the Nazarene. Her father’s church is an offshoot of that. I don’t want a church like that. Amy wants to go to church. A church that teaches the gospel but still allows you to enjoy life. We’re supposed to enjoy it, right? I don’t see anything wrong with makeup or jeans, or music or Tv. You use disgression with your choices. Even Jesus hung out with sinners.
Gotta go
January 7, 2007 at 1:41 am
Zach,
Amy’s dad is a sick, sick man. Your intentions toward Cassie are fatherly and we know that. She can use a good role model in her life. Amy’s father is probably worried that a rational, loving man will intervene and save his daughter and grand-daughter. As much as I cannot stand Rosie O’Donnell (and I’m no fan of “the Donald’s” either), I can see some similarity between the extreme, extreme right religious fanatics in this country and moderate to extreme Islamists. I thank God for men like my husband, Zach, BJ, DJ, and Eagle.
January 7, 2007 at 3:03 am
DUH!!! I’ve been saying that all along! Extremism is extremism. Fanatics are fanatics. Intolerance is intolerance. Coincidentally, there was an episode of “Numbers” on CBS on Friday night. It was about a case involving a polygamist cult leader. A very chilling portrayal of what could be true. Watch for it on the repeats later this year.
Zach, let the sleeping dog lie, work with the counsellor to get Amy to understand that her father is “gone,” and enjoy your lives together and guide your blended family on the path to God and His glory.
The fact that Amy’s “male parental unit” does not recognize any path to God other than his own is sad and irreversable. In time Amy might realize this. She may not. But she needs to understand that what happened was NOT her fault and she can do little to nothing to change things. Tell her a crusty ol’ Air Force Chief Master Sergeant from Texas said for her to “Git up, dust yer seff off an’ git back on thet horse!” We have two choices in life: live or let life pass us by. She’s been given a second chance. Tell her to look to the future instead of examining the past.
There was a silly movie years back about a group of car enthusiasts (read nutcases) that would have a coast to coast race ocasionally. It was named “Gumball Rally.” One of the characters was an Italian who drove a Ferrari or Lamborghini. When the race started he reached up, broke off the rearview mirror, and threw it in the backseat. His riding partner asked him why he did that. The driver cooly replied, “What is behind me… is of no concern.”
Life is a balance (there’s that word again!) of learning from our mistakes and being prepared for the future. In my Air Force career field we have a saying: “If you fail to prepare, prepare to fail.” If we fail to learn form our mistakes, we are doomed to repeat them.
Zach, you’ve got a good head on your shoulders. You may have to do the thinking for you and Amy for a while in matters regarding her dad. Follow your gut instincts and let God and the counsellor guide you when you have doubts.
Americanwoman: Nice to hear from you! I hope you and yours had an enjoyable Christmas and New Year’s break.
Big Jake: I forgot to respond to your comment at the end of #984: No! This is MY shopping cart! I stole it from the Wal-Mart fair ‘n’ square! Git yer own!
And last, but not least, our little swan, lovesamerica, the “other Amy,” or “Green Eyes,” as Big Jake calls her. Sounds like you and Mike had a nice holiday, too. I’m very happy for the both of you. Stay calm, keep taking deep breaths, and ENJOY YOUR REALTIONSHIP WITH MIKE!!! You’ve earned it, you deserve it, and you DO NOT have to let your mother share it, no matter how much you’d like to. It’s YOUR life, not hers. She had a chance at happiness, but let it get away. DON’T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE! I have confidence in you that you won’t.
OK, enough rambling for a while. Who wants the soapbox next?
January 7, 2007 at 4:48 am
DJ:
My deepest apologies! My shopping cart is from the A&P ! It has a bad front wheel. When you push it you go around in circles. Perfect for taking a mumbling stroll!
Jake
January 7, 2007 at 2:21 pm
You guys are a great support group. You may find this hard to believe, but I’m quiet and don’t share much about my personal life with people. No one knows about Amy other than probably Rhonda and the therapist. I’ve told my sister because I totally trust her.
I asked Amy last night if she showed her back to the therapist and she said no. She doesn’t want to. I encouraged her to, just so the therapist could see how brutal her father was. Her back looks like someone dragged a grass rake all over it. It’s still very pink, and some of the “stripes” are thick and deep. It must’ve hurt like hell. She’s such a small person I’m surprised it didn’t kill her. She told me she got most of it when she told her Dad she was pregnant and wouldn’t tell him who the father was. He punched her in the face, also. She said her nose bled, but it didn’t leave much of a mark. Two weeks later he made her get up in front of the congregation and tell them about her condition and beg for their forgiveness. DJ, you said to let sleeping dogs lie. This is hard for me. I get a rage inside about the way he brutalized her and he doesn’t seem to have any remorse about it. He’s smug, and I’d like to punch the smug out of him. These are just feelings I get, I’m not going to do it and get myself in trouble. If I thought I could get away with it, like before, I’d drive down today. I think if I go with Amy to therapist I can probably talk her into showing her back to her. I want her to see it. Maybe something legal can be done. I want him to pay.
Amy has got a good heart. She does love the Lord, and knows the scriptures. She also is still tormented with feelings that some of this is her fault. She says from time to time that if she just would’ve done the right thing this never would’ve happened. I try to tell her that her teenage pregnancy happens to thousands of girls everyday, and their fathers don’t beat them to a pulp because of it. She’ll nod her head, and agree, but she still has to come to grips with her feelings of guilt. She is a very special girl. I know that. And I’m going to try to make her life as good as I can.
We’re going to church today. I’m picking her and Cassie up around 10:30. We picked a Methodist church to check out first. One of my friends at work goes there, and he’s terrific guy. He helped me a lot when I first accepted Christ. I know I still have a lot of kinks to work out. I’m not perfect at all and I need a lot of improvement, but I have to start somewhere.
Thanks for all of you being here as long as you have and helping deal with all my stuff.
Zach.
January 7, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Zach :
You wrote:
” She also is still tormented with feelings that some of this is her fault. She says from time to time that if she just would’ve done the right thing this never would’ve happened. I try to tell her that her teenage pregnancy happens to thousands of girls everyday, and their fathers don’t beat them to a pulp because of it. She’ll nod her head, and agree, but she still has to come to grips with her feelings of guilt”.
When Amy feels “guilty” and that all this is her fault, just point to Cassie and tell her that God wouldn’t have sent her this little angel if she was such a bad person. Things happen in life . We have to accept them and make the best of it.
Funny ,when you think of it , all the tragedy that you and Amy have gone through in your lives has brought you together now for such a good purpose.
They say that God works in mysterious ways. Take all the good you can find in every situation ,no matter how painful that situation may be and build on it.
Jake
January 7, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Re: Zealot # 992: Allow me to clarify my statement about letting the sleeping son of a b… uh, I mean… dog… lie. If I were you I’d be thinking all kinds of un-Christian thoughts about what should happen to him, too. However, our Lord will be his judge when he meets Him above. Remember, “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” The smart thing to do is to avoid him at all cost and help Amy with the loss.
Also, unfortunately there may be little that can be done legal-wise due to the statute of limitations. If it will give you some peace of mind, look into what could be done. I predict nada.
From what you say of his “church,” it sounds like these people wish to live in the past like our muslim extremist brethren. No cable, restricted viewing, etc. It’s a shame you can’t find a website for his “flock” and post Amy’s story and expose her dad’s crime for all to see. I’d bet a few would be repulsed by his actions and find another church. Bottom line, if they left or not, in the backs of their minds they’d know their shepherd has some stains on his robes that have been made public. That can be a liability in the long run.
To simplify, don’t play his game. You cannot win attempting to attack him from moral high ground. As far as he’s concerned, even though his “hill” is lower that the ones around him, he still thinks he holds the highest ground because he refuses to acknowledge that there are higher hills around his. He eschews (sorry, lovesamerica – hates) today’s society. You may be able to use that to your advantage. The majority of society are loving, forgiving people, who normally will turn their backs on brutal charlatans whether they be politicians or religious leaders. More so of religious leaders. They are the ones who are supposed to be showing us the love of Jesus Christ, His understanding of our weaknesses, His attonement for our sins, the path to His Heart… not critism, judgement, and violence. “Love the sinner, hate the sin.”
In closing, it’s wonderful that you are attending different churches to find the right church family to get you going on your way. If I may, I’d like to recommend a denomination for you to try if one is in your area. Look for one called “First Christian Church – Disciples of Christ (DOC).” Years ago they and the Christian Church (CC) split over a disagreement as to whether or not to allow a piano to be donated to the church. Hence, the CC will not allow any instruments to be played in the church. DOC encourages “a joyful noise to the Lord” in all shapes and fashion. I always felt loved and welcomed at which ever congregation I attended while traveling. I would hope you may have the same blessing(s) as me.
See y’all later and may God Bless!
(squeaky shopping cart wheels growing fainter in the distance…)
January 7, 2007 at 8:49 pm
Zach, I’m really sorry that Amy has had such a sad past. She must be sweet and really special if YOU love her. I don’t know why, but I have to be honest, part of me still envies her. NOT HER PAST, but her future with you. I think she’s lucky to have you. I wish you both the very best. Her father sounds like a horrible person. And to think he stands up there and preaches the gospel. It makes me sick. I hope his other two daughters are able to escape his crazy rule. I don’t know why people would even stay there under those kinds of conditions. I’m glad you’re listening to Big Jake and DJ. They are really smart and are seldom wrong in any of their advice. I love ’em both.
I wasn’t going to do this, but, I am feeling crappy today and I don’t want to talk to anyone about it except you guys. Mike and I went to our favorite cafe for a cappachino after church today. His ex-girlfriend was there with another guy. She came right over and hugged Mike and then introduced herself to me. I wish she was uly, but she’s NOT. She’s one of those types I ALWAYS WANTED TO LOOK LIKE. It irritated me that she hugged Mike, too. How rude. HE’S MY BOYFRIEND NOW. I would never do that. Mike shrugged it off as nothing but inside I wanted to hit him. Just because he had something with her. I hate it. Man, it never stops for me. Just when you think things are going great, somebody does something to set you off. I wish she would just dissolve and go away. Life. It’s a treat, huh? My geen-eyed monster is nipping at me.
Other than meeting his ex and seeing how pretty and shapely she is, I’ve had a pretty good day.
Haha. Love you all.
January 7, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Re: lovesamerica # 995: So some might think she’s pretty… big whoop! She’s not a ten! If she had an abortion without including Mike’s input, that should tell you how self-centered she is. I don’t think Mike is that kind of guy that would fall for someone like that on a regular basis. He’s looking for a composite score of looks, brains, common sense, personality, etc. Guys that go for girls on their looks alone are fools. Mike’s no fool; he picked you.
Now, look at the catty side of things. If you wanted to flaunt yourself in front of the new girlfriend of an ex, wouldn’t you have done what she did? Was it calculated and intentional? Possibly. Did it have the desired affect she might have wanted? Yep! Don’t give her a victory by showing insecurity in your relationship.
Next, was it a casual hug like we give old acquaintances or a overtly “remember-what-we-had” hug? Or were you reading into it? OK, Mike “had something” with her in his past. Again, big whoop! Let it go. As we guys say, “Don’t worry if you weren’t the first, just make sure you’re the last.” If Mike still felt something for her I sincerely doubt he would waste time cultivating a relationship with you.
As for her looks, and this is a two way street, remember she (as we all) has two strong enemies – time and gravity.
Now, recall my first comment about her being selfish concerning Mike’s input on the pregnancy. That tells me she is more concerned with her looks than starting a family. Having talked at length with Mike on this subject, where do you think his goals lie? Career AND family. You gotta have the career to support a family. He’s on the right track, you’re on the right track, and both tracks arrive at the same destination if you’re going the same direction. Steady as she goes.
Last, are you really mad at Mike for “what they had” or are you mad at yourself for letting her get to you. Don’t be mad at either one of you. It’s just human nature to be protective and territorial. Rrrrh! Fffft! Sheath those claws and save your energy for the honeymoon! ; )
January 7, 2007 at 11:22 pm
DJ, I absolutely adore you. You’ve made me laugh at myself. The hug, well, it wasn’t a remember what we had hug, but it still bugged me. And she looked at me when she did it, so yeah, it was clculated and intentional… I knew what the b…. was doing. I just smiled at her like nothing was wrong, so sweet and pleasant…..so phoney! Haha. If she could’ve read my mind she’d have seen those claws!! You’re right…she’s selfish. It probably kills her to see Mike getting on with his life. She is awful pretty, though. Prettier than me. I asked Mike afterward how he could go from her to me…and he said “are you kidding, she’s got nothing on you! If I’d met you first, there would’ve been no her.” The guy definitely knows what to say, even if it IS crap. I DO have a mirror. I’ll get over my jealous fit in due time. I”m used to being insecure, so gaining confidence is a challenge for me. I know how men drool over these gorgeous babes. I really want her to be ugly. These perfect figured, perfect haired, perfect teethed, perfect complexioned women drive me crazy. As long as she doesn’t know she got to me, I’m cool. But, as you can see, she DID get to me. I’ll get over it. Until I see her again.
Thanks DJ. Your post made me laugh.
Love you.
January 7, 2007 at 11:43 pm
You adore me!? My word, girl! Take care of what you say or Big Jake will call me out at high noon for a demolition derby with shopping carts! I think I could take him, though… his cart has a stuck wheel and it goes in circles. Mine tracks straight ‘n’ true.
Good. I glad my post made you laugh. I was hoping in retrospect that you’d see through all the pettiness that was thrown at you. You say she’s awful pretty? I say she’s pretty awful.
Oh, next time you have “the pleasure of her company,” just look at her like she’s got something green stuck in her teeth when speaking to her. It’ll drive her NUTS trying to figure out what’s wrong with her “looks!” Bet it won’t be long ’til she goes running for a mirror to see what’s wrong. Yes, I can be a “basty l’il nastard” at times! I guess I’m just in tune with my feminine side. ; )
January 8, 2007 at 12:03 am
lovesamerica:
Amy, I said to myself, ” Big guy ,no sticking your two cents in for a while,ok?” And then I read your post #997 and crashed my shopping cart into the wall!
You wrote:
I asked Mike afterward how he could go from her to me…and he said “are you kidding, she’s got nothing on you! If I’d met you first, there would’ve been no her.” The guy definitely knows what to say, even if it IS crap. I DO have a mirror.
Look , Mike is with YOU! Ditto what DJ said. He wants the whole package not just another pretty face. Your Dad can attest to that !
And by the way, you make it sound that he isn’t sincere with his compliments. HE LOVES YOU!!!
YOU ARE THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WOMAN HE HAS EVER SEEN! Why don’t you get it?????
What would he gain by going with someone he had to be insincere with?
There is an old saying,Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You are insecure about yourself. That is why you don’t see what he sees.
He sees BEAUTY in you, true beauty.
Now ,stop thinking like he is soft soaping you and enjoy a compliment once in a while ,for cryin’ out loud!
Love,
Jake
DJ
DOG GONE IT , Lost my bad front wheel! Do you have a spare?
January 8, 2007 at 2:40 am
Big Jake, why would you say to yourself, no sticking your two cents in for awhile?? Let’s get something straight. I LOVE YOUR TWO CENTS. It might be two cents to you, but it’s a million bucks to me!! I value what you say. You and DJ are great advisors. Please don’t ever think I wouldn’t want your input. You both say just about the same thing, but you say it differently. And I look forward to reading what you write to everybody, not just me. I learn from what you say to others. I love you guys. Big Jake, please don’t ever stop from giving me your advice. Don’t leave me.
My New Year Resolution is a about kaput. I want to be self-reliant, but you know what?? That’s kind of lonely. Just like this thing with Mike’s ex giving him that hug. I could’ve held that in, but I actually felt better telling you guys about it, and DJ, you made me laugh. Because it IS pretty trivial. It’s petty to be irritated by it. But I am. I think that was nervey of her. I may not be so upset if she was ugly. I don’t want her touching him. She had her chance and she blew it. I have a feeling she wants to weasel her way back in, too. Maybe it’s in my head, but I don’t think so. She kept looking at us while we were there. I know women. I know how sneaky they can be. I don’t like someone like her as competition, either. Because it’s not fair ground. She’d probably use sex to lure him back, and that really freaks me out. I haven’t known Mike long enough to know how vulnerable he is. Most men arn’t the men of steel you are, Big Jake. Especially young ones. (No offense.) I can just see her coming on to him and if he crumbled, that would be it. It would be over. It’s one thing that he did that before I knew him, but now, I’d be hurt, I’d be crushed, but I’d send him on his way. I wanted to tell him that today but I didn’t. Maybe I should though, huh? What do you think? Do you think I should tell him if I ever find out he’s with her again, we’d be done?
I know you think he loves me, but, I don’t know. People say that so easily now. Maybe he does, maybe he thinks he does, maybe he doesn’t. Time will tell. But he don’t get me, until there’s a ring on my finger. He DOES know that because we’ve talked about it. Then we have miss Hot and Heavy out there that would do it with him….I’m just ramblimg. See what jealousy does? I just want her gone. Out of the state, away, or married so I don’t have to worry about her. I know, I’m a big baby with no confidence. But I’m trying so be kind. It’s just that I think Mike’s the one, and I don’t like sharing him. I hate the fact that he slept with that girl. He gets someone that’s never had anybody and I look at her and know he’s slept with her. I really hate that. It was one thing to know ABOUT her. But now that I’ve met her, I don’t like it. I wish Mike was a virgin. Then he really would be all mine someday. I really hate this. I guess I’m making too much out of it, but this world and all the immorality really ruins things for people. Well, I better go finish watching my movie. BE NICE…I’M STILL A KID.
Love ya
January 8, 2007 at 3:54 am
Re: Big Jake # 999: Sorry, but I don’t think the Wal-Mart cart wheels are interchangeable with A & P carts. Wal-Mart has the cheap plastic carts. Aren’t the A & P ones still all steel?
Re: lovesamerica # 1000: Wow! 1000! Is that a record or something? Relax, girlfriend! YOU are letting this get to you. Yes, have a heart-to-heart talk with Mike if that will make you feel better. Guys like to know WHY you’re looking at us like we’re the scum of the Earth! If you are having problems about the encounter with his ex, TALK TO HIM!!! Just be honest, direct, and use small words. ; )
I’m certain Mike will be happy to listen to your concerns and will probably say more of the “right crap” to calm you down. For Pete’s sake! He does love you, he is interested in only you, and if he does hurt you, let me and Big Jake know and we’ll hunt him down like a dog and feed his guts to him. PLEASE quit fretting over what you have no control over. As I’ve suggested to Zach, follow your heart. When in doubt, pray and talk to Father Paul.
OK, another guy saying about pretty girls: “Nice staircase, but the stairs don’t go all the way to the top.” i.e. Beauty, but no brains.
Now, settle down and go to bed. Don’t make me come up there! ; )
January 8, 2007 at 5:40 am
lovesamerica:
Amy,Amy ,Amy:
You have been going to church with Mike every Sunday since you met him. You have met his family and they think of you as someone special. His mother told him you were a jewel and he better not blow it(re-read your post #971). You think that he is the one. Why are you so insecure?
What happened to the tiger in you? He is your guy,fight for him if you have to. If his ex- girlfriend comes around ,grab his arm and don’t let go. Stake your claim.
He had a talk with you that you were his girl and he was your guy. Go over the ground rules. Are you both getting serious about the relationship? I’D SAY YOU ARE. Do you talk about the future,about getting married and raising a family? The more you discuss it, the more you reinforce the mutual goals you both have.
Did you have the talk with him about waiting until your wedding day? You should.
If you project insecurity about the relationship ,his ex-girlfriend will pick up on it and if she is still interested ,seek an opening to squeeze you out! Don’t let it happen.
Comparatively speaking ,you are a kid(compared to an old fogey like me or DJ!). In reality, you are a desirable 23 year old sophisticated lady.
Mike sees that and wants you for the person that you are today and the person you will become after he marries you.
Toughen up ,little girl. Time to claim what is yours and hold onto him!
Love,
Jake
January 8, 2007 at 1:53 pm
Big Jake, DJ, I said some really stupid things last night when I was talking to Mike on the phone. It got him irritated and then we got into it. I think we might be all done…I’m an idiot. But I’m too stubborn to call him. I won’t call him.
I’ll tell you more when I have time to write.
The tiger in me vented on the wrong person.
January 8, 2007 at 2:06 pm
lovesamerica:
Amy:
I just got back from the gym and I read #1003.
I don’t know what you said but if you were out of line, you have to apologize. This is a RELATIONSHIP ,it’s not a contest, it’s not a game. Pride or stubborness is immature and a
relationship killer.
In any interpersonal interaction if you are wrong,if you hurt someone, if you say something stupid it is up to you to do something to rectify the situation, the sooner ,the better.
Call him and apologize before it gets worse.
Jake
January 8, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Big Jake, I told him I needed assurance that things were done with him and his former babe. He said she could show up naked on his doorstep and he’d slam the door in her face. Then he said it shouldn’t matter what happened in the past because we should start from the day we met and go forward, and we should forget about the past. That’s fine for HIM, he’s the one with the past that needs forgetting. There’s no one for him to forget with me. So, while we were talking, I started thinking maybe there was more than this girl, so I asked him. He got irritated. He said we shouldn’t talk about things like that, that it doesn’t matter. I asked him if he had nothing to hide, he’d answer. He told me this conversation was turning into bullshit, and he said if I didn’t lose the high-school mentality that it would ruin everything. I said, maybe it’s already ruined. There was silence for awhile, and then he said, so, is that how you feel? And I said maybe. And he said, fine, there’s nothing more to say. And we hung up. I haven’t heard from him. We always talk in the mornings on my way to work. Nothing. And he hasn’t called me yet. So, he must be pretty pissed. I’m upset, but I’m still mad him. I’m not ready to apologize for anything because I don’t think I did anything but ask him something he shouldn’t be afraid to tell me. And something else, he has never even TRIED anything with me yet. We’ll make out a little bit, but he always stops. Don’t you think that’s weird? I must not turn him on or something. This whole thing is driving me crazy. Maybe I am too immature for this. You tell me.
January 8, 2007 at 3:17 pm
lovesamerica:
Hey dopey,
You really don’t get it ,do you?
YOU WROTE:
“And something else, he has never even TRIED anything with me yet. We’ll make out a little bit, but he always stops. Don’t you think that’s weird? I must not turn him on or something.”
He never tried anything because he loves you!
He found someone special and he doesn’t want to blow it.
You knew he had a past. Grow up!
I have been telling you he is ashamed of what happened in the past. He wants a second chance. He has been a real gentleman with you!
What do you want from him!
All he wants is your acceptance,your love and a future with you alone. Call and apologize.
Only you can know if you are too immature for this. You have what you want on a silver platter.You have to decide if you really want it.
Don’t blow it. Call him.
January 8, 2007 at 4:04 pm
Big Jake, if I don’t hear from him by this afternoon sometime, maybe I’ll call him. I do want him, but I’ve got attitude right now.
If he loves me so much, you’d think he’d call.
You say he doesn’t try anything because he loves me. Well, I find it funny that he can be all over his previous girlfriend, and he use to love her. I appreciate that he’s being a gentlemen but I would like to know that at least he THINKS about it with me.
January 8, 2007 at 4:56 pm
lovesamerica:
Amy ,
If you want to know “what he THINKS about it with you “,You will have to ask him. Commuication is better with words than with guessing games.
Look, this is the second time that someone has said that your thinking was “highschool”.
I recall that Zach also used that terminology a
while back. I care about you and I have to tell you that you are wrong in this situation.
You owe Mike an explanation and an apology.
Another reason he is such a gentleman with you is that he promised your father to take care of you. He sees that as a sacred promise.
This guy is hotter than a pistol and he is controlling himself because he loves and respects you. You don’t find that kind of self control these days.
Lose the attitude before you lose the relationship.
January 8, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Big Jake, I can’t help how I feel. I know Mike’s a good man. I don’t know how to explain how I feel. A woman would probably understand better than a man. I don’t want you to get mad at me. And I’m not going to ask him if ever thinks about sleeping with me. That’s embarrassing.
Yeah, I remember Zach saying that. Zach says a lot of things. He’s bold and passionate. But you can bet, if I was HIS girl, I’d have to fight him off with a stick.
January 8, 2007 at 7:21 pm
lovesamerica, I suggest you pull your head out of your ass and start listening to Jake. He’s being very fatherly to you. I’m not going to be. Let me put it to you this way. If I was dating you and you started drilling me about my past sex life, I’d probably tell you to hit the road. That is just what Mike called it. BULLSHIT. His past sex life is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. You say his ex is nervy? You don’t think asking him about that is? Why do you think you’re entitled to know anything about it? You two started the day you met. He’s respecting your wishes and he’s keeping his hands off you. Now you act like he doesn’t want you because he’s not attacking you. Jake’s right. What do you want from him? Men arn’t mind readers. Would you get mad if he DID try something? My guess is you probably would. Quit being such a flake. So an ex girlfriend came up and hugged him. So what? Relax. He’s not chasing after her. He probably will be if you don’t get your act together. And then you make the crack that you’d have to beat me off with a stick. Oh, I forgot. I’m the sex machine that never shuts off. Get this, please. I’d respect a girl if she made it clear hands off. I DO have self-control. Now grow up and call Mike before he thinks this over and forgets all about you, like I would.
January 8, 2007 at 9:04 pm
lovesamerica:
Amelia Louise:
Didn’t you tell us that Mike had clinical exams coming up the first or second week of January?
Don’t you think it is a little selfish and unfair to make him go through this stuff now?
If he cares about you,you gave him a big distraction to deal with at this crucial time.
He cares about you from what we all have seen.
Do you care about him? If you do ,now is the time for you to show it.
January 8, 2007 at 9:35 pm
Big Jake, Zach, I sent him a text message a couple of hours ago. I haven’t heard from him. I’m sick to my stomach and scared. I can’t wait to go home. Zach, he probably thought it over and he’s forgetting about me. Just like you would.
January 8, 2007 at 9:58 pm
lovesamerica:
You sent him “a text message”??!!!
You better call him.
January 8, 2007 at 10:00 pm
I can’t call him when he’s in class. I sent him a nice message. I apologized.
I’m really scared. I hope I didn’t mess this up. I’m an idiot.
January 9, 2007 at 11:27 am
Big Jake, everything is fine with Mike and me. He got my text message and was waiting for me when I got home from work. I got all wimpery as soon as I saw him. I’ll never behave like that again. Mike suggested we go back to our cafe, grab something to eat, and start yesterday all over again. I love him.
I re-read some of yesterday’s posts and I sound like such an awful brat. I was so jealous. Just thinking abut him with that girl made me made me not think straight. I don’t like thinking about that because it hurts me picturing him with her. If I could have my way, he would never have even kissed anyone but me.
After we ate we came back to my place and then went for a walk. We walked into Father Paul’s church and just sat there and held hands. Mike told me someday we would get married there. That made me cry. We prayed and asked God to forgive us for hurting each other. I felt so good after I left there. I don’t ever want to hurt Mike or invade his privacy like that again. I realize what happened in the past can only hurt me if I let it. I know he feels terrible that he can’t change what he did. God forgives us, so I forgive him. Mike forgave me for being so immature.
Before I foget, while we were talking at the cafe, I did ask Mike if it ever crossed his mind about being with me “that way”. He looked at me funny, and just said Duh, eat your sandwich. We both laughed. He’s so sweet. He said he tries to not dwell on those thoughts, because thoughts become actions, and he’d never want to do anything that would degrade me. You were right about something else, too, Jake. He said he really liked my Dad and he wouldn’t want to lose his trust and respect. He said he’d want someone to treat our daughter honorably. That made me feel very safe with him, and it actually made me love him even more.
I apologize for ranting like a baby yesterday. I was very,VERY jealous. And Zach, your very blunt response scared me to death. I couldn’t get my cell phone out fast enough!
I love you both. Thank you.
January 9, 2007 at 1:15 pm
lovesamerica:
Amy:
Good morning!
Mike is a classy guy,and he is all yours!
I’ll let you in on a little secret. Guys want their women to be just a little bit posessive of them,just a little bit.
You marked your territory so to speak. He feels the same way about you.
I also think it is significant that you both went to church . You know his intentions.
You both have the same destination in mind!
Now you are talking about getting married there some day.
you wrote:
He said he really liked my Dad and he wouldn’t want to lose his trust and respect.
He said he’d want someone to treat our daughter honorably. That made me feel very safe with him, and it actually made me love him even more.
Sounds like Mike is 27 going on 40. Reminds me of myself at that age.
Love,
Jake
January 9, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Big Jake, how does it feel to be right all the time?? Mike IS a very classy guy. I’ve been thanking God all morning for him. It’s funny, but after last night, I just feel so much in love with him. What we have is very special. I know I’m going to marry him now. I’m proud to be his girl. And, just to let you know, when I told Mike I was acting so poorly because I was jealous, I could see in his eyes he liked it. He smiled.
We’ve been going to his church across town on Sundays, but he knows how much I adore Father Paul, so we’re going to start going both places. I did talk to F. Paul about volunteer work and he was so happy he could hardly contain himself. He’s going to put me on schedule and get back to me in a few days.
That song you posted, What a difference a day makes. That is so true. One day can be awful, and the next day, beautiful.
Know what I’m happy about the most? I found me a mini-Jake.
Love you
January 9, 2007 at 5:29 pm
lovesamerica, sorry I was brutal yesterday. It seemed like all of Jake’s coaxing wasn’t jarring your brain, so I thought I’d give it a kick start. Glad things worked out. I knew it would. To be truthful, I never would’ve forgotten about you and I knew Mike wasn’t going to, either. No man ever forgets about a women he thinks he’s falling in love with. I just wanted to scare you into calling him.
Mike sounds like a class act. Be smart with him. Most guys today arn’t like he is. Most girls today arn’t like you are. It’s good to know people like you two are still out there.
Reading your posts makes me wish I would’ve lived my life differently. I was pretty wild. I’ve hurt a lot of women in my life, and I’m not proud of it. Did some crazy things. Made some bad decisions. And as you all know, I’m not as perfect as Mike or Jake, but I can tell you this. No one ever loved or cherished their woman any more than I did Caroline. I would’ve done anything for her, and part of me died with her. No one will ever replace what we had. I love Amy, but it’s a different kind of love than it was with Caroline. I still think about her everyday, and I probably will until the day I die. That’s just the way it is. I don’t tell Amy things like that, because it would hurt her. She wouldn’t understand. I don’t even understand it. Caroline was just it for me. She will always be the love of my life.
Jake, I’m seeing the therapist with Amy on Thursday. I’m hoping Amy will show her her back. I know DJ said the chance of doing anything legal was slim to none. I just want to see what the therapist thinks.
I’ll let you know what happens.
Later,
Zach
January 10, 2007 at 3:18 am
lovesamerica:
for Amy and Mike
and
Amy and Zach
Another of my Frank Sinatra favorites
ALL THE WAY
When somebody loves you
It’s no good unless he loves you – all the way
Happy to be near you
When you need someone to cheer you – all the way
Taller than the tallest tree is
That’s how it’s got to feel
Deeper than the deep blue sea is
That’s how deep it goes – if its real
When somebody needs you
It’s no good unless he needs you – all the way
Through the good or lean years
And for all the in between years – come what way
Who know where the road will lead us
Only a fool would say
But if you’ll let me love you
It’s for sure I’m gonna love you – all the way, all the way
January 10, 2007 at 11:53 am
Jake, thanks for the song. You must love music. I do, too. I’ve never been in to some of the songs you post, I don’t even think I’ver heard some of them. But the lyrics are nice.
Zach. You are so dear. I can almost feel your suffering when you talk about Caroline. We all know how you felt about her. We also know that God never intended anyone to live alone and your life must go on with Amy. It’s a different kind of love, but it’s still love. It’s seems to me that the love you have for Amy is mainly protective. She needs that, and God chose you for her because you fill the bill. I’ve never heard any man talk about his wife the way you’ve talked about Caroline. I hope Mike grows to love me like that. When I think about you, I picture you gruff and tuff and all that, but I also see a vulnerable and sensitive side. Not too many women (or men) ever get to see that, do they? If you haven’t shown Amy that side, you should. Women like to comfort men. It’s probably our maternal nature. I don’t mean for you to tell her your deep feelings about Caroline, but let her see that you hurt once in awhle. That sensitive side is loveable and sexy. I know I’m young and don’t have much experience with men, but, when I read your post, it made me want to hug you. (Quite fankly, I’ve ALWAYS wanted to hug you!)
Thanks again for scaring me into reality. Jake called what I was doing a guessing game, and I don’t want my relationship with Mike to ever be a game. I’m so blessed to have all three of you, Jake, DJ, and you Zach.
Hope you all have a great day. I love you all
January 11, 2007 at 2:18 am
He’s baaaaack! Sorry folks, but I had a last-notice training trip sprung on me; been gone since Monday, just got back tonight.
Amy, glad to see you finally contacted Mike. CALL NEXT TIME LIKE WE TOLD YOU!!! Text messaging is soooo high school. ; ) Sorry, couldn’t resist. It’s better face-to-face because you can get certain feedback instead of reading into a silence or lack of response. I guess I’m too old school. I don’t like the electronic age as much as most. I consider a cell phone a leash. When I leave the house, it means I’m speading time for myself and don’t wish to be intruded upon. When I do make contact, I want to see the person’s face. Especially a loved one.
I’m a big fan of the Canadian rock band Rush. Some lines from one of their songs say, “Just between us, I think it’s time for us to recognize the differences we sometimes fail to show. Just between us, I think it’s time for us to realize the spaces in between leave room for you and I to grow.” Be connected, but not clingy. Be a part, but not too possessive.
OK, I’ll shut up, now…
January 11, 2007 at 11:42 am
DJ, Thank you for your input. I don’t want you to ever shut up. Call next time I’m told to???…hopefully there won’t be a next time. I hope I learned my lesson. I was childish and I know it. I never knew I was that jealous. That’s not good and I have to work on it.
It’s not uncommon for Mike and I to text message each other because I can’t always take personal calls at work. He can’t take calls in classes or during clinicals, so this works best for us. It’s not as cold as it may sound. I’m not clingy, but I guess I am a little possessive. I’m still fighting with feelings of wanting to smash that girl in the face…haha..when I really think about it, I want to smash Mike too, but that’s just my own insecurity. I’d never do it and I’ll smile and be fake and act like she doesn’t bother me if we run in to her again. Mike has always liked this cafe where we saw her and has gone there for years. I think she wanted to run in to him. He’s quite a catch and she probably knows she blew it and wants to win him back. I’m sure she’s compared herself to me, because that’s what we girls do when we have our sites on the same man. And I’m sure she probably doesn’t think I’m much competition. It’s really all up to Mike, but I feel he would choose me. I’m the marrying kind, and that’s where he’s at. In our talks, I told him, he will only ever get one chance with me. Screw up, and she better be worth it. And I really do mean that. I’ll never put up with a cheat.
Big Jake, are you tired of me? I miss you.
Gotta get ready for work.
Love ya.
January 11, 2007 at 2:11 pm
lovesamerica:
Amy,
Tired of you? Are you kidding? How are you doing today?
Just got back from the gym and am getting ready for work.
After all that stuff last week you should feel rock solid with Mike.Don’t go smashing him if a girl looks at him now!
By the way ,go get a cd of Frnk Sinatra’s greatest hits. It is a more sophisticated
style of music . It is the ’50’s-60’s “rat pack cool genre”. I used to think it was old fogey music.I guess it’s an acquired taste. You might also want to check out Dean Martin.
Love ,
Jake
January 11, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Angel and Red Dawn:
Are you still with us?
Haven’t heard from you in a while.
Miss you guys!
Jake
January 11, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Big Jake, I don’t like it when you don’t post. Since you told us about some of your health conditions, I worry. I don’t want to lose you.
And…Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin?? I don’t know. I talked with my Dad a few minutes ago and I asked him if he liked their music. He said some of it. He asked me why I would be interested in them. I said I hear a lot of old songs on the radio. He said they have some good classics, but he’d be surprised if I liked them.
Tell you what, I’ll get Frank S. and Dean M. You get Nikelback and Red Hot Chili Peppers. Tell me what you think of them.
Talk to you soon, and I’m having a wonderful day. Hope you are, too.
January 11, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Jake, I wasn’t lieing to my Dad. I really have heard some of their songs, (well Frank’s) on the radio. They just played NY, NY(I think that’s the name of it) before Christmas… and I liked that one. Some of the people around here were singing along with him so it must’ve been popular.
Love ya.
January 12, 2007 at 4:43 am
lovesamerica:
re#1025 Deal. I’ll get Nikelback and Red Hot Chile Peppers ,you get Frank Sinatra & Dean Martin.
I don’t know what it is . I just get images in my head about you and then comes the music.
Do you remember my post #884?
“..pardon me for musing and jumping ahead
to your Wedding night ,you all dressed up in your beautiful Wedding gown,Mike in his tuxedo
dancing with you to one of my favorite Frank Sinatra songs….
“The Way You Look Tonight”
Some day, when I’m awfully low,
When the world is cold,
I will feel a glow just thinking of you…
And the way you look tonight.
Yes you’re lovely, with your smile so warm
And your cheeks so soft,
There is nothing for me but to love you,
And the way you look tonight.
With each word your tenderness grows,
Tearing my fear apart…
And that laugh that wrinkles your nose,
It touches my foolish heart.
Lovely … never, ever change.
Keep that breathless charm.
Won’t you please arrange it ?
’cause I love you … just the way you look tonight.
Mm, mm, mm, mm,
Just the way you look to-night.
[ http://www.azlyrics.com ]
Have a great day!
January 12, 2007 at 11:49 am
Big Jake:
Here is my song to you.
You’be Got a Friend
Lyrics: When you’re down and troubled
And you need some loving care
And nothing, nothing is going right
Close your eyes and think of me
And soon I will be there
To brighten up even your darkest night
You just call out my name
And you know wherever I am
I’ll come running to see you again
Winter, spring, summer or fall
All you have to do is call
And I’ll be there
You’ve got a friend
If the sky above you
Grows dark and full of clouds
And that old north wind begins to blow
Keep your head together
And call my name out loud
Soon you’ll hear me knocking at your door
You just call out my name
And you know wherever I am
I’ll come running to see you
Winter, spring, summer or fall
All you have to do is call
And I’ll be there
Ain’t it good to know that you’ve got a friend
When people can be so cold
They’ll hurt you, and desert you
And take your soul if you let them
Oh, but don’t you let them
You just call out my name
And you know wherever I am
I’ll come running to see you again
Winter, spring, summer or fall
All you have to do is call
And I’ll be there
You’ve got a friend
Love ya…and P.S. (Strangers with weird names and jokes make me nervous..know what I mean??)
January 12, 2007 at 1:58 pm
lovesamerica:
Yeah, I was “curious” about that posting too.
Did you start with the volunteer work with Father Paul?
Have a great day!
Love,
Jake
January 12, 2007 at 2:09 pm
Jake, no I haven’t started yet. I’m going to talk to him this weekend. I baked some cookies the other night and took a big plate over for him while they were still warm. He’s the sweetest man. He still hasn’t asked me if I’d be interested in being a catholic and that impresses me.
Don’t freak me out about the new comer!!
Love ya.
January 12, 2007 at 5:37 pm
Big Jake, I’ve been thinking about you. All the songs you put on here, the ones for Mike and I, you must be a very romantic man. I was reading the words to “the way you look tonight” and they touch my heart. I know that song, so when I was reading the lyrics, I was singing it. I like to think that Mike thinks about me that way. At least I hope he does. Have you always been this way, or did you grow into it? If you were a young man, and I knew you personally, you’d probably be able to steal me away from Mike if you wanted to. Not that Mike’s not romantic, because he is in a “reserved” way. I guess that’s how I’d put it. You just seem to know what women like to hear. Carmen is lucky.
January 13, 2007 at 7:03 am
lovesamerica:
Amy ,you asked:
All the songs you put on here, the ones for Mike and I, you must be a very romantic man…
Have you always been this way, or did you grow into it?
I’d say that you are born with the appreciation of romance in your soul but you need to develop it .That comes with age and experience. If I would have known at 23 what I know now, I would have spent alot more time smelling the roses instead of rushing by them.
I have told you this before , you remind me so much of my wife at your age. I was alot like Mike except that he has it more together than I did at his age.
Romance has to be worked at by both of you. Always make time to be together. You are a romantic. Mike is too, but he will have alot on his plate with school and his career. YOU have to keep the “romance candles” flickering .Remember to make time to be together.
Love,
Jake
January 13, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Jake, thanks for the words of wisdom. I’ll always try to keep the sparks flying. I don’t ever want to lose the butterflies in my stomach when Mike kisses me. I see so many woman at work that seem unhappy with their husbands and they complain about them all the time. They must’ve loved them once, so I don’t know what happens to people. I don’t ever want that to happen to Mike and me. When I know he’s coming over I get all funny inside. I can’t wait to see him.
You said we should always make time to be together. Mike thinks like you, because he says no matter how much studying he has to do, that at least ONE night a week we’ll have a “date night”. Even if it’s just taking a walk and grabbing something to eat. I told him that’s fine with me. I don’t need a guy to dote on me all the time. But I do want some doting, and I do want to talk to him everyday.
What do you think about this. Mike is swamped with studying. He told me he’d be studying all weekend. That’s fine. Some of my friends asked me to go “clubbing” tonight. (It’s Sat. morning now). I told that to Mike last night. He told me he wasn’t going to tell me what to do, but he wished I wouldn’t do that. He said if I want to go to clubs, that he’d take me. He’d prefer me not to go to those places without him. He doesn’t like it. I don’t really care about going, so I won’t, but do you think it’s right for him to feel like that? I don’t understand why he’d have a problem with it because I wouldn’t do anything wrong. I’m trustworthy.
Mike is thinking about going into Neurology. He’s talking with a Neurologist he’s met. He said the guy has a practice with 3 other Dr.s and that he only ptactices 8 months a year. He’s got a family, and he said the Dr. takes a month or two off at a time to be with his family. I guess they go on some great vacations. Mike really likes this Dr. and the field. Mike also told me that that Dr. told him he needed the right woman to be a Dr. Mike told him he had one….hmmmm….that must be me! I squeezed his hand when he told me that. I’m excited about the future with him. Buying a home, having babies. I can’t wait.
Have a great weekend. Love ya.
January 13, 2007 at 4:08 pm
lovesamerica:
Amy-
The club scene is for unattached singles in my opinion. That is not you. You have reached another level. You should be going to clubs with Mike. And the level ofsophistication of the club “club”should be going up. You should be going with him to bistros ,jazz clubs ,romantic places for couples,not “meet markets”. You know better than I do about what goes on at these clubs. Any guy who really cares about his girl would’nt like her to go “girls night out”to clubs. You wouldn’t like it if HE was going to clubs with unattached guys.
Regarding Nurologists ,have Mike look up Dr. Arnold Gold .He is chief of Pediatric Neurology at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in New York.
He also heads up a foundation dedicated to assisting the development of caring dedicated doctors ,the Dr. Arnold Gold Foundation .
January 13, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Re: lovesamerica # 1033: OK, there you go. Guys have little moments of insecurity , too. You got wound around the axle about meeting his ex, he’s nervous about YOUR intentions of wanting to go to “the meat market” with the girls. As Big Jake said, bars/clubs are for singles, bistros and coffee shops are for couples. And Mike’s reaction tells me HE knows what goes on in the clubs.
And to our most recent “visitor” to this forum, though this is a public forum open to all to comment, please find some other chat room to air your childish humor. I, for one, do not appreciate it.
January 13, 2007 at 7:08 pm
Big Jake & DJ, thanks for your comments. I don’t want to go “clubbing”. My friends asked me because Mike is studying this weekend for some critical clinical exams he’s up against in the next couple of weeks. He has a room at his parents house that he stays in when he needs to study hard, and he likes to be left alone. After I told him about the club thing, he did suggest that I could come out to his parents and sit there and watch a movie while he’s studying. He told me he’d come out once in a while to check on me and give me a hug, so I told him I’d love to do that. I’m not interested in meeting anyone else. The club thing was just something to do. I like to go just to mingle and listen to the music, but I’d rather go with Mike if I ever go again. I want to be a good girlfriend. You made a good point, Jake. I’d be mad if he went out with a bunch of guys to a club. Didn’t think about that before. I’m dumb.
DJ, thanks for asking the new visitor to stop it. I have a feeling he/she wants to embarrass me. If you’re reading this, I’m asking you nicely to please quit doing it. Thanks.
January 14, 2007 at 12:53 am
The “visitor” was trying to embarass anyone who read the “jokes,” but only embarassed him/herself by showing their immaturity.
Other people’s kids…
January 14, 2007 at 3:53 pm
No, I am not the “site sheriff.” I knew I was taking a chance at exposing myself to your “wrath” with my comments and you only proved me correct.
This “(t)ypical (A)merican” has been responding in kind to the folks that wished to continue posting on this site, even though we’ve been off subject for quite some time, now. We have our own style of humor. If we wanted jokes, we’d go to any of the innumerable sites where such material can be found.
Dear Abby/Big Jake? True. “We” Americans are loving, caring, people who will provide assistance any way we can to anyone that requests it. If the subject of this forum is not for you, as you stated above, please move on. Just because we have this close bond does not make us boring, prudish, or a loser. We merely have different views on life than you. Your response of “(t)ypical american” tells me that you are just one of the many in the world that hates America and what we represent.
If I offended you with my chastising of your humor, then I humbly apologize. I’m one to walk out on thin ice and poke grizzly bears with short sticks. I often will say things that a lot of people feel hesitant to voice. Thus I was fairly certain that my comments echoed the feelings of my fellow groupmembers that you so disdain.
As for your “thoughts” to lovesamerica, she’s a lot smarter than to let her relationship with her beau be affected by your “advice.”
January 14, 2007 at 7:26 pm
DJ :
You may not be the “site sherriff” but you are our resident “Texas Ranger”.
Here’s to you,Johnny Reb!
Regards,
Jake
January 14, 2007 at 8:11 pm
Big Jake, DJ, I had a wonderful day yesterday. Mike and I went to Mass Sat. night. I went out to his parents and he spent several hours studying. I had some great conversation with his parents. They’re very smart and very nice people. His Dad likes to kid around. He’s talked with my Dad on the telephone a few times. I didn’t know they had done that. My Dad never said anything to me about it. They hit it off real well when he was here.
I fell asleep on their couch. Mike woke me up around 2:00am and we went for a walk. It was dark and cold, but I’ll never forget that walk. It was so nice. We talked about all kinds of things. Mike really opens up to me. We’re getting very close. We talked a lot about God and heaven and world events. It’s an exciting time to be alive.
I had the feeling our visitor was gunning for me. It hurt when I read it, but then, I thought, he’s anti-American. He’s the enemy. And I’d never take advice from a smelly foreigner with a shit fettish.
Love you BJ & DJ. You’re the smartest guys I know. You’ve been right on everytime you’ve told me anything. And I know Mike will never dump me.
January 14, 2007 at 9:59 pm
Re: Big Jake # 1040: Wal, thet’s mahtie nahce o’ yuh t’ say, neighbor. (huh-yuck!)
Re: lovesamerica # 1041: Glad to hear you had a nice time with Mike’s family. Yep, you’ve got a keeper. If I’m one of the smartest guys you know, you might want to get out a little more. ; ) I do OK for advice in your eyes, but I’m sure there are others that could do as well or better than I.
January 16, 2007 at 10:15 pm
Big Jake, DJ, Zach,
It’s getting harder and harder for me to log on here. I feel sad, because I hate to lose you.
I’ve enjoyed knowing all of you. Big Jake, you’re a sweetheart. I’ll never forget you and all you’ve done to change my life. I really do wish I could give you a big hug. You are so special to me.
DJ, you’re sense of humor is priceless, and you really are one of the smartest people I know. Thanks for all the help you’ve given me.
Zach, my internet heart throb. I hope you find everything you’re looking for in Nebraska and I’m sure your future with Amy will be awesome.
I love you all.
January 17, 2007 at 12:34 am
DJ — so sorry for the lack of postings — things have been really busy over in my corner of the Cocktail Hour — I will return however! And soon. Until then, to all of you — peace, love and patience!
P.S. I’m doing my best to delete the offensive messages, but it’s hard to keep up sometimes.
January 17, 2007 at 12:35 am
Re: lovesamerica # 1043: Like I said a while back, all we have to do is start posting on a subject on the site that has a small number of postings. You’re having trouble because there are sooo many posts burdening the down-load process on this link. The choice is ours. As Big Jake suggested, all you have to do is cut ‘n’ paste any words of wisdom from here and move on. I always look to see who’s posted and read all the new stuff. Do that and see how fast things down-load.
January 17, 2007 at 1:51 am
Go to “Pat Robertson says millions will die.”
REALLY FAST DOWNLOAD!
January 31, 2007 at 7:40 pm
I’m not sure which ‘Nazarene’ church Amy’s family is associated with. It does not sound like the one I am affiliated with http://www.nazarene.org/, which is the one that Big Jake refrenced in his post regarding the beliefs of the denomination.
The church of the Nazarene does not dictate a specific dress code for women, nor do we prohibit television in the home or the listening to rock music. We do have a strong stance against the use of tobacco and alcohol. However, I am not sure why the doctrinal statement would be construed as ‘cult like’ as it is consistent with the doctrinal views of other Wesleyan (Methodist) denominations.
The denomination did go through a schism in the late 1950’s, early 1960’s due to issues related to the strict rules described by Zealot. Many groups that split away formed the “Conservative Holiness Movement.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Holiness_Movement
It may be that Amy’s dad is affiliated with the Pilgrim Nazarene church (http://www.pilgrimnazarene.org/) of this movement.
February 2, 2007 at 4:48 am
CV: Thanks for the clarification. I was confused by what zealot related regarding Amy’s father’s church rules and mistakenly incorporated that into what I read on the Church’s website. While the Church of the Nazarene may be strict regarding abstinance from alcohol and tobacco it is by no means cultlike. The same can not be said about Amy’s father’s church. THAT is cultlike.
Again ,thanks for the clarification.
Jake
February 16, 2007 at 2:56 am
Hey guys!
I’m back and so glad you all are still around!
Wow!
lovesamerica said way back there–
“The picture of Mel and that girl…sorry. That’s not the one. I guess you’d have to watch the movie. The girl I remind Mike of is the one Mel married in the beginning of the movie and then the English killed her. The rats. She’s pretty, but she’s plain. The french girl he had a fling with is definitely hubba hubba. I WISH that would’ve been the one I reminded him of.”
I always thought that Mel’s wife in Braveheart (NOT the French girl) was one of the most beautiful women I’ve ever seen. Certainly not plain at all. The beginning of the movie, where he falls in love with her, is so unbelievably romantic. Congratulations on your new committed relationship. I’m sure Valentines was very special for you this year.
Good to see everyone doing well–hello again to all!
February 16, 2007 at 4:23 am
Red Dawn:
Wow Did you get lost or something? I came back to get you. We have camped out at the following thread:
Go to “Pat Robertson says millions will die.”
Action packed love stories,drama,life events,
thrills ,chills and happy endings galore.
Great to have you back!
Jake
April 8, 2007 at 5:05 am
Thank you all for an evening’s read of extraorindary proportions. There clearly is hope for this nation if the brains on this site keep thinking and talking. Its already April…none of u know me, none of u care, but you are all missed. Hope all are okay.
April 8, 2007 at 7:13 am
msdreamalone:
I’m glad you enjoyed your evening’s read with us. We do care and we are still here.
Some of us are still active posters,some only check in once in a while to stay in touch. Please feel free to read and comment because you ,yes you, are one of us and part of what gives hope for our nation ,our culture and yes ,ourselves as Americans.
Thanks for being with us.
Jake
April 8, 2007 at 8:06 pm
Technology being what it is, I wasted an hour writing a post not realizing my computer had disconnected. That said, I wanted to respond to Post 314 and will try to be brief and not offend anyone here by what I have to say.
I stumbled (Divine providence aside) on this site after Googling a medical question…’cocktail’ brought the site up and the title had me reading the political comments.
I was married for 5 yrs until fall ’06 to a middle eastern muslim. I’ve known, read and studied Islam for years prior. I came from parents of 2 different religions and neither were practiced. When I chose one as an adult to follow, I had to convert and was still treated as a half breed.
Islam teaches that both monotheistic religions, other than itself (!) are to be respected and marrying people of either is allowed. However if you sit and speak with muslims and break that down, they will tell you all current day religions are FALSE, after the Quran was completed and given to mankind everything was obsolete. All modern religions are distortions from the original
words given to their respective messengers and people are B O R N muslim–it is our parents and their delusionary beliefs that take us from the ‘true path’ of the ‘true religion.’
When I met my former husband thru work which I cannot and will not discuss, he proposed after 6 months and I made it clear I could not have kids. He said he didnt want kids, he had a son, he wanted a wife who ‘understood him’ and would be a mother to his son. We seemd to understand one another, he didnt present himself as a relgious fanatic, was educated and verbally seemed to understand life in the US would mean some adjustments in terms of his work expectations. I was ready for the difficulties of supporting him through the emotional and financial adjustment. However, within 3 months of arrival he discovered the wild world of western life and found Imams willing to give him permission to do as he liked because his wife couldnt have kids. He used religion, as many today do, to find a loophole to support a lifestyle that would be considered immoral by any relgious standard. 2 orders of protection were issued on my behalf, is all I will say. He didnt want a divorce, I was full supporting him, as I had committed to doing, as his wife, love, companion, etc. I’m not writing for your pity, I’;m writing as someone who was in it, knows it and got out alive. Its not about a bad marriage, its about truth and how we in this country are NOT grasping the enormity of a lie parading itself as a valid and legitimate word of G-d. Its not about women being disrespected, its about disrespecting any humanity that is not Islamic. As women are regarded as ‘weaker’ they are to be protected; but its not the protection of compassion, its a paternalistic and arrogant supervision that allows abuse, domestic and public.
Women have brought alot of misery on themselves, in my opinion, with shameless behaviour (i’ll say no more than that, just watch Tv, videos or go online) Women and I think men, want partnerships that acknowledge differences but complement and support. Manipulating the vulnerabilities of our differences to gain power and control over the other, is what defeats a relationship, always.
I just want to say that I have a long road ahead of me in front of G-d to clean the filth from me spiritually and that’s my focus now. If you have children, pick a religion, whatever it is and teach it to your kids in a spirit of unity in your home. And know that for every smile we see from muslims parading around announcing prophecies to do with ‘the religion of peace’ there’s a knife waiting for our throats as much as there’s the opportunity to hear the words of conversion.
April 8, 2007 at 8:29 pm
Re: msdreamalone # 1052: Thank you for posting your personal history of dealing with Islam directly. We need to hear more accounts of the way it REALLY is when it comes to what muslims say to our faces and what they really mean and will do to further their faith and, mainly, their perverted cause.
As you’ve most likely noticed, this “thread,” as we call them, is slow to download. Watch for new posts in the margin of the home page. We’re in the process of choosing a new thread to continue our interaction. Most of us post in the evening hours after work. What say, Big Jake? Where to?
April 8, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Quick footnote, if my 2nd post might in any cause the site problems, delete it, I wont be offended, I know the mindset of the subject under discussion.
Best to all
January 11, 2008 at 4:08 am
When Muhammad was a child he was nursed by a Bedouin woman. During this time he had an experience with “two men in white raiment”. Here is W. M. Watt’s translation of Ibn Ishaq’s biography of Muhammad, page 36: “…two men in white clothes came to me with a golden basin full of snow. They took me and split open my body, then they took my heart and split it open and took out from it a black clot which they flung away. Then they washed my heart and my body with that snow until they made them pure.” This event deeply disturbed the Bedouins and they returned Muhammad to his mother. Here is the story told by Muhammad’s wet-nurse, related in Guillaume’s translation of Ibn Ishaq, page 72: “His [Muhammad’s friend’s] father said to me, “I am afraid that this child has had a stroke, so take him back to his family before the result appears. ….. She [Muhammad’s mother] asked me what happened and gave me no peace until I told her. When she asked if I feared a demon had possessed him, I replied that I did.”
Note that Muhammad’s wet-nurse believed he had been possessed by a demon. One would expect some degree of attachment between the two, since she nursed him, so it is extraordinary that she would return him in those circumstances: something very troubling actually occurred. Muhammad was clearly either touch in the head or touched by an angel, the kind that got the boot from heaven. I must tell you all that I spent years in Baptist school and I do believe there is a God and that God is the creator of the universe. I no longer subscribe to that particular denomination because quite frankly, the people I encountered then were easily as insane and deluded as Muhammad was. I also believe that the majority of churchgoers running around these days are NOT Christians in any sense of the word. Many are afraid to even open a Quran, yet all of the research I have done into other religions, beliefs and even ancient myths seems to back up Biblical scripture. I’m not saying that the Quran is the same as the Bible; far from it. There are however, accounts of the same heavenly as well as fallen angels, for example, found in almost every belief system in the world. You just have to recognize their aliases, and there are a lot of them. Regardless of where you stand and how strong your faith is, research is a must for a true understanding of human history. Thanks for the chance to ramble a bit.
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December 26, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Capt. Lillypad,
the more one learns/study of other “religions” the more one understands and accepts the truth/validity of the Bible as being the only Word of God available to man. Anything else is simply a false teaching/doctrine used by Satan to fool us….
June 23, 2009 at 10:44 am
As the scripture say’s in the holy bible there is no other name under the sun given to us which can save human race,its only juses christ the only son of the almighty God,you can believe or not but the fact remins whoever believes will be save and whoever refuses will be judge period.religious people have been there since the creation of the world,its the same religious people who crusified the lord and saviour Juses christ,and after 3 hours there was darkness all over the world,thats indication that he was true the lord and God.no any human can have done such a thing which happed.as i know the devil is a liar,he confines people in the religions,wasting their time instead of knowing the will of God their creator,as the things are approching to an end of the human race let us all focus our ears and eyes to the events in the midleast region.final tribulation will occur there.so be careful and have your ticket of enternatiy,to heaven on that eventfull day and time.
October 22, 2009 at 5:01 pm
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